Then what is it about? The US wanting to dominate and control the world's second largest supply of Oil seems like as great a theory as anything.

- wil

If the purpose was to obtain the oil, the quickest, cheapest and easiest way would be to ignore/remove the UN sanctions and simply purchase it. Very quick, clean and tidy. US tankers could be pulling into Iraq by the end of the week.

France and Germany are Iraq's largest trading partners in the lucrative (for F&G) oil for food program. As for thinking outside the box, have you wondered what Germany and France may have been selling Iraq for the past decade that they would be less than eager for the world to know about?
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Rob

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Too right Paul. Thomas, Wil, and everyone else....do you really think he's just gonna welcome the weapons inspectors into his top secret weapon developing places? He's got more sense than that! I'm feeling a bit of deja-vous of the WWII start, as well as the Gulf. Everyone just keeps saying "give him more time"...but thats exactly what he wants. It gives him time to build his weapons up even more, just like Hitler did in WWII

Everyone is going to have their own opinion on this...but IMO, he's a cruel, lying bugger, and he needs to be sorted out!

Andy (mod)
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I'm not sure about anyone else but I watched Colin Powell's presentation where he provided substantial evidence to backup the claims made by the US and Britain. He showed satellite pictures of the same factory/plant on two different dates but in the second, the plant had totally disappeared. Now unless you've had a serious bump on the head it doesn't take much to work out that things are being moved around. Saddam isn't stupid. If he was he wouldn't still be in power. I imagine he was moving and hiding things long before the inpectors arrived.

All I've heard so far in this thread from the people with an opposite view to me are unsubstantiated claims, superflous preaching and hypocracy :)

I'm not going to tell anyone else they are wrong in what they believe - everyone has the right to make up their own mind. It's just a shame that people try to force others to believe what they believe to build up some strength to their cause.

Case adjourned.

Exactly how I feel.

Andy (mod)
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Paul has a good point here. The UN resolution requires disclosure. Right now Saadam is playing a shell game with anthrax, sarin, etc and the UN weapons inspectors. The UN resolution is a requirement for Iraq to stop playing hide the ball, escort the inspectors to any weapons of mass distruction and provide them with any and all documentation. The burden of proof is upon Iraq to demonstrate compliance with the UN resolution, not for the UN weapons inspectors to "find proof".
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You talking about Bush or Saddam?

- wil

Sadam

Andy (mod)
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I think he knew, he's obviously just been touching up on his satirical humor, outlining his inability to provide a substantiated argument.

Well said....

http://story.news.yahoo.com/..._on_go_pr_wh/us_iraq

I recommend you to read the following paper by the Worldwatch Institute. Read about Rumsfeld's visits to Baghdad. As for the claims that France and Germany profit most from the embargo: not quite right, lifting the embargo would result in a sharp drop of oil prices and a negative impact on US producers.

Here's the paper, I do hope it is sufficiently substantiated

=> http://www.globalpolicy.org/...2/1122worldwatch.htm

Andy, check your facts -- Saddam is spelt Saddam.

- wil

Like I said at the very beginning - what makes you think your sources are superior to mine?

You told me you never said that, but by discounting what everyone else is saying in favor of an article you've found, then essentially you are implying that your article is correct and my evidence is not. You are just believing what you are reading the same as everyone else.

It's swings and round-abouts.

>>>Andy, check your facts -- Saddam is spelt Saddam. <<<

Wil...maybe you should grow up...it was a simple typo!

I can see where this thread is going, so I'm gonna jump out before I get pulled into a non informative argument...

Andy (mod)
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Thomas is trying to open your eyes to more sources. Trying to get you to think past the front page of The Sun and actually read some facts from varying sources. That's all. He's not implying that this is concrete and yours isn't -- he's asking you to read it yourself and make your own judgement. Something you find hard to do, it seems.

- wil

By not falling into the well laid traps of flame baiters we can make sure the thread stays in focused direction.

It would be unfair for you to feel you had to leave the discussion due to the petulance of another.

A good point raised by Drew in private was that it is *more* acceptable for other coutries to possess weapons of mass distruction as they pose a much lower risk to the global community. To compare Saddam with George Bush is rather bizarre. The majority of countries in the world acknowledge Saddam is evil therefore for him to possess a weapon of mass destruction is a greater risk than a country with a sound political agenda and respect for the global community.

The point of owning weapons of mass destruction is not really the issue in my opinion, it is the issue of what will be done with them that is the problem.

Having said that, I don't agree with Donald Rumsfeld's decision to *possibly* use a WMD again Iraq in the event of war. They should only be used as a last resort.

Sorry to be off-topic, but... what does this phrase mean? One of my old favorite bands, Marillion, used the phrase in a song.

It's hard to explain, its like "you say one thing I say another" type of thing, but not exactly that. Like a neverending debate.

Okay thanks, now - back on topic. I think you "hit the nail on the head" when you basically said that if you/we don't work for the top-secret spy organizations you/we (the general public) really won't ever know the truth.

All I have to say is "I hope we are doing the right thing" (emphasing the word hope). I hope the truth will come to light - like exposing the gas chambers of Germany after WWII.

Until then, I've stocked up on ammo, tequila & duct tape.

Paul

Stop with your cheap digs. They don't work. It's pathetic.

Please refer to earlier posts, in private discussions; about the way you conduct yourself on these forums.

You're still very much mistaken. You are still living in your little world. Your little box. You need to get out.

"The majority of countries in the world acknowledge Saddam is evil".

Uh, no.

The majority of ****WESTERN**** countries believe Saddam is "evil" as you put it. Get it right. We're living in a big world. We're not just living in the Western world. Get out and experience others' views and realize that there is more to this world than America, Britain and Europe.

"Sounds political agenda, respect for the global community" .. where do you get this crap from?

Do you want to turn this around to the Kyoto treaty, which Bush walked out on? "Respect"? France is disagreeing with Bush on a professional and political level, which they have every right to do, and Bush is now considering economic sanctions on French cheese, champagne, wine to punish the French? Yeah, that's right, that's showing some good respect there.

- wil

Yup it's true. I'm sure there's some truth flying around there somewhere but we don't know which bit it is :)

We are all mere mortals when it comes to factual evidence and as a result we have to rely on the media. That's all we can do. When we see evidence provided by people like Donald Rumsfeld and Colin Powell then I personally have no reason to disbelieve or doubt it. The evidence speaks for itself, especially with satellite pictures. You would have to have some sort of serious paranoia or a hardon for conspiracy theories to think they had been faked and whatnot.


Hehe, I know what the duct tape and tequila is for but the ammo?

So you are saying we should take it up the ass and let Saddam stay in power?

I will give you that western countries view Saddam as evil whereas mid-eastern ones do not. But look at the reason: the governments in many of those countries censor media, control the press, and/or have laws that force it's population to publicly side with their government despite their private beliefs.

(Do you really think North Koreans organized an event honoring their president's birthday this week because they wanted to? My god, he took the freaking number 1 position as worst dictator in a recent article in Parade magazine.)

I personally don't care if France opposes this war... we've got enough support as it is.

Philip
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Limecat is not pleased.

In case anyone tries to take my tequila & duct tape. Actually all I really have for self-defense is a Shinai, so the best I could do is give the unruly mobs a good whacking with a bamboo sword.

Lol, I'm sure they'd love a good spanking.

My dad has two samaurai (wrong spelling probably) swords stored in our garage from the second world war, obtained by my grandpa. I think they are probably illegal...oops.