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9/11
This doesn't really make sense to me...

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In addition to the 3,045 counts of accessory to murder, he was convicted of five counts of attempted murder and bodily injury.

This is the guy that was just convicted in Germany regarding 9/11.

Now, if you commit one murder you are likely to get a life sentence....this guy has been found guilty of being an accessory to over 3000 deaths plus the other charges and only gets 15 years...probably 12 for good behaviour.

*Paul scratches head*

Last edited by:

Paul: Feb 19, 2003, 6:34 AM
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Re: [Paul] 9/11 In reply to
Legal systems in all countries (UK being the worst probably) are a load of crap. Did you hear about the burglar who now is claiming from the Jail Service for not investing his money in a high interest account while he was in Jail? Makes me sick Pirate

Andy (mod)
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Re: [Andy] 9/11 In reply to
One of the laws that irritates me the most is the one whereby if you injure someone who has unlawfully accessed your property then you can be prosecuted.

You should be allowed to defend yourself and your property however you please and if that means hurting someone then so be it.

If that was the law in place IMO it would certianly deter criminals knowing that they might get a good kicking if the property is not empty when they access it.

If they choose to illegally access private property then they should expect consequences.
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Re: [Paul] 9/11 In reply to
Yeah..there was a case about that not so long ago. Someone broke into his house, by climbing through a window. A knife had been left facing upwards, and he stepped onto it, going right through his foot. He then successfully managed to sure the person whos house it was for several hundred thousand 's, for 'damages to his health'....but what they don't seem to consider, is what the hell he was doing there!

Eugh!

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Re: [Paul] 9/11 In reply to
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You should be allowed to defend yourself and your property however you please and if that means hurting someone then so be it.

In Texas (all US states have different laws) you can use "deadly force" to protect your property (ie, stuff in your yard, car, etc) if it is "after dark". You can't shoot someone for breaking into your car in the daytime, but you can at night. (Of course that doesn't mean that you won't be hauled off to jail and threatened with all kinds of legal/civil actions.) Supposedly you can use deadly force to protect the inside of your house at anytime.

When I'm dictator I'll pass a law that says "anyone injured while commiting a crime has NO RECOURSE whatsoever."
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Re: [Watts] 9/11 In reply to
Hmm that sounds better than here but some of the laws can be a bit flakey. I think the rule over here is you are allowed to use "reasonable force" - not that anyone has any idea what that means.

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When I'm dictator I'll pass a law that says "anyone injured while commiting a crime has NO RECOURSE whatsoever."

I'll second it. Although having said that when I was about 8 years old I (regrettably) stole one of those little balls that you put in your bath that pop open and release a scented liquid - they are about the size of a peanut. I wouldn't have appreciated deadly force in that scenario Laugh
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Re: [Paul] 9/11 In reply to
LOL...what a thief Paul Wink

Andy (mod)
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Re: [Watts] 9/11 In reply to
While nighttime is mentioned in the Texas Penal Code, Chapter 9, time of day is not a limiting factor. You're required to know Chapter 9 and the Texas CHL Law, among other things, to obtain your concealed carry permit.

http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes/petoc.html

CHAPTER 9. JUSTIFICATION EXCLUDING CRIMINAL RESPONSIBILITY
SUBCHAPTER D. PROTECTION OF PROPERTY


9.41. Protection of One's Own Property

(a) A person in lawful possession of land or tangible, movable property is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to prevent or terminate the other's trespass on the land or unlawful interference with the property.

(b) A person unlawfully dispossessed of land or tangible, movable property by another is justified in using force against the other when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to reenter the land or recover the property if the actor uses the force immediately or in fresh pursuit after the dispossession and

(1) the actor reasonably believes the other had no claim of right when he dispossessed the actor; or

(2) the other accomplished the dispossession by using force, threat, or fraud against the actor.

[/url] 9.42. Deadly Force to Protect Property


A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:

(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and

(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:

(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or

(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and

(3) he reasonably believes that:

(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or

(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974. Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, 1.01, eff. Sept. 1, 1994.

Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974. Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, 1.01, eff. Sept. 1, 1994.

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ArmyAirForces: Feb 19, 2003, 10:20 AM
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Re: [ArmyAirForces] 9/11 In reply to
There are still some loop holes with that or grey areas.

I think unfortunately a lot of laws have such grey areas...they really need to be as concise as possible.
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Re: [ArmyAirForces] 9/11 In reply to
Cool!

I used to know all of that once upon a time, but I can't hit anything with a handgun so I decided not to apply for a permit.
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Re: [Paul] 9/11 In reply to
>> grey areas

Yep. Notice they use the word "reasonably" a lot - that is done on purpose because there is no concrete definition for it.
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Re: [Paul] 9/11 In reply to
When I went through the classes it was laid out pretty well. I try not read penal codes, it's not worth the headache.

-Scott
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Re: [Watts] 9/11 In reply to
Couple of afternoons at the range with a good instructor, and your skill level would come up considerably.

My father is a national match shooter and does teach new shooter classes on occasion.

To be a skilled shooter you need shoot frequently and get away from static booth/lane shooting. But anyone can obtain basic pistol competence with minimal training.

If you want to take a stab at it I encourage you to do so, find a certified NRA instructor which most area ranges will have on staff. That way you learn safety first and last. You can take individual instruction or with a small class. You will find your instructor eager to help you.

In states with concealed carry laws, most ranges will package together, for a very reasonable fee, the basic shooters class and the concealed handgun classes required by the state.

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ArmyAirForces: Feb 19, 2003, 11:10 AM
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Re: [ArmyAirForces] 9/11 In reply to
Hmm I think gun laws should be changed in the US. Gun related crimes are *way* higher in the US than anywhere else.

When you watch "Cops" and programs like that, it seems there are so many people carrying guns.

In the UK it is so rare to have any sort of gun related crime. I mean of course things like armed robberies exist but it's very rare you hear of shoot outs.

It's far to easy to obtain access to guns in America.
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Re: [Paul] 9/11 In reply to
You know, the funny thing is that we grew up with guns in the house and since our parents never made a big deal out of it (meaning we were allowed to handle them and shoot them whenever we wanted) we never thought of them as anything more than a tool - such as an axe or hachet may be regarded.

The point being that I'm sure there are much more acts of violence involving machete's in El Salvador than with handguns.

Likewise in the U.K., I'm sure the porportion of crime is the same but perhaps the tools used to commit those crimes are different.

What's the main type of crime that you see in your area? I think maybe there is a perception of rampant gun violence in the U.S. because that is what makes the headlines the most. However, you are right that proliferation of anything (cars, guns, even machetes) will cause an increase in related deaths/trauma to humans involving those particular items.

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Watts: Feb 19, 2003, 12:08 PM
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Re: [Paul] 9/11 In reply to
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Gun related crimes are *way* higher in the US than anywhere else.


Unlike other nations we have an incredibly diverse population of over 280 million. We also have a net migration rate of 3.5 per 1,000. England has a population of roughly 59 million, fairly mono-ethnic, under 3% non-European, and a net migration of 1.06/1,000 population. That's an important point only in that differences within societies are points of conflict.

If you look at homicide rates per 100,000 in the 1990s the US ranks behind South Africa, Columbia, Estonia, Brazil, Mexico, Philippines, and Taiwan.

However, our crime rates have been falling for the last two decades. I continue to read where assault, robbery, burglary, etc. are on the rise in the UK. But at least you have gun control Tongue

And yes it is easy to obtain a gun in the US, it is also very legal if you are a law abiding citizen. We value our individual freedoms and resist government intrusion in our lives, having no desire to emulate our friends in Europe on that front.

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ArmyAirForces: Feb 19, 2003, 12:57 PM