Myself and Yogi are considering writing a plugin to allow users to rate posts from say 1..10 so that members who make the best contributions will have higher ratings. These ratings will then be shown under usernames as a star rating (stars can be changed to whatever you want) - so at a glance you can tell who the highest rated members are or those who provide the best or most helpful answers.

Would anyone be interested in this or does anyone have any thoughts?

Yogi may add extra to what I've said if I've forgotten something ;)

Hi,

You know a feature I've been looking at that would be a great plugin would be a karma system like Slashdot. The basic premise is each user has a fixed number of points, and you can +1 or -1 a post and it uses up your points. You get a fixed number of points automatically, and you also get points when other people +1 your post. Then allow users to filter posts based on rating. It works out great for open sites that allow anyone to post. Have a look at http://slashcode.org/ for an example of how to use it.

Cheers,

Alex
--
Gossamer Threads Inc.

Is that the number in brackets here...

http://slashcode.com/~shiafu/ ??

That would be quite cool. What if people kept -1'ing you?...you could end up with like -1000

So is this something GT want to do or did you suggest it so myself and yogi could try to come up with something?

Have a look at:

http://slashdot.org/...2/05/12/220250.shtml?

It's the Score column beside each post. They also allow you to apply attributes to a post. It works quite well, you set your settings to say 2, and then when your reading slashdot, you eliminate 80% of the crap. Also, they have it setup so authenticated users start at a score of 1, and anonymous users start at a score of 0.

There are limits to prevent abuse. I don't know the details of what all the checks and balances are.

This is something I'd like to see personally, as I think it's a pretty good system. I don't know if it's something we would do unless it was a custom project.

Cheers,

Alex
--
Gossamer Threads Inc.

Once you read the thread, try looking at:

http://slashdot.org/...sort=0&op=Change

to see the filter in action. This only shows posts with a rating of 2 or more. Much more readable and interesting. =)

Cheers,

Alex
--
Gossamer Threads Inc.

I think that hyperlink above is broken.

Anyway how about a deal?....myself and yogi (or just me if yogi doesn't want to) will try to come up with a plugin to do that, if GT install it on this forum ....fair?

Fixed the link. As for putting it on Gossamer, if you include the ability to make it active per forum, definately. =)

Cheers,

Alex
--
Gossamer Threads Inc.

Good idea, maybe we can come up with something like the karma system. This might be very useful for heavy traffic sites, but maybe a bit of an overkill for low traffic sites.

What I was thinking of originally was more something like the "Recommend Post" thing they use at the Motley Fool (http://boards.fool.com/BestOf.asp).

Of course set up/permissions will be very flexible (per group, per forum) if needed.

Ivan
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Iyengar Yoga Resources / GT Plugins

Wow, cowboy! The slashdot karma system is the most controversial piece of moderation tool ever to be released on the 'net! It's a good system in principal, and it mostly works, but my god has there been in-depth discussions about it.

I recommend anyone who is seriously thinking about this i.e. Paul and Yogi to become a member of slashdot and really familiarise with the way the website works and how the karma system works. Then try reading past threads about the issues raised with such a system, and the issues about implanmenting such systems. Definitions are difficult.

Yes, allowing you to label your own levels is good, and the system does help to eliminate some trolls. On the other, it usually just encourages persistant trolls to sign up under a hundred different names and flood threads with pointless gibberish just to 'beat the system'.

A better system, IMO, is the XP system being used at http://www.perlmonks.org/ where users gain eXperience Points. This is calculated by some weird algorithm, basically how many times users log in each day, how many threads they read, how many posts they vote upon, how many votes their posts recieve, the sum of moderation done to their posts, the number of root nodes posted and more. This gives a broader perspective of how good an user is, or how valuable his or her's contribution is likely to be.

Update: The perlmonks.org website uses the Everything Web Development engine, with it's own built in karma like XP system. Do a search for Everything Web Development to see what I mean.

Implamenting a slashdot style sysem *is* a mamoth task. Working out the logic, and making the logic work for the 'average forum' is something very difficult. The karma system is very personalized for slashdot, even though it is bundled with the latest slashcode.

I dunno. I just have my doubts about this one.

- wil

Recently, I've been collecting Karma points on a vB based forum.

hmmm, interesting, and Wil has brought up many good points.

Script Kiddies will wanna try to find a whole in the system. But, hey, didn't we all at one time or another around the age of 14 try to break through a system of one type of another?

I'm not familiar with all the other systems and the slash dot one always evaded me on how it worked.

So, so simplicity will be nice but yet not so simplistic the system just turns into a rating system.

hmmm, experience rating could play favorites couldn't it? I mean if a bunch of folks decide to push down 1 person's Karma.

Also, I would like to see how my karma is being built! Here I mean, which threads bring my Karma up while which users / posts brought it down. And possibly, some kind of moderation to prevent attacks.

lol ... sounds really difficult but exciting at the same time.

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openoffice + gimp + sketch ...

QooQ,

Would be very interesting to see a graphical diagram, which shows value of the karma through the selected time interval.

Also would be fine to limit the percent change, someone's karma can change a day (1%-5%).
Hmmm. It starts to look like a user stock exchange...

I was serious anyway.

Best regards,
Webmaster33

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Have faith ;)

>>
On the other, it usually just encourages persistant trolls to sign up under a hundred different names and flood threads with pointless gibberish just to 'beat the system'.
<<

I really don't think that would be the case here. Its more likely to happen on sites like slashdot etc.

>>
Implamenting a slashdot style sysem *is* a mamoth task. Working out the logic, and making the logic work for the 'average forum' is something very difficult.
<<

Again, have faith ;)

Hi Paul

I'm speaking most of all from experience. I don't frequent slashdot.org anymore as it's just become a breeding ground for trollers and I rarely get any good discussions steming from the front page articles. And besides, their whole moderation on what goes on the front page is flawed - but that's a very different story.

I encourage you to look into the Everything Web Development system, though. The one that powers http://www.perlmonks.org to get a feel of the XP system. You will then be able to compare this with the karma system of http://www.slashcode.org and come up with your own ideas.

- wil

>>
I'm speaking most of all from experience.
<<

I guess Alex is too but he seems to like it :0) ....its personal taste. If it gets installed here and you don't like the way it works then don't use the karma system and let all posts show as normal

You mean the GT site?
Size of Gforum based sites may spread from small to medium, maybe even bigger sites,
so I think it may be a possible problem. An abuse defence system would be anyway fine to protect the "karma" of users.

Best regards,
Webmaster33

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There are going to be a few security features in place so I can't see any major issues.

I've got the filtering working, just need to setup the user/admin side of things now.

hmmm any RPG (paper version) gamers on board?

I keep thinking about this in AD&D terms ... lol my age shows

The marvel game had some pretty interesting ways to add Karma ... now if I just could remember some of them.

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openoffice + gimp + sketch ...

The plugin is turning out pretty sexy if I say so myself.

Karma can be turned on/off per forum. If it is on, next to every post you'll see:

Karma: 1 [+] [-]

The number is the current post karma and by clicking + or - you can increase/decrease the level.

The administrator can set an option in the admin panel so that the karma increments/decrements only after x number of votes, so say admin sets that option to 20, that means 20 people would need to vote for a post before the karma would increase/decrease.

It will track which posts you've already voted for and show:

Karma: 1 Voted

....if you've alread voted for it.

Forums not supporting karma will show:

Bad Karma

...that lot is template based so easy to change.

Only members that have posted x amount of posts to a forum and are considererd 'old hands' or 'regulars' should be able to alter a post's karma. Not everyone, by far. This should be a trusted power that is given when you reach a posting level of x.

- wil

Or, you get a number of points per day that you can use on changing a posts karma.

The number you get each day depends on the number of posts (and maybe their karma....)

Ivan
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Iyengar Yoga Resources / GT Plugins

Yes, but this brings me back to the Everything Web Development System which I have mentioned many times in this thread which is far superior to the slashcode based system of karma.

There are several different levels (10 in all) and each level you get a number of votes per day etc.

I urge everyone who is thinking of doing this seriously to go and register themselves on: http://www.perlmonks.org and participate to see how the system works.

Your points are calcualted on the numver of posts in a day, the number of useful posts, number of root nodes posted, number of votes casted and other common sense attributes.

Much much much much better than the karma system...

Cheers

- wil

Just wanted to add my 2 cents that the number of posts alone might not be a terribly great way of looking at things. On my boards at least, some of the people with the highest post counts are posting crap just to get/stay on the list-- I think it would only worsen if they had some actual "reward" for doing so.

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I don't see why only experienced users should be allowed to vote, thats like saying that new users can't understand the difference between a crap post and a good post...thats totally wrong and more often than not it is new users who are asking for help and would find it useful to vote for a reply almost as thanks if they got a good answer...so I agree with you Ellipsiiis

The reason I am saying this is of experience on boards with a higher traffic. Again, try http://www.perlmonks.org.

Perlmonks hardly gets any trolls. Why? Well because your theory of 'reward for posting, so people will post more' is wrong.

Because, if the posts are worthless, and I quote "posting crap" then they would get downvoted and loose XP points and loose their status. So, more often than not, people who just post crap all day but have a higher post count tend to quiet down as their reputation or 'karma' gets slammed as people don't really appreciate crap.

And in the end, their posts are always otuside of the default threshold of -1 - +3 (on slashdot) so noone gets to see their posts anyway, unless you specify that you want the output 'raw'.

In regards to not giving everyone a vote. The system should be flexible enough for someone to set their own threshold obviously, but usually you have to a) log in once to get 1 vote for the day, then you need to gain your XP to 5, then 50, then 200 etc. etc.

Anyway, this has been thrased out before, and a whole system was built from it. Again, I will suggest that you try out and lurk around http://www.perlmonks.org for a few weeks.

- wil

I've changed this around a little to make it a bit more flexible.

As it was if you voted for a post you then wouldn't be allowed to change your mind which I thought was a little sucky so I've set it up so people can vote for a post but can change their mind at a later date if they wish.

eg if I give good karma to a post then the person who wrote the post pisses me off I can go back and remove the karma. After that point you can no longer vote for the post.

I've put up a demo at:

Demo removed for a while.

You can change your karma level in your profile and change the karma for posts from either the flat or threaded modes.

I've set it so that one vote will change the karma just so you can test it out.

No, no, no!!! This goes against the whole purpose and principle of such a system. You are supposed to vote for the post and the post's contents and it's contex in the given thread. You don't vote for people you like and dislike and you shouldn't be allowed to go back to change your mind and do this.

Go and hang out at slashdot, or perlmonks.org for a few days, even weeks to see what I mean!

- wil

I voted [-] for post 4 but it didn't go to -1. Are only positives working?

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Err no, the whole point is to reduce the karma for posts you want to...there is no right or wrong reason...however the safety measure of requiring x votes prevents personal grievances from spoiling things, hence in the end it won't make a difference whatsoever.

You've got to get over this perlmonks thing, sheesh you've mentioned the word perlmonks about 15 times in this thread. If you are that obsessed why not write your own plugin?....Alex requested a karma style plugin so thats what Im doing...ok?

Hi,

yeah I was thinking about that before...one current issue is that new posts/threads will have a karma of 0 so if your level is set to 1+ then you won't get to see new posts or threads....thats a bit silly so Im going to change it so that posts below your karma level disappear except posts with a karma of 0

What do you think?....then I'll let the karma levels go below 0

I understand your view point. I'm just saying from experience of using these systems for a long time that it takes a hell of a lot of planning and logical thinking before implementing something.

I just want you to make a good job of it (believe it or not ;-)) as this could prove a very valuable plugin for both yourself and Gossamer Threads as this will make it a very unique product. Most karma systems are tied in with content managment systems. I have yet to see a *comprehensive* one shipped with a forum.

I just don't want you rushing off to code something just to have to go back to the planning board and start again because you didn't take the time to think things through. I've been there. We've all been there - and it sucks, so I'm just trying to avoid that on yourself.

- wil

How about a NULL karma until someone actually votes on it? That would make it appear for everybody then?

On slashdot, I notice that you can specify a range, rather than a cut off point. i.e. I believe the default is set to view all posts between -1 <-> +3.

- wil

>>
How about a NULL karma until someone actually votes on it? That would make it appear for everybody then?
<<

Well yeah 0, NULL, same difference.

Yeah I guess I could do the range thing. Im also thinking of adding in username filtering too so that you can filter out certain users.

Username filtering? I think that should be a seperate plugin?

http://www.gossamer-threads.com/...orum.cgi?post=174177

- wil

I don't know if you were intending to reply to my post, but if you were you must have misunderstood. I was referring to the fact that after I rated a post negatively the rating didn't change, even though you said it was set at one person. When I rated another post positively it did change.

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And you should also read the announcement that I posted from slashdot on this exact feature:

http://www.gossamer-threads.com/...orum.cgi?post=176211

- wil

Hi,

Yes I was replying to you...which bit of my post made you think I'd misunderstood your post?

Wil may I ask you a question...does slashdot rule your life?...it seems so.

Sorry, I didn't catch that last bit-- I didn't realize it was intentional. I definitely agree that there should be a way that new posts aren't excluded. I don't get why there would need to be a range though-- would anyone really block posts that were above a certain amount? ("I'm sorry, I'd only like to read crap today" ;-) )

I also love the idea of having certain users not show-- could this be a per user setting, like one user could block PosterA and one could block PosterB?

DCScripts had this on a board-wide setting, and even that was great because the person assumed people were reading their posts and not replying when in reality no one could see them.

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No. I hate slashdot. It's all full of trolls and too political for me.

- wil

>>
I also love the idea of having certain users not show-- could this be a per user setting, like one user could block PosterA and one could block PosterB?
<<

Yep thats exactly how it would work.

There would be a textarea in your basic profile and you could list usernames to block.

Fabulous :) I'm very excited about that aspect.

I don't think it needs to be a separate plugin, as if you don't want that aspect you just wouldn't include the field on the user profile template. I imagine it's taken care of in the same function that the hiding of poorly-rated posts is, so it's probably more efficient to do it in one stroke.

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Realiiity.com Forums

>>
I imagine it's taken care of in the same function that the hiding of poorly-rated posts is
<<

Yep.

If you don't want that feature it can be turned off in the plugin options.

Glad to see that things are moving along on this.

Not, to dig up old bones, but, the reason I'm so interested in this plugin is that I remember several different threads here at the forums talking about the "number" of posts vs "quality", about a person's "status" as being "veteran" and what not ....

What is the purpose of "Karma" if it ends up being just like the "number of posts" a person has? OR like a polling system?

I can see why Wil keeps mentioning perlmonks and their "XP" (Experience Points) system.

Here's a bit taken from another foum regarding vB's karma system ... I'm not sure if it's admin settable or not (I bet it is though) ....

Obviously, a big worry is if "a few" members continuously disregard with "a few" and continually give bad karma to someone. So, hopefully, there will be some kind of flood control to prevent problems.


Another thing, what do you get to do with your "karma" ???

The Marvel game I used to play allowed you to "add karma" to your attack against an oppenent! So, basically, you could rig the dice roll to gain an automatic critical hit or to automatically gain an automatic block.
So, I guess the karma at /. is only a popularity vote .... hmmm ... well I guess at a fundamental level isn't bad but I also want something more than just popularity, since I can gain popularity or dictatorship by convincing the admin to make me a moderator.

Which makes the XP system a little more attractive, since you gain XP/Karma which is connected to number of posts which in turn reflects your status level at the forum.
ie ... I wouldn't techinically be a "veteran" here yet!!! Since I've only met the "number of posts" requirement and not the "experience level".

whooo ... this is definitely, out of AD&D. hehehe. (perlmonks must have a few old timers like me with similar gaming experience).

So, I guess I'm saying that the karma and user ranks should be tied together (much more intergrated and advanced compared to the fundamental level I mentioned above).

So what do you do with your karma? Gloat over it? View it and say, "dam, I'm the posting king here!"?
How about letting users use their accumalated karma in this lifetime? Not in the ether world?
- you can use it to apologize. ie ... "you bad mouth somebody and wish to show that you are sorry" ...pay XX karma points
- you want to reach the next use rank but don't have enough posts (buy it with karma!)
- you use karma when you edit a post
- you use karma when you "delete" a post
- you loose karma when you "write sh_t, f_uck, b_stard, _sshole, ect..."
- you gain karma when you compliment somebody
- you loose karma when you "brown nose"
- ect ...

hmmm ... if tied in with user ranks ....
with enough bad karma you can loose a rank or 2. Just like a resurrection in AD&D.

ok ... this is gettiing really long.

Not meaning to bad mouth or cut down what has been done so far, just some ideas that I wanted to voice about this plugin hoping that I've said "1" thing that helps. hehe shotgun with birdshot effect

cheers!

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openoffice + gimp + sketch ...

The main purpose of a karma~ system on perlmonks and on slashdot is *moderation*.

As your user levels go up you are allowed to approve threads for posting (similar to the moderation plugin discussesed somewhere in this forum). Then you are allowed to make changes to the site's FAQ and editorials, then you can join the dev team and see and make changes to the code and amongst this you can 'frontpage' nodelets - i.e. vote on which threads are hot enough to be on the front page. These are all powers given at different levels and carry a degree of responsibility that hardly ever gets abused over at perlmonks as their XP system actually works. As for slashdot and karma.. well.. set your threshold to -1 and let the troll flood gates open...

- wil

Ok I've changed the plugin. It now will not show posts with a karma level below your threshold but it will show posts with a karma of 0...ie new posts or posts that have no rating, this is needed so that new posts are visible.

I've also added username filtering as an admin option...I have it working well.

The only issue I can see is that you lose thread context if a big chunk of posts disappear but if you aren't interested in what a certain user has to say then that won't bother you anyway.

Ok I've put up the "pretty much" final demo....

http://213.106.15.150/.../gforum.cgi?forum=1;

I decided to remove username filtering as it wasn't the original purpose of the plugin...I'll make a seperate one to do that at a later date.

You'll need to register as it is a member only feature.

Doesn't work for me. Do you have it still installed?

Ivan
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Iyengar Yoga Resources / GT Plugins

What doesn't work?...yes it is installed.

Are you logged in?

I am logged in, but I don't see any plusses or minusses... or am I blind???

Ivan
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Iyengar Yoga Resources / GT Plugins

I see them....they are on the left hand side of every post.....you won't see them in Forum2 as karma is off so it should say "No Karma", only Forum1

 

 

Ivan
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Iyengar Yoga Resources / GT Plugins

Hmm thats a bit strange....

The template code is:


....so either way you should see something as it uses else.

Yogi, could you try now please.

It works. I down-karmaed them all!

Ivan
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Iyengar Yoga Resources / GT Plugins

I'd accidentally put the template code inside:

<%if is_ie and ie_version >= 4%>

...and it looks like you were using Netscape so thats why you didn't see it.

The latest version of Galeon, to be a bit more precise....

Ivan
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Iyengar Yoga Resources / GT Plugins

Why is it when you're not logged in you see a "No Karma" message?

- wil

Because guest aren't allowed to changed the karma of posts.

Yeah, but that implies that posts have no karma, when in fact they might have?

- wil

Thats just bad wording on my part...it is supposed to imply that karma is off.....

I changed it to "Karma Off"

Proposal: only let people vote once. They have to make up their mind.

Ivan
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Iyengar Yoga Resources / GT Plugins

>>
Proposal: only let people vote once. They have to make up their mind.
<<

Hmm if you are like me though you are over impulsive sometimes so it just gives people a chance to reverse their vote if they do something hastily......imagine if their was no post editing...it would be a nightmare :)

Exactly, yogi!

http://www.gossamer-threads.com/...orum.cgi?post=196102

;-)

- wil

Is this still being worked on?

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