I must say I feel cheated having waited all this time for the new release only to find out there's a cap on the number of domains you can use, before being forced to pay $5000.

I bought Gossamer Mail because of the great support and price. I had been persuaded by support to buy before the new release to save the $200. Nothing was mentioned about introducing a cap on domains, which is a shame as I might not have hung on this long or even paid for the product in the first place.

How about a special offer for us existing members who've contributed towards Gossamer Mail's development? I have 2 or 3 hundred domains I would like to use, but cannot afford or justify spending another $4500.


Regards

Jason

I just wanted to give a voice of support of what seems like very reasonable pricing. I was glad to see that the pricing for the initial batch of domains was so low. Its worth far more than that. Kicking it up dramatically for those that are clearly running a business (web based email for hundreds of domains SHOULD cost $5000) is only fair.

People need to understand that businesses like GT need to earn enough to keep running, month after month. Its not as easy as many people seem to think.

Kevin Patch
Anaconda Partners
www.anaconda.net

I agree that $5000 is a bargain for large businesses that will probably profit out of it but for smaller businesses and individuals, it is a lot.

The only thing slightly frustrating was that there was no real prior warning of the pricing structure changes. I am at the forum nearly everyday and never knew about it until yesterday so I expect not many others did either.

Anyway good luck to GT because they sure as hell deserve that kinda of money for their scripts!


Installations:http://www.wiredon.net/gt/
Favicon:http://www.wiredon.net/favicon/

I am in the same boat here and feel quite alarmed. I have placed the order on May 27 for a system that supports unlimited users and unlimited domains. I had before that spoken on the phone at multiple occasions with Alex and other members of the team and I was informed that GM2 will support an unlimited number of domains and users . I was further told that I should place the order before the product is released to make use of then current pricing as prices will change once final product is released but upgrade is free.

I did not get what I paid for and I have never installed the system or even attempted to. I placed an order for a webbased email system that supports unlimited users and unlimited domains. Nothing less is acceptable. It's kind of hard to believe that GT will actually indulge in such deceitful practices and so I am sure Alex will kick in and fix this unacceptable solution ASAP. Otherwise, there is no other solution but to get a full refund ASAP and terminate all future business with GT. I cannot be charged for a product and have something else delivered. And I for sure cannot do business with a company I do not trust. I am sure that Alex will make sure this does not happen.

I think there are three different types of GM users:

1) Old users
2) Future users
3) Users that placed an order few days ago for a system that supports unlimited domains and unlimited users simply to make use of old pricing as recommended by GT team.

Group 1 is getting a free upgrade so they really cannot complain but should rather feel grateful. Group 2 obviously pays for what they want. But group 3 has not received what they paid for and this should be rectified immediately.

I have emailed Alex with respect to this and am awaiting a full rectification of the situation. I will post on this board with the result of that correspondence. I encourage all others that are in the same boat to email Alex.

Frank

I would have thought that if you had placed an order before the new pricing structure came into action then you would get what you paid for, or what you ordered, at the price it was advertised, at the time of ordering.

...but that is for Alex to answer.

Installations:http://www.wiredon.net/gt/
Favicon:http://www.wiredon.net/favicon/

Paul,

That is incorrect.

I never bought GM 1 because it never suited my needs. Only when it was announced that GM2 will support unlimited domains that I became interested. I called and spoke with many people at GT including Alex and they all confirmed the same thing: GM2 will support an unlimited number of domains and if I want GM2 I better place an order now to make use of then current pricing.

At no time EVER, did anyone suggest multitiered pricing.

I placed an order based on recommendations, info and instructions from GT on how to get GM2 with unlimited domains and users at old price.

If I wanted earlier version, I would have taken that a long time ago. All my domains have been registered more than 2 years ago.

The issue here is getting what I paid for. That's all. Clear and simple

Frank

At first, it seemed like a simple "final pricing" decision. But after thinking about it a bit, it does seem a bit unfair. Clearly, this was specifically being "pre-sold"...with product specs that included the words "unlimited domains". If the final product isn't what was pre-sold, then its a "switch". Perhaps a simple granting of the Enterprise license to anyone that purchased it already, and the new "you snoozed you lose" pricing for everyone that buys from now on?

(The pricing itself is totally reasonable...but the unfortunate pre-sales specs and pricing are at odds with the shipping final product)

Kevin Patch
Anaconda Partners
www.anaconda.net

Frank, you must have misread my post - I was agreeing with you.

I said that you should get what you paid for at the time of ordering.

Installations:http://www.wiredon.net/gt/
Favicon:http://www.wiredon.net/favicon/

Hi,

When setting the pricing of Gossamer Mail 2 we wanted to address three different types of users:

- Users who wants to add free email to their site, but don't want to use a third party service, but rather control it themselves.

- Users who wants to sell pop accounts, or provide free email as a business (i.e. like pobox.com or others).

- Users who want to run a service like everyone.net where they host other people's emails for a monthly fee.

Now Gossamer Mail 2 can do all of these quite well, however paying $450 and being able to run a service like everyone.net seems well underpriced. Also, this should be a "reality check" for people. We get a lot of people who purchase Links SQL 2 and are upset when they can't run the full DMoz on their virtual account. Similairly, if you are planning to run 1000 domains (not 1000 users!), you should be running on a LAN with dedicated servers for database, mail, application, etc.

Now, I realize the point of all this is not so much the pricing but that existing users were not properly informed. This is something we will definately address in an email to all existing users. But just to reassure you we will come up with an arrangement. I just ask you to hold on till Monday afternoon after I've had a chance to sort through all the emails.

Cheers,

Alex

--
Gossamer Threads Inc.

Paul,

I guess you are right. I misunderstood your post. Thank you for the clarification.

Alex,

Thanks for replying. I'll wait for your reply and see what you come up with.

Frank

I share Frank's sentiments exactly. Except for point 3 he makes. I haven't been waiting a few days, I have been waiting since August 2000 for this new release. I have been eagerly following developments through the betas and was excited to read GM2 was finally released. Then I read the bottom paragraph. It took a few moments to sink in, that I'd have to pay another $4,500 for the unlimited domains I thought I was buying into from the start.

Even obvious supports of GT's products, like Paul Wilson, seem shocked by the sudden price increase. Paul, you tackfully say "not many others" knew of the forthcoming three-tiered pricing structure, but I think this is more accurately expressed as no one knew, apart from staff, and that some of us have been left feeling angry and cheated.

$5000 is a snip for big businesses as someone rightly said, but how many of us are anything other than small business? I myself am a sole trader, trying to work through the current Internet climate. I would gladly pay $5000 if I could afford it, but the point is I handed over cash in the first place believing I already had unlimited domains.


Regards

Jason

GT customer service and support as everyone knows is outstanding and Alex is always willing to provide advice and code snippets etc (along with Jason, Jack and the rest)...but it is a little worrying that a major pricing alteration was not publically made available to license holders and prospective clients. Even a quick Announcement would have been better that nothing.

I am just wondering why GT didn't mention it?

Were they not expecting anyone to notice or mind?...Did they forget or not consider it important?

I don't think it was any of those reasons but that doesn't leave much else.

Installations:http://www.wiredon.net/gt/
Favicon:http://www.wiredon.net/favicon/

The problem is it makes otherwise happy customers feel ripped off. If we'd known about the tiered pricing and the reality behind what "unlimited domains" means, we might have taken our business elsewhere, and so feel duped.


Regards

Jason

So I'm wondering whether existing customers of GMail 2 get upgrades and which ones they get.

Because if the full version of GMail 2 was bought with the unlimited domains option in tact, say a week or more ago, then if they can only receive upgrades to the new standard version, with restricted domains, then that is a bit harsh...


Installations:http://www.wiredon.net/gt/
Favicon:http://www.wiredon.net/favicon/

Wickedmoon,

You are correct. I should change group3 to the group of users that paid for GM2 while it was in beta with the understanding that what they are buying is a version with unlimited domains and unlimited users.

When that money was paid is irrelevant.

You are 100% correct. Let's see what Alex will come up with.

Frank

I guess the only fair solution is to give an enterprise license to all those existing users that satisfy the following criteria:

1) They paid for GM2 when it was still in production
2) They paid for a version of unlimited domains.

So then I guess the way to objectively determine who qualify for point 2 is to check the support board, support emails,....and see the very first time it was mentionned by GT staff that the new version will support unlimited domains. Anyone who placed an order after that and until yesterday, gets the enterprise license at no additional cost.

I think this is the only fair solution to this matter.

Frank

Frank,

That would be a fair resolution, but number 2 is a null point. ALL existing members who bought in during beta were under the impression they'd have unlimited domains. That was in the original spec, so that is what they should get. It doesn't have to be confirmed in emails or on some support board, it was there in writing from the beginning and the reason some of us bought the software in the first place. From my wranglings with litigation last year, my guess is by law the spec forms a binding agreement between both parties.

Personally I don't want an Everyone.net type service, I just want to host the domains I bought for myself a few years ago as part of an email service, whether that's a few domains or a few hundred.


Regards

Jason

Jason,

<<<<ALL existing members who bought in during beta were under the impression they'd have unlimited domains. >>>>

I think that solves it then. All those that paid for GM2 while in production should get an enterprise license.

I really believe this is the only fair, acceptable and as Paul said legal solution

Frank

Paul,

Sounds about right. It still amazes me how much weight a couple of lines in a contract can have when it comes down to it. Having spent £300 an hour on a solicitor to win back a domain that was stolen from me (by a guy in Canada funnily enough), it came down to one sentence in an email sent to me, that formed a legally binding agreement and helped me get the domain back.

Conversely, *another* case I was involved in last year saw a software company get away with a few thousand I had given them for software development. They hadn't come up with the goods and had screwed me over, but I'd have had a difficult time getting the money back, because of a few lines in the small print. But who bothers to read that? I do now.


Regards

Jason

I think the best thing to do is wait for Alex's decision tommorrow and take it from there.

Alex said that GT will come up with some sort of an agreement and I believe that they won't let their faithful user community down


Installations:http://www.wiredon.net/gt/
Favicon:http://www.wiredon.net/favicon/

I too purchased with the expectation that we were looking at a product with unlimited domain capability. I was counting on more than 5, at least.

On the other hand, i think the pricing structure makes sense, too. The product would seem well worth the money, if I had it to spend ;)

I'll look forward to more news about the agreement.

As a final point and on reflection I would just like to say that a free upgrade to the enterprise version is not the right solution because the list of features includes the new pop server and 4 hours of mod_perl support, none of which was originally paid for or expected, by existing GMail users, therefore for GT to give all existing GMail customers a free upgrade to the enterprise version would be out of the question. As I mentioned myself, customers should get what they paid for, and they did not pay for a pop server and 4 hours of support.

Just my opinion....

Installations:http://www.wiredon.net/gt/
Favicon:http://www.wiredon.net/favicon/

I've waited what was it since last year? I went and registered 30 domains for a product I was told would support unlimited domains? I wait and wait and wait and then get told the price is now $1450 US for what i want?

Please tell me after telling my boss Gossamer Mail was the best solution for our business at the time and now $800 US increase?

When I asked Alex about the new realease I got told buy it now cause the Price goes up when Version 2 comes out. I supported it back then paid for it for a product we werent even going to use till version 2 came out because it didn't have everything i wanted. I remember even trying to hack a non frame template which didn't work. Now version 2 is here I have 30 domains which I registered as I was clearly told this product would do unlimited domains.

Anyone want to buy a domain for $1450 US ? Just think of it as helping me keep my job.

Basically ive lost the money we paid for the product to get it finished in the first place. We support gossamer by paying for gossamer mail even before the release because as alex said the price would go up.

great products

but dont you think its morally wrong to tell me to pay you basically 5 months ago and then make me wait since late last year or early this year and now tell me I have to approach my boss and tell him I need the company credit card for another $800US.

Hi Jason,

The guys at GT are working hard to rectify the problem. It is not done and dusted yet. There is still hope...

Installations:http://www.wiredon.net/gt/
Favicon:http://www.wiredon.net/favicon/

Paul,

I agree 100%. I never actually even thought about that. But the POP server and 4 hours of mod perl are manual addons and so can be easily not added to that pool of people. However the software would probably need to be unlocked to function in an "unlimited manner" and an enterprise license is the only way to make that happen.

One should get what one has paid for. Nothing less. Nothing more.

Frank

A related issue is the one years free updates. Many of us were persuaded to buy many, many months prior to this new release, on the promise that version 2 was "just a few weeks away". Granted, I'm fully aware of how long software development can take, I've worked in software before, but some people have been waiting since last year, so effectively they've only got a few months in "free updates" left, now that v2 has been finally released.

They bought v1 for the imminent v2 release, so could argue the year of free updates should begin now.


Regards

Jason

Hi,

This is the email I just received from Alex and it states that registered users will receive the unlimited version this afternoon at no cost with no mod-perl or extra support.

I guess GT again proved itself to be the reputable company it has always been and I consider this issue solved to my satisfaction. Whatever was the reason behind what has happened is not important anymore as harm has been fixed. I thank Alex for bringing this issue to satisfactory resolution.

Frank


<<<<<

Hi,

First off, let me apologize for our total failure to communicate our new pricing effectively to you, our customers. I wasn't aware of some of the things that had been said and promised. We will take steps to make sure this doesn't happen again.

I've always said that Gossamer Mail 2 would be a free upgrade to all existing users, and it still will be. I also don't want people to think they now have to pay a lot of extra money after waiting all this time for version 2 just to get what they thought they were buying.

So our upgrade policy is now:

All Gossamer Mail 1 users, are entitled to the Gossamer Mail 2 Standard edition -- with the domain restriction removed -- at no extra cost.

What this means is that it is a standard version in all ways except for there is no limit on domains. The POP Server plugin is not included (this was always advertised as a paid plugin), and the consulting is not included. Also, you only get the 1 year of updates (as with version
1).

I will make this version available this afternoon and post a message on the forum when it is there.

If you have any questions about this, please don't hesitate to ask.

Again, please accept my apologies about this, not the best way to launch what I hope to be a first-class email system.

Cheers,

Alex


>>>>>>

Hi,

every GMail user received the same email.

PS: I told you they wouldn't let you down....

Installations:http://www.wiredon.net/gt/
Favicon:http://www.wiredon.net/favicon/

every GMail user received the same email.?????
Well I have V1 and I didn't get this email :(

Capt

I need to state too, that just for the record, GT has always honored their promises, upgrades, and cherised their existing users -- often with a patience that goes above and beyond the call of humanity, much less duty.

If there is a problem, or something doesn't seem clear, it's always better to ask them directly, as nothing they do will intentionally (or adversely) affect existing user licenses (by past experience).

This can be seen in the message Alex sent out to clear things up for existing GM users. Also, if there is a "special" situation in your particular case, just drop Alex a letter. There are so many "special" cases with the installs of the early versions of the software, that this is the best way to find out the answers in your case.

With a company like GT, griping about things is the least productive -- and mostly pointless -- thing you can do. GT is one of the few companies where the gripers almost always look worse than anything they gripe about.

The past 12 months or so, have been tough for everyone. Alex/GT made some tough decisions to rewrite the core and base of all their programs, miss deadlines, but to develop what is quite possibly the best expanding suit of programs and utilities out there for site development.

There is no way they are going to hurt all those people who stuck with them, and all the people who did stick with them, will see the benefits from cleaner, faster code, easier modifications, easier upgrades (look at the cool install!) and plug-ins that improve the program without touching your code.

Additionally, there is a slow cross-product integration that will eventually allow all the programs to share a central code library, a central user registry, and to work with 3rd party programs like wwwthreads and others seamlessly.

All this is possible due to the front-end (time wise) back end (code wise) development that was done. All this is mostly invisible to the webmaster who just wants to use the programs, but as a programmer and developer, I can tell you these programs, these modules, and designs are really, really awesome.

Their costs and fees are well below what others are charging for inferior porducts with a much more limited lifespan, and I'm actually glad to see GT taking the stand that higher-end program versions will carry a higher end price. 1) because they need to present a "stable" and "business" image, and 2) because unless they can remain profitable (put food on their tables) they won't be able to keep coding the new revisions !! :)

And while I hope I good naturedly pick on Alex at times, about being too close to the programs, I'm absolutely awed and impressed at what he's been able to turn out.

So, to get back to the real point, please don't make a big issue over this (pricing and licensing). If you have a problem, contact Alex directly. I can't help but believe you will be taken care of properly. I know most people who took a moment to think about it, did just that, rather than post here.

That said... one group of people might be a bit left out (that's up to Alex, really) -- and it _WAS_ THEIR choice. Those people who hung around waiting for version 2.0, without buying version 1.x at the pre-release price for 2.0, with a wait-and-see attitude. That was a choice they made not to support GT early on, not to become a "customer", and not to share the benefits -- and potential risk. I know how I feel about it -- those people who've pre-registered the programs I'm developing, and showed their support, will be well taken care of :) Everyone else...?.... the program has a release price that is higher than my pre-release price. :)

Kudos for Alex and GT.


PUGDOG® Enterprises, Inc.
FAQ:http://LinkSQL.com/FAQ
Forum:http://LinkSQL.com/forum

Hi,

If you didn't receive the email, please contact me with your order details as most likely it means one of our previous messages to you bounced and we disabled the download login. =)

Cheers,

Alex

--
Gossamer Threads Inc.

Pugdog,

Don't dismiss our concerns as "gripes". We were wholly justified in posting here. Some of us don't have your experience with GT, how are they supposed to know they weren't going to be screwed over? The issues over pricing WERE a big issue, but fortunately it's been resolved to everyones satisfaction and GT have proven themselves to be a reputable company.

I think this is the right place to share ideas, even if those ideas are complaints. I'd rather know what other people are thinking than direct all my comments to private email.


Regards

Jason

I have to agree.

People who pay $600+ for a script have the right to express their concerns when something doesn't seem right. After all the purpose of this forum is to discuss problems (amongst other things) with fellow users. I also don't think Alex would appreciate 1000+ emails arriving in his inbox

The word "gripes" is a little condescending....not meaning offence to Pugdog...

I also think this is a little unnecessary...

Installations:http://www.wiredon.net/gt/
Favicon:http://www.wiredon.net/favicon/

I think this made my point _exactly_.

It was taken care of, and the negative vibes and feelings were completely unnecessary. A simple ... "Alex, could you clarify" or a private email with your specific concerns would have been better.

My point again. This idea of "what other people were thinking" is just what I was referring to. If there is no problem, why try to create one, by stirring up the pot, or throwing rocks at the hornet's nest?

If GT is a reputable company, and a simple look at their past track record visible here in the forums, with other customers and upgrades would have confirmed that, then a simple "please clarify" would have sufficed.

Before griping make sure there is something to gripe about. Lately it seems everyone always assumes the worst, and sometimes, that becomes a self fullfilling action. Negativity often generates and equal and opposite negative response.

This is why I applauded Alex's "above the call of humanity" patience with some people over the past 2+ years I've been hanging around here.

This should be over now.

You stated your opinions and views of the situtation, as did others, and I stated mine.

Mine just happen to assume GT would be the good guys they've always shown themselves to be, while many of the other posts seemed to assume something much less positive.



PUGDOG® Enterprises, Inc.
FAQ:http://LinkSQL.com/FAQ
Forum:http://LinkSQL.com/forum

>I think this made my point _exactly_.
>My point again.

Interesting how everything I say actually supports what you say.

I can appreciate your convictions, but to me it is tantamount to blind faith in a company. You can't expect users to wade through months of old posts in the hope a picture will eventually emerge showing GT to be the company who can do no wrong.

It is not as if we were being unreasonable. People felt screwed over, justifiably. This fact seems to go completely over your head, such is your faith in the company. Stand back a minute and see it from our point of view. We were promised one thing, but given another. What makes you think a simple "please clarify" sent through private email would have resulted in unlimited domains for all?

GT hadn't even realised what they had done until we all raised the issue. Even if a company is good and reputable, as I believe GT to be, you can't expect everyone to always say "Great job, guys" without them also raising concerns from time to time. And before we go round in another circle, no, we're not always going to post our complaints by private email!

If anything, like has been said already, you have been condescending towards everyone who voiced an opinion on this.


Regards

Jason