What are the chances of an online DBMan class or discussion for ppl who are somewhere between rudimentary Perl and novice Perl users (without going into a class on Perl)? I'm looking for discussion of algorithm & theory rather than "here's how to do this specific task." Is this outrageous (i.e., Val, please have another cup of coffee and THINK about what you just requested) or is this do-able?

Valerie
http://www.skymax-usa.com
http://www.ad-ink.com

It's a great idea. The problem is logistics -- if you're talking about a live class, anyway. Timing is a major problem for live stuff on the 'net because of the different time zones where people are. And I have a very hard time trying to remember to get to things like that.

I wonder if there is an IRC thing for Perl discussions. I've never looked.

There are some really good sites for learning about Perl, and I could help you compile them. Then there's the Perl and CGI forum here, but it's pretty much "how do I accomplish this task"?

Maybe you could give me a little more about what you have in mind.

JPD

You are right - an online class would probably be difficult to schedule. Compiling Perl/CGI websites is a good idea - I'm willing to take a list and/or help compile a list; my only reservation is that there are many compilations that are worthless.

DBM has become my Perl testing ground - I have configured scripts before - very canned, very easy to set-up and modify. But DBM has tested the limits of my pitiful Perl ability and forced me to dig out Schwartz' Learning Perl and bounce from Perl site to Perl site hunting down operators, arrays etc., with examples. So, here I sit - wanting to understand *exactly* how DBM works without taxing the forum's reserves or driving myself nuts with my brute force method of learning (oh! there's a variable I haven't seen before, let's find *every* reference to it throughout the script...)

A DBM Tutorial written for the person who wants to understand Perl through DBM is probably the best way to go. And I am sure there are costs to this - someone or a group of someone's would spend alot of time putting this together - I am willing to contribute both financially and in time (I can edit but that's about it until I learn more). I'll bet everything has already been covered in the forum - such that a "tutorial" section could be created that pulled in relevant threads, edited for further explanation or deletion of extraneous conversation.

It may be that I am just still overwhelmed trying to get my arms around something that is bigger than my current knowledge base. So, again, if what I am asking for is outrageous, have mercy on me!!

Valerie
http://www.skymax-usa.com
http://www.ad-ink.com

I think this would be a great idea. I have only been using
DBM for a short time. Have installed a few scripts and have learned a lot by doing so. Working with DB and adding mod's really teaches you a lot. I would be willing to help in anyway I can.

I have found asynchronous communication to be a viable method in learning environments. Having a discussion forum like this for Perl and then specific applications would be nice. Not only are time zones a logistical nightmare, but people's schedules and coordinating them. That is why asynchronous web communications are so nice.



Just me two cents...

Regards,

Eliot Lee

What I did was to go through the script, step by step, "playing computer." In other words, I followed every process that the script went through from the time the string was sent to the script until the new page was produced. (I still haven't figured out all of sub query, though.)

I know it helps that I had done programming in other languages and authoring systems before I came to DBMan. And I had both "Learning Perl" and "Programming Perl" at my elbow while I was doing it. I still have them both right here and I use them every day.

I don't think that financial help is necessary at present. I have a lot of webspace right now and, if I should run out we could either try to con Alex into giving us some space at GT or we could find some other webspace for free. Probably web-design would be what others could offer that would be the most help. If all I had to do was write the text and someone else could take care of the rest of the stuff, that would be a major factor. (Not that I necessarily have to write it. If anybody else wants to, go for it!)

My question is what format do we want? A static tutorial? A forum (Eliot's "asynchronous communication" [I like that phrase ])? I think we've already decided that live chats are out.

The advantage to a tutorial is that it can be laid out in a logical manner. The problem with it is that I guarantee that whoever writes it will leave out something that someone else thinks is important. (I have experience in this. )

The advantage to a forum is that people can ask what they need to know. The problem is that it's hard to find things and the same questions are asked and answered multiple times. (Come to think of it, I have experience in this, too! )

So what do you think? If you want a tutorial, what sort of format do you want? My first inclination is to write out the same process I went through -- explaining each step that the script goes through when it is called. But I don't know if that's the best way for others to learn.


JPD

I think a "static tutorial" is the way to go.

The tutorial could be broken into sections, at the end of each section,
any questions could be asked through a form that hooks straight to the
GT forum and posts it on DBM Customisation? Or better still, a new board
"BDM Tutorial"?

A Forum would be great for discussions on each section of the
tutorial, but I don't really think it would suited to host
the actual tutorial itself.

At the end of each week (month, day, year? ) questions could
be compiled into a sort of FAQ and added to the one's (if any) already
in the tutorial.

Missing sections can always be dealt with through feedback forms.
Updates to sections can be announced through "What's New" pages.

How to set it out is the question... perhaps Carol's idea is not so bad?
Following the database through each of it's processes sounds like a good
idea to me - picking up on new functions and commands as we go along.
That's how we learn, starting with the basics and working our way through,
discovering this and that along the way.

I'd be happy to contribute, though my input on the educational side of
things would be limited. Web-design is my stronger area, so I'd be more
than happy to help take on that part of the project.

Ideas? Thoughts? Criticism?

- Mark

Astro-Boy!!
http://www.zip.com.au/~astroboy/

I'm working on some mods this evening, but when I finish the ones I'm in the middle of, I'll take a little break and see about writing just the process the script goes through when the script is first called -- basically how you get to the login form. That shouldn't take too long and you can see if that's the type of thing you would be interested in.

I'm thinking that it might be a good idea to keep the web design very simple. In fact, it might be best if we didn't do much fancy stuff at all. People might want to print the pages. And nothing like frames or javascript or applets or whatever else is in vogue these days.

JPD

I can contribute web space, design (although I agree with Carol that the "design" should be simple - no frills), editing and structure (sorry, my Type A personality has a need for release). If we need anything else, let me know.

An addition to this forum - DBM Tutorial or something like - is an option. Someone with the knowledge, time and motivation (oh! Carol!! I'm on my knees here) can coordinate topics (a "syllabus" of sorts); this would provide structure for those of us who crave it (me). Someone else with the time and motivation might go through the forum finding threads that relate specifically to the topic d' jour (pardon my liberal use of bastardized Fwench); I am willing to help here under the watchful eye of the Tutorial Moderator(s). For the Tutorial to have real benefit (IMHO), it should be highly moderated or static. Static would probably provide the lowest possible maintenance and time requirements?

I'll help.

Valerie
http://www.skymax-usa.com
http://www.ad-ink.com

Hey, looks like this idea has cought a lot of attention!
Great! I can contribute web space,also, if needed. I aggree that it should be kept simple. Going through the processes of the script would be a nice idea. I find that when I go in search of a tutorial, I look for one that has LOTS of "real" code examples and explains each line of code, down to the most fundamental aspect. I have seen Carol explaining how Important the ";" is in perl. Perhaps a very basic perl tutorial is needed. The one Carol has on her site is great! I think the idea of having a tutorial, with a forum to go along with it, would be nice. Persons going through the tutorial could post their questions, and hopefully learn from reading what ppl have posted. I think the tutorial should be "printer friendly" I like to print them out and study them without always having to be in front of the pc. Plus it helps if you need to cut-paste. Let me know what I can do to get this off the ground. (sorry for the longggggg post) :)

It definitely looks like this is something that people want. I've started writing the beginning of it in my head. Now to get it typed into files.

The pages should probably be indexed in some way -- possibly a search engine like Xavatoria -- so people can find what they want.

Hmmmm. A forum and a tutorial. I haven't found a freeware forum that I like. Possibly we could use DBMan just to allow visitors to ask questions. The questions could then be incorporated into the tutorial.

(I'm throwing out thoughts as they come to me here. No organization!)

I'm a little concerned about having to keep editing .html pages, though. I did that before and it was a real pain, which is why I picked up DBMan in the first place.

I may have a first page tonight, if other things don't get in the way. You can tell me if this is what you had in mind.


JPD

I agree whole-heartedly that the K.I.S.S rule should apply here also, I'm not
suggesting we have things that pop-up all over the place and whizz and whir...
but I think people would benifit from some form of Interactivity - being able to
ask questions when you get stuck at a certain point, or being able to point
out a mistake, etc... And they certainly would'nt interfere with printing.
A simple link at the end of each section would suffice.

There are some decent freeware boards available... UltraBoard isn't bad, though could we
not borrow GT?

Being able to edit the pages live would be nice. Would there be a size-speed issue in
using DBMan though? Alternatively there are plenty of freeware scripts for updating
sites via the web.

- Mark

Astro-Boy!!
http://www.zip.com.au/~astroboy/

Well, I guess the first thing to start with is the actual tutorial. I created a page that is very basic and only goes through the first actual line of the script. If you'd like to look at what I started with, it's at http://www.jpdeni.com/...cript_tutorial1.html.

Other lines wouldn't take nearly as much to define, but I'm assuming that people know nothing at all about programming. One thing builds on another.

Anyway, let me know what you think. Is it readable? Is it too basic? Is it not basic enough? The format was just what I thought of at the moment. I'm completely open to changes.

JPD

Good start, JPDeni!

One suggestion is tying (linking) the tutorial information to other helpful web sites, like other beginner Perl sites and for more robust tutorials, linking to perl.com.

Just my two cents.

Regards,

Eliot Lee

Thanks, Eliot. I'll definitely keep that in mind.


JPD

I didn't catch this thread until today but what you are talking about is alot like the FAQ that I have been setting up. There is a "learn" section where I've pulled out of threads different processes of the script that JPDeni covered in various threads.

It's also organized by categories so people can easily find an area where they want information. It's searchable to help find all related files for that topic.

What I find best about learning how to use the scripts is by reading many threads and following how things are done. In the FAQ I put together, I've left in all the thread references the process and learning to be found in the threads and have taken out the extra conversions to compile the size.

There is also a few example databases where JPDeni has stepped people through the process of creating a database.

Check it out and let me know if this is what is being requested here or how the site could be changed to better serve the purpose. It's just getting started, but it seems it's vey similiar to the requests above.

Unofficial DBMan FAQ
http://webmagic.hypermart.net/

This was compiled from threads beginning in 1998 up until the present time. I still have many thread to go through, as I skipped around some after the new forum.

There won't be much for the time period that JPDeni was gone due to the solutions posted were basically from code she provided prior to that time period.

But I will scan through all the posts anyway as there was good code hackers that popped in from time to time to contribute.

I was waiting to hear back from Alex prior to posting the url for this FAQ to get his feedback, but if it needs to be changed or moved, that will not be a problem.

Let me know if this is what you had in mind Valerie for a FAQ/Tutorial.

Looks good, so far. I don't think it's too simple. Line by line is a real good way to learn. Another thing to consider would be to come up with a flow chart of the script. I'm not sure if that would be a big project, or not. Might help to see the logic of the script. You have a great start. Thanks Carol :)

Okay, if that's what you want, I can continue. Anyone who wants to reformat the pages in any way is welcome to.

I think that Lois's FAQ will go hand-in-hand nicely with my line-by-line explanations. Each has a plus to it and there's no reason that we can't have both. Any way that we can get information to people who need it is a plus.

A flow chart? Gee, haven't made one of those since.... 1982(?) I think I'll do the narrative first. (Besides, it gives me a chance to be long-winded, which I like a lot. ) I also have my hubby here who knows little about programming and nothing about DBMan. He has volunteered to read what I write and tell me if he doesn't understand something.

I expect you all to do that, too, though. If there's a problem with anything, *please* let me know.

JPD

Just wanted to mention that there is already a flow chart. It's right in the DBMan readme file. I think I added a copy to the FAQ, but I'm not sure where I put it right now

Yes, I did remember that flow chart, but I was thinking of something more detailed -- dealing directly with the programming.

JPD
http://www.jpdeni.com/dbman/

That is where I got the idea for a flow chart, from the readme file. It's not very detailed. Maybe a flowchart could come later....:) BTW, here is a nice place to learn the basics on Perl http://www.devshed.com/Server_Side/Perl/
I have some other links too, just have to look them up :) This one has a good start to the very basics. So far, they are up to 3 part. I have learned from this link.

I apologize if this is out of order for those people not using the showflat.pl option in this Thread....



One thing I would recommend is having the tutorials translated into multiple languages...last count...Gossamer Threads, including DBMAN, are being used by users in over 15 countries, which means that attention to languages would have to be taken into account in this current initiative.

The current movement in web development, "localization" meaning making content relevant to multiple cultures/languages around the world relates to this posting. I feel that the tutorials and codes need to be translated not only from advanced to novice programmers, but also from different languages to make the tutorial relevant to them.

Just my two rusty cents!

Take them or throw them in the gutter....



Regards,

Eliot Lee

I use the "show flat" option, so I'm not sure who you're responding too, Eliot. You make a fine point, though.

It looks like this could be a very good collaborative effort (in no particular order) --

-- I'm willing to write the tutorial in English.
-- Possibly those who are fluent in other languages would be willing to translate the tutorial.
-- Probably there needs to be some formatting of the pages beyond what I have done -- so that would mean a web designer's talents would be needed.
-- Someone should go through every other site that deals with Perl they can find and make a page of links. An annotated page, listing the pluses and minuses of the site is something I find helpful.
-- Lois has just about finished her FAQ based on past information from the forum.
-- A flowchart is a really good idea, but I'm not real adept at making them. (I tend to either be too specific or too general.) It would be good if someone could either use the tutorial to make the chart or make it from the script.
-- Some sort of index is vital. We could just use a search engine like Xavatoria as I mentioned before, or we could have an index like would be found at the back of a book. Possibly both.
-- A glossary would be very nice.
-- Some sort of way for people to be able to answer questions would be good, too. I'm not sure if a forum is the answer or if we could just use DBMan or just use formmail for people to send in their questions. (I have considered trying to make a forum using DBMan, but that won't happen until [unless] I get caught up with the mods.)

Anything else?

JPD
http://www.jpdeni.com/dbman/

JP:

I will offer any help that's needed with formatting the pages.

My FAQ has just started still have a long way to go. I have many more files I need to go through and also many more forum threads to check out. This will be an ongoing project for awhile.

I'm not sure what you are referring to with getting a forum started for this tutorial? Why could the discussions not be posted in this forum? I think any discussions would best be placed within the GT forum so it is available to everyone in one location ... but I could be misunderstanding the purpose.

As far as the translations, there have been a few offers of translating for DBMan. I can't remember who it was at this time.

I know that "Pit" offered to translate my existing tutorial into German and I just got another offer of German translating service from another person by private mail.

You are right about using this forum, but I would like to be sure that the section dealt just with questions on the "script" tutorial. It's pretty hard to get people to stay within boundaries. Then again, if I had a forum on my site that was for questions about the tutorial, I can guarantee there would be questions like "how come the userid comes up in one of the fields?"

As for an ongoing project, the tutorial is gonna take a long time, too, so don't worry about getting the FAQ done right away. In fact, even when the tutorial is done and is online, there would probably be a mention that it is an ongoing project.


JPD
http://www.jpdeni.com/dbman/