To save plee, if (s)he has opted to be notified by email each time a reply is made their thread.

Once again the "attitude" comes into play. I am so disappointed to see the reply in the previous thread.

Granted, presumptions of why Carol, Bobsie, Chris###, or any of the others has left the boards is only that, presumptions.

People posting to this forum aren't given an opportunity to say, "Iwant to learn and I'll work my tail off to do it!" because they are shut out from the get-go or chastized for not being able to find the resources to help them begin identifying what changes they even want to make.

Speaking for myself here - when I do happen to find a thread similar similar to what I would like to do - I am TERRIFIED to post a question because of the COCKY REPLIES which have become so frequent on these boards.

I've paid good money for these scripts - I was told personally by Alex and by the GT pages that the forums are for getting help in customizing to my particular application - well, I didn't pay to be insulted or slam-dunked by someone who wants to see how many posts they can rack up!

Likely I am not alone in that I have purchased books - CGI/Perl Cookbook, MySQL & mSQL, Perl in a Nutshell and others - books aren't quite the same as someone HELPING bridge that learning process. (I've even read posts on these boards where some of those who've learned here bought the books months after learning the basics!)

I'm not asking for a hand-out from anyone, never have - never will. I'm willing to do my time learning and more than willing to try checking for resolution on my own before asking for help - Call it a pride thing maybe, I take pride in doing a job and doing it well, I take pride in learning and, I take pride in giving back to the community - online or offline.

I don't claim to be a programmer - never have, never expect to (advanced users/price one mod is soooo ludicrous!). I do want to customize the scripts to suit the needs of my planned usage however. I follow instructions VERY well - only problem is, everything related to these scripts come WITHOUT instructions!

There is no manual identifying how to make changes - we're stuck with the forums for getting answers to questions and, you know what? I spend a chunk of time here each and every day, reading each and every post (check with Alex, he can verify by the access logs.) and get NOWHERE because my available time is spent here reading each and every post!

At this point, I'd have to say, "If you want the scripts to do anything other than basic installation and you are not a programmer, don't bother."

Likely, I have burned my bridges with anyone who would have ever attempted to assist me. At this point, I would have to say, if that's the case, so be it.

Months of frustration, months of reading insults and put-downs when someone asks a question has taken it's toll and it is easier to write off the $900 I've invested than expose myself to the same responses others are receiving!

------------------
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Karen

For the record, Karen, I would gladly help you if it was a problem you had previously attempted to deal with yourself and I was a capable of tackling... no issues with me.

And the idea of moving the thread out of plee's original post is a good one...

Dan, appreciate the comments and also see the irony between my suggestion for a private forum and Lois' "referendum". As for the private forum, I never said it would have to be hosted on this site or be "official" in anyway... the point being, I agree that there can be very low signal-to-noise ratio on these forums at times, but for differing reasons... but again I appreciate your sense of humor.

------------------
The Immuatable Order of Modding
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
1. Read the FAQ, 2. Search the board, 2a. Search the board again, 3. ask the question, 4. back-up, 5. experiment, 6. rephrase question (or better yet, post solution to original question)

[This message has been edited by oldmoney (edited March 05, 2000).]

I apologize if I got carried away with my feelings, I've just been holding back what I've been thinking for months now.

I worked for 6 years as a technical services specialist supporting over 100 computer users . My co-worker had a very bad attitide and would put people down rather then actually providing any help. I guess my own experience and the old frustration of those six years was just brought back into my memory reading through negative threads.

I love helping people and when I provided support I always joked and left people laughing even though they were frustrated dealing with their problems.

I'd just like to see this forum become a friendly helpful place again. I've been trying to think of ways I could be of more help, whether it be to setup some kind of reference to the help topics needed or something like that.

Again, I'm sorry if I got carried away and hope you will not hold it against me.

Karen if I can be of any help getting your database going, I'd be more then willing to help.

Oldmoney I've been wanting to let you know for about a month now that I think it's great how you have helped people in the forum, and it was nice to have you around. You have helped to change the atmosphere

Thanks for the compliment, Lois. No hard feelings on my part, but to follow up on my original post in this silly thread, you may want to make your peace with Eliot, not me...

------------------
The Immuatable Order of Modding
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
1. Read the FAQ, 2. Search the board, 2a. Search the board again, 3. ask the question, 4. back-up, 5. experiment, 6. rephrase question (or better yet, post solution to original question)



[This message has been edited by oldmoney (edited March 05, 2000).]

I would like to state - emphatically - - - If Eliot opts to not participate in the forums, it is the loss of DBMAN users not the reverse.

Eliot is extremely familiar with these scripts - he has excellent situational examples for referencing (his own applications of the scripts) and he has the knowledge to be a prized asset to the forums and to users of DBMAN. - - - I never, ever intented for anyone to doubt or question the abilities of a talented individual.

I tried to very carefully state the emotions that posting to the forum could be a terribly intimidating experience. For my own, one person alone is not responsible for the sense of forboding which I have had in posting.

Hopefully, the knowledgeable people who are willing to share their time at these boards will continue to do so and perhaps give some reevaluation to the harshness of some replies which have become commonplace recently.

Simple courtesy and respect does not cost any of us one iota. (Not to mention, I've seen Thank You's in the form of gift certificates on occassion in these forums.) Respect from both ends - the person asking for assistance & the person sharing their knowledge can make a BIG difference!

I tend to agree with Karen.. although I didn't pay for the code..

MOST people here are friendly, but keep quiet because of a few rotten apples who think they are gods gift to dbman

Like many.. I ended up keeping my mouth shut after being made to feel like a fool because I needed help with my code.. in most cases, it was just a simple syntax error in my codes.. not once.. not even twice.. but on many occassions.. but sometimes when staring at code for hours.. you don't see the simple things.. your looking for the more complex mistakes

So I left for awhile.. became a lurker and read about other prolems and hoped to find something to help me.. after months of this.. I finally began to understand how perl and dbman worked..

I seriously relied on this chat because I am too poor to by the $200 books down here.. hehe.. barely scrape enough together for the internet connection.. but I'm still plodding along.. and I'm willing to help if I think I have learned enough to do so..

In any case Karen.. well said.. know that amongst the snobs (know-alls) there are a few of us that learn from eachother.. and are willing to help eachother in a friendly atmosphere (if one exists)

------------------
-----------
millsie

A smile a day...
keeps the viri' away.


[This message has been edited by millsie (edited March 06, 2000).]

I can't resist throwing in my $.02 here.

As you all know, I too sometimes get irritated with the attitude of some of the posters, but not being a Perl programmer, I need all the help I can get. I just thicken my skin a bit and plow ahead. I believe we need everyone who can contribute to these forums. I do think we can do without some of the unnecessary posts. Anyone who reads these forums knows to search for their answers before posting. The newbies catch on pretty quick or else.

As for the private forum for advanced users, I think that's a terrible idea. It would have the potential for leaving out all us users who are not so advanced and need help the most.

Having said that, I do wish some people would loose the attitude.

------------------
Will
Webmaster
FishHoo! Search index for Fishermen
www.fishhoo.com

Here, here to both Karen and Lois C. as well as a hats off to oldmoney for his diplomatic attempts to explain certain dynamics of this whole situation. Is it just me or since Karen and Lois C. have voiced some concerns that I'm sure many others have had for some time, that the negative "white noise" level has dropped considerably? I've just read the last several posts in the various conferences and actually see nice friendly exchanges of various users helping each other out with "pleases" and "thank yous" instead of the constant badgering about "If you'd done a search" or "Learn some perl" by some self-ascribed "moderator" who

A. Is NOT a moderator in any of these conferences
B. Should do a search himself on the word "moderate"
C. Was a weak code whacker at best, consistently offering up code riddled with syntax or programmatical errors that required others to point out or fix, then adopting a belligerent and self-righteous attitude when anyone called him on it.

I for one am glad to be back participating in the DBMan conference.

------------------
Regards,
jheath1@home.com

Okay...I am glad that you qualified your earlier statements, Kate.

I am not going to respond to specific people's responses...because this public forum is not the place for such exchanges.

However, in general, I will say the following:

1) When I first started using DBMAN back in the fall of 1998, I NEVER demanded code hacks or Modifications. If you read older Topics from that era, you will see that I asked for GUIDANCE in tweaking the scripts. I have always been appreciative in terms of saying THANK YOU and I APPRECIATE YOUR HELP and also sending Amazon gift certificates when the occassion arose that I had extra money to show my gratitude. AND I DO always search the forums and Resource Center before posting a Topic. And when I do post a Topic, I OFTEN ask for people's direction in terms of posting related Topics. And if you notice, I have not posted my own Topic in these Forums in a LONG time. In fact, I think the last Topic I posted was a week and half ago, and before that probably back in November. I have spent the last four months assisting other users.

2) I do not mind assisting people if they have taken the time to find related Topics or attempted to edit the scripts on their own. And the shift in attitudes has been hard to deal with...back in 1998, people were more willing to experiment with codes and ask for guidance, THEN demand code hacks. Recently, people have taken these forums for granted expecting immediate gratification in terms of codes being posted to solve their problems.

3) If you have a beef (and from people from other cultures than America, that means problem) with me or any other user in these forums, you need to do it via private email. If you want to contact me and discuss problems (NOT technical issues as I prefer NOT to discuss technical issues via private email because I tend to repeat myself..and that is what the forums are for), then you can fill out my Contact Form at:

www.anthrotech.com/cgibin/mail/mailer.cgi

However, be aware that if I receive flaming messages via email, I will report you to your Internet Service Provider (ISP).



4) Since some people have problems with "useless" Replies I give to people when their Topics are at the bottom of the forum and I am trying to bring them to the top, so that they can be addressed, then here is what I am going to do:

a) I will ignore all messages that I do not have an immediate message for. Don't bitch if you find that your Topics are not being responded to in a more immediate fashion. And this means that more experienced DBMAN users will have to step up to the needy plate to help other DBMAN users.

b) I will only answer Topics that I can easily provide related Topics rather than stating "Search the Forums".

c) If any Topics show tones of demanding or lack of trying, I will ignore them. Refer to a) for problems that may arise due to this decision.

How about that? Sound better. I hope so.

Have a nice day!

Regards,

------------------
Eliot Lee....
Former Handle: Eliot
* Check Resource Center
* Search Forums


[This message has been edited by AnthroRules (edited March 06, 2000).]

Fair enough Eliot. Nothing I'd say would have to be said privately. Perhaps you've not had an opportunity to read the entire topic (which had started in a diff thread). I do not advocate rudeness, flaming or other inappropriate communication - on this board or elsewhere from anyone.

My referrences to "gift certificates" was intended as a suggestion to those who are recently getting a LOT of help from the forums on a particular problem, then finishing up and leaving - no acknowledgement, no info for the resource center, no thought of a thank you gift certificate or other form of appreciation when someone has taken the time to give a great deal of help.

I do not know you personally and am not making any assumptions on the person you are - as indicated several times in my postings, rudeness, from anyone, at anytime is offensive and intimidating to many people - myself included.



------------------
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Karen

My Take On The Forum.
I feel that I must respond to this post having had similar experiences on this forum.

I have often feel like a big looser when posting a question that has an "easy" solution or that has been covered in the forum. I don't know why people feel the need to leave unkind "tips" on how to improve my programming abilities. I guess that it must be too frustrating for some people to help someone who does not have the same level of perl understanding as they do.

Having said that, I must also say that during the many months that I have spent on this forum, I have only had rude remarks left to me from one one person. However, in general, that person has also been very helpful to me and I am gratefull for their willingness to assist me.

On the whole, this forum has been a wonderful learning experience. I enjoy comming here and reading the posts, and even helping when I can.

I am truely very gratefully for any help that people give to me and I only hope that I can someday be able to give back even more to this forum.

maps & dataKing

Im a fairly new user and have to agree whole-heartly with Karen (alhough I do not know her personally).

I don't pay for the script as im not using it for commercial use, but quite honestly, its sad that this discussion has even happened.

The bottom line for this is - this forum is for HELP. If you're reading the post and don't know - I'd rather see a 0 reply for a few days than get excited when I come here to find out that i must "search" the forum to find my answer.

Geesh.