I have had numerous people email and PM me telling me that they are intimidated by these forums as a form of support for LinksSQL in particular.

I have experienced this as well. Folks have mentioned reading many of my posts and feeling in a similar situation as I am in.

I am a part of many other tech related forums where the support for a product or service is mainly on bulletin boards. I am usually able to learn the things I need to learn from those communities plus a little investigation.

Unfortunately, this community seems very different. If a question has been asked once...ever... it seems that the status quo is that it is encouraged to scold the person publicly for ever asking it again. It is also assumed that they haven't done a search on the subject (when in my case, I certainly always search...)

I wish there were room on the boards to ask the same question in different ways until you understand it. I wish that folks had a sense of encouragement in their posts.... ahhhhhhhhh.

I have been to Vancouver and found it to be a very friendly, mellow, and welcoming place. I wish the forums felt like that. :)

Just esspressin' my opinion...... :) And truthfully...hoping for change. I know, on the boards that I manage...keeping the "tone" positive and welcoming takes a lot of work.

Anyone else feel similarly?

Hi Evoir,

I have to agree with you on this. I tend to not ask or answer questions myself for that very reason. I try to go elsewhere if I have any questions. I have helped a couple of people via PM because they didn't want to post in the forum. I assumed it was for this reason. That said, this is a public forum and everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. If they wish to belittle or scold others, that is their prerogative. I myself would rather not see a reply or maybe politely direct them to the search link. I guess after a while it might get a little old though. I think Alex said something about redoing the FAQ/Resource area. Maybe that will help. Who knows? That's my opinion :)

Regards,
Charlie

Evoir,

Thanks for having the courage to post what you did. Although I haven't posted before, I have spent hours reading these forums and have come to the same conclusion as you. I am impressed by the products this company has produced, LinksSQL in particular, and the responsiveness of the management. But I am disturbed at times by the tone of the forums.

My perception is that the forums are dominated by experienced users, and this intimidates the novices like me. I think the heart of the problem is the lack of solid documentation for LinksSQL. For the price I paid, I would expect a very thick and detailed manual to accompany it.

Using forums for support is wonderful once you have attained a basic understanding of the software and how all the parts fit together. But until that happens, a detailed user manual is a necessity. I have received a partially completed manual from GT for which I am grateful. Unfortunately, it is not very detailed, and I still find that I'm pretty much stumbling around in the dark.

Maybe what we need is a discussion area just for beginners with stupid questions It would have to be frequented by very patient types.

Cheers to all.

Hey, now that's not a bad idea. A newbies area for each product. :) Like a "Welcome Wagon" of sorts.

I like that.

Curious what other's think of this. And Alex, does this kind of idea work for you?

I think there are two sides to everything.

Some questions are asked so often, or people show up for their first post, asking a question that has been asked/answered a dozen times in the past month.

This is the reason for all the newsgroups with their FAQ's ... and the mindset took off for most things.

I've tried to maintain an FAQ that was somewhat better indexed than the forum, using the keywords people are looking for. But, with the release of 2.0x and it's multiple versions and changes, I haven't been able to keep up with it.

For most of the basic Links SQL questions, though, the FAQ area does answer, or point to, answers.

For Links SQL 2.x, most questions are still relatively new, although certain questions like category templates, where do change the category display, and others have been asked to death, and s really _simple_ search of the forum would yeild several different answers to each of those questions.

Links 2.1 will have documentation, and potentially the new "filetype" field. At that time, the stability of the project will be pretty well set, and people can add-to and modify the documentation.

It would also be nice to see an on-line documentation system with a place for people to leave comments/suggestions. The editor for each area could periodically review the comments, make the changes, add the examples or such that make sense, or leave the comments that applied to a specific situation such as installing on a different OS or in a particular situation.

So understand, that the "experienced" users may give an explanation 1 or two, or 87 times, but after that, it gets really boring -- and quite irritating -- to type the same thing over and over, if instead of the user asking the question, they did a "searcH" on the same words they asked for.

Now, if a user does a search, and says they still don't get it, and point out the area or part they don't get, then that helps everyone (maybe) by clarifying something that was unclear, or maybe had more than one interpretation.

There are two sides to every issue. Courtesy has to be afforded on BOTH sides. Remember, the "experienced" people are just like you, running their own sites, living their own lives (???), and going to their "real" jobs, and they don't get paid for sitting here answering the same questions over and over -- or, actually, for answering _ANY_ questions at all. It's all done volunteer, and perhaps you (the people complaining) need to look at why they are complaining, and try to offer up solutions that take into account everyone's position.

Just saying "people need to be nicer" or "the experienced folks need to spend more time with the newbies" doesn't cut it.

No matter how much someone gives, someone will always want more. That person can "ruin" the first person's feeling across the board. Remember, one bad apple may not spoil the whole bunch, but it _CAN_.

If there were half as many "Thank you" posts as there were complaint posts, the whole atmosphere might be different.

...... ...... end transmission.



PUGDOG® Enterprises, Inc.
FAQ:http://LinkSQL.com/FAQ
Plugins:http://LinkSQL.com/plugin

Pugdog,

I make it a point to say thank you when someone offers help. Might have missed one or two along the way....But I try.

And in fact, no-one is required to answer anyones questions. It is not required.

Actually, what I am hoping for is something coming from GT. Perhaps new areas of the boards for newbies... perhaps hiring someone who can do support via the board...someone who's job it is to help us out.

The user's manual will be great. And I have to repeat here: I really do believe this is some of the best software out there. (mainly from word of mouth) but I am frustrated and close to giving up.

Like I said, I have been a part of many communities on the web that offer support via a forums area. This is the most curt and sort of "lack of tolerance for newbies" forums I have been a part of. And I am *invested* in getting the help because we bought the software many months ago and still are not using it.

so, please... don't feel obligated to answer posts that annoy you. The whole point is that this software can make our lives easier, dude. If it helps you to help me out...cool. if not, hopefully someone else can. And hopefully GT can hire someone to take care of all of it's newbie support questions. :)

"No matter how much someone gives, someone will always want more. "

Pugdog, I just went back and read your post again. Do you fee burdened? It sounds like a bad relationship: no matter how much you give, they still want more from you. Even when you've given all you've got. (I'm not being sarcastic here)

My sense is that a community is something that needs fostering, needs nourishment. Something has to be given back for the more experienced folks to feel of more value.

Newbies are always going to be hungry for knowlege. And the more they learn on forums like these (in a pozitive environment) the more they tend to give back to the community. I've seen it over and over again. heck, I do it now too! (meaning, I give back to communities that helped me)

But, one of the probelms I find here, is that I am nervous to ask a question. I don't find a genreosity of spirit. I find folks who are burdened with answering my dumb questions over and over.

I search for things and I see over and over how folks are scolded for asking a question that was already answered somewhere else on the forum. I look for hours but still don't find the kind of help I am looking for.

Now, all that said, Alex has gone out of his way (in email and phone) to help me and probably many others, but he can't possibly do this all by himself...

maybe it is time to either pay the moderators for doing support via the forum or hire someone to do support via the forum.

And I still like the idea of a newbies area.

Paul wrote: "Also, ALL THE SUPPORT IS FREE, so be grateful, even if you get a rude reply - at least it is a FREE REPLY. Fair enough if you were paying for support and someone was rude but you AREN'T so deal with it, otherwise "experienced" users will get so annoyed that they WILL just up and leave, like Jerry for example."

wow. I guess we hit the nail on the head.

It doesn't have to be like this. Really. Really.

Why would anyone want to "help" anyone else rudely?And if you are trying to help someone out, and they are rude... simply disengage.

The only way I can understand this kind of thinking is that folks are really burnt out. Nothing left to give.

If that is true, what keeps you here giving support? Why do you keep answering newbie questions if it makes you unhappy?

I've been coming to these forums for over a year now, and myself, like most other people have asked a question or two that probably could have been answered with a little more digging in the forums. I admit it, I'm not afraid to say I've asked a question that has been answered before. But overtime as you get used to how these forums work and how long they've been here you come to relize that there is a wealth of knowledge in them. In the beginning you might not realize this for whatever reason(it's the first forum you've ever posted in, new to perl, whatever).

I also have the opinion (note "opinion") that if it frustrates you that you've answered a post a thousand times, then don't answer it again. Just leave well enough alone, someone will answer it, possibly a "newbie" that has experienced the same problem and, thus, they will increase their knowledge and become an experienced user. So, basically, if you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all. That's not meant to be mean towards any one person, just a friendly reminder for you neighborhood Mr. Rogers .

Later,
Paul

http://www.fullmoonshining.com for Pearl Jam Fans

Evoir,
Don't be nervous, it's the internet :)

I have no idea what your trying to accomplish but, when I have a problem and can't find the answers in the forum, I use Gossamer Support. (I guess if your trying to revise the scripts that might not work.) They've always answered my requests within 24 hours and have even gone out of their way.

I think they do monitor the forums because them seem to post quite a few answers. So, I guess they already pay a support staff.

I would also have to say that their are a lot of people who help without being rude. From my own experience it can be frustrating but, keep trying though. If you can't find your answer, keep posting or try support, sooner or later you'll get there.

Good Luck

PaulWilson,

I think you are reading my posts as attacks on you and the other folks who you mentioned. I'm not attacking you, rather asking questions.

I have said many times that I do searches, often the results are buried in many many pages of folks scolding newbies for asking a question that has been already answered somewhere in the list of search results.

Thanks Clueless and cranepaul,

I appreciate the kind words. Indeed, I have been around many support forums before. And have been around this one for a year (I think). This one has a very different feel than the other ones I frequent.

I consider myself a newbie to GT becasue I haven't mastered the software (at all) and have a lot of dumb questions.

Just a point of fact and my 2 cents worth...

Having been involved with GT only for the past 6 months or so, and having had the opportunity of setting up about half a dozen sites and incorporating Links and chat sites into them, I quickly realized that this board was totally unorganized in it's setup and therefore not worth the effort to try and locate an answer by one's self...

...The primary reason for the individuals in the know to become totally frustrated with repetative questions, is the fact that this board doesn't have the ability to categorize items in proper order...

The abiltiy of finding an answer to a guestion via the search field that this board provides, is totally inadaquate and provides absolutely no conclusive results other than locating a multitude of threads that incorporate the keywords searched... Because of the fact that there are so many repetative questions and answers to those questions such as: "search the site", the individual looking for an answer to his/her question just give's up and then repeats the same question again...

I have bugged Paul's butt about setting up a properly organized forum/chat site for months now, as I know he and I have the ability to do so, but for some odd reason he keeps on ignoring me come's back here for more... I guess it's because of his dedication to GT and his knowledge about the product(s) that Alex produce's...

One of these day's I'm gonna fly over to the UK and smack that boy across da back o de 'ed... :-)))))))

I hereby give public notice: Paul... If u don't do it, I will...

...ed

Hi Evoir,

Thanks for your comments. You are not alone, this is something I have heard before, and I recognize as a problem.

Things we are currently working on include:

* Links SQL 2.1.0 which will include a full user manual (approximately 90 pages with walk through on things from editing templates, to adding custom fields, to basic funcitonality). We have a draft done, and are probably looking at about two weeks before 2.1.0 is out.
* A support tracking system. Requests sent in via our support forum are now managed much better.

Things we are planning on dedicating more resources to once one of our new projects is finished:

* A manager dedicated to handling the resouces area, and not only validating/approving resources (which lately has just turned into a client featured site), but actively working on building up the faq.
* A stronger precense in the forum. I still manage to post 40 to 50 messages a week, but I'm working on slowly getting other people in the office involved.

What we need from people are:

* Veteran users to not post the knee-jerk reply, but rather submit it to the resource center as a FAQ. We will work on formatting it better and making it look nice, but just identifying it as something that is a very common question. This will also help us in building better documentation.

* Novice users to read the available resources before posting, and to realize that this is a user contributed community. Unless you see the word 'Staff' under the users name, they are answering on their own time, please respect that. If you need immediate help, you can always contact us in a variety of ways.

Please let me know if you have any questions or comments about this. I really do value the community surounding our products.

Cheers,

Alex

--
Gossamer Threads Inc.

Alex,

Thank you for your reply. One thing I don't understand. You wrote "Unless you see the word 'Staff' under the users name, they are answering on their own time, please respect that."

I am not sure what you mean. What does "respect that" mean? If folks are answering on their own time, they should only answer if they feel comfortable answering and engaging.

I have seen such rudeness disguised as politeness here it is quite unbelieveable. And most often than not it comes from the same people. I have a PM in my mailbox where someone is warning me "not to cross him" because I didn't understand and questioned his offering of "free" support.

I'm telling you all, I have been on many support forums, and I run a forum myself with more than 4,000 members. It is a sytematic thing. I mean, look at this thread and the way some folks have responded. I am just talking about building community here and folks are freaking out.

I appreciate the work you are doing, Alex. But... it seems to me that you all need a community manager or something. (Where *is* Mr. Rogers when you need him? )

Maybe you could have someone from outside this community (your partner, mother or sister) read *just this thread* and get some feedback as to how folks are treating each other around here. If you take a look from the outside, it is pretty startling.

Cheers,
Evoir

What I mean by that is it's not all one sided. There are a lot of threads where people expect fast replies, and get rude when they don't get it, or expect free mods and complain when it doesn't work the first time.

Please don't confuse this with me saying one excuses the other, as it clearly doesn't.

Cheers,

Alex

--
Gossamer Threads Inc.

Thanks for explaining. That would make sense :)

Hi,

This is an interesting subject, and I think there are definately several different user groups that both use GT's products and the support forums.

• Beginners (Newbies) - They're just starting out with their sites or are new to GT's products and have little or no knowledge of perl, mysql, scripts, servers, etc. and can't really modify install things without a fair bit of help and guidance, and quite a lot of hand-holding

• Intermediate (Twiddler's) - They have some knowledge of the workings of their sites/servers and can do some basic mods and tweaks, and understand a little bit of what they're doing, but they still need help from time to time with really complex stuff

• Advanced (Boff's) - They have a wide range of experience and almost encyclopedic knowledge of GT's products, perl, mysql, linux, NT, and other related server/programming stuff and can do 10 things at once with their eyes closed and hands tied behind their backs ... lol

I think Newbies need a hand with discovering and using the forum Search tool, and could benefit from having the most common queries bundled together in some form of index such as a FAQ, especially for new installations. It may also help, as has already been suggested, to have a couple of 'newbie' forums where people can dip-their-toes and post their questions in a less 'hostile' environment (and I don't mean personally hostile, I just mean that the newbie areas would be less overwhelming, friendlier and therefore easier to get the hang of and use). This could also give people a step-up to becoming Twiddler's ...

Twiddler's should get along fine in either forum as they'll be able to explain things in-depth to the Newbie's and won't be frightened of the Boff's - they'll have a better idea of what they want to do or be able to explain a little better about their problems (with their scripts/sites, not their lives ... ).

Boff's will be able to negate the frequently repeated requests for the same information/mods/etc. and 'talk tech' with each other without being frustrated by the repeated posts from Newbie's.

Of course, anyone can read and join-in with any of the forums and that should never change IMHO, but I think it might help to section-off the types of requests into more defined groups so that people posting replies in the Newbie's forums will understand that they have to give that little bit more of an explanation and possibly more in-depth instructions. In the same token, Newbie's will feel that little bit easier about posting their 'stupid' questions (I mean feeling like their questions are 'stupid', not that the questions are stupid - there's no such thing, right!!).

I have benefitted from GT's forums in many more ways than simply learning about their products, and I've always enjoyed using the forums. I've had no-end of help from many of the Twiddler's and Boff's here, and was once a complete and total Newbie so I understand that it can all seem a little daunting and overwhelming in the beginning.

Ultimately, it's up to the individual users of the forums to set the 'tone' and if a few people are a little less patient than you'd like or post unconstructive replies, you've just got to learn to ignore them - as opposed to replying with similarly 'useless' replies!!!!

Just my personal thoughts .....

All the best
Shaun

Sorry, just another thought ....

I wonder if it would be possible to give people an 'Experience Level' setting in their profile that would be displayed under their name with their posts?

This could give other users a guide when replying!

All the best
Shaun

I always thought this was a good explanation - universal -
http://www.somethingawful.com/guides/forums/

lol.


BTW, qango, with respect, isn't the posting number and reg date (not to mention previous posts), a much less time consuming, dynamic and objective method of ascertaining experience level?

Hey quago,

Nice to meet you. Thanks for your thoughts.

One other thing: when more experienced folks respond to a newbie question with a "do a search" or "we've discussed that before" or even a very precise answer that doesn't *really explain it to a newbie*.... it seems like it cuts off conversation. Like no-one else responds because "the answer was given" even though, as I am a newbie, I might need more information to understand the situation. I find that often my questions get answered very quickly, and probably very accurately, but in a way I don't understand.

I really recommend a "newbie" area for each product. I think it will help the newbies and twiddlers get to know each other more :)

andy_c,

That's hilarious!

Thanks for the link.

Here's my 2 cents............

Some of the most rude posts come from the 'moderators' of this board. Then when their rudeness is responded to they simple edit or delete their posts. They claim to be 'helping' (like Mother Teresa) but, what their really doing is promoting and selling their services.

Seems to me that Gossamer should at least recognize who these people are and remove them, at least as "Moderators". I would think that as a Moderator of this board they must represent Gossamer Threads, it's beyond me why a company would endorse such representation.

What it comes down to is that this forum is a extension of Gossamer Threads. Gossamer made a decision that this forum would be their 'how to manual' and ultimately they're responsible for the 'feel' of this forum.


(I'm sure I'll now never receive a response to any post I make)

I personally don't feel that I, as a moderator or user, have made rude posts. If I ever have I apologise for myself as I never really mean it. sitting at the computer can really make me uptight

I won't say anything about other moderators, as it will probably lead to an argument

As for GT's position in this, it is very hard for them to keep the forums under control, but rest assured rude posts that are made by moderators ARE reported!

Andy

webmaster@ace-installer.com
http://www.ace-installer.com

The other 50% or so of rude posts come from general users -- who, BTW, can also edit and delete their posts as well.
I doubt if anyone is truely here for the sole purpose of promoting their own services. However, quite a bit of users -- not just moderators -- have links to their websites and/or offer installation/modification services.
If GT were to remove rude moderators, it makes only sense to remove rude users as well. why eliminate only half the problem?
But they don't. The moderators represent the forum community. If they were paid, then they'd be representing GT. Otherwise, it remains a public forum with selected leaders.
I doubt GT endorses unprofessional behavior
agreed
No, the end user is responsible for the outlook of the forum. My guess is that this forum is "provided as is, without warranty or responsiblity" like every free service in the world.

--Drew
Links 2.0 stuff
http://www.camelsoup.com

I know this is very Martha Stewart -ish, but here goes:

On my boards, about once a month, I remind folks that they are what makes the community so great. It means that everyone act in a welcoming manor, that they treat each other with respect and dignity, and they they are the ones responsible for the positive vibe.

Now, that said, it is not really true. LOL. I post those notes once a month, I reward positive behavoir, I don't tolerate crap on the boards. In other words, a community is an alive and sometimes volitle place. Someone has to play god and "encourage it along".

It aint just going to happen on its own. :)

Junko,

I agree that users and moderators should be treated the same.

My point on Moderators is that, in a way, they do represent Gossamer. How did they become a moderator?

Paid or not should not matter, they volunteered and are responsible for this forum. It's up to them to set the tone.

They are suppose to put out the fires not fan the flames.

well i have to agree with a lot of these posts here, i have searched the forums for a few days now and all i see is Anthro saying time and time again search the bloody forums or this has been answered before.

Why does he bother, go home, if you can't be bothered answering do us a favour, don't post a message at all

RWhite and Evoir:
GT has little interaction with the forum users and that's why they've appointed moderators. The moderators act as a intermediary between the the community and the company, but I disagree that they are directly representative of the company and responsible for the behavior of the users. Moderators can, of course, encourage positive attitudes, but cannot control the users.

billyaged2:
Anthrorules has a very good reason to post "please search the forum". 9 times of 10, your question has been asked to death. These types of replies are done mostly out of respect for GT's server space. We don't need to be flooding the forum with redundant posts. However, it's my opinion that if it's found that certain questions are repeated, the answer should be added to the resource center and then linked to whenever the question is asked in the future, regardless of the nature of the post (the top repeated question or not), and no more "search the forum" messages should be added.

--Drew
Links 2.0 stuff
http://www.camelsoup.com

Hi Junko, I was in two minds too mention Anthro's name, its not solely his fault. I do agree with you that a better source of resources should be made available. As you said, instead of people saying please seach the forums they could be instead refered to a certain FAQ topic instead.

Junko,
I think the fact that Alex has nearly 4000 posts in this forum suggests GT has a lot of interaction in these forums.

They also advertise this as their support forum, if that's not a direct representation, I don't know what is.

Hm.. here are some general guidelines for posting to the forum:
The resource center should be searched before posting a new topic.
Then if no solution is found, please search the forum.
Then if you still can't find a solution, please do post your question.
Be as detailed as posible. Post a link or two to threads/resources where similar issues have been addressed.
If you've found what you think is the answer to your post, but just need further clarification, let us know.
Be patient if you don't get an immediate reply.
If you find the solution to your problem yourself, please share it with others.

--Drew
Links 2.0 stuff
http://www.camelsoup.com

Alex is generally the only GT staff member that actually visits the forum. And even then, generally only visits the Links SQL 2.x and Gossamer-Mail forums. There are about a dozen forums that rarely get a message from Alex or GT at all. This is what I mean by "little interaction".

--Drew
Links 2.0 stuff
http://www.camelsoup.com

WOW!!!
Just reading this whole post, just makes me think of the real need for a users manual on this product. (Links SQL is what I use) People who don't know getting frustrated at people who do know, and vice-versa.

I'm sure it's been said before but, give me a book (like.... LinksSQL for Idiots), let me read it, then when I come to this forum I won't ask such stupid questions.

Then instead of 'Search the forums' you can get an answer like 'read chapter 2' for all your idiotic posts. :)

I know I said this in an earlier post, but I really do believe that there would be a lot fewer "stupid" questions if LinksSQL had a proper, detailed manual. I may be a newbie here, but I'm not a newbie everywhere, so I often know when I'm asking a question that will appear silly to experienced users. And I do search the forums for an answer first, but often the "answers" I find are themselves confusing to me, a newbie.

I'm not talking here about a simple how-to manual that says things like "The file menu contains 6 commands. The first command...etc., etc." What is really needed is a "LinksSQL for Dummies" or "LinksSQL in 21 Days". Something aimed at the novice user. I would be more than willing to fork out $50 or more for a really good book or manual. I've learned most of what I know about computing from reading books like this and practicing on my own. Then, when I ask questions on forums, I can ask with more confidence and appear not so dumb.

If any of you are considering writing such a thing, make sure you do so in consultation with writers, editors, users, etc. Most manuals are useless because they are either trivial or go way over the heads of the people who need them most.

I've seen part of the forthcoming manual for LinksSQL, and from what I've seen, it is not nearly detailed enough. It's very how-to oriented and doesn't help give the "big picture" of how this whole system hangs together. It's helpful to a degree, but much better documentation is needed.

Just my 2 cents.

Cheers to all.

Clueless,

Wow, that was weird! I apologize if I appeared to reiterate what you said in my previous post. When I logged in, I didn't notice the second page of responses and so I hadn't seen your post when I wrote mine. Pretty amazing that we both talked about Links for Idiots/Dummies. Which one are you, idiot or dummy? :)

As Alex has mentioned on a few occassions in the Forums, GT has hired a technical writer who will be writing robust and user-friendly manuals for all GT products. I think it will be a matter of time (short) that manuals will be available for all GT products...at least the more active ones, including LINKS SQL, GM, and DBMAN SQL.

Regards,

Eliot Lee

cco,
I'm the Idiot ..Your the Dummy. Dummy! :)


Oh... and I'm glad someone in the world thinks like me. For a long time I thought it was just the Prozac. :)

I resisted the urge to post so far but..it would be great if the manual (the "links sql for dummies"..or any other gt script) was very detailed. I have read they are writing something rigth now so I guess my opinion (as long as I am not the only one who feels this way) migth help. I' ve read books where they develop some applications as examples...examples that I couldn't care less about.

It would be really good to have a book (online or offline) that you can use to learn pearl/programming and links sql (or any other GT program). I guess this is beyond what they are planning for links sql manual but I always thought a "experienced user" could do something like that. Now maybe GT can finish this "manual" and then add a more complete one and charge something for it (the manual should be enough for users wanting to learn everything about Links sql..the extended version could be all that plus more knowledge on the way the code works (kind of like a perl book)).

Anyway this is just an idea that I had for some time...I would love to know more about the program and be able to apply that knowledge to other perl things like my own hacks (or other programs)

I'm just an Clueless idiot but..........

What many of the veterans of this forum need to understand is that when most of us purchased this program we thought a Perl was a 'Pearl'.

I myself used ASP and MS Access to create directories and the way I found out that Gossamer existed and Links was available is that someone didn't change their validate email message.

When I first came here I thought it was the answer to my prayers. But, there's a learning curve. What you think will be easy if you buy this program, turns out to be a pain. (I now have to dust my Frontpage, ASP, and Access books) I guess the really frustration in being a "Newbie" is that you know (or hope?) your not an idiot, your just ignorant.

I was once ignorant to the fact that a Caesar salad came with 'Caesar dressing'.

'Can I take your order?'

"Yes, I'll have the Caesar salad with Italian dressing"

Now, If that's not ignorant.....

(TRUE STORY the worst is I had to put the Italian dressing on the Caesar salad and eat it. 'Wouldn't want anyone to know I was ignorant')


I guess my point is (if there is one) is that stupid and ignorant are two totally different things. And the most likely reason that that people take offense to the answers they get in this forum is that they're not stupid, they're ignorant.

And that's where a manual comes in!

(before you all abuse me for calling people ignorant, look it up in a dictionary.)

no no, i'm the idiot! hahahaha

I meant ignorant. Or clueless.

No matter if we have the best FAQ and users manual, we still need to be able to talk to each other and feel comfortable with asking for help from each other. Also so we can feel comfortable offering help to others. This is why I started this topic. So we can work on building community, so we can get to know one another....:)

IMHO, these forums serve the purpose of technical support and information gathering, not CHIT CHAT. As referenced a few other times in this FORUM, there are plenty of other places on the Net to chit chat, but not here in GT forums, IMHO.

Regards,

Eliot Lee

I wrote "we still need to be able to talk to each other and feel comfortable with asking for help from each other. Also so we can feel comfortable offering help to others." and you call that chit chat?

Eliot (I think) was referring to:


Installs:http://wiredon.net/gt
FAQ:http://www.perlmad.com

Yes...that is what I was referring to.

Regards,

Eliot Lee

What would motivate you (or anyone) to help anyone else, or me to help someone else if there is no sense of community?

Clearly, it is not working now. I mean, folks are saying (on both sides if you will) that they are uncomfortable. The folks who know more are annoyed that people don't do searches. The folks who don't know much are searching and not finding the answer or being confused, and getting scolded or very short answers.

I'm not talking about having coffee and donuts, I'm talking about creating a forum perhaps for folks to talk about How we use LinksSQL or something like that. A place where we can talk about the practical applications of these applications.

I suggest we open some new areas of the forums:
1) a newbies area for each product. This would be a place for newbies to feel free to ask the dumbest questions.... and the folks who want to help those folks learn can engage in thsoe forums.

2) a more conversational forum for each product-based on "How do you use LinksSQL on your site" or "How do you use DBmanSQL on your site" Maybe each area should be called Practical Applications of __________.

This could be a place where folks talk about the strategies they employed while setting up a personals site with DBman, or a content management tool with LinksSQL.

And the truth be told, no matter how good the FAQ is, some people still need good old fashion interaction to learn things. Not saying that everyone has to participate. Folks who don't want to build community can just not engage in it. Simple as that.

That is what the Links SQL Discussion or the general Discussion Forums are for. No need to create additional forums, IMHO.



Again, that is what the "Discussion" forums are for, and also there are Site In Action sections for all GT products where you can peruse other product web sites and if you want to discuss strategy with them, then email them via their web sites.

Regards,

Eliot Lee

i haven't seen a 'community' anything like this. i use another software (message board) created by another company but their support forums are much more supportive than this one. I don't want to put anyone down because I have been helped a lot here by the moderators. It's just that in every single reply I get it's either sarcastic or downright rude. It's very discouraging for newbies like me. We all want to learn the ins and outs of the software and for us to do that we ask questions. It's also funny that whenever I am directed to another link by a moderator, I read the same nostalgic message wherein a newbie is being reprimanded for asking the same question.

See, searching for an answer isn't quite that simple because not all of us have the same problems and most of us do not know what query we should make with regards to the terms used in the software.

It's very frustrating you know, when you try to search for something that isn't there and at the same time avoid posting a message at the risk of getting another slap in the face. There actually came a point when i was close to quitting and switch to another search engine program. But what can i do, i've spent so much time on this one i can't turn back now.

Let's make this a community for learning, not for a battle of wits. that way achieving our goals will be more of a pleasant experience than a struggle.

This is why I said we should leave this thread to rest now, because everyone has a different view and the more replies there are the more likely it is to spark up another argument.

It is neither solely veterans/moderators faults, nor members faults - it is a combination of both. Arguing the toss won't get anyone anywhere as Glennu said. We are just going round in circles.

We have established that members and veterans are both unhappy with the situation so lets move on from there and do something about it rather than brewing over the same issues.

Installs:http://wiredon.net/gt
FAQ:http://www.perlmad.com

Drewboy, thanks for posting your thoughts. I appreciated reading them. I think... well, you all know far too well what I think. :)

Truthfully, I am happy we've been having this discussion. I'm eager to hear from other folks who feel similarly, who wish to have a friendlier atmosphere here. Also looking for suggestions. (like, what's different about this forum from other ones you've been a part of?)

No one has to participate. If you feel the conversation is over, just don't continue to be a part of it. Why shut it down?

I believe the solution to all this is very clear. First of all, you cannot possibly be serious in hoping to change the attitude of some members here. Having worked in social services for many years, I have come to realize that personalities are unchangeable however you put the argument to them for change.

Secondly, to avoid the rude ones upsetting everyone, Alex spelt out the answer to this a while back: Rude People - do not post if you cannot offer constructive help! - requires no personality adjustment for that one, but should be made more apparent perhaps as a term of membership to the forums.

Lastly it has to be said that all large script program packages are complex, even for experienced users and put on top SQL and the thousands of different configuration of Apache etc, we have a melting pot of complexity that demands a self understanding of a least the basics of databases etc, even after the much anticipated manuals are released.

This is no Plug-and-Play stuff here!

In conclusion...

1: For people upset by discourtesy: See section #1 & #2
2: For people frustrated by "silly" questions: : See section #2
3: For newbies who think this is like working with windows: See section #3

My thoughts concluded.


Eraser:
Insight Eye
http://www.insighteye.com/

Evoir:

Take a look at wwwthreads forums (wwwthreads.com, this forum software) for a good example of a really friendly and helpful community.

this is just an example of what I consider a very good community, not an opinion on this one, or on this particular topic (which seems to be more complex than just giving an example)

Actually, I rank this above the w3t forum, in general. It has more traffic, and more going on. The w3t forum is a few regulars and much the same situations as here.

PUGDOG® Enterprises, Inc.
FAQ:http://LinkSQL.com/FAQ
Plugins:http://LinkSQL.com/plugin

Maybe my post was somewhat misleading. I didn't meant a general "ranking" of the forum. I would say that both serve it purpose well, so I would rank them a tie. Both are very important in making a decision to buy the software (i.e. I wouldnt buy the software if both were not there...I own a copy of wwwthreads and not yet links sql, but for other reasons).

What I mean is that I see a somewhat more 'friendly' and 'relaxed' attitude at wwwthreads. Of course the fact that wwwthreads community is smaller (and they only have one product) makes relationships easier...

patagon,

I am involved in a few forums, vbulletin and also futurequest forums, both of which are friendly and helpful. I think the vetrans enjoy the place as much as newbies. And I think both groups benefit.

I hung out at WT3 for a while when I was considering buying their forums software, but found it was a really small group of people and wasn't as helpful as I'd like. IMHO. And, I ended up liking vB better.

My whole point is that I have been a part of wholesome communities on the web that support a specific product. I have spelled out what I want, but am looking to hear from more folks who want change as well. :)

Hi,

I'm beginning to think that it boils down to some simple things that people could do whilst participating in these, and for that matter, any support or community based forums;

• Use common courtesy - be polite when asking for assistance, or offering advice. If someone is rude to you, whatever their experience and/or status, ignore it and ignore them in that thread. Individual slagging matches don't benefit anyone and the added hostility only works against the ideal of 'support'!!

It takes milliseconds to post a knee-jerk reply to someone you think has been rude to you. Yes, sometimes people can be rude, but re-read the reply slowly and think about what has been said before you go attacking someone, better still, just learn to ignore it. Believe me when I say that you are not going to "lose face" with anyone else in forums if you simply ignore a rude reply!!!


• Use a bit of common sense - where possible do try to search for answers first. The GT forums all have a fair amount of archive posts, many of which cover the most common problems encountered with installation and setup (you're most likely not the first person to have this problem!), and some of which will cover the popular modifications that most people want to use (it has most likely been thought of before or at least discussed).


• Try to be patient - sure, you might be in a pickle or your site may have fallen apart and you may be unbelievably frustrated by the problems you are having, but ultimately the GT forums are populated with people just like you who offer their advice and support for free, in whatever spare time they have.

Sometimes it may take a little while before an experienced user reads your post and is able to offer you a solution or assistance. Sometimes the problem may be so unique to your setup that no-one has encountered it yet, in which case it may take some time for people to 'discover' what the problems is and how the fix should be approached. Occasionally, there isn't a fix, or the feature you want hasn't been done before, or isn't do-able, in which case you may not get a reply at all.


• Use a helpful Subject title - sum-up the 'core' issue/problem/suggestion/bug in the subject as best you can, using some key words that give other people a clear idea of what your thread is about. Here's a selection of posts that I've pulled directly from the GT forums with unhelpful subjects first, and suggested helpful subjects afterwards;

GT:Mail - Variable - Variable to show login domain
GT:LinksSQL - Question - Do users have to register to add a link?
GT:LinksSQL - Unknown Tag - Confirmation email error - Unknown Tag
GT:LinksSQL - RAM - How much RAM does LinksSQL use?
GT:DBman - Help me please - Problem adding a new user
GT:DBman - Basic question - Pass info to a HTML form

These are just a few, but improving the key information in the subject gives regular forums users a chance to see very quickly if it's something they can help you with, especially if it has been encountered before.

---------------

I apologise for rambling, and I appreciate that much of this has already been said, but I do think these are key issues for people to consider and that good manners and a bit of common sense is really all that is needed to participate in, and enjoy using, GT's support forums.


All the best
Shaun

Yup. I gotta agree with you there Shaun. If everyone would show a little bit more curtesy when answering / making posts, these forums would be a much nicer place (not that they are'n nice at the moment, ). I'm sure you can see where I'm comming from.

Andy

webmaster@ace-installer.com
http://www.ace-installer.com

qango,

thank you. I think you spelled out the best solutions.

On my forum, even though it does take up bandwidth and server space, I put simple "rules to live and post by" in the footer of every forum page. The rules are a bit different becasue the community servers a different purpose, but that was folks are reminded every time the go to post, what the expected community standards are. I think it keeps people more within the expected behaviors. Any chance of GT coming up with a set of community expectations and placing it in the footer?

Qango,
Excellent suggestions!

I think your suggestion of;

'• Use a helpful Subject title ' should be highly visable when anyone is making a new post. This alone would make the forum much more search friendly.

Thanks,

Also threads with a solution to any problem should be added to the FAQ by the person who started the thread.

Installs:http://wiredon.net/gt
FAQ:http://www.perlmad.com

Yeah, that would be helpful....BUT GT would need to keep it up to date

Andy

webmaster@ace-installer.com
http://www.ace-installer.com

You know, I don't think there is currently a "forum rules" link. Or am I missing something?

Perhaps, if GT doesn't want to clutter the pages by putting forum rules in the footer, a link could be made near the FAQ link? "Forum Rules"

I know, I know.... we are all supposed to adults and behave well, but sometimes it is nice to ahev it spelled out for ya....

(am I missing something? are there a listing of forum rules or guidelines?)

If there isn't take qango's post and make it. You can always change it later!

I think his suggestions were the most constructive post in this whole thread.

To me his post changed the direction of this thread. We've defined the problems, tried to explain them, but, in the end it's the solutions (and if they are implementated) that will make a difference.

ooops -- I did it. I hit the reply button.

hmmm .... I'm not a newbie. I don't know sqat about perl / sql / or really even about my system OS X. I've been around here for ... 2-3 years. I ramble alot. I ask alot of repeat questions. I ask questions that go unanswered. I DO try to say thank you -- well I actually say I appreciate it. I try to behave. I do searches across 4 sites that relate to GT. I can't find threads sometimes, while others find them easily :-( People have been rude to me and I'm sure I was rude to someone somehow too. I'm not perfect and neither is anyone else.

I post here since this is the only real place that can answer my questions about this script. Sure I could send personal emails to Alex or the GT team. But I use the forums instead since that is where I believe I should post my questions. I may be wrong about this since I'm wrong about many things.

I'm really terribly sorry but this thread should NOT stop. This is a real issue and pretending won't make it go away.

There are some very real issues here that need to be addressed by ALL of us including Alex who is in a very difficult position trying to balance his income and support concerns.

some random thoughts:
- Building a FAQ or a Book would be great but still many people only read a manual that contains combinations needed to perform a secret move for the last fad game. haha, I've read the dbman manual about 3-4 times and still I had no clue what's happening.
- people being nice in general would be wonderful, but unlikely sad to say.
- people are scared to post ... boy that's really sad and not good business.
- I burn out after just visiting these forums for a week or 2 -- I don't even post half of the time while I'm lurking AND I still burn out -- why ???
- restructuring of the forums is necessary -- yes, I saw a response above, but I posted something similar at macfixit.com and guess what a few weeks later new categories were built. Why not? My idea is that a resturcture will, of course, create many areas to visit and to maintain and will contain many of the same questions, but what they do provide is a stress sensitive level to deal with. It's a psychological situation in a sense, I'm entering a newbie corner --- errr ---- smile ---- errr --- how can I help you "wink and smile" You've just prepared yourself to deal with the same-o-same-o and guess what the stress is even less.
- search function needs an overhaul -- yep, I found many of the same types of threads, "I need help with XXX." "Well search for XXX" haha ... how frustrating just to dig through these types of threads since they ALL use the same search KEYWORDs, I have to set my search amount up to 250 ever time just to find something.

Economics also play a big part of these boards. GT gets their share, some people who help get their share and people who download the "pay-if-you're-commerical but don't have to if you're not" get their share. But there are others who BUY this script and don't get their share except through their own sites. ha - a lot of this stress comes down to money doesn't it?

What really worries me are the folks who don't know the difference between a GT product and a competitor's product. If I wasn't here from way back -- guess what --- I bet I wouldn't bother. Plain and simple. Sure argue till you're blue in that face that GT is great and all but people do sometimes research there options and if there are forums read the the threads. ooops economics again.

I feel sorry for the guy above who was trying to be honest but got a little roused by all the surrounding posts. Haven't any of you felt similar in one way or another to somebody above who has posted in one direction or the other?

Folks we are all in this together, one big family and every family has it problems. We just need to pull together to fix them, NOT ignore them or hope that Alex can make all well again. The scripts are just the foundation of the GT system but the forums are what brings a site to life and give it a human touch.

So, to close this rantingly long thread -- let's spread the harmony and be nice to each other we're all human and we all have our problems.


peace folks,

a loyal and long time user/member.

sorry, I posted a little late. I didn't realize my connection had dropped.

hey, that's definately a good place to start.

One last question, some folks mention bandwidth bandwidth and saving bandwidth. ummm, doesn't this site make enough income to pay basic business expenditures?

I see it this way, bandwidth at the begining was a simple and easy expenditure to cover while GT scripts were still starting to get around. Now, there has to be a steady base or there wouldn't be any FAQs or Books being written.

Folks, GT is a company and not open source. If GT were open source then I would be all out for saving bandwidth and help with cost cutting. I'm not saying to wasteful and post your whole html.pl or something but talking about semi-related topics shouldn't be shut down with "you're wasting bandwidth" If we are and GT isn't making money I'm really sorry about all that, but let's not forget that this bandwidth does also bring in new customers and users.

I played with scripts for close to 2 years from here and used lot's of bandwidth, but I DID pay for 2 scripts. So was the trade off worth it?

Ooops, ranting again, sorry I'll stop here.

be happy and peace.

Hi,

I just want to thank everyone for all the great feedback in this thread. I've read through it all and it's been very helpful.

We have a lot of things planned for the next two weeks, and a restructuring of the forums is one of them. Expect to see a number of changes coming up, that will hopefully be for the better.

Thanks again, and if you have any questions please don't hesitate to ask.

Cheers,

Alex

--
Gossamer Threads Inc.

So, is anything different?

I found these forums so initimidating that, coupled with the necessity of using them absence adequate documentation, that I decided that I would buy GT software only if I could not find a decent alternative.

In general, I dislike the tendency among software developers to substitute forums for good documentation. Forums are useful for getting answers to very specific questions, but not for trying to figure out, in general, how a product works. It takes hours, days, weeks of searching and reading through forums to try to piece together the overview needed of a product to even begin to use it productively. As others have said, I would happily pay for good manual so as to not impose the costs on others who never RTFM, but I doubt 90 pages would do it.
samantha

Hi,

Well, out of things referenced:

http://gossamer-threads.com/...st_reply&so=DESC

The Links SQL manual is in place, the support tracking system is in place, we have Bruce who is working right now on managing the resource center and moving/categorizing helpful threads, you'll see Adrian (brewt) and Jason (jagerman) in the forums quite often, as well as myself helping people out.

Hopefully the atmosphere has gotten a bit better, and people are more open to posting friendly questions.

I'm curious if you have seen the Links SQL manual? Did it not help? We have had only limited feedback (most of which has been positive), so I'm not quite sure what would help best.

Cheers,

Alex
--
Gossamer Threads Inc.

Hey Alex, just a quick comment after clicking the link above...it seems that the URL is getting chopped after the first ; so the link gives permission denied....this seems to happen with all URL's with ;'s in.