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LinksSQL + Ultra Package VS Customized PHP Links Script

 
LinksSQL + Ultra Package VS Customized PHP Links Script
Hello Everyone!

It's been a long time since I posted but I'm back with a HUGE dilemma.
I have used linksSQL and gForum on one of my major sites and links2 on two other sites. I am revamping the site with linksSQL and decided to move to a PHP solution because thus far, Perl products have seemed esoteric and more difficult to use than the PHP counterparts I have tried. For that reason, I have moved from gForum to vBulletin and to tell the truth, it is like ninght and day. As I have said many times here, I am not a programmer, although I think I have tackled PHP enough to have gleaned a rudimentary knowledge of how it works and when I need help, there is a vast community of PHP enthusiasts to pick from. I have found in the past that knowledgeable members of the GT community are often somewhat elitist - although I must say that Jack Ong has always been incredible and helpful whenever I have contacted him. After speaking with some of these guys I feel like a royal dufus and being a college instructor simply flies out the window! A perfect analogy is when English speakers assume that people who look a certain way need to be gestured at when spoken to and then it turns out that these people speak impeccable English. My point is that I do not like being made to feel like a nincompoop just because I do not know Perl.

I want to create a more professional directory with links from the open directory as well as links from my current directory. I have considered the ultra package from Ultranerds because it appears to have a lot of features.
Then I decided to look at a competing PHP links script. They are willing to set me up with the script, DMOZ dumps, linksSQL database extraction, thumbshots and phpAds integration for what I consider a pretty reasonable cost. Just a little over the cost of the purchasing the ultrapackage and having it installed.

But then.. I start thinking ... GT is so well established, has a bustling community and a core group of developers who live and breath the script. While I find some of these guys to be conceited (IMHO) I want to be sure that this does not deter me from continuing to use the script. My server admin who is a PHP whiz thinks that PHP would be less burdensome on the server. Then, I look at the fact that sites like hotscripts and linkdup (not quite sure about the latter) use linksSQL and my confusion grows even more. One issue that is of concern is that I'd like to create a universal login on the new site and except for the Article Manager (Interactive Tools) all other scripts - gallery, events, vBulletin are coded in PHP. I have been told that creating a universal login would be easier if all scripts were in the same language. I have paid programmers to work on the script, one programmer who is no longer here, even took payment and disappeared without doing the job -- did not even start.

I hope this would not be looked at as criticism of GT but constructive feedback coming from someone who would always wish this company well no matter what she decides. I need to make a decision ASAP and would like some other members of the community to chime in on this. The choice is between staying with LinksSQL with the Ultra Package or moving to a PHP links solution with modifications made by the development company.

Please don't hesitate to move this to a more appropriate category.

Best Regards and Thanks for your time...

Last edited by:

galfriday: Apr 14, 2004, 10:27 AM
 
Re: [galfriday] LinksSQL + Ultra Package VS Customized PHP Links Script In reply to
>> It's been a long time since I posted but I'm back with a HUGE dilemma.

In all honesty, this seems more of a vent, than a question. I don't see the specific question, or problem, here.

You want to use PHP, and in the past few months, GT has explicitly stated they are moving away from PHP. I don't like php for all sorts of reasons I've posted before, and I find it much more difficult to code for, maintain, and develop that a more structured language like Perl (is that an oxymoron??? or a moronic oxy??) (Yes, I've programmed in C, C++, Pascal, Delphi, Basic, and some I can't even remember using any more).

With very little effort, the GT template parser can do most of what PHP can do, within a faster, more stable environment. PHP's roots were for people who could not use PERL, and as such, it has a lot to over come to be like perl, and eventually may be there, so why not just use PERL and the GT parsers from the start? Just read what the parser engines can do, and what perl modules are out there to work with.

Be that as it may, What are you asking??? <G>

You moved away from GForum, to vBulletin, when most people go the other way -- ESPECIALLY when trying to create an integrated environment, or maintain several sites. I find most other Forum software cluttered and messy compared to GForum. I realize some sites want all the cutesy stuff, or it wouldn't exist, but it interferes with the "message" in most cases.

I'm biased, but I spent a lot of time looking at products before chosing GT's. In the past 5 years, I've been though good and bad times, as new products are released, but delays stretch on. Is it worth it? GT does not like to release a product before it's time. Their 0.x release is better than most companies 2.0, and when they get a 1.0, it's a solid 2.0 from anyone else.

I chose Links 2.0 over what ever was out there, and then moved into the early betas of Links SQL, and never looked back, or regretted the choice, even in the face of long delays. I don't have to worry about what is "under the hood" with GT's programs. You have no idea what that means in terms of growth, scalability, and long-term business planning.

I've watched the core/base code develop, and it's a true "engine" block of routines that can be used, reused, and modified to do much more than they are doiing now.

I've looked at some popular scripts out there, and *cringe* at what they are doing, when I see how GT has done it. Is GT right or the best in every situation? No. THey are human. But when you take it all together, they are not ordinary humans -- and their scripts are not either. (Ordinary that is, we know they are not human -- right?? Right?? C'mon, there isn't any AI in them, is there??)

I've looked at trying to make some scripts work with GT's code, in a Links/SQL environment (even existing SQL scripts) and when I see how they have coded routines, and logic (??, well, only in the strict programming definition, in most cases), I give up and add it to the list of things I have to rewrite or write myself. They simply are "hacks". GT's code is a complete, ground up, rewrite, based on existing perl modules, and improved modules. While there are "hacks" within the GT code, they are not the rule, but the exception.

The only question I see is the last part of your post, where you want to know if you should stick with GT and Ultranerds, and the huge base of perl programmers and programs, the CPAN archives, and such, or go with another group and PHP.

Hmmmm...... Stability, reliability, integration, reusability, Perl.... vs Unknown stability or reliability of code, PHP, one developer,....

Filet Mignon .... or Steak Um's.

Lobster ... or Tuna.

>> The choice is between staying with LinksSQL with the Ultra Package or moving to a PHP links solution with modifications made by the development company.

Hmmm..... I wonder which one I'd pick :)

Oh.... I already did..... :)


The bottom line is, from your message, you know what you want, and need to do. For some reason, you have chosen to do something else, perhaps for expediency (PHP), but it's not satisfying you, or you wouldn't be back here.

If you haven't been here in awhile... I don't think any "egos" are still around, and significant upgrades and improvements to 3rd party codes have been made by several developers - some new faces too.

>> there is a vast community of PHP enthusiasts to pick from

As opposed to the super vast community of perl programmers, developers, enthusiasts, and such (like some of the most brilliant minds ever to touch a computer or create a line of code)

Try this: http://forums.devshed.com/t90506/s.html in php <G>,
or more amazingly, this: http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=45213

(And yes, I'm just playing with you in this message. There is no way you'll find a better all around package of solutions or base code than with GT and Ultranerds. We're both in it for the long haul, and we both have personal stakes in it -- we run sites, not just sell software. But you knew that. Or you wouldn't be back after "switching" to vBulletin and PHP...... )


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Re: [pugdog] LinksSQL + Ultra Package VS Customized PHP Links Script In reply to
Well, thanks for the response pugdog, but this post only seems to underscore some of my previous concerns.

I am not venting. I'm simply trying to make a tough choice and your post just makes me feel worse than before. I'm not looking for someone to hold my hand but I also don't want to feel like someone ten feet tall is talking over me. I respect your knowledge and opinions but a little empathy goes a long way.

I have used GForum for over almost two years and played with vBulletin for a couple months. I feel much more comfortable with the latter and just telling me that GT is better is not helpful. I'm more interested in functionality than aesthetics.
Furthermore, having an excellent product is important but knowing how to sell it is even more important.

I will sleep on this and make a decision in 24 hours.

Cheers...
 
Re: [galfriday] LinksSQL + Ultra Package VS Customized PHP Links Script In reply to
I would suggest you contact Jack Ong directly and ask for a quote on what you are trying to do. This would not be the cheapest solution but Jack will tell you if what you are trying to achieve is doable and if you go ahead, GT's work is highly professional and support is impeccable. Only you can determine what end result you are looking for and how to invest your money.

I've used Vbulletin for years and for me it's the best solution out there for one of my sites. I did not know about Gossamer Forum before I bought VBulletin otherwise I might have tried it. For two other websites I use two copies of LinksSQL, one out of the box, and another a highly customised version programed by GT. I am happy with what it is doing for me. The customised version of LinksSQL runs about 20 per cent of my portal site - the balance is developed/updated with Dreamweaver MX - so it's a hybrid but it works for me.
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Re: [mromero] LinksSQL + Ultra Package VS Customized PHP Links Script In reply to
Thanks a bunch mromero. There is no doubt in my mind that linksSQL is an excellent script. I would just like to know that it is excellent for what I need.

Your website is lovely and I can only dream of visiting your beautiful country someday.

Be well...
 
Re: [galfriday] LinksSQL + Ultra Package VS Customized PHP Links Script In reply to
>> I'm simply trying to make a tough choice and your post just makes me feel worse than before.

It wasn't supposed to, and I thought hard about taking this to a PM, but I think the information will help others.

You did not list what your choices were, nor what you would base them on. You came with a lot of generalizations, personal/personality things, and _NOTHING_ specifically related to the attributes of the software.

I think you are coming here with a lot of baggage from something else. Your references to egos, and being talked down to, and such are somewhat surprising here. You also said you have not been around in awhile. In otherwords, you loaded the board before you started to post your questions.

I did a search on your username, and posts, and over half it seems, are in the chit-chat forum, and were directed to Paul. That does not seem to be the way to "learn" about a program. Very few of the posts were in the GFORUM area, which you said you wanted to learn, and the ones you have, were scattered back as far as 2002. Not quite an "effort" in learning anything, I'm afraid.

You may feel that someone 10 feet tall is talking over you, but you are dealing with a very, very complex program and super-powered utilities. It's not that someone is talking over you, it's that you did not invest the same effort into learning GT's GForum, as you did for vBulletin. You obviously decided to learn PHP. You could have chosen to learn PERL instead. While you might not know how to bless references or write complicated regexes, you most certainly would have been able to write your own globals with minimal help. GT's engine code objectifies and encapsulates, as well as modularizes and wraps lower level routines into very, very simple function calls. You get a lot of power with 2-3 lines of code.

First off, it seems you posted and asked a lot of questions in a PHP forum, or a vBulletin forum. Had you done the same here, you'd have gotten a lot of good responses and help. If you go in with a bad, it's not going to work attitude, that is what you are goiong to get.

The _difference_ is that PHP is *not* perl. Despite it's development, it started out as a "personal home page processer" and not a "practical extraction and reporting language." Perl's strength for the web is that it's a scripting language heavily string-processing based, and perfect for web applications.

The problem here is one of mind set. You already have decided you don't like us, yet you like our sand box and toys very much. Can't help you there. Your messages are very different from messages posted by other people who are trying to, or have tried to, make the same or similar decisions. You have made up your mind, and want us to change it, but you haven't told us how.

>> I respect your knowledge and opinions but a little empathy goes a long way.

What empathy? This is where the problem is.

>> I have used GForum for over almost two years and played with vBulletin for a couple months. I feel much more comfortable with the latter

This is what I mean, you've made up your mind, now, in two messages. What do you want??

>> and just telling me that GT is better is not helpful.

I didn't "just" tell you the GT programs are better. I _EXPLAINED_ in DETAIL why.

>> I'm more interested in functionality than aesthetics.

What functionality? You listed no needs, other than which program, which company and which language is better.

>> Furthermore, having an excellent product is important but knowing how to sell it is even more important.

Hmmm..... GT seems to sell it quite well. the products speak for themselves, and they don't need to have a sales pitch to make you believe the program works, or does, what you want.

If you have a _SPECIFIC_ requirement, there are many here who can let you know how to handle it.

I'm not trying to start a war here, or to reply negatively, and I think I posted very informative messages based on your initial post, but this message seemed like a troll to me, and after looking up your past messages here, I'm half-convinced that it was.

Please ask SPECIFIC questions about what you need, or what you are looking for, and why you like something elses features, and if GT has it built in, or a plugin exists to do it.

In short: Telling you GT's software is the best, and why it's the best, and why I/we have chosen to develop for it, is the answer to the question you posted. For a full feature set, look up the product page off the top menu. If you have specific questions on specific features, we'll offer a comparason. But no program out there -- links based, forum based, or mail based, has as robust a feature set, as well devleoped set of core libraries, the depth of ability to maintain the programs by 3rd parties not one developer or company and as loyal a developer base. Most developers here run their own sites, and the programs/plugins they develop are for those sites, based in real need, and real experience.

That is the answer to the question you posted, without any personal attacks -- head on, or side ways.


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Please leave a PM here.
 
Re: [pugdog] LinksSQL + Ultra Package VS Customized PHP Links Script In reply to
In Reply To:
It wasn't supposed to, and I thought hard about taking this to a PM, but I think the information will help others. ---->I think you did not take this to a PM because it's yet another opportunity for you to show the world how wrong I am and how right you are.<---
You did not list what your choices were, nor what you would base them on. You came with a lot of generalizations, personal/personality things, and _NOTHING_ specifically related to the attributes of the software.
----> If you went to consult with a Urologist you'd use generalizations as well, because you do not have a Urologist's training so asking me to list specifics beyond those previously listed -- choosing between A or B is asking me to open a Perl manual and pretend to know what I'm talking about.<---

I think you are coming here with a lot of baggage from something else. Your references to egos, and being talked down to, and such are somewhat surprising here. You also said you have not been around in awhile. In otherwords, you loaded the board before you started to post your questions.
----> I have been a GT product user for about three years. In that time, I have changed my username because I could not remember it so my previous posts are floating around somewhere. If you consider my post to be loading the board, it's your perogative as a moderator to delete it.<---


I did a search on your username, and posts, and over half it seems, are in the chit-chat forum, and were directed to Paul. That does not seem to be the way to "learn" about a program. Very few of the posts were in the GFORUM area, which you said you wanted to learn, and the ones you have, were scattered back as far as 2002. Not quite an "effort" in learning anything, I'm afraid.
----> My reason for posting in the chit chat forum in the past was simply to break the ice. I have pored over this forum more than any other forum on the web. Remember, you have not been privy to PMs or emails I might have received from other users.<---
You may feel that someone 10 feet tall is talking over you, but you are dealing with a very, very complex program and super-powered utilities. It's not that someone is talking over you, it's that you did not invest the same effort into learning GT's GForum, as you did for vBulletin. You obviously decided to learn PHP. You could have chosen to learn PERL instead. While you might not know how to bless references or write complicated regexes, you most certainly would have been able to write your own globals with minimal help. GT's engine code objectifies and encapsulates, as well as modularizes and wraps lower level routines into very, very simple function calls. You get a lot of power with 2-3 lines of code.
----> I did not decide to learn PHP. My knowledge of PHP came simply from being able to figure out it's logic while customizing scripts for my site. You are still missing my point, obviously.<---

First off, it seems you posted and asked a lot of questions in a PHP forum, or a vBulletin forum. Had you done the same here, you'd have gotten a lot of good responses and help. If you go in with a bad, it's not going to work attitude, that is what you are goiong to get.
---->I have never posted in a PHP forum or vBulletin forum that I know of. Those are your assumptions. Like I said, there is no other forum on the web that I've spent time on as much as I have on GT. I have watched many a thread on this forum over the years. Interestingly enough, I have watched your websites over the years, postcards, girlfriends, beads etal. I think I have visited every site in the directory of GT users and every installer with a listed website for that matter. I have always felt such research to be helpful. <---

The _difference_ is that PHP is *not* perl. Despite it's development, it started out as a "personal home page processer" and not a "practical extraction and reporting language." Perl's strength for the web is that it's a scripting language heavily string-processing based, and perfect for web applications.
----> Again, I respect your opinion. Like you said, it's the difference between lobster and tuna. I like lobster but it so happens that I like tuna much better. Taste is always subjective.<---

The problem here is one of mind set. You already have decided you don't like us, yet you like our sand box and toys very much. Can't help you there. Your messages are very different from messages posted by other people who are trying to, or have tried to, make the same or similar decisions. You have made up your mind, and want us to change it, but you haven't told us how.
----> "You already have decided you don't like us." That's your opinion. If that were the case, I would not waste my time posting here and trying to figure out what has been a big dilemma for me in the past couple weeks. I have spent days looking at your ultra package and was very close to purchasing it until my server admin asked me a few key questions. I have always found Alex and Jack to be helpful and not condescending in their posts. They work extremely hard and will always have my best wishes for GT's success. I never decide to not like anyone. Again your comments only serve to belittle my concerns. <---

>> I respect your knowledge and opinions but a little empathy goes a long way.

What empathy? This is where the problem is.
----> Isn't it always? <---

---> I have used GForum for over almost two years and played with vBulletin for a couple months. I feel much more comfortable with the latter <---

This is what I mean, you've made up your mind, now, in two messages. What do you want??
---> That was about forum software not links software. Two distinctly different solutions last time I checked. <---

>> and just telling me that GT is better is not helpful.

I didn't "just" tell you the GT programs are better. I _EXPLAINED_ in DETAIL why.
--->Yes Sir! <---

>> I'm more interested in functionality than aesthetics.

What functionality? You listed no needs, other than which program, which company and which language is better.
--->Not sure what point you are missing.<---

>> Furthermore, having an excellent product is important but knowing how to sell it is even more important.

Hmmm..... GT seems to sell it quite well. the products speak for themselves, and they don't need to have a sales pitch to make you believe the program works, or does, what you want.
--->You know, you can never sell too much of a product. The prospect of losing one customer, even one as lowly as I should always be of concern to any business that wants to succeed for the long haul.) <---

If you have a _SPECIFIC_ requirement, there are many here who can let you know how to handle it.
--->I'm not looking for people to "let me know..." I'm looking for people to help me with a tough choice and that's the difference <---

I'm not trying to start a war here, or to reply negatively, and I think I posted very informative messages based on your initial post, but this message seemed like a troll to me, and after looking up your past messages here, I'm half-convinced that it was.
--->Whatever a troll may be to you, I've got way more important things to do than to spend time trying to prove my concerns are genuine. It's a troll to you but it's helped me make up my mind. <---

Please ask SPECIFIC questions about what you need, or what you are looking for, and why you like something elses features, and if GT has it built in, or a plugin exists to do it.

In short: Telling you GT's software is the best, and why it's the best, and why I/we have chosen to develop for it, is the answer to the question you posted. For a full feature set, look up the product page off the top menu. If you have specific questions on specific features, we'll offer a comparason. But no program out there -- links based, forum based, or mail based, has as robust a feature set, as well devleoped set of core libraries, the depth of ability to maintain the programs by 3rd parties not one developer or company and as loyal a developer base. Most developers here run their own sites, and the programs/plugins they develop are for those sites, based in real need, and real experience.
--->No surprise there. I'd be shocked if most people did not feel such fervor for their own products. <---

That is the answer to the question you posted, without any personal attacks -- head on, or side ways. --->Wow, if those were not personal attacks, I'd sure hate to experience what the real ones are like."<---

--->Anyhow, have a good one. I bet you are a really nice guy but it comes across the wrong way. I thank you for taking the time to play ping pong. I think your GT plugins look great but I guess I'll never have the privilege to know, would I.<---

||| A thing is not necessarily true because a man dies for it. - Oscar Wilde |||

Last edited by:

galfriday: Apr 14, 2004, 11:17 PM
 
Re: [galfriday] LinksSQL + Ultra Package VS Customized PHP Links Script In reply to
Hi,

I seem to have joined the party a little late on this one, my apologies on the delay.

Should you have a "vision" of what you'd like to put together, I'd be more than happy to chat either on the phone or via email about how best to attain your goals. There is no doubt that there are more ways than one to reach the final destination, which path you choose all depends on the team of people you work with and how well you can communicate with them.

We've come across some good PHP programmers in our time, and of course we have some pretty competent Perl guys in our own camp. We like to think that we can build a pretty good Community website with all the code that we've amassed over the years, not the mention the experience that we've accumulated as well along the way. If you get in touch with me personally, I can show you a pretty slick site we're about to release that aims to be a top-notch Community experience.

Please feel free to drop me a line at any time, I'd be honoured to speak with you further about any development ideas you might have.

Jack.
 
Re: [galfriday] LinksSQL + Ultra Package VS Customized PHP Links Script In reply to
>> I have spent days looking at your ultra package and was very close to purchasing it until my server
>> admin asked me a few key questions.

And you passed *none* of them on, nor asked them here. *THAT* is what I have been saying. You appear suddenly, demand answers to questions you refuse to ask, then get upset, when people can't/don't answer them. On top of that, you opened your message with how much you DID NOT LIKE the forum/people here, and how your experiences here were so unpleasant.

Had you simply asked "I was planning on purchasing the program(s) but my server admin asked me these questions..."

You'd have gone much, much further to getting the answers -- and help -- you claim you need. That is what 99.99% of people who ask for help do. Just look at all the other messages in this topic that ask for help deciding on whether or not to purchase a GT program. This message stands alone.

You wrote a long response, that did nothing more than vent your spleen again, WITHOUT ASKING FOR ANSWERS TO SPECIFIC QUESTIONS.

This is why I find this thread, and messages, suspicious -- especially in the context of what has gone on in the past.


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Re: [galfriday] LinksSQL + Ultra Package VS Customized PHP Links Script In reply to
I've just noticed that the Pugdog is the official Moderator of this forum. Based on the contemptous tone towards potential GT customers, I believe GT management should severely crack him on the knuckles for conduct unbecoming a moderator. I've had contact with several GT staff and NONE has the attitude displayed here by our Moderator. I'm sure Pun Dog is an excellent programmer and has great plug-ins - but he needs remedial P.R. training. I am glad I do not need his products as I would prefer to change my software platform rather than buy from him.
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Re: [mromero] LinksSQL + Ultra Package VS Customized PHP Links Script In reply to
That's certainly your choice, but as a _moderator_ the purpose is to moderate, which means good or bad. Not just "good."

The goal is to point out to OTHERS when a thread, or individual might be a troll, as well as to bring it to GT's attention.

I have real problems with the post, and the thread.

I have pointed them out.

Seems you and I had a run in previously, about the "quality" and "value" of a post, and I belive I pointed out that here, in the forums, we believe in QUALITY, not misleading people. See the following post to you:

http://www.gossamer-threads.com/...orum.cgi?post=262796

Funny how this thread has brought you out again.

I stand by my posts, and my misgivings about galfriday, and you -- or actually the value of your posts, in light of the above referenced thread.

This thread has deteriorated beyond usefulness. It no longer serves any purpose in this forum, or more broadly, on this forum.


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