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SHwing.com
Hello everyone!
I've been looking at Links SQL and Hyperseek as possible solutions for building shwing.com which would be a fun outpost/online entertainment magazine for the technocult.

At the moment, we are working as a virtual team of three brainstorming ways to make the idea a reality - one person works full time at a regular job and two of us are laid off dot commers :( :) [blessing in disguise]

We have what we call a hybrid business model and part of that model is that we don't want to sell our souls to venture capitalists so we're all basically pooling our meagre resources to make this work.

We are not hardcore programmers but we know we'd like to build the site with PHP. If we go with links SQL, we would need someone on our team or readily available, who would be able to do the programming and modifications involved. Down the line, we most definitely want a GoTo like mod.

Besides monetary savings, why should we pick Links SQL over Hyperseek? If we do go with Links, are there programmers available to help with its modification?

I look forward to your responses.


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Re: SHwing.com In reply to
Hi -

There is a large group of programs hacking away at Links SQL, with many mods available, and more each day.

Here is a link to a (long) thread on the Goto mod you wanted to know more about:
http://gossamer-threads.com/...w=collapsed&sb=5.

As far as Php - neither of the two programs you are considering are written in php, they are in Perl. Php seems to be a rage lately, but I'm not so sure if its for the correct reasons. Apparently it's easier to code with HTML and code mixed in the programs. The long term goodness of this is left to be questioned - especially when it comes to security. For example Phpnuke sites are always getting hacked. And I mean totally hacked.

In any case, there is a huge loyal user base here using LinksSQL, and I would definately give it my vote...

AlexJ
The Netmall Group

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Re: SHwing.com In reply to
HI,

I'm working on my on site too. NON-programmer.

I use php for layout and design of most of the site but decided to stay with LinksSQL eventhough I had found other php alternatives. 1 php script was almost tempting enough and could be considered in a simple sense a replacement for Links (flat-file).

I even went as far as installing the demo version of inLinks and several other php scripts.

But consdering the "buy me" scripts and an almost $300 US difference in price for LinksSQL was alot for me, I figured that $300 would be a justifiable and smart investment for me.

In the script world I rank LinksSQL along the lines of Photoshop or even better yet Illustrator. I spent quite awhile working on Links (flat-file) but when I installed LinkSQL I keep saying "Dammmm" for the about the first hour of playing with the script.

1 major drawback might be that an all-site login might be a pain to incorporate. This is one thing that PhpNuke has going for it.

If you can afford the price of LinksSQL, I think it would be foolish NOT buying LinksSQL. This script is just so much more advanced, stable, great forums, and the internal functionality is just amazing.

A minus point of LinksSQL is in the module area. PHP has a lot of ethusiastic programmers out their who amazing come up with something new every day it seems and alot of what is being done is open source. While some of the modules for LinkSQL are "buy me". But even in PHP land a current battle is between the PhpNUke mentality of "I want EVERY single option" versus PhpWebSite "I want solid code and pratical and useful options". I guess the ultimate decision should be what your viewers/guests want.

Other minus points: NONE. oops, sorry. A really busy site should have it's own server just for LinksSQL -- hehe but if you were that busy this won't be a problem. Also, if you're still being hosted like I am, then you might have trouble with the necessary perl modules like DBI and DBD. Mod_perl isn't necessary but is nice to have.

Gee, script wise I can't even think of one complaint. The base install version has enough goodies to keep my guest/vistitors happy and me too! And the few modules I really want are available at not extra cost. and the all-site login I'm sure my guest/visitiors can live without.

Wow, this is getting longer than I had expected.

Anyway, these are my opinions from a person who scimped and saved for almost a year to buy the script. If I offended anyone, I'm sorry but this is still how I feel.

My recommendation: BUY LinksSQL

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Re: SHwing.com In reply to
I'm open to suggestions and will take your comments into consideration.

Thank you so much for the speedy feedback.

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Re: SHwing.com In reply to
Alex,

Just because PHPNuke is getting hacked, doesn't mean PHP is not a good language to program with. Good PHP code is just as good as good Perl code. PHP is easier to learn, therefore newbies program with it, and write scripts that are easy to hack.

I could write a Perl script that is easy to hack, but that doesn't mean that Perl wouldn't be the correct choice for a project.

Discuss webhosting at
The Webhost Area Forums!
http://www.webhostarea.com/forums/
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Re: SHwing.com In reply to
Wow, I love these forums already! I'm a chick excuse my enthusiasm and the obvious stereotype :)

This is so helpful. I totally understand about scimping and saving to get things done jdunes.

I use the regular links2.0 for my resource site idEa247.com and I like it very much so far.

We are looking at the following hosting services:
http://www.hostpro.com/hosting/shared/unix_freedom400x.html
http://www.hostway.com/webhosting/platinumplus.htm
http://www.dreamhost.com/strictlybusiness.html

Although we anticipate a lot of traffic, we want to be conservative and scale as we grow.

I'd love feedback on which plan everyone thinks would work with linksSQL. (the least expensive would be awesome)



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Re: SHwing.com In reply to
Michael,

This is a re-occurring argument...depending on the needs and usage of web sites, yes, PHP can be a powerful language, however, Perl is just as a powerful.

If you are attempting to persuade GT to switch to PHP or develop alternative PHP scripts, I feel that your attempts are futile...GT is comitted to Perl and for good reasons...

So, why resurrecte old arguments???

Regards,

Eliot Lee
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Re: SHwing.com In reply to
shwing,

??? -- Wayne's world ???

just did a quick check on your links. You going for virtual hosting or a full co-location serving -- as in having your own box hosted?

30 gigs a month ??? wow, if all the users used 30 gigs a month how many can fit in a what ... T3 line let alone a T1 line? I wonder how many people get ripped off buy a line like that ??? haha looks like unlimited usage but in reality could mean slow speeds and lots of problems.

I pay something like $35.00 a month for less bandwidth and less storage 2.5 gigs / 300 megs. I would love to use all 300 megs (I barely use 60 megs - with mulitple test folders) and come no where near my bandwidth alotage :-( bummer

One thing for sure, I will never host on an NT server -- period. I was at interland.com and there servers after they got bigger would be done most of the time and I lost lots of hits. errrr.....

I'm at a place called intrahost.com -- they're small and probably leech off a bigger company. Jeff, the owner, responds quickly and has a great sense of humor. Tell him that a guy from Sapporo recommeded him and I'll get a email and "haha" out of him. I don't get commisions. I just like passing along information. Also, he installed DBI, DBD and mod_perl for me without complaining too much ;-)

Have you thought of using GT servers? I didn't know until I had already payed my money.




My question with intrahost.com is if they'll be able to handle LinksSQL. I'm still developing my updated site to include LinksSQL finally :-) If I do out grow him, I'll either co-host off his lines or try out something along a home brew situation. I do have dreams :-)

Oh well, sorry for the blubbering. I do think checking out sites and getting people's opinions is a good thing.

good luck


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Re: SHwing.com In reply to
At this point, we are just looking for inexpensive, reliable, stable servers. We do not intend to have our own box hosted for scalability/upkeep reasons.

I'll check out intrahost. Out of curiosity, what's your website?
Sapporo? Decent beer :) Does that mean you're in japan?

blubbering can be a good thing, jdunes...





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Re: SHwing.com In reply to
The site is at:

www.9balljp.com

It has dbMan running a database of cues connected to a shopping cart. My partner bought the cart thinking it was a good choice -- ummm, it's ok. This domain points to our ALL Japanese version. A newer English site is on my home box will be up some time this week. Just set your browser to view Japanese auto-detect and you should be able to see the Japanese Characters. If you're familiar with dbman you'll see the search box on the top right corner.

Yeah Sapporo Beer is good but I'm a Asahi Super Dry guy myself. We don't have Michelobe Dry over here :-( well, you can find Corona and bud ever once in awhile.

Yeah, I live in Sapporo. 8 years now. Speak the language pretty well and read/write enough to get by.

Also, check out this link:

http://phpbb.sourceforge.net/phpbb/viewtopic.php?topic=5669&forum=1

This is a BBS that I use and they have lots of questions about where to host, who to host with, complaints, praises, and all kinds of goodies that relate to forum software and other popular site software. They are a php group but are just as serious about things as the group here at GT.

Also in that thread is a link to www.webhostingtalk.com which seems to be forum for webhosting.

Good luck



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Re: SHwing.com In reply to
In Reply To:
Michael,

This is a re-occurring argument...depending on the needs and usage of web sites, yes, PHP can be a powerful language, however, Perl is just as a powerful.

If you are attempting to persuade GT to switch to PHP or develop alternative PHP scripts, I feel that your attempts are futile...GT is comitted to Perl and for good reasons...

So, why resurrecte old arguments???

Regards,

Eliot Lee
Eliot, I really couldn't care less if GT use PHP or Perl. Yes, I like PHP and you guys like Perl - but that was not the point of my post. I was just saying the post by AlexJ is not a valid argument against PHP.

In Reply To:
As far as Php - neither of the two programs you are considering are written in php, they are in Perl. Php seems to be a rage lately, but I'm not so sure if its for the correct reasons. Apparently it's easier to code with HTML and code mixed in the programs. The long term goodness of this is left to be questioned - especially when it comes to security. For example Phpnuke sites are always getting hacked. And I mean totally hacked.
You seem like a pretty intelligent person, so you should understand what I am saying here. Simply because Phpnuke websites can be hacked does not mean that PHP is not a good/secure language to program with. There is no security issues with PHP if something is coded properly.

Just wanted to clear that up.

Michael Bray
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Re: SHwing.com In reply to
Shwing:

I host at HostPro on a VServer Pro account because this account was originally created when the company was known as VServers only, then bought my Micron PC, then bought by HostPro. The only reason I'm still on the VServer Pro is because of the outstanding VAdmin control panel. I have run into problems in this shared environment but all have been resolved by GT without incident. HostPro tech support is excellent.

I too considered moving everything to a HostPro Freedom 400x but for me that was to small an increment to justify the headaches that I know awaited me in transition.

I am gearing up to move to a fully dedicated UNIX server from C I Host, concurring with someone else's comment here about NT and staying as far away from Microsoft solutions as possible. The only thing C I Host lacks is accurate documentation which I have been working with them to correct and server admin tools as highly refined as HostPro's. But, I am definitely looking forward to the breathing room and unlimited flexibility afforded me by a dedicated server.

Wishing you much success,

Mark Brasche
http://SurfSafely.com/
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Re: SHwing.com In reply to
Arigato! (correct spelling?)
your site seems to have alot of info - interesting. It's definitely the kind of site we'll be adding to the SHwing directory.

I couldn't find the PHP link but I'll be poring over the webhostingtalk web site.

I'm not a big beer drinker myself but do prefer the taste of Asahi to Sapporo and Corona or Heineken over all others...

Anyway, enough beer talk (Shwing will also have a beer subcategory for afficionados :)

BTW is there a list of LinksSQL installers like the one for links2.0?

Sayonara.

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Re: SHwing.com In reply to
thanks...
Is surf safely powered by linksSQL? How do you like it?

Why would you encounter headaches transfering to Hostpro and not to CI host?

Despite many horror stories I had heard about CIhost, I attempted to sign up with them last week. It was a bad experience.
They had not indicated on the sign up page, that a credit card verification needed to be signed, then faxed or posted before the account setup could be completed. I found out only after submitting my credit card info.

I needed the account setup immediately and did not have immediate access to a fax machine. I called customer service and after being put on hold for 20 minutes, decided that it was an augury of things to come.
I cancelled the account that same day and was assured that my card wouldn't be charged if the confirmation was not sent.

Imagine my amazement when I checked my account yesterday and it had been charged by CIHost - I never sent the confirmation. I now have to go through the arduous proccess of getting my account credited.

*sigh*



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Re: SHwing.com In reply to
SurfSafely.com is powered by Links SQL 2.0.4. It is very good as far as it goes but there are many things I would like to do with it that I'm glad I have waited for because there are still a great many wrinkles they need to iron out, not the least of which is documentation which we are promised is due out very soon with version 2.1. I'm also not satisfied that their Spider and Adcycle plugins have all the bugs worked out. Based on some of the posts I've been reading, I'm glad I waited.

What I meant about headaches is that I'm sure to encounter them no matter which one I move to. I'd rather go through the headaches for a large change than a small one, only to have to do it again when I outgrew the 400x.

Sorry to hear about your bad experience with CI Host. Your's is not the first that I've heard but I can't complain. As CTO for, and strategic partner with the UFCWS to whom a fully dedicated server has been donated by CI Host, I have free access. So, it's worth it for me to overlook the shortcomings, and hopefully help them work through it.


Mark Brasche
http://SurfSafely.com/
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Re: SHwing.com In reply to
Thanks again!

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Re: SHwing.com In reply to
Ok,

Everyone makes some valid, and less valid, points, depending on their use of the system, and what their server resources are.

In the PHP vs PERL debates, you first need to compare mod_php to mod_perl, _NOT_ mod_php to regular perl. Second, you need to understand the popularity of PHP is the ease at which an ISP can offer it, compared to mod_perl, on shared servers. This, more than anything else, is the major part of it's popularity. But, if you have a dedicated server, as _MOST_ links SQL sites really should have, mod_ perl is not a big issue. And it's faster. Without getting into the hows and whys of all this, suffice to say, dedicated servers are getting cheaper, and the resources rquired for a program like Links SQL and SQL in general, lend themselves better to a dedicated server -- especially if you are trying to plan out a business, and allocate your own resources. You don't share them, they are yours. Also, on shared servers, both CGI and PHP are often hosted in the "document" space of the servers. On a dedicated server, CGI is usually served from a non-document root, that is scriptaliased, and protected from the server spitting out as raw code. but, enough on this.

Many, many perl modules are open source, and free, like perl itself. Just check out CPAN. You can add any of those modules to your server, and use them, very, very simply. php is still catching up.

As for free vs paid hacks and modules, free has a place, but it also means that it's usually a part time, or short term effort the programmer. In order to support a program, you need to be able to justify it. That means getting paid, or compensated in some way.

More features will be built into links, but in the mean time, paid mods will fill the gaps, and fill niche areas. Look at the prices of larger programs, and Links, with all the mods available and planned, is still cheaper than most programs, offering less -- and having less of a future.

If you really want to judge your program, look at the base code. I realize with Links you can't do that for now, unless you buy a copy. But, I promise you won't be disappointed. It's built in the same way perl itself is built, and each release is more and more OOP oritented, and compliant.

I don't see PHP ever replacing the GT code in PERL, but I do see some competition in 5 or 10 years from "java-based-programming-environments", although, there is a potential for perl/java/apache to all merge into something that is "next generation" truly. So, don't look too far ahead, concentrate more on what you can do now, and in the short term, and how good your database is.

I think Links has a great database structure as well. It's also getting better. That means, your "database" will be portable/importable into any other system that comes along, and that, more than anything, is a the most valuable resource.

Additionally, data, delivery, and display have all be separated, and are becoming more separated with each release. That means, that the database can change (look at you can use MySQL or Oracle now), delivery (perl, java, php, etc Links 1.x, 2.x, or whatever) can change, or display (template parsers) can change, all separate from each other. Investments in database and display will not be lost if you need to change how the data is delivered. If you need to change your display -- logo, information, look/feel, everything -- you can do it without having to change your database or delivery system. This is the most important part of the whole process.

Anyway, the choice is up to you, and what you are looking for. I don't think I would (or could) make another choice. I still look around every month or so, just to see what is out there, and what I see is programs trying to be Links SQL, and not coming close.


PUGDOGŪ Enterprises, Inc.
FAQ:http://LinkSQL.com/FAQ
Forum:http://LinkSQL.com/forum
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Re: SHwing.com In reply to
I agree with you pugdog about with the majority of what you said. I love the way Gossamer-Threads has designed Links SQL, and I realise that it would be stupid for GT to switch to PHP right now. They learnt from Links, Links 2.0, Links SQL and now Links SQL and probably have the most experience you can get at making this type of program with Perl. The database structure and base code is great (yes, I have a license and I know enough of Perl to read the code.)

The purpose of my post really wasn't to stir up a PHP v Perl arguement. I was just clearing up a point made above indicating that PHP is not a secure language to use.

I agree with you with the Java as well, I feel that in about 2 years time, Perl and PHP will begin to get phased out, and Java introduced. Personally I wanted to make things using C - and compiling them as apache modules. This isn't a profitable thing to do when you find out how much time it takes to do a simple thing however :)

Discuss webhosting at
The Webhost Area Forums!
http://www.webhostarea.com/forums/
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Re: SHwing.com In reply to
OK Guys, PHP rules and PERL rules!

I'm leaning VERY strongly towards LinksSQL. Is there a list of installers anywhere?

Hmmm, way past my bed time. See you tomorrow :)

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Re: SHwing.com In reply to
Would someone be so kind as to tell me if this hosting plan would work with LinksSQL?

http://www.dreamhost.com/strictlybusiness.html

Thanks...

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Re: SHwing.com In reply to
Michael (and everyone else),

Please understand, I was not saying that because Phpnuke has been hacked, PHP is not secure. I was just using that as an example of a PHP program that has a large install base, yet is extremely (on their OWN accord) buggy. I am actually waiting for the 5.0 final release to deploy Phpnuke as a family portal...

In PHP docs, PHP code is mixed with HTML; making it extremely easy to program. Which is great. Rapid development time for apps; super fast learning for new programmers....etc...

On the other hand, PHP remains an immature language, without the architectural elegance or extensibility of a language like Perl. Some developers find embedded scripting empowering, and program code is often mixed together with HTML structure; other developers find this approach disorganized and bug-prone, preferring separate development environments for each Web component.

I'm not trying to stir anything up - just clarify, since I'm being quoted now...

AlexJ

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Re: SHwing.com In reply to
jumping in here, not so sure if i should :)

I think everyone agrees that you should pick the product for the product and not for the language it is written in. Thus, whether gossamer should write scripts in php/perl is really whatever they find easiest. You can pretty much achieve whatever you want in both and there certainly seems to be no conclusion to which is the most efficient (99% of the time it is the programming that needs to be optimized not the language it is written in).

IMHO the reason php is growing so fast is because it is so amazingly easy to link it with a database, newbie guides to php don't even mention flat files normally. As databases are so useful i think php has grown round that ease. Personally, the html code in the php thing is hardly an advantage and most of the best scripts do their best to template out the html if at all possible (vbulletin par example, probably the most widley used commerical php script).

I expect we will see more php as it is a lot easier to write for most people and capable of 98% of what perl can do. It clearly dosen't scale as well as some alternatives (jsp?) but for medium sites works well.

For me links SQL is great, my problem is that i find it incredbily hard to modify because i can't really read perl but find php quite easy. I wonder whether the rather limited lack of plugins and mods being created (less than 10 people really releasing anything) is based around this?

ASciFi.com http://www.ASciFi.com/
Help Desk http://www.Techuk.com/HelpDesk/
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Re: SHwing.com In reply to
This brings me to another question...
What does LinksSQL do that Links2.0 can't do?
Is it about capacity or are there other major differences?

Why should I use LinksSQL instead of Links2.0? Seems like Links2 has more mods and more people who know how to work with it.

Thanks...

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Re: SHwing.com In reply to
In Reply To:
What does LinksSQL do that Links2.0 can't do?
Is it about capacity or are there other major differences?
More than just capacity....

1) Links SQL uses less CPU and Memory, than flat file systems, which are server resource hogs.

2) Concurrent connections (which you can't get with flat file systems, since users are qued one-by-one)...this has been addressed before...basically flat file systems are like shopping at the local mom and pop grocery store with only one cashier machine versus using SQL-based system, it is like shopping at a large mega store with basically unlimited cashier machines).

3) Less overhead in terms of codes...applications like GT SQL products and others, you have centralized MODULE files that handle most if not all the data processing. With flat files, yes, you can have common library files, HOWEVER, it takes about ten to twenty times more lines of codes to parse flat files than parsing data in a relational system, like SQL.

4) Links SQL is a LOT easier to mod, especially with its plugin system that allows you to INSTALL mods and UNINSTALL mods without touching the nuts/bolts of the script, meaning virtually limited coding is necessary, versus standard Perl scripts using flat files, like Links 2.0, you will have to constantly hack codes without easy methods of uninstalling modifications.

In Reply To:
Why should I use LinksSQL instead of Links2.0? Seems like Links2 has more mods and more people who know how to work with it.
Why? I think I have already provided a lot of reasons WHY. The main reason that there are more Mods for Links 2.0 is that it is a cheaper application and more users use it because of that...in addition, the plugin system for LINKS SQL is relatively in its infancy with only being stable for a couple months.

AS more Links SQL users become acquinted with the plugin system, you WILL see a lot more modifications.

Also, LINKS SQL provides a lot more out-of-box features than LINKS 2.0, meaning that you need less formal modifications and code hacks to get it to do what you want.

I could go on and on...this has been discussed quite a few times in the Pre Sales Forum and other support forums in terms of product comparisons and specifically, there have been quite a few discussions related to LINKS SQL versus LINKS 2.0.

Regards,

Eliot Lee
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Re: SHwing.com In reply to
Thank you much. That was a very helpful, educated answer. Makes sense to a neophyte like myself.

So linksSQL it is then....



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