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a sense of community
I have had numerous people email and PM me telling me that they are intimidated by these forums as a form of support for LinksSQL in particular.

I have experienced this as well. Folks have mentioned reading many of my posts and feeling in a similar situation as I am in.

I am a part of many other tech related forums where the support for a product or service is mainly on bulletin boards. I am usually able to learn the things I need to learn from those communities plus a little investigation.

Unfortunately, this community seems very different. If a question has been asked once...ever... it seems that the status quo is that it is encouraged to scold the person publicly for ever asking it again. It is also assumed that they haven't done a search on the subject (when in my case, I certainly always search...)

I wish there were room on the boards to ask the same question in different ways until you understand it. I wish that folks had a sense of encouragement in their posts.... ahhhhhhhhh.

I have been to Vancouver and found it to be a very friendly, mellow, and welcoming place. I wish the forums felt like that. :)

Just esspressin' my opinion...... :) And truthfully...hoping for change. I know, on the boards that I manage...keeping the "tone" positive and welcoming takes a lot of work.

Anyone else feel similarly?
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Re: a sense of community In reply to
Hi Evoir,

I have to agree with you on this. I tend to not ask or answer questions myself for that very reason. I try to go elsewhere if I have any questions. I have helped a couple of people via PM because they didn't want to post in the forum. I assumed it was for this reason. That said, this is a public forum and everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. If they wish to belittle or scold others, that is their prerogative. I myself would rather not see a reply or maybe politely direct them to the search link. I guess after a while it might get a little old though. I think Alex said something about redoing the FAQ/Resource area. Maybe that will help. Who knows? That's my opinion :)

Regards,
Charlie


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Re: a sense of community In reply to
Evoir,

Thanks for having the courage to post what you did. Although I haven't posted before, I have spent hours reading these forums and have come to the same conclusion as you. I am impressed by the products this company has produced, LinksSQL in particular, and the responsiveness of the management. But I am disturbed at times by the tone of the forums.

My perception is that the forums are dominated by experienced users, and this intimidates the novices like me. I think the heart of the problem is the lack of solid documentation for LinksSQL. For the price I paid, I would expect a very thick and detailed manual to accompany it.

Using forums for support is wonderful once you have attained a basic understanding of the software and how all the parts fit together. But until that happens, a detailed user manual is a necessity. I have received a partially completed manual from GT for which I am grateful. Unfortunately, it is not very detailed, and I still find that I'm pretty much stumbling around in the dark.

Maybe what we need is a discussion area just for beginners with stupid questions It would have to be frequented by very patient types.

Cheers to all.

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Re: a sense of community In reply to
Hey, now that's not a bad idea. A newbies area for each product. :) Like a "Welcome Wagon" of sorts.

I like that.

Curious what other's think of this. And Alex, does this kind of idea work for you?

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Re: a sense of community In reply to
I think there are two sides to everything.

Some questions are asked so often, or people show up for their first post, asking a question that has been asked/answered a dozen times in the past month.

This is the reason for all the newsgroups with their FAQ's ... and the mindset took off for most things.

I've tried to maintain an FAQ that was somewhat better indexed than the forum, using the keywords people are looking for. But, with the release of 2.0x and it's multiple versions and changes, I haven't been able to keep up with it.

For most of the basic Links SQL questions, though, the FAQ area does answer, or point to, answers.

For Links SQL 2.x, most questions are still relatively new, although certain questions like category templates, where do change the category display, and others have been asked to death, and s really _simple_ search of the forum would yeild several different answers to each of those questions.

Links 2.1 will have documentation, and potentially the new "filetype" field. At that time, the stability of the project will be pretty well set, and people can add-to and modify the documentation.

It would also be nice to see an on-line documentation system with a place for people to leave comments/suggestions. The editor for each area could periodically review the comments, make the changes, add the examples or such that make sense, or leave the comments that applied to a specific situation such as installing on a different OS or in a particular situation.

So understand, that the "experienced" users may give an explanation 1 or two, or 87 times, but after that, it gets really boring -- and quite irritating -- to type the same thing over and over, if instead of the user asking the question, they did a "searcH" on the same words they asked for.

Now, if a user does a search, and says they still don't get it, and point out the area or part they don't get, then that helps everyone (maybe) by clarifying something that was unclear, or maybe had more than one interpretation.

There are two sides to every issue. Courtesy has to be afforded on BOTH sides. Remember, the "experienced" people are just like you, running their own sites, living their own lives (???), and going to their "real" jobs, and they don't get paid for sitting here answering the same questions over and over -- or, actually, for answering _ANY_ questions at all. It's all done volunteer, and perhaps you (the people complaining) need to look at why they are complaining, and try to offer up solutions that take into account everyone's position.

Just saying "people need to be nicer" or "the experienced folks need to spend more time with the newbies" doesn't cut it.

No matter how much someone gives, someone will always want more. That person can "ruin" the first person's feeling across the board. Remember, one bad apple may not spoil the whole bunch, but it _CAN_.

If there were half as many "Thank you" posts as there were complaint posts, the whole atmosphere might be different.

...... ...... end transmission.



PUGDOG® Enterprises, Inc.
FAQ:http://LinkSQL.com/FAQ
Plugins:http://LinkSQL.com/plugin
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Re: a sense of community In reply to
Pugdog,

I make it a point to say thank you when someone offers help. Might have missed one or two along the way....But I try.

And in fact, no-one is required to answer anyones questions. It is not required.

Actually, what I am hoping for is something coming from GT. Perhaps new areas of the boards for newbies... perhaps hiring someone who can do support via the board...someone who's job it is to help us out.

The user's manual will be great. And I have to repeat here: I really do believe this is some of the best software out there. (mainly from word of mouth) but I am frustrated and close to giving up.

Like I said, I have been a part of many communities on the web that offer support via a forums area. This is the most curt and sort of "lack of tolerance for newbies" forums I have been a part of. And I am *invested* in getting the help because we bought the software many months ago and still are not using it.

so, please... don't feel obligated to answer posts that annoy you. The whole point is that this software can make our lives easier, dude. If it helps you to help me out...cool. if not, hopefully someone else can. And hopefully GT can hire someone to take care of all of it's newbie support questions. :)

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Post deleted by PaulWilson In reply to
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Re: a sense of community In reply to
"No matter how much someone gives, someone will always want more. "

Pugdog, I just went back and read your post again. Do you fee burdened? It sounds like a bad relationship: no matter how much you give, they still want more from you. Even when you've given all you've got. (I'm not being sarcastic here)

My sense is that a community is something that needs fostering, needs nourishment. Something has to be given back for the more experienced folks to feel of more value.

Newbies are always going to be hungry for knowlege. And the more they learn on forums like these (in a pozitive environment) the more they tend to give back to the community. I've seen it over and over again. heck, I do it now too! (meaning, I give back to communities that helped me)

But, one of the probelms I find here, is that I am nervous to ask a question. I don't find a genreosity of spirit. I find folks who are burdened with answering my dumb questions over and over.

I search for things and I see over and over how folks are scolded for asking a question that was already answered somewhere else on the forum. I look for hours but still don't find the kind of help I am looking for.

Now, all that said, Alex has gone out of his way (in email and phone) to help me and probably many others, but he can't possibly do this all by himself...

maybe it is time to either pay the moderators for doing support via the forum or hire someone to do support via the forum.

And I still like the idea of a newbies area.

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Re: a sense of community In reply to
Paul wrote: "Also, ALL THE SUPPORT IS FREE, so be grateful, even if you get a rude reply - at least it is a FREE REPLY. Fair enough if you were paying for support and someone was rude but you AREN'T so deal with it, otherwise "experienced" users will get so annoyed that they WILL just up and leave, like Jerry for example."

wow. I guess we hit the nail on the head.

It doesn't have to be like this. Really. Really.

Why would anyone want to "help" anyone else rudely?And if you are trying to help someone out, and they are rude... simply disengage.

The only way I can understand this kind of thinking is that folks are really burnt out. Nothing left to give.

If that is true, what keeps you here giving support? Why do you keep answering newbie questions if it makes you unhappy?

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Post deleted by PaulWilson In reply to
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Re: a sense of community In reply to
I've been coming to these forums for over a year now, and myself, like most other people have asked a question or two that probably could have been answered with a little more digging in the forums. I admit it, I'm not afraid to say I've asked a question that has been answered before. But overtime as you get used to how these forums work and how long they've been here you come to relize that there is a wealth of knowledge in them. In the beginning you might not realize this for whatever reason(it's the first forum you've ever posted in, new to perl, whatever).

I also have the opinion (note "opinion") that if it frustrates you that you've answered a post a thousand times, then don't answer it again. Just leave well enough alone, someone will answer it, possibly a "newbie" that has experienced the same problem and, thus, they will increase their knowledge and become an experienced user. So, basically, if you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all. That's not meant to be mean towards any one person, just a friendly reminder for you neighborhood Mr. Rogers Smile.

Later,
Paul

http://www.fullmoonshining.com for Pearl Jam Fans
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Re: a sense of community In reply to
Evoir,
Don't be nervous, it's the internet :)

I have no idea what your trying to accomplish but, when I have a problem and can't find the answers in the forum, I use Gossamer Support. (I guess if your trying to revise the scripts that might not work.) They've always answered my requests within 24 hours and have even gone out of their way.

I think they do monitor the forums because them seem to post quite a few answers. So, I guess they already pay a support staff.

I would also have to say that their are a lot of people who help without being rude. From my own experience it can be frustrating but, keep trying though. If you can't find your answer, keep posting or try support, sooner or later you'll get there.

Good Luck

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Re: a sense of community In reply to
PaulWilson,

I think you are reading my posts as attacks on you and the other folks who you mentioned. I'm not attacking you, rather asking questions.

I have said many times that I do searches, often the results are buried in many many pages of folks scolding newbies for asking a question that has been already answered somewhere in the list of search results.

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Re: a sense of community In reply to
Thanks Clueless and cranepaul,

I appreciate the kind words. Indeed, I have been around many support forums before. And have been around this one for a year (I think). This one has a very different feel than the other ones I frequent.

I consider myself a newbie to GT becasue I haven't mastered the software (at all) and have a lot of dumb questions.



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Re: a sense of community In reply to
Just a point of fact and my 2 cents worth...

Having been involved with GT only for the past 6 months or so, and having had the opportunity of setting up about half a dozen sites and incorporating Links and chat sites into them, I quickly realized that this board was totally unorganized in it's setup and therefore not worth the effort to try and locate an answer by one's self...

...The primary reason for the individuals in the know to become totally frustrated with repetative questions, is the fact that this board doesn't have the ability to categorize items in proper order...

The abiltiy of finding an answer to a guestion via the search field that this board provides, is totally inadaquate and provides absolutely no conclusive results other than locating a multitude of threads that incorporate the keywords searched... Because of the fact that there are so many repetative questions and answers to those questions such as: "search the site", the individual looking for an answer to his/her question just give's up and then repeats the same question again...

I have bugged Paul's butt about setting up a properly organized forum/chat site for months now, as I know he and I have the ability to do so, but for some odd reason he keeps on ignoring me come's back here for more... I guess it's because of his dedication to GT and his knowledge about the product(s) that Alex produce's...

One of these day's I'm gonna fly over to the UK and smack that boy across da back o de 'ed... :-)))))))

I hereby give public notice: Paul... If u don't do it, I will...

...ed
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Re: a sense of community In reply to
Hi Evoir,

Thanks for your comments. You are not alone, this is something I have heard before, and I recognize as a problem.

Things we are currently working on include:

* Links SQL 2.1.0 which will include a full user manual (approximately 90 pages with walk through on things from editing templates, to adding custom fields, to basic funcitonality). We have a draft done, and are probably looking at about two weeks before 2.1.0 is out.
* A support tracking system. Requests sent in via our support forum are now managed much better.

Things we are planning on dedicating more resources to once one of our new projects is finished:

* A manager dedicated to handling the resouces area, and not only validating/approving resources (which lately has just turned into a client featured site), but actively working on building up the faq.
* A stronger precense in the forum. I still manage to post 40 to 50 messages a week, but I'm working on slowly getting other people in the office involved.

What we need from people are:

* Veteran users to not post the knee-jerk reply, but rather submit it to the resource center as a FAQ. We will work on formatting it better and making it look nice, but just identifying it as something that is a very common question. This will also help us in building better documentation.

* Novice users to read the available resources before posting, and to realize that this is a user contributed community. Unless you see the word 'Staff' under the users name, they are answering on their own time, please respect that. If you need immediate help, you can always contact us in a variety of ways.

Please let me know if you have any questions or comments about this. I really do value the community surounding our products.

Cheers,

Alex

--
Gossamer Threads Inc.
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Re: a sense of community In reply to
Alex,

Thank you for your reply. One thing I don't understand. You wrote "Unless you see the word 'Staff' under the users name, they are answering on their own time, please respect that."

I am not sure what you mean. What does "respect that" mean? If folks are answering on their own time, they should only answer if they feel comfortable answering and engaging.

I have seen such rudeness disguised as politeness here it is quite unbelieveable. And most often than not it comes from the same people. I have a PM in my mailbox where someone is warning me "not to cross him" because I didn't understand and questioned his offering of "free" support.

I'm telling you all, I have been on many support forums, and I run a forum myself with more than 4,000 members. It is a sytematic thing. I mean, look at this thread and the way some folks have responded. I am just talking about building community here and folks are freaking out.

I appreciate the work you are doing, Alex. But... it seems to me that you all need a community manager or something. (Where *is* Mr. Rogers when you need him? )

Maybe you could have someone from outside this community (your partner, mother or sister) read *just this thread* and get some feedback as to how folks are treating each other around here. If you take a look from the outside, it is pretty startling.

Cheers,
Evoir

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Re: a sense of community In reply to
In Reply To:
One thing I don't understand. You wrote "Unless you see the word 'Staff' under the users name, they are answering on their own time, please respect that."
What I mean by that is it's not all one sided. There are a lot of threads where people expect fast replies, and get rude when they don't get it, or expect free mods and complain when it doesn't work the first time.

Please don't confuse this with me saying one excuses the other, as it clearly doesn't.

Cheers,

Alex

--
Gossamer Threads Inc.
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Re: a sense of community In reply to
Thanks for explaining. That would make sense :)

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Re: a sense of community In reply to
Hi,

This is an interesting subject, and I think there are definately several different user groups that both use GT's products and the support forums.

Beginners (Newbies) - They're just starting out with their sites or are new to GT's products and have little or no knowledge of perl, mysql, scripts, servers, etc. and can't really modify install things without a fair bit of help and guidance, and quite a lot of hand-holding Smile

Intermediate (Twiddler's) - They have some knowledge of the workings of their sites/servers and can do some basic mods and tweaks, and understand a little bit of what they're doing, but they still need help from time to time with really complex stuff Smile

Advanced (Boff's) - They have a wide range of experience and almost encyclopedic knowledge of GT's products, perl, mysql, linux, NT, and other related server/programming stuff and can do 10 things at once with their eyes closed and hands tied behind their backs ... lol Smile

I think Newbies need a hand with discovering and using the forum Search tool, and could benefit from having the most common queries bundled together in some form of index such as a FAQ, especially for new installations. It may also help, as has already been suggested, to have a couple of 'newbie' forums where people can dip-their-toes and post their questions in a less 'hostile' environment (and I don't mean personally hostile, I just mean that the newbie areas would be less overwhelming, friendlier and therefore easier to get the hang of and use). This could also give people a step-up to becoming Twiddler's ... Smile

Twiddler's should get along fine in either forum as they'll be able to explain things in-depth to the Newbie's and won't be frightened of the Boff's - they'll have a better idea of what they want to do or be able to explain a little better about their problems (with their scripts/sites, not their lives ... Smile).

Boff's will be able to negate the frequently repeated requests for the same information/mods/etc. and 'talk tech' with each other without being frustrated by the repeated posts from Newbie's.

Of course, anyone can read and join-in with any of the forums and that should never change IMHO, but I think it might help to section-off the types of requests into more defined groups so that people posting replies in the Newbie's forums will understand that they have to give that little bit more of an explanation and possibly more in-depth instructions. In the same token, Newbie's will feel that little bit easier about posting their 'stupid' questions (I mean feeling like their questions are 'stupid', not that the questions are stupid - there's no such thing, right!!).

I have benefitted from GT's forums in many more ways than simply learning about their products, and I've always enjoyed using the forums. I've had no-end of help from many of the Twiddler's and Boff's here, and was once a complete and total Newbie so I understand that it can all seem a little daunting and overwhelming in the beginning.

Ultimately, it's up to the individual users of the forums to set the 'tone' and if a few people are a little less patient than you'd like or post unconstructive replies, you've just got to learn to ignore them - as opposed to replying with similarly 'useless' replies!!!!

Just my personal thoughts .....

All the best
Shaun

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Re: a sense of community In reply to
Sorry, just another thought ....

I wonder if it would be possible to give people an 'Experience Level' setting in their profile that would be displayed under their name with their posts?

This could give other users a guide when replying!

All the best
Shaun

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Re: a sense of community In reply to
I always thought this was a good explanation - universal -
http://www.somethingawful.com/guides/forums/

lol.


BTW, qango, with respect, isn't the posting number and reg date (not to mention previous posts), a much less time consuming, dynamic and objective method of ascertaining experience level?
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Re: a sense of community In reply to
Hey quago,

Nice to meet you. Thanks for your thoughts.

One other thing: when more experienced folks respond to a newbie question with a "do a search" or "we've discussed that before" or even a very precise answer that doesn't *really explain it to a newbie*.... it seems like it cuts off conversation. Like no-one else responds because "the answer was given" even though, as I am a newbie, I might need more information to understand the situation. I find that often my questions get answered very quickly, and probably very accurately, but in a way I don't understand.

I really recommend a "newbie" area for each product. I think it will help the newbies and twiddlers get to know each other more :)

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Re: a sense of community In reply to
andy_c,

That's hilarious!

Thanks for the link.

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Re: a sense of community In reply to
Here's my 2 cents............

Some of the most rude posts come from the 'moderators' of this board. Then when their rudeness is responded to they simple edit or delete their posts. They claim to be 'helping' (like Mother Teresa) but, what their really doing is promoting and selling their services.

Seems to me that Gossamer should at least recognize who these people are and remove them, at least as "Moderators". I would think that as a Moderator of this board they must represent Gossamer Threads, it's beyond me why a company would endorse such representation.

What it comes down to is that this forum is a extension of Gossamer Threads. Gossamer made a decision that this forum would be their 'how to manual' and ultimately they're responsible for the 'feel' of this forum.


(I'm sure I'll now never receive a response to any post I make)





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