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Table Height

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Table Height
I'm trying to create a layout similar to:

Code:
+-----------------------------+
+ Header +
+-----------------------------+
+ Content +
+ +
+ +
+ +
+ +
+-----------------------------+
+ Footer +
+-----------------------------+

......I've created a table with the necessary tr/td's but the content cell won't force the footer to the bottom. If I specify height="100%" then W3C won't validate.

Any ideas how I can force the table to have a 100% height and make sure the footer is at the bottom?

Last edited by:

Paul: Sep 29, 2002, 2:02 PM
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Re: [Paul] Table Height In reply to
I struggled with this for a long time and never got it. We've even talked about this before, you may recall:

http://www.gossamer-threads.com/...orum.cgi?post=194230

I found a way to do it that worked with IE6 (using height=100% for the "ubertable") but it was all screwy with Netscape and on a Mac. I don't think there is a way that is compatible with old browsers. Using that height=100% attribute will work on IE6 and NS6+ on a PC. Presumably future browsers will offer better support for css position declarations, but the current support for that property is pretty weak.

Fractured Atlas :: Liberate the Artist
Services: Healthcare, Fiscal Sponsorship, Marketing, Education, The Emerging Artists Fund
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Re: [hennagaijin] Table Height In reply to
height="100%" works with IE6 and NS6

That is my best solution at the moment but I was just concerned that it didn't validate with W3C.....although it works as desired.

Unsure
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Re: [Paul] Table Height In reply to
Ugh. Use CSS and DIVs. Dump those tables. You've got *much* greater control using CSS. For example, I recently did a site where some complex tables where needed and I ran into a lot of headaches so I dumped tables and used CSS. Here's the results:

http://penweddig.fbagroup.co.uk/...rospectus/index.html

- wil
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Re: [Wil] Table Height In reply to
Hate to say it, Wil, but have you looked at that design in NS4.7? Probably not what you have in mind. Certainly I can't throw stones - my site looks like awful with NS4.7. But at least with tables, NS4.7 users aren't completely excluded.

I suppose it depends what your users will be using... A large percentage of users use either Macs or NS4.7, so I'm forced to spend a lot of time stressing about cross-platform compatibility.

Fractured Atlas :: Liberate the Artist
Services: Healthcare, Fiscal Sponsorship, Marketing, Education, The Emerging Artists Fund
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Re: [hennagaijin] Table Height In reply to
Here's a nice little article...

http://glish.com/css/hacks.asp
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Re: [hennagaijin] Table Height In reply to
Hi

I have looked at it with NS and any other browsers that doesn't properly support stylesheets, yes -- awful isn't it! :-)

The site, however, is for a very specific target audience. All users will be using IE 5.5 and above on Windows 2000 for the duration of the site.

However, I am so in favour of ditching TABLE tags and other recommendations made by the W3 in favour of stylesheets. It makes much more sense, cleaner code and much greater control.

- wil
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Re: [Wil] Table Height In reply to
That's a nice luxury to have. I would very much like to move to more standards compliant coding, but I just can't justify the move when it would serve to alienate or even completely bar 10-15% of our website's visitors, especially since there wouldn't really be much of an upside from the user's perspective.

Here's a question for you. The numbers seem to indicate that current browsers are likely to "stay current", presumably since they all have some kind of automatic upgrade notification feature. But the people using old browsers without those features don't seem to ever consider upgrading, and many wouldn't know how if they wanted to. How long will we need to wait for, say, 98%+ of the web using community to be doing it on a modern platform? Is this just a function of actual PC lifecycles, since presumably such users upgrade when they buy new PCs? 5 years, maybe?

That only works for the luddites, however. As you probably know, there are strange pockets of resistence even among the relatively well informed. All of New York University's faculty and administration, for example, uses NS4.7 as its default browsing software, even on top-of-the-line modern PCs. I will say that if we ever reach a point where the only major impediment to standards-compliant coding is the existence of such holdouts, then it becomes reasonable to consider a "counter-attack" - simply coding to W3C specs and letting the IT departments deal with the inevitable complaints when sites don't display properly.

Fractured Atlas :: Liberate the Artist
Services: Healthcare, Fiscal Sponsorship, Marketing, Education, The Emerging Artists Fund
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Re: [hennagaijin] Table Height In reply to
Well, I really don't know. Interesting point you made tying the lifecycle of outdated software to a PCs lifecycle. Microsoft claims it's operating systems are only supported for a period of four years max, so that makes Windows 98 outdated software if people ever bother to upgrade. I think broadband is making a change much easier, too. To download the latest version of any browser over a 56k modem is really not an option for the majority of people.

I know of a few insitutions that use Netscape 4.7 and stick to it. I'm not sure if this is to do with their support for the browser over the years or what. I remember Netscape starting out giving free browsers to Universities and Educational institutions. It was the browser of choice for them all back then because of this. I'm not sure if this has any effect on their decision making.

Designing out sites these days, however, we've taken the decision to design to the latest browers supporting stylesheets properly. All other browsers should be able to still view the content, it wll just be jumbled all over the shop. We're redesigning our corporate website at the moment, and that's going to be 100% stylesheets and xhtml. It's looking really really good. *Finally* we can dicated exactly how we want the page to look and where we want things to appear. It's a great relief. Yes, I know we're alienating a minority of our visitors but this is a concious decision.

It's just so so so nice to throw out tables and never use them anymore. You wouldn't believe how much of a liberating feeling that is! Being able to accurately place things on the page, and design two copies of the same page for print media and screen media with the switch of a stylesheet is amazing, and a huge bonus in the field of work we do.

- wil
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Re: [Wil] Table Height In reply to
Good point about Broadband. As for MS's 4-year claim... That means relatively little to anyone not in corporate IT. I know of multiple organizations in my line of work (the arts) who are using either Windows 3.1 or Mac System 6/7. They just don't place any kind of premium on procuring new computer technology. With the scarcity of funding for the arts in America, I can't say I blame them. They're more worried about repairing a dance floor so it won't destroy someone's knees, for example. For better or for worse, as long as my company's existence is dependent on its ability to serve those kinds of organizations, and if we want to provide many of our services through a web interface, we can't ignore their needs. That said, I fully acknowledge that your situation appears to be largely different. Frankly, I'm a little jealous. =)

Re: being able to switch between print and screen media merely by changing stylesheets... That sounds like a pretty incredible tool - I actually haven't heard of that technique before. Got any informative links on the subject that you'd be willing to share?

Fractured Atlas :: Liberate the Artist
Services: Healthcare, Fiscal Sponsorship, Marketing, Education, The Emerging Artists Fund
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Re: [hennagaijin] Table Height In reply to
Quote:
Re: being able to switch between print and screen media merely by changing stylesheets... That sounds like a pretty incredible tool - I actually haven't heard of that technique before. Got any informative links on the subject that you'd be willing to share?

Just edit your style tag.

<style type="text/css" media="screen">

<style type="text/css" media="all">

<style type="text/css" media="print">

<style type="text/css" media="screen, print">

etc...
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Re: [hennagaijin] Table Height In reply to
This is the best site I've found so far...

http://www.w3schools.com/css/default.asp
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Re: [Paul] Table Height In reply to
Actually, I've used that site a lot before - for some reason I never noticed the section about media types. So if I'm using an external stylesheet, then presumably I can just have different sections for each media type? As in:

@screen
{
p {....}
div.footer {...}
...
}

@print
{
p {....}
div.footer {...}
...
}

And so on?

Fractured Atlas :: Liberate the Artist
Services: Healthcare, Fiscal Sponsorship, Marketing, Education, The Emerging Artists Fund
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Re: [Paul] Table Height In reply to
Hmmm I'm just trying to change my design to use DIV's to see how it looks but it seems to be more annoying that with tables.

Trying to create a neat layout for a form using div's is such a pain in the ass :(
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Re: [Paul] Table Height In reply to
Hm. I've found it a lot easier. I've managed to shrink 200 lines of code down to about 50, if less. A good book is always very helpful as a guide, however.

- wil
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Re: [hennagaijin] Table Height In reply to
Well, yes, a part of the problem here in the UK I think is the latest TAX initatives. The UK Government are giving tax breaks for companies to buy new IT hardware, but they don't recognize software in this category. So people can go out and buy new hardware and write it's depreciation off in the first year, but it's not the same deal with software -- which, I think, makes buying software less attractive.

- wil