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Bill & Melinda
All those people who criticize Bill Gates should visit this site...

http://www.gatesfoundation.org/
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Re: [Paul] Bill & Melinda In reply to
I don't personally have a problem with him. Most people have the problem with the amount of money he has. The way I look at it, he's earned his way...and setup an OS and other pieces of software that have changed the way we work today. In my eyes, he has earned every penny. Its nice to see that he spends it on others too....like the link you provided Smile

Andy (mod)
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Re: [Andy] Bill & Melinda In reply to
Hehheh...quite a cool feature on the top part of their website is the changing image Smile Every time you refresh the page it changes from one in a few images :)

Andy (mod)
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Re: [Andy] Bill & Melinda In reply to
Would you expect anything ledd than a quality site? Smile
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Re: [Andy] Bill & Melinda In reply to
I just have a "problem" with his unethical business practice. They can give as much money as they want to good will, and that is excellent, but the amount of smaller software producers that have been unfairly pushed out of business over the last few years is very wrong.

- wil
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Re: [Wil] Bill & Melinda In reply to
Deja Vous?

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Re: [Andy] Bill & Melinda In reply to
It's kind of an exhausted debate or flogging a dead horse so to speak.
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Re: [Wil] Bill & Melinda In reply to
Hi Wil,

While I respect your opinion about Gates and MS I also have my opinion which is "Only the strong survive in business". Yes he more than likely used pressure to buy companies or to make them go away, That's ethical business practice in my book.

If MS is wrong then what about all the other industries that have monlith companies as well?

He is good at what he does and others are jealous of it and want his money so they sue because MS has marketshare, they sue because he wont add their product to HIS, they sue because his product is better marketed, they sue because he knows how to make a profit and they don't. (see the latest news about AOL/Netscape). Sun can't get people to use their products so they sue because MS wont add their product into the MS product. Well if Sun made something with MASS market appeal then MS would surely want it. But alas Sun does not have MASS market appeal so MS does not want it. In fact, they said "to hell with Java" in XP and are well into the development on .NET. So Sun is going byebye in the not to distant future because they do not know how to MASS market. Sure they know how to slam MS at every conference, sure they know how to hire a legal team to go after MS everytime they get a sore nose from crying so much in their beer.

Do you think since Coke has global share that they should include Pepsi in their distribution? Do you think since Honda has significant marketshare that they should also distribute Kawasaki and Suzuki? THe list goes on and on...

"All is not fair in love and war". Well "and in business" should be added to that statement. It is not about being fair, giving the other guy a break or taking it easy on the little guy. It is about profit! It is about marketshare! It is about control! It is about being the best! There is always a second place in every industry, it just seems that in the software industry they forgot to learn about being a good sport when they lose.

Cool

Last edited by:

Teambldr: Aug 14, 2002, 9:08 AM
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Re: [Teambldr] Bill & Melinda In reply to
The analogies fall short. Try if Honda owned the highways and only Hondas were able to drive on them, that would be a little closer to the truth. MS exploited their monopoly in the o/s market to push out a lot of software companies, clearly violating US antitrust laws. Now if you don't agree with the laws that's one thing, but I don't think any reasonable person would say they didn't violate existing laws.

Cheers,

Alex
--
Gossamer Threads Inc.
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Re: [Alex] Bill & Melinda In reply to
Ah...but remember ALex that there are still laws that say "You are not allowed to CRANK your automobile in the middle of the road" and so on...

Laws are not meant to be the final word and the Antitrust laws were developed way before the software industry became what it is today.

Laws, even though they are put into law are constantly challenged for their validity. For example, in the state of Colorado the voters voted in a law that stated "No special treatment can be given to a person based upon thier race, creed, color, sex, religious beliefs and sexual orientation". (Sounds a bit like the Contitution doesn't it). The voters voted this bill in by the highest margin ever seen in that state. After it became law it was resended by a judge (one man) stating that it was unconstitutional to add "sexual orientation" to the bill and that without it there would be no reason for it based upon the Constitution.

A simular incident occurred in California relative to Illegal Alien Medical Benefits.

The point is actually rather simple. Each case will effect change upon law as well as law upon a case.

I understand your anology about Honda and the roads. The point I was making there really was that there are numerous successful companies that are only a lawsuit away from a monopoly. This is a VERY slippery slope to business and the success of capitalism.

If GT was the only manufacturer of a database program such as Links SQL, and you included it with all new servers bought world wide, and you had hundreds of people developing products for it, and new products being developed for it for the next ten years along with hundreds of outside firms depending on your product for third party applications, and another company was not a smart as you in marketing, not as powerful as you in developing partnerships, not as focused as you on developing the worlds best, would you think they would have the right to sue GT for unfair business practice and to claim a monopoly?

Even though MS had control over thier code and yours is open the results are the same. With a 70 plus marketshare anyone can be looked at as a monopoly. But does that mean they should be sued for it?

How is this for a monopoly, Verizon! In my local area they are the provider of all wire. So in turn they control all DSL lines. They were required by law to share so they shared everything over 10,000 feet from a central station and limited to X number of copper pairs per box. This was to all providers other than Verizon. Of course all the DSL companies that were competing in the area (Covad and others) are all now chapter 11, bought up or gone and Verizon took over as they fell off. So Verizon now has not only all of their original allocation for themselves, they also have a majority of all other pairs.

SO is that a monopoly or just good business planning?Cool
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Re: [Teambldr] Bill & Melinda In reply to
I think you are still missing my point. I don't find the fact that they had a monopoly in the o/s market (i.e. Windows) to be the problem. If they create a better o/s, or market it better, they deserve the market share they get. What I dislike is they hurt the consumer by pushing out developers who want to create software for Windows if it competes with a MS product.

For example, if MS increases the cost of Windows by 20% and bundles in Microsoft Money for free, how do you think that will impact Intuit (Quicken/Quickbooks)? How is Intuit meant to compete under these conditions, target only Mac users? It's an unlevel playing field. This is essentially what they have done for a lot of applications (Windows XP now includes cd burning software, mp3 players, etc, and is a lot more expensive then previous versions).

Or worse, imagine if they bundled free forum software into IIS. We can compete by making our products better, but we are at a serious disadvantage as MS's is always free. Not only that, but they leverage their position by forcing third party retailers, integrators and vars to use only their products or else lose favorable pricing on the o/s.

In the end, this hurts the consumer. That's what antitrust laws were designed to protect.

Do you see what I mean?

Cheers,

Alex
--
Gossamer Threads Inc.
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Re: [Alex] Bill & Melinda In reply to
How does this work in the Mac world where they do the same with iTunes and other built in software? I guess it is the same thing. OSX 10.2 has 150 new features, and while I am not a mac owner (yet), I notice a lot of what you mentioned about Microsoft would seem to apply to this operating system also and the features they appear to be adding. Nobody has said anything to Apple that I know of.


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Ian: Aug 14, 2002, 11:19 AM
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Re: [Alex] Bill & Melinda In reply to
Alex, excellent points! Perhaps in the not-so-distant future we'll see an updated photo of the one seen here : http://plexe.com/mugs/03.htm Wink

----
Cheers,

Dan
Founder and CEO

LionsGate Creative
GoodPassRobot
Magelln
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Re: [dan] Bill & Melinda In reply to
D'ya think ;)
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Re: [dan] Bill & Melinda In reply to
I love plexe.com. They have single handedly given my more laughter than I can remember!


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Re: [Ian] Bill & Melinda In reply to
Can't spell....

http://plexe.com/gates/11.htm
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Re: [Paul] Bill & Melinda In reply to
LOL. Al pacino doesnt even look likehimself in the mugshots page.


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Re: [Ian] Bill & Melinda In reply to
Neither does elvis.
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Re: [Alex] Bill & Melinda In reply to
Hi Alex,

You made one point that I very much agree with. If a developer makes something that can work on all operating systems then the manufacturer should not be hurt by a requirement of exclusivity in operating systems.

A simular thing happens in the tobacco retailing arena. PM and RJR have always had wars for mechandising, rack placement and signage. PM states that if you are in the highest level of their Masters Program you have to give them primary positioning throughout your facility and outside your facility. RJR asks for the same. So to get the best program from both is virtually impossible. But this is not an antitrust issue even though the consumer, retailer, and distributor all get hurt by higher costs and retail pricing due to this contract competition.

An example is the Cigarettes Cheaper chain of stores fell out of their contract with RJR and their price went up 10.00 per carton on RJR brands. PM loved this as there were people switching over to PM brands rather than going elsewhere to buy. The distributor cost went up, the retail went up and the consumer gets the raw end of the deal. But it is not an antitrust case. Just a case of keen competition between two major companies that cause the retailer to make a choice of which they are going to support.

As per Intuit, they work on MS and I use Intuit rather than Money. It is a choice that I made based upon quality and function rather than price. Everybody in the free world can make a choice as well. I choose Office rather than Corels stuff as it works better than Corel or Star, or any of the other office suites available. If the others were better then I would choose them! But I do not need a company that has a lesser quality product to dictate to me that I have to make a choice either. Netscape/AOL/Time Warner are whiners and sore losers and in huge financial trouble. If they would have spent those millions used on lawsuits to make a better product they might not be in the position they are today!

I also do not use the built in CD burning software in XP. I like another product better. Again, a choice.

Is Sprint/Earthlink hurting the wireless market by only using the WAP and Palm systems on their phones rather than CE or other HTML types? Yes, bery much so. But that is a choice that Spint made to exclude the others fromm having access to their digital network.

Is Sprint/Earthlink hurting people by only offering the Netscape browser in their bundle? How about AOL? How about Verizon? These companies are blocking IE so does that make them bad or an antitrust case? No. It does however make them defunct of listenting to their consumers and forcing thier own product without choice. Just a bad business decision I believe, not an antitrust.

The funny part is that when you look at the browser wars from site logs you see the truth. People prefer MS IE over all other combined. Not just because it is in with the bundle (because they get slammed left and right to use the others via AOL mailers, Earthlink, etc...) but because it is a choice to stay with it.

Another good example was the REAL network products. They really have a poor product but were awesome marketers and deal makers. They had over a 70 share at one point. And they could have maintained it if it were a better product. Now they are losing it faster than anyone thought possible to Media player and others that have better products.

In closing I believe the power of choice and the ability of a company to compete based on quality and functionality reign above all else. If the company can stomp the competition then so be it. There will be another company to come along and challenge them as well later on. And so on and so on... The companies that stay developing for the quality and functionality will always win as price is only one part of a buying decision.

Thanks for the debate. I enjoy it and your opinions are great!Cool</
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Re: [Teambldr] Bill & Melinda In reply to
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/...ol_transactions_dc_9



AOL Says May Have Overstated RevenuesWink


EDIT:
Here is another release about Verizon.
ATX Demands Millions of Dollars in Credits From VerizonCrazy

http://www.industrypages.com/...dustry_News_1485.stm

Last edited by:

Teambldr: Aug 14, 2002, 5:22 PM
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Re: [Teambldr] Bill & Melinda In reply to
Apple produces the whole widget. So, in a sense they evade the monopoly laws. Plus, with their whole 5% worldwide share I don't think they qualify yet for monopoly. Unless, they get hit for being the largest distro of *nix on the market now.

While M$ is an OS that most likely has big plans, all based on X-Box. You gonna tell me they can take on Nintendo and Sony. Nope, they're preparing for the verdict. Apple too is play wait and see. XBox is a foot in the door to Copy either Apple or Sony. I'm not sure which though.

I have no problem with Gates except for the fact that his OS is what is causing lot's of trouble on the net recently. Yes, I'm sure any other type of system would eventually be targetted but sooo many folks buy a machine and just use it. No maintaince or system upgrades. Like in other threads it was pointed out in the percentage of browser thread and over in the spammer thread. The OS maker should be more aware of it's users, and then try to lock down as much as possible. I'm not saying the OS manufacturer should be ALL responsible but they should be accounted for as much as possibly for machines going OUT the door.

hmmm ... like recall postcards you get for your car.

At one time big blue was the bully, now it's m$, who's next?

Anti-trust laws have been used in how many major cases? I don't know, except for Standard Oil, AT&T and now M$. Trust me, market collusion sucks. I pay $30 for 10kgs of rice. If I were in the States I'd pay $10. So, I'm for anti-trust laws used intelligently.

my 2 cents Angelic

openoffice + gimp + sketch ... Smile
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Re: [Teambldr] Bill & Melinda In reply to
I think what you fail to realize here is that Microsoft have been using their power to force smaller software companies out of business before they have a chance to grow and compete in the open market. Many products have come, products that are arguably much better than their Microsoft counterparts, but have been forced out of business by un-ethical business practices, before they get a chance to reach the shelves in your local computer store.

Think back all those years ago to 1987, when Caldera released a better alternative to DOS, named DR DOS. I won't go into detail here, but the following URL will give you a good insight into the troubles and the resulting lawsuit. It's a good read and a relatively fair, un-biased account.

http://www-cs-students.stanford.edu/...crosoft/caldera.html

- wil
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Re: [Wil] Bill & Melinda In reply to
Well firstly it wasn't necessarily a better alternative:

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It is important to note that DR DOS was not a perfect operating system. In a review of DR DOS 6.0 and MS-DOS 5.0, it was said that "MS-DOS 5, however, proved slightly more compatible and stable with the suite of applications PC Week Labs tested. DR DOS 6.0 encountered minor incompatibilities with some bundled enhancements."

There are always going to be Microsoft likers and haters, the never ending debate just seems silly to me now.

Last edited by:

Paul: Aug 15, 2002, 4:43 AM
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Re: [Paul] Bill & Melinda In reply to
But what I'm arguing is that it's not a 'silly debate'. It's people's lives and businesses that Microsoft have unfairly pushed out of the market. And that is just plain and simply wrong, and hence that is why the US law system is taking action.

- wil
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Re: [Wil] Bill & Melinda In reply to
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But what I'm arguing is that it's not a 'silly debate'.

Well it is because we all have our own beliefs and I believe we have all expressed them already, so why keep going around in circles arguing who is right and who is wrong?...its stupid and a waste of time, if no-one has changed "sides" after a few months of us debating then I don't think anyone is going to so it is just wasted breath.

The real fact of the matter is that none of us know the real truth or have hard evidence, we just base our opinions on what others have said or written, so just leave it up to the legal system to sort out if there is anything to sort out.

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Paul: Aug 15, 2002, 5:37 AM
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