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How do you feel about being cheated by your government

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How do you feel about being cheated by your government
Here in Europe weīve seen pictures of G.I.s held in custody by the iraq all day long. Exept the american tv-stations the al jasira made pictures (who knowīs how to spell) are broadcasted everywhere. Itīs obvious to see, that the soldiers fear for death, wich is really a more than natural reaction for any human being. And I canīt stress saying, that I feel withīem as far as it is possible thousands of kilometers away from Bagdad. But I also feel so much anger about Bush and Rumsfeld, managing to suppress those videos in the U.S., saying itīs against the convention of geneva to show pictures of p.o.w.īs. Areīnt we all seeing pictures of iraqi soldiers getting arrested all day long?? And what about Bushīs more than disscussable decisions against the UN-majority? I think you (americans) have the right to see war as it is like. Full of fear, pain and cruelties for EVERYONE who is taking part and even worse, who is unable to get out of itīs way (thinking of the civilians). Iīm sorry, but everyone who does believe in those pervert comparisons between surgical operations and war is a stupid coward that likes to see the world as simple as the american government makes them believe. It might be a european feeling, but I canīt feel proud, I feel ashamed and deeply depressed about the way things go rightnow. Try to do what you personally can do about that unhonest thingīs going on in your country. Iīve been in the states and I know that many of you guyīs are really brave and still able to think without governmental help. All the best from Germany. Alex
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Re: [Alex978] How do you feel about being cheated by your government In reply to
They're not being broadcast here in the US because their families have not been notified. And even then I doubt the American media would show images of G.I.'s who have been executed by Iraqi thugs. The interview portion may run at some time.

You do see pictures of Iraqi POWs on western media, but they're supposed be taken from a distance away and no personal interviews or humiliations. You would never see the faces of enemy dead turned to the camera for display.

These Iraqi actions are similar to the atrocities committed by German civilians against Allied air crews during World War II - the Luftwaffe on the other hand were always professional and treated Allied prisoners with respect. That's because professional military personnel treat enemy prisoners as they hope their own would be treated in similar circumstances.

The Iraqis showed this was not the way they would behave during the Iran-Iraq war and during the first Gulf War when they tortured & sexually molested our POWs

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ArmyAirForces: Mar 23, 2003, 12:44 PM
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Re: [Alex978] How do you feel about being cheated by your government In reply to
No doubt - Iīm sure being pow in a us camp is not compareable to the risk of getting cought by the iraqiīs (but do you honestly want to compare these two political structures).

Referring to that comparison with wwII (I was almost sure I will get a reply like that). I donīt know about the luftwaffe but I know about many other german units that for sure didnīt keep to any international law at all (as parts of the american army did in vietnam. By the way - I definitly do not want to compare the roles of our countries in those fights). Anyway: is it really helpful to discuss those warīs. Iīm 28 and do think Iīve got the right to talk about war as youīve got the right to talk about couloured-people-matters despite of slavery.

I just complain about us-government fighting a war without showing their people what the unpleasant outcomes are. Itīs NOT just driving through the desert and itīs NOT just a little collateral damage. And despite high-tech, when it comes to shooting bullets will hit someone even when heīs an american. O.K. you know all that. So then let the americans see those pictures of real soldiers in real combat an they die like everyone does.

Then If everybody has seen real war (and not just a version for kids younger than 16) decide if it that is what you want.

The fact is that youīre shown pictures of kurds hit by gas (And sometimes they even hire a marketing company to promote war- do you remember) . īCouse that makes America angry. But they donīt show you pictures of captured or killed troops, couse that makes amerika anxious and getīs people back to reality, away from the war course. THey start doubting about war. Please tell me - isnīt that manipulation ?? Isnīt that against principles of democracy by showing just (the well selected) half of the truth ??
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Re: [Alex978] How do you feel about being cheated by your government In reply to
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I just complain about us-government fighting a war without showing their people what the unpleasant outcomes are. Itīs NOT just driving through the desert and itīs NOT just a little collateral damage.

You gotta be kidding. The war is on tv 24 hours a day with explicit footage of bombing, fighting and more.
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Re: [Alex978] How do you feel about being cheated by your government In reply to
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And what about Bushīs more than disscussable decisions against the UN-majority?
I may be mistaken here, but I was pretty certain we had a majority, but that it was insufficient due to members in the dissenting UN opinion with veto power threatening to use said veto power regardless of the context of any further resolution regarding Iraq.

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Iīm sorry, but everyone who does believe in those pervert comparisons between surgical operations and war is a stupid coward that likes to see the world as simple as the american government makes them believe.
What are you talking about?

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How do you feel about being cheated by your government
Cheated by my government? Nope. I feel disheartened and displeased that several otherwise well-to-do countries fail to realise that with Iraq's track record there is no such chance of a peacefull disarmament or revolution. It should be the citizens of those countries who should feal cheated as the governments are doing nothing to gain the respect of outsiders and of a country in dire need of positive revolution. Hopefully as Iraq continues to use weapons Saddam says he doesn't have (scuds, for example), and break promises (setting fire to oil fields), they will see the light. Last I heard, 15 additional countries have pledged their support since the onset of the war, bringing the total to 45 pro-war.

Unhonest? Only in the sense that the war is being dubbed by some ranking officials as retaliation to 9/11. I personally see no connection between Iraq and al-Qaeda, but feel there is significant independend threat to justify an ousting of the current regime.

So are you for or against this war?

Philip
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Limecat is not pleased.
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Re: [Alex978] How do you feel about being cheated by your government In reply to
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But they donīt show you pictures of captured or killed troops, couse that makes amerika anxious and getīs people back to reality, away from the war course. THey start doubting about war. Please tell me - isnīt that manipulation ?? Isnīt that against principles of democracy by showing just (the well selected) half of the truth ??


We have principle of making sure the families of those killed or captured find out about it first from the military, through official notification with a casualty assistance team to help the family.

You may prefer they learn about it from live TV, but most reasoning people do not. The networks also do not wish to bear the brunt of public displeasure at such insensitive behavior.

As to the realities of war. I don't think the public is shielded from it at all. There are journalists all over Iraq broadcasting LIVE from the front lines, and beyond.

We also have an all volunteer force, with thousands of living veterans and the surviving families of the dead, all who remember well. The experience of war is part of our living history.

As a young Marine S/Sgt said to the ITN reporter last night, citizens who think they've not gotten a clear image of what war is about can go join up to find out for themselves - first hand.


EDIT: So to would I add that the reality of September 11, 2001, has not faded from anyone's memory. It is with those images in mind, and prevention of future events far graver, that the majority of the US public supports the removal of Saddam's regime.

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ArmyAirForces: Mar 23, 2003, 2:22 PM
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Re: [Alex978] How do you feel about being cheated by your government In reply to
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So then let the americans see those pictures of real soldiers in real combat an they die like everyone does.


And now that the families have been contacted, one news outlet has run stills from the video, but framed in such a way so as not to show their faces.

This information for the American public will mostly serve to stiffen resolve, and those who executed our POWs, and ordered this action, will pay for their crimes. US troops will also be keenly motivated, not disheartened.
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Re: [Alex978] How do you feel about being cheated by your government In reply to
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one news outlet has run stills from the video, but framed in such a way so as not to show their faces.
I just saw the pictures on CNN and have to draw back my complaint. I surely did not vote for showing faces.
I may be mistaken here, but I was pretty certain we had a majority,

You are mistaken here. The UN consists out of a few less than 200 member nations. Rumsfeld calls 46 of them allies. I really doubt that all those nations like that. The overwhelming majority of those 46 are highly dependend on US economics (who is not) and have been visited not by government officials but economic high players (such as some good old friends from the oil industrie) just before they changed their attitude by "free will".

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So to would I add that the reality of September 11, 2001, has not faded from anyone's memory. It is with those images in mind, and prevention of future events far graver, that the majority of the US public supports the removal of Saddam's regime.

All of us (exept some brainwashed muslim extremists) suffered aside with the US on Sptember 11. I myself was sitting in front off my TV and have honestly been weeping for the first time since approximatly tens of years. But do you really think the States (and the world) will get a saver place by the iraq invasion? My god - the future will unfortunately tell you something else.

Just right know the turks seem to use the situation invading the kurdish aereas illegaly. That will have deep impact on terrorist attacs against europe because weīve got Nato forces in turkey an PKK activists everywhere in our homelands. Thanks a lot George, we were really looking forward to that. What do you think should we attack the turks? Please do not tell me that itīs not a consequence of war. Any of those countless old conflicts in the region could break up. Are the american forces really able to control that? Do you really think those arab countries are comparable to germanyīs situation after WWII. Then you should compare our political history before adolf hitler with the iraqi history. All this is just too simple. Iīm sorry - but anyone who does inform himself aside the official statements from the US government knows about the impact of that war on all of us - and it will definitly be no change to the better.
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Re: [Alex978] How do you feel about being cheated by your government In reply to
Just because only 45 pledged military support doesn't mean that we didn't have another 100 or more backing resolutions for action. Remember, a majority doesn't necessarily matter because some UN members can veto anything for whatever reason they feel. Just like how in the states if a bill passes in both houses with 100% approval, the president can still veto part or all of the bill if he so pleases. That in mind, we stopped wasting our time in the UN and took action ouselves.

Actual numbers have probably not been released so squabling over this is pointless. The fact is that a significant number of UN members failed to notice the 12 years that passed without positive change and that future peacefull diplomatic change was highly unlikely. Either that or they had ulterior motives for delaying actions, extending inspection deadlines, and refusing to back future resolutions.

Why the hell are you blaming George W Bush for Turkey's military presence in the Kurdish area? Turkey is using our preoccupation with ousting Iraq's gov't to slip by us to increase their existing presence in the Kurdish area in the north of Iraq. Their perogative, however, is not to go at war with the Kurds, but to pressure the Kurds not to secede from Iraq or allow mass exodus to Turkey. An increased Kurdish population in Turkey or a Kurdish state will supposedly cause high tentions in the bordering regions. This was inevitable, as the Kurds would have likely wanted to secede even under a peaceful regime change.

So I take it you're against the war. You would rather we allowed Saddam's tyrant regime to stay in power and continue his atrocities than to sacrifice our soldiers for the well being of the Iraqis and the safety of neighboring countries. Allowing the UN weapons inspectors to inventory Iraq was never going to make Saddam have a sudden change of heart. You must admit that, or your just playing dumb.

Philip
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Limecat is not pleased.
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Re: [fuzzy thoughts] How do you feel about being cheated by your government In reply to
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So I take it you're against the war. You would rather we allowed Saddam's tyrant regime to stay in power and continue his atrocities than to sacrifice our soldiers for the well being of the Iraqis and the safety of neighboring countries. Allowing the UN weapons inspectors to inventory Iraq was never going to make Saddam have a sudden change of heart. You must admit that, or your just playing dumb.

But you can't ignore that the miority of the world population is against this war, for example 80 percent in Europe (also 60% of the people in Spain and G.B.).
I'm a friend of the states. I was often in your country, but as a friend I have to say that you are going into a wrong way.


All over the world I can feel and see the Anti-Americanism which is in fact Antibushism (against the politic of your president). With Al Gore or Clinton this would have never been happend. Please be careful, even the USA needs friends in the world.

This war is not necessary and is "dumb":

- you can't fight terrorism with conventional weapons. Terrorism is caused by injustice. Is it justice to free the Iraqis from Hussein by killing them?
If you lose your father, killed by a American bomb, I sware you, you would fight your whole life against America.

- you just can fight against terrorism by supporting poor people and giving them justice. This war is the biggest gift for Osama: Tousands, millions of arabics are now ready to fight against the western countries. A fight we can't win. I'm afraid of it.

- the Iraq was under control while the UN-Inspectors were in the country. 1998 Clinton's government said that the Iraq is not longer dangerous for the States

- Saddam has NOTHING to do with 9-11. He is neither a fanatic moslem nor a friend of Ibn Laden (by the way: you still have no evidence that Osama has something to to with 9-11, your "free press" only repeated it so often that the world believed it).

He IS a dictator and a shame for his country. He HAS killed a lot of people (that was in the early 90s, they were killed by American, British and German gas and nobody was interested in overtrowing him that time). And now he is only Bush's substitute because he could not catch Osama.

- No terrorist of 9-11 were an Iraqi nor an Afghan. They were all Saudi-Arabic. Why don't you attac them? Cause you need the Saudi-Arabic oil.

- Saddam Hussein is a dictator. He was financed and supported by the CIA in the late 80s to fight against the moslems of the Iran.

- this war is a offensive not a defensive war. Those wars are forbidden by international rights. Therefore 11 states in the UN were against the war, just 4 supported the war.
Do you really think that Saddam has the possibilitys to reach your country, when your government says that he has in comparison with 1991 only 1/3 of his military power.

- during the UN-Embargo 5000 children died every month because they had nothing to eat.
This fact Saddam used for his propaganda against the States and the free world. And this is our fault. Now we kill this people. What will they think?

And there are many other arguments against the war... you showed the world fighting a war without the UN. Many other countries will follow.

Do you really know what WAR means? It's easy to say; but in your country you lost one building (I'm praying for more than 3000 dead civilian in NYC and over 6000 dead civilian in Afganistan), you never had a real war in your country. Had you ever the experience what it means to lose whole cities, states, a country with hundred of thousand killed people. Everything damaged...
Europe had a war like this. And therefore they know what war means and they are againt war.

War is no solution. You'll see: You will win the fight, but in the same way you will not win the war against terrorism.

So please think about what your saying. I know it's not easy for you, entertained by a press, which lost the free speach.

In the beginning I said that I'm a friend of the American Country and the American People. I like your country. And I hope you will change your mind because in future it will not be easy for me to say this if I don't want to be condemned by the people surrounding me.

An old Europe
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Re: [Benderunit] How do you feel about being cheated by your government In reply to
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This war is not necessary and is "dumb":

I've never really understood this view point. There has been an abundance of evidence over the past few months and even during the war, to justify military action.

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- you can't fight terrorism with conventional weapons. Terrorism is caused by injustice. Is it justice to free the Iraqis from Hussein by killing them?

It is Saddam's regime they are fighting, not terrorists, although terrorists have been targetted in Iraq. As for freeing Iraqi's by killing them, in order to remove an evil dictator a certian amount of force has to be used. So far I think under 50 Iraqi's have been killed. It is unfortunate, but if the end result is that Saddam's regime is toppled and the lives if thousands and thousands of Iraqi's are saved from Saddams clutches, then yes, it is justice.

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If you lose your father, killed by a American bomb, I sware you, you would fight your whole life against America.

Well that depends how he was killed and why.

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- you just can fight against terrorism by supporting poor people and giving them justice. This war is the biggest gift for Osama: Tousands, millions of arabics are now ready to fight against the western countries. A fight we can't win. I'm afraid of it.

I very much doubt there are millinos ready to fight. I'm sure a lot are very resentful but they only voice their opinions and would never take the matter further. It is a relatively small number of people wishing to partake in terrorism. Unfortunately as was seen on 9/11 only a small number of people are needed to kill thousands.

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- Saddam has NOTHING to do with 9-11. He is neither a fanatic moslem nor a friend of Ibn Laden (by the way: you still have no evidence that Osama has something to to with 9-11, your "free press" only repeated it so often that the world believed it).

Who is linking Saddam with 9/11?....no-one I know, this is about WMD.

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Why don't you attac them? Cause you need the Saudi-Arabic oil.

It always boils down to oil when people opposing war are struggling to come up with a solid argument :)

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Do you really think that Saddam has the possibilitys to reach your country, when your government says that he has in comparison with 1991 only 1/3 of his military power.

It's more a case of saving Israeli's and Kuwaities (amongst others). thankfully the US/British have the balls to defend defenseless countries.

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I'm praying for more than 3000 dead civilian in NYC and over 6000 dead civilian in Afganistan

Mmm I'm tempted to say something in response to that but maybe you could clarify what you mean first incase you made a typo?

By the way, is "Bender Unit" the military unit you belong to? Cool

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Paul: Mar 24, 2003, 8:42 AM
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Re: [Benderunit] How do you feel about being cheated by your government In reply to
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But you can't ignore that the miority of the world population is against this war
I assume, despite your typo, that you admit the minority is against the war. So you can't ignore the majority that are for the war, either.

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With Al Gore or Clinton this would have never been happend.
I highly doubt that. Ciinton had no problem bombing foreign countries during his presidency.

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Is it justice to free the Iraqis from Hussein by killing them?
If you mean by killing Hussein and his regime, yes. If you mean the Iraqis themselves, well that's collateral damage. We are not intentionally killing innocent civillians, but it is inevitable. Name a war when no civillians were killed, I beg you.

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Saddam has NOTHING to do with 9-11
Again, no one really believes it does, but that is the story that is being fed to us by some news services and ranking officials.

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1998 Clinton's government said that the Iraq is not longer dangerous for the States
A lot can change in 5 years buddy.

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Saddam Hussein is a dictator. He was financed and supported by the CIA in the late 80s to fight against the moslems of the Iran.
Saddam was not a threat during his early years of power and was considered an alley at one time. Wow, things do in fact change in just a few years.

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Do you really think that Saddam has the possibilitys to reach your country
Why not? Al-Qaeda had no problem killing 3000 US civilians despite it's headquarters being thousands of miles away in Afganistan. Bombs, missiles, and guns are the only way to kill people.

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during the UN-Embargo 5000 children died every month because they had nothing to eat.
Well maybe if Saddam didn't use 95% of Iraqis income to build his palaces maybe his country would be a bit better off.

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you never had a real war in your country.
All wars are real, and there have been wars-a-plenty in the United States. Which US history book did you read?

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War is no solution. You'll see: You will win the fight, but in the same way you will not win the war against terrorism.
Since war is not a solution, I'd like you hear your plans for peacefull revolution. If you are allowing Saddam to continue in power, how will you turn his regime into "good little law-abiding boys"? If you you are for removing the regime, what method of diplomacy is going to work?

Philip
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Limecat is not pleased.
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Re: [fuzzy thoughts] How do you feel about being cheated by your government In reply to
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I assume, despite your typo, that you admit the minority is against the war. So you can't ignore the majority that are for the war, either.
Sorry, the majority is against war. It's the fact.

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Clinton had no problem bombing foreign countries during his presidency.
It was to save international rights and human lifes, by the way it was the whole NATO.

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If you mean by killing Hussein and his regime, yes. If you mean the Iraqis themselves, well that's collateral damage. We are not intentionally killing innocent civillians, but it is inevitable. Name a war when no civillians were killed, I beg you.
There is no clean war without dead civillians. This war is not necessary, the Iraq was under control when the UN was in the country. Only Bush wanted the war, long time ago. And the way he started it IS illegal. There are international rights. You show the world fighting a war without the UN. So any other country is allowed to. I guess that's not the thing you want to have...

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Again, no one really believes it does, but that is the story that is being fed to us by some news services and ranking officials
WMD... the States have the biggest WMD. And if there is no one controlling you like the UN, there will only count the right of power. And there are many countries who perhaps have WMD and feel now free to attack anyone they want to.
Piont is, the States have to go ahead as a democratic model. This failed.

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A lot can change in 5 years buddy
But nothing has changed in Iraq since 1991!

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Do you really think that Saddam has the possibilitys to reach your country -

Why not? Al-Qaeda had no problem killing 3000 US civilians despite it's headquarters being thousands of miles away in Afganistan. Bombs, missiles, and guns are the only way to kill people.
This danger grows now with a terrible war. If you win against the war, the danger is not banned. The whole region will collapse. There are many different ethic groups.

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Well maybe if Saddam didn't use 95% of Iraqis income to build his palaces maybe his country would be a bit better off.
In this point you are right you are right. Anyway it's our responsibility don't let them die.

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All wars are real, and there have been wars-a-plenty in the United States. Which US history book did you read?
I'm sorry. Since there was no war for some generations things like pain and hurt have been forgotten.
I think I knew more about your history than you about mine :)

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Since war is not a solution, I'd like you hear your plans for peacefull revolution. If you are allowing Saddam to continue in power, how will you turn his regime into "good little law-abiding boys"? If you you are for removing the regime, what method of diplomacy is going to work?
Of course everyone wants to remove the regime but killing the regime's people can't be the solution.

If once you start to remove bad regimes, you would have to fight wars against quarter of all countries in the world. Or is the regime in North corea or Pakistan better than the Iraq? And they HAVE nuclear bombs.
The UN is the place to discuss and solute problems in the world.
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Re: [Benderunit] How do you feel about being cheated by your government In reply to
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The UN is the place to discuss and solute problems in the world.

The UN have limited power and influence as could be seen recently. They were never going to find Saddam's weapons no matter how long they looked and if they had been left to inspect the likely result is that by the time they did find something, Saddam would have already taken a chunk out of Israel or Kuwait, or indeed Iraq.

Within a few days of war we have already seen evidence of Saddam's lies regarding SCUD missiles. That's more evidence in three days than a team of inspectors found in several months.

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And the way he started it IS illegal.

No it's not. Resolution 1441 clearly stated military action was authorized unless Saddam fully complied.

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WMD... the States have the biggest WMD.

I don't think you are quite clear on the issues involved. It is quite acceptable for any country to own these weapons. The issue is *how* they are used. The US don't go around bombing their own people or the Europeans and can be trusted to own such weapons.

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And there are many countries who perhaps have WMD and feel now free to attack anyone they want to.

I'm not really sure what this relates to. No-one has used a weapon of mass destruction.

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But nothing has changed in Iraq since 1991!

You are correct...Saddam is killing his own people and others and has been for decades.

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The whole region will collapse.

I very much doubt it. The Iraqi's will be liberated and will be able to enjoy life.

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I'm sorry. Since there was no war for some generations things like pain and hurt have been forgotten.
I think I knew more about your history than you about mine :)

Shame you don't know more about the topic you are discussing =)

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Of course everyone wants to remove the regime but killing the regime's people can't be the solution.

It's not the solution, it's an unfortunate side-effect as "fuzzy thoughts" mentioned.

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Paul: Mar 24, 2003, 10:50 AM
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Re: [Paul] How do you feel about being cheated by your government In reply to
I think it's a discussion with no end. You know my opinion.

Don't trust any information, challenge everything you hear.

I'm afraid of the world's future like the majority of any country exept the States. Many innocent people died, with this war the list of killed people will be longer. Unimpressed

I hope you will live a life in peace. Good night.
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Re: [Benderunit] How do you feel about being cheated by your government In reply to
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I'm afraid of the world's future like the majority of any country exept the States.

The irony in that statement being that the reason the US are disarming Saddam is for that very reason Tongue
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Re: [Benderunit] How do you feel about being cheated by your government In reply to
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Of course everyone wants to remove the regime but killing the regime's people can't be the solution...The UN is the place to discuss and solute problems in the world.

You've already estabolished that belief. What you haven't done is provided a peaceful revolution that can be accomplished in real world circumstances.

The UN thus far has been proven ineffective in regards to Iraq. I'm afraid you're going to have to be much more specific about how the UN would change things. But if that's all you can muster, then the legitimacy of this line of solution is nil.

Philip
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Limecat is not pleased.