Gossamer Forum
Home : General : Chit Chat :

Narrowing down...Dell?

(Page 1 of 2)
> >
Quote Reply
Narrowing down...Dell?
My quest for a new PC has begun timidly tonight and I think I may have found a good deal but was hoping for some comments from Dell users..(or anyone I guess)

I've configured the following at their site....

2GHZ Pentium IV
512MB RDRAM (quicker than SD?) ....expandable to 2GB
40GB Hard Drive (120GB is an option but I don't think I need it)
19" monitor or 17" flatscreen
64MB nVidia GeForce2 MMX video card (GeForce3 is an extra $320)

I already have an ethernet card, speakers and CD-RW

The cost of the above with XP is $1500

Does that sound ok and are Dell's reliable?

Thanks.

Last edited by:

PaulW: Dec 13, 2001, 1:20 PM
Quote Reply
Re: [PaulW] Narrowing down...Dell? In reply to
WOW. My opinion on that is its a good deal. I didnt even realise you could get 120GB hard drives! A 2Ghz Processor is easily enough to run almost everything. I have a P II 1.2Ghz, and that will run windows and about 20 other full applications with no problem (including Adobe Photoshop).

The RAM I am not sure about. I thought it was just SDRAM and normal RAM, obviously i was wrong Tongue

19" monitor or 17" flatscreen. I would personally go for the flatscreen, but that is cos my desk is so messy and my monitor takes up a lot of room Blush. Th only thing you need to watch is when designing sites with 17" monitors. Although being set to 1024 x 768 (or 800x600, whatever you use), it will look completly different on the smaller monitors. Just something i have learnt from the hard way with my 19" monitor Wink

Well, that was my opinion anyway! Hope it was of some use..lol

BTW: Where is this offer? I may be looking at a new computer soon, and i want to start shopping around.

Andy (mod)
andy@ultranerds.co.uk
Want to give me something back for my help? Please see my Amazon Wish List
GLinks ULTRA Package | GLinks ULTRA Package PRO
Links SQL Plugins | Website Design and SEO | UltraNerds | ULTRAGLobals Plugin | Pre-Made Template Sets | FREE GLinks Plugins!

Last edited by:

AndyNewby: Dec 13, 2001, 1:52 PM
Quote Reply
Re: [AndyNewby] Narrowing down...Dell? In reply to
Got a spare hour? Cool

Intel’s solution to the memory bottleneck has been Rambus Technologies’ RDRAM (Rambus DRAM). Rambus is an entirely new design in memory technology, centered around extremely high operating frequencies--RDRAM operates at an astonishing 400 MHz. To attain such high clock speeds, however, RDRAM features a slimmer bus than current SDRAM. As opposed to SDRAM’s 64-bit bus, RDRAM operates on a slim 16-bit bus. This incongruency in bus-width, however, means that an RDRAM-supporting chipset must be designed differently, and will not be compatible with an SDRAM chipset, without some form of translation such as Intel’s MTH. Further adding to RDRAM’s impressive numbers is its ability to transfer data on both the rising and falling edges of the clock cycle. Given all that, the theoretical maximum bandwidth provided by RDRAM is as follows:

(400MHz Operating Speed) x (16-bit Bus) x (2 Rising & Falling Edge) / (8 bits per byte) = 1600MB/s available bandwidth.

The numbers speak for themselves--RDRAM is capable of providing twice as much bandwidth as PC100 SDRAM, and 50% more than even PC133 SDRAM. Further adding to these impressive numbers is RDRAMs extremely high efficiency. Simply put, RDRAM is a very streamlined, effective memory architecture. Hyundai has estimated RDRAMs bus effectiveness to be as high as 85%, compared to SDRAM’s 75%. So, RDRAM is the perfect solution, right? Wrong. The primary, and most important concern with RDRAM at present is simply cost. Yields thus far have been less than impressive, which drives up the cost of RDRAM. As well, RDRAM is a proprietary technology, unlike SDRAM, which means that any third party memory manufacturer who wishes to produce RDRAM is forced to pay royalties to Rambus. Furthermore, due to RDRAM’s completely new design, production would require retooling of current memory manufacturers’ fab plants, an expensive process. Those factors, coupled with some early problems with RDRAM (read: i820 fiasco), have resulted in most major memory manufacturers being somewhat reluctant to hop onto the RDRAM bandwagon.

RDRAM--smaller 16-bit bus, while allowing for higher throughput speeds, forces a slight serialization of the commands. Because of this, the handful of applications out there that require very rapid access to small bits of data from different locations will actually suffer a slight decrease in performance when used with RDRAM. Fortunately, the majority of software in existence at the moment will benefit from the higher continuous speeds RDRAM brings to the table. But adding to the latency concerns is another of RDRAM’s ‘design flaws’. RDRAM operates at extremely high temperatures. So high, in fact, that the initial design for RDRAM called for active convection cooling (a fan on your RAM!). As this was not a viable option, a method of reducing heat production was required. The only viable way to lower production of heat, unfortunately, was to power down the modules--and that’s what had to be done. That in mind, only one chip on a RIMM will be actively sending data at one time. While one chip transmits, the others enter a ‘standby’ mode in which they run much cooler. When the active chip powers down, another powers back up, and begins transmitting. The heatsinks that are commonly seen on RIMMs are not actually heatsinks but heat dissipaters, which help to spread the heat from one ‘active’ module to the others in ‘standby’ mode. An unfortunate drawback to this design is that each module, upon leaving ‘standby’ mode, must go through a power-up cycle which can take upwards of 100ns! This imposes a slight latency penalty as well.

AMD and VIA, amongst others, have recognized the immediate shortcomings of RDRAM and agreed that, at present, it is not a viable alternative to current memory technology. Simply put, in their eyes the cost does not justify the benefits. But they also agree that something must be done, and for AMD and VIA that something is Double Data Rate SDRAM. Double Data Rate SDRAM is little more than a small evolution of current SDRAM technology. DDR SDRAM is capable, like RDRAM, of transferring data on both the rising and falling edges of the clock cycle. As such, its effective bandwidth is doubled. Consider standard 100 MHz DDR SDRAM:

(100 MHz Operating Speed) x (2x Rising & Falling) x (64-bit Bus) / (8 bits per byte) = 1600 MB/s available bandwidth.

As the numbers illustrate, DDR SDRAM, in conjunction with a 100 MHz FSB can provide bandwidth equivalent to that of RDRAM. Of course, like standard SDRAM, DDR SDRAM can be made to operate at a 133 MHz FSB as well.

(133 MHz Operating Speed) x (2x Rising & Falling) x (64-bit Bus) / (8 bits per byte) = 2133 MB/s available bandwidth.

When utilized with a 133 MHz FSB, DDR SDRAM can provide greater bandwidth than RDRAM. Thus, DDR SDRAM is able to achieve equal, or even higher, bandwidth levels while maintaining SDRAM’s lower latency.

In terms of production, DDR SDRAM seems to be the preferred option among memory manufacturers such as Micron, Hitachi, Hyundai, Samsung, Siemens and others. DDR yields have been acceptable thus far, and are already in production at moderate levels primarily due to demand for GeForce DDR-based graphics cards. Furthermore, DDR SDRAM requires very little retooling from standard SDRAM, so getting production levels up to an acceptable level would not incur high initial costs.

The only immediate drawback to DDR SDRAM is its poor memory bus efficiency. Early estimates dictate that DDR SDRAM’s bus effectiveness would be less than 65%, compared to 75% for standard SDRAM and 85% for RDRAM, which seriously cuts into the available bandwidth. Despite this, PC266/2100 DDR SDRAM is capable of the same effective bandwidth as PC800 RDRAM.

The deciding factor in terms of DDR’s success may prove to be not the technology itself, but support for it. While AMD and VIA are making ground, the fact remains that most people still use Intel systems, and most Intel systems operate on Intel chipsets. While its recent Apollo 133A and KX133 chipset releases have served to better its reputation, VIA has historically been remembered as a second-rate chipset manufacturer. Since DDR DIMMs will require a new chipset and new 184-pin memory slot, a large part of DDR’s success will depend on VIA’s ability to create and implement a competitive chipset--at an affordable price.

It is unlikely that the two different solutions presented can coexist for very long--one will likely become the standard. Some months ago, Hyundai released a comparison matrix, which does an excellent job of summarizing the concerns associated with each type of RAM.

Intel & Rambus’ RDRAM is a very promising technology. Its high clockspeed, extremely fast burst rates and incredible bus efficiency will make it very beneficial for most applications. As Rambus and Intel have insisted, the performance increases offered by RDRAM will likely increase as do the clockspeeds of the processors. All things said, though, RDRAM’s success is dependent more upon its cost to the consumer than on any other factor.

DDR SDRAM appears to be the more viable of the two solutions. DDR SDRAM won’t require a large investment on the part of manufacturers, and has thus far experienced decent yields. DDR simply seems, at present, to be the easier of the two options, while still offering performance on par with RDRAM. The success of DDR SDRAM, however, will be very dependent upon VIA’s ability to come through with competitive chipset releases.

In the meantime, try to stay on top of the issues, and don’t let advertising fool you. Expect to see quite a few confusing numbers floating around, such as PC133, PC266, PC600, PC700, PC800, PC1600, and PC2100. So when you see Intel advertising the new PC800 RDRAM memory, remember that, no, it’s not eight times as fast as PC100 memory. Likewise, when you see PC1600 and PC2100 DDR memory, remember that they’re not two to three times the speed of PC800 memory, regardless of what a salesperson tries to tell you. The plethora of new memory options that will present themselves in the next few months will be enough to overwhelm many potential buyers, so remember to sit back and do your homework before making that important purchase. The memory wars are just beginning, and the next few months promise to be very interesting indeed.


Quote Reply
Re: [PaulW] Narrowing down...Dell? In reply to
Erm, yeah, <looks like he knows what it means>, I gotta agree with them. They certainly know how to put it in laymans terms Tongue ....


Andy (mod)
andy@ultranerds.co.uk
Want to give me something back for my help? Please see my Amazon Wish List
GLinks ULTRA Package | GLinks ULTRA Package PRO
Links SQL Plugins | Website Design and SEO | UltraNerds | ULTRAGLobals Plugin | Pre-Made Template Sets | FREE GLinks Plugins!
Quote Reply
Re: [PaulW] Narrowing down...Dell? In reply to
how many pci / agp slots ?
what's the motherboard?

fellow teacher at school was complaining about those things?

so where ? and how much is shipping?

openoffice + gimp + sketch ... Smile
Quote Reply
Re: [PaulW] Narrowing down...Dell? In reply to
I'd say that's not a bad deal. Dell's are fairly reliable (Michael's a home town boy) and they have good do-it-yourself support. You can type in the "control number" or whatever they call it and bring up your computer (not one like it, but *your* computer) on their website and they'll have all of the updated driver packages, etc. for your system.

My only question is do you get the OEM XP CD's? Or does the OS come pre-installed on the hard drive?

HP has a good package that I was looking at this morning. It was around $900 (US) but the monitor was only like 15" viewable. It comes with NIC & CDRW & 40 gb HD, but only like 1mghz chip though.

Can't remember how RAM it had either. My philosophy is you can never have too much RAM, unless your running Netware 3x.

Quote Reply
Re: [QooQ] Narrowing down...Dell? In reply to
Intel® Pentium® 4 processor at 2GHz with NetBurst™micro-architecture
Intel® 850 chipset

Drive Bays

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Externally accessible: Two 5.25" bays for optical drives

Two 3.5" bays for a floppy drive and optional ZIP250

Internally accessible: One 3.5" bay for 1.6" high hard drives




I/O Ports and Connectors

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Externally accessible 4 USB ports - two at rear of chassis and 2tw at front of chassis

1 serial (DTE): 9-pin connector; 16550-compatible

1 parallel: 25-hole connector (bi-directional)

1 Video: 15-hole connector (on video card)

1 PS/2-style keyboard: 6-pin mini-DIN

1 PS/2-compatible mouse: 6-pin mini-DIN

Internally accessible Primary EIDE hard drive: 40-pin connector on PCI local bus

Floppy drive: 34-pin connector

CD drive audio interface: 4-pin connector

Remote Wakeup: 3-pin connector

Fan: 3-pin connector

Telephony: 4-pin connector




Slots

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

4 PCI slots

1 4X-AGP slot




Chassis

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dimension mini tower with cooling fans for power supply at rear of chassis

Dimensions: 437mm (height) x 203mm (width) x 444mm (depth)

Weight: 11.3 - 13.6kg weight , depending on options installed




Power

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dell Soft Power 200 watt

Input Voltage: 90 to 135V at 60 Hz; or 180 to 265 V at 50 Hz

Output Wattage: 200W maximum continuous

Output Voltage: 3.3V, 5V, and 12V 5VFP, -5V, -12V DC

Heat Dissipation: 180 BTU/hour (minimum value)

Power Management: ACPI 1.0 hard disk spin down and monitor control

Backup Battery: 3.0 V CR2032 lithium magnesium oxide coin cell

BIOS: Phoenix BIOS, 4Mbit Flash



Delivery : $75


Last edited by:

PaulW: Dec 13, 2001, 2:34 PM
Quote Reply
Re: [Watts] Narrowing down...Dell? In reply to
Patooey on HP!!! Yuck!

Bad hardware and ify tech support at that...

Go with Dell!
========================================
Buh Bye!

Cheers,
Me
Quote Reply
Re: [Watts] Narrowing down...Dell? In reply to
>>My only question is do you get the OEM XP CD's? Or does the OS come pre-installed on the hard drive?
<<

Im not sure, I already have an XP cd though.

I don't like the way it says "Configure your system" yet you can't really do that as you are forced to buy things you don't want.

I want to be able to remove the OS, the mouse, the speakers etc but you are always forced with a basic package and can then only add to it.
Quote Reply
Re: [PaulW] Narrowing down...Dell? In reply to
Paul,

I'm a happy Dell customer.

I'm not sure about the deal you're getting (sounds good though, a got a slightly less-good system 8 months ago for around $800 more), but I can tell you that Dell has been a joy to work with.

As far as prices, they seem to be very competitive with others, even with merchants who list on pricewatch.com...

My Dell desktop has been running virtually 24 hours a day for 10 months with no problems whatsoever.

I also recently purchased a tape drive from Dell (also competitvely priced) and just two weeks ago purchased a low end desktop for my in-laws for a Christmas present.

Everything has shipped on time.

And, when I had to call customer service because of a bad tape, I was speaking to someone live within seconds. I got my new tape with no hassles within a couple days via fedex.

Remember though, I'm in the States and they may have a different division for your market...

One thing I'd suggest is comparing the deals they have in the Home/Home Office store to the Small Business store... sometimes they have different specials.

Hope that was helpful.

Smile

--
Matt G
Quote Reply
Re: [PaulW] Narrowing down...Dell? In reply to
RDRAM is not worth getting. Reasons:
1) ridiculously expensive (more than twice the price of SDRAM, used to be more than twice the price of DDR till DDR prices went up a bit)
2) probably soon to be obsolete technology (out with RDRAM, in with DDR)

What happened to just upgrading your current computer?
Lets see...
$200 Athlon XP 1900+
$30 A good heatsink/fan (or just put the $30 into getting a retail cpu)
$150 Soyo K7V Dragon+ (nice mobo with onboard LAN, 5.1 audio, and RAID)
$130 2x Crucial 256MB PC2100 DDR (or pay $30 more for a single 512MB)
$90 Western Digital 40GB 7200RPM ATA100
$230 LG Flatron 795FT+ 17" flatscreen CRT (I've got this monitor, very nice)
$70 Abit GeForce2 MX400 64MB
$100 A nice case with a good power supply
=========
$1150, add on shipping, would be about $1250 (over estimate, but ppl do rip you on shipping).
(prices should be average prices, not the lowest - lowest prices are probably $10-20 less)

So for $250, you get better hardware, but then you'd have to build it yourself, and lose the support (if you're comfortable with that).

Dell should be pretty reliable. If I were to get a brand name computer, I'd probably go Dell.


Adrian
Quote Reply
Re: [Matt Glaspie] Narrowing down...Dell? In reply to
Tthat sounds pretty cool.

I did only look at the Home section so i may just have a look at the Small Business section.

Thanks.
Quote Reply
Re: [brewt] Narrowing down...Dell? In reply to
Adrian,

where ???

openoffice + gimp + sketch ... Smile
Quote Reply
Re: [brewt] Narrowing down...Dell? In reply to
Hey,

Im pretty confident building the system as long as I don't need to do any soldering etc....would I need to do anything like that?

Also where can I find the hardware you mentioned?

Thanks.
Quote Reply
Re: [QooQ] Narrowing down...Dell? In reply to
Where? I was just looking at average prices on various places on pricewatch.

here's some prices locally (in Canadian dollars this time)...
$320 Athlon XP 1800+ (oops, that wasn't right, it's $415 for a 1900+)
$30 A good heatsink/fan (or just put the $30 into getting a retail cpu)
$270 Soyo K7V Dragon+ (nice mobo with onboard LAN, 5.1 audio, and RAID)
$200 2x Crucial 256MB PC2100 DDR
$140 Western Digital 40GB 7200RPM ATA100
$370 LG Flatron 795FT+ 17" flatscreen CRT (I've got this monitor, very nice)
$150 Visiontek GeForce2 MX400 64MB
$130 Landmark 18" Aluminum case
=========
$1610 + tax (a ripoff 14%!) = $1835
which would be about $1200 USD

not bad...


Adrian

Last edited by:

brewt: Dec 13, 2001, 3:39 PM
Quote Reply
Re: [PaulW] Narrowing down...Dell? In reply to
soldering? sure. you get a couple ziploc baggies of components like capacitors, some random chips, and a spool of soldering wire. Of course, you will need to know how to read those schematics and know all about how watts = voltage x aperage and ohms law and what not. Tongue

Last edited by:

ThatPerson1024: Dec 13, 2001, 3:19 PM
Quote Reply
Re: [PaulW] Narrowing down...Dell? In reply to
No, building computers doesn't involve soldering Smile. Thing is you live in England, so I wouldn't have a clue where you could get parts from. Vancouver has quite a lot of computer stores so pricing is pretty competitive. Those prices were off pricewatch (ie. places mainly selling to people in the US). Checkout local stores and compare prices with what's on pricewatch, and you'll see if they're charging outrageous prices or not.

I don't know about you, but part of the fun of getting a computer to me, is putting it together (and later, overclocking it Tongue).


Adrian
Quote Reply
Re: [Heckler] Narrowing down...Dell? In reply to
Quote:
Patooey on HP!!! Yuck!

Ha, ha - tell us how you really feel. LOL. I personally don't go for package deals myself.

BTW, does the name "Iron Guts" have anything to do with Heckler? Just curious...
Quote Reply
Re: [brewt] Narrowing down...Dell? In reply to
Yeah Ive thought about overclocking...I read a long article on it the other day about how to do it with an Athlon XP 1900+

Sounded tricky.


Quote Reply
Re: [brewt] Narrowing down...Dell? In reply to
And you can knock another $100 of that if you go with an XP1800 or XP1700, you won't notice the difference (it's like 1.553 ghz versus 1.467 or something tiny like that). Always get a step down from leading edge. =)

Cheers,

Alex
--
Gossamer Threads Inc.
Quote Reply
Re: [Alex] Narrowing down...Dell? In reply to
I'd like a 2GHZ if poss :)
Quote Reply
Re: [PaulW] Narrowing down...Dell? In reply to
Quote:
Yeah Ive thought about overclocking...I read a long article on it the other day about how to do it with an Athlon XP 1900+

Sounded tricky.
It is... Smile


Adrian

Last edited by:

brewt: Dec 13, 2001, 3:29 PM
Quote Reply
Re: [brewt] Narrowing down...Dell? In reply to
Hey Adrian If I sent you the cash (thinking of my teacher friend) would you ship ?

ziplock baggies -- wahhohoho that's so funny!

Paul ??? you've never built a box? me, the great mac fanatic ... has finally been somewhere you haven't ??? Crazy

ummm .... folks ... one thing "power supply" .... Japan is on a 100 volt system, the states 110 .... what was it in Europe ??? Do you still use those funny looking round staple looking plugs ??? I remember seeming at my grandma's house in Germany!!!

openoffice + gimp + sketch ... Smile
Quote Reply
Re: [PaulW] Narrowing down...Dell? In reply to
It's not all about the MHz anymore. A XP 1900+ outperforms a P4 2GHz in most things nowadays.


Adrian
Quote Reply
Re: [ThatPerson1024] Narrowing down...Dell? In reply to
sorry.. just kidding. all you have to do is fit the mobo in the case, lock in the cpu and heatsink, screw on the fan, pop out the slots for the pci boards and drives, screw in pci's and drives, lock in ram, plug the power wire into the mobo, plug ribbon cable and power wires into the drives, connect other various wires for lights and switches and you should be set except for connecting external peripherals. oh.. and make sure you ground yourself and plug all wires in properly or you'll blow something the first time you turn it on.

--Philip
Links 2.0 moderator
> >