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Gossamer Threads Development Survey

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Gossamer Threads Development Survey
Hello everyone,

(This post is a follow-up to the Gossamer Threads Development post in the Announcements forum. If you have not already done so, please read that post first.)

To ensure that the development process of Gossamer Threads products meets your specific needs as much as possible, we encourage you - our users, clients, and customers - to respond to the following short survey regarding the direction the Gossamer Threads product development team should take for future product development. Feel free to be as brief or verbose as you like in responding.


  1. What do you think of the XHTML+CSS design described in the announcement? Do you think this is a good or poor move, and do you have any suggestions, alternatives, or other ideas that we might consider?

  2. How important is backwards compatibility with older browsers to you? When we say compatibility, we are talking about extremely old browser versions - that is, Netscape 4 and IE 4 - which already are incapable of displaying much of what is on the internet successfully.

  3. Are you generally opposed to or in favour of using javascript to add functionality? Up to now, we've taken the policy of using javascript to augment existing capabilities or provide convenience features, with some notable exceptions such as the advanced editor in Gossamer Forum and Gossamer Mail. In the new versions however, we are planning some features that absolutely require javascript in order to work rather than to simply augment existing capabilities.

    To give a specific example, one of the features we have already added in the v3 development code is a javascript-based spellcheck feature allowing you to correct your spelling by clicking on misspelled words, then clicking on a correction to replace it with. In this case, how acceptable would you consider having the spellcheck support only available to users with javascript enabled in their browsers? We will never make core features (e.g. sending e-mail, reading posts, adding links, etc.) require javascript, but making secondary features such as this that rely on javascript support makes it much easier for us to quickly add features, and often allows those features to work better for the end-user.

    Not having to support both javascript and non-javascript versions will free up time otherwise spent coding and maintaining both versions which will allow us to spend more of it working on new features for our programs. Additionally, it will keep the templates and the code cleaner without extra 'duplicate' code.

  4. What suggestions do you have, if any, for the product manuals? Do you find the current format (PDF) useful, or would you consider that we make the manual available in another format, such as MS Word (.doc) or perhaps even broken down into multiple HTML pages?

  5. Have you had any problems with the installation of our products? How can we improve the installation process? Would an installation tutorial be useful?

  6. We're considering adding a "tutorials" section to the product pages of our website to cover various common tasks associated with administering our products comprising items such as installation (question 5), a Getting Started Guide (e.g. for Gossamer Forum, how to create a Category and Forum), making simple template modifications, etc. Do you feel this addition would be useful, and if so, are there any specific areas in addition to the above that you would like to see?

  7. Are there any specific weak spots in our programs currently that you would like to see addressed, with respect to how the overall programs work? We do not refer here to individual product feature requests for this question - but rather areas that affect all of our programs, such as installing, modifying templates, upgrading, etc.




Any other comments and suggestions you care to offer regarding the v3 development would be greatly appreciated. We obviously can't make any promises to include every feature/suggestion, but we will seriously consider and try to respond to each one in a timely fashion.

Gossamer Threads Development Team
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Re: [GT Dev Team] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
Hi,

the changes you're going to make seem to be very nice.

As I've read, your going to implement an auto-update feature for LSQL. I think you should make it optional, so an admin can switch the auto-update-function of the software on or off.
Also a list of auto-updated files should always be available, so if someone has made e.g. hardcoded mods, he/she gets to know, that his modified file was overwritten by a new update and is informed that he has to do the mod again.

The (LSQL/Forum) email/newsletter-functionallity should be developed:
A possibility of using eMail-attachments would be very nice.
Also some kind of newsletter/mail-bounce-handling would be very great!
At last the newsletter-subscription-functionallity should use an double-opt-in.


LSQL-Categories:
It would be very nice, if it'll be possible, if the admin could exclude categories from link-submitting.



Cheers,
Manuel

Regards,
Manu

Shopping Portal Shop-Netz.de® | Partnerprogramme | Flugreisen & Billigflüge | KESTERMEDIA e.K. | European Affiliate Marketing Forum.

Last edited by:

ManuGermany: Nov 15, 2004, 3:41 AM
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Re: [ManuGermany] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
Flagging categories as visible or not, should be implemented in LSQL...


What about existing plugins? Will they keep on working in the 2005 versions?

Last edited by:

nt6: Nov 15, 2004, 4:21 AM
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Re: [GT Dev Team] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
CSS - I see this one as self-evident. It's a good idea.

Javascript - tough one, but all things considered I think it adds more than it disrupts, so to use javascript extensively is a good idea. This would have been different a few years ago. It will also be different a few years from now (ie javascript issues probably won't be a concern, in the same way other Web technologies are now standard), so I think that is a good indication to forge ahead with javascript features (even for useful and important features like the spell check you mentioned).

What are the statistics for Internet users with or without javascript?

Formats for manuals - I'd say use all three, PDF, HTML and MS Word. I don't want to be presumptious, but I wouldn't have thought the overheads in time would have been that bad having to update all three. Personally, I rarely use PDF, preferring HTML for my online software. I only tend to use doc or txt files when I'm installing software on my home machine. A short txt file explaining the basics after I've unarced Gossamer Mail is sufficient for me, with the main documentation online.

Installation - my feeling has been to wait for a while after a product is released. I would always read numerous bug reports in software updates. It always seemed a bug fix for the bug fix was released, so it made sense to wait before installing an update.

The templates have always been a major gripe for me. In a couple of the forums for example, I found a tendency for some users to be defensive about the software when a suggestion to improve the templates was made. I can see what might motivate them, but rather than supporting the product, I think this is counter-productive in the long run. I've always thought the look and feel of GMail and GForum (the two pieces of software I use) would benefit enormously from a complete makeover. It needs to hold its own against the likes of Yahoo mail, in terms of professional look, graphic design and attention to detail. I don't think it helps the software for users to follow up these comments by nit picking the design of the competition, or pointing out the templates can be modified by hand to make them look how you want. These comments defend the status quo, but don't acknowledge that the design can be vastly improved. Personally, I think designing the templates to work in popular and widely used software like Dreamweaver is a must. This is entirely possible, no matter how complex and convoluted the templates, as I do it myself with scripts that make dynamically created content.

Jason
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Re: [GT Dev Team] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
CSS - the only thing that worries me is table elements.

CSS is great for font stuff, colors, and things like that, but for tables it's still pretty much cutting edge. I'm not sure if you intend to use css for tables, but I thought I'd throw this in.

Cheers Smile

------------------------------------------
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Re: [GT Dev Team] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
1) I've wanted to do this with my GMail install for some time now. I think this is definitely the way to go for the future.

2) Not very. I think 5 and up would be more than adequate.

3) I've never liked using JavaScript in any of my applications but there are times when you just need to. I think as long as you can keep it out of core features like you mentioned it would work for me. I do like the added functionality in your example and I think I could learn to be more open minded about it. Are you noticing people turning of JS for security reasons at all?

4) I like PDF the best myself. I would, however, like to see the manual as HTML in the application as well. But what would that do to the download size of the app?

5) Not personally. But I think more info on file permissions and other common problems (images in the cgi-bin) would help alleviate some support time on your end though.

6) Yep, see #5. This would be a good area to cover a lot of your common support problems that can really be taken care of by the end user doing a little homework. A FAQ in addition to tutorials would be nice.

7) With the Plug-in system (which I really enjoy) such a big part of your applications I would like to see better, more up to date, POD in your modules. I would also like to see a section on your website for the HTML versions of the POD. It would also be nice to see some of your core modules released on CPAN. I think GT::Template is just awesome but I can't use it as often as I would like :) And I just can't find anything close to GT::SQL.

In lieu of releasing your GT::* modules to CPAN would you be open to some sort of a developers license?

Thanks,
Charlie
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Re: [ManuGermany] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
In Reply To:
Hi,

the changes you're going to make seem to be very nice.

As I've read, your going to implement an auto-update feature for LSQL. I think you should make it optional, so an admin can switch the auto-update-function of the software on or off.

We won't (currently) make this automatically download and install updates. Our current thinking is more along the lines of having the admin panel check for and list updates on the "Home" page (though you'll be able to disable this check), with a separate "Updates" page for actually installing them.

In Reply To:
Also a list of auto-updated files should always be available, so if someone has made e.g. hardcoded mods, he/she gets to know, that his modified file was overwritten by a new update and is informed that he has to do the mod again.

We'll do that for individual file updates (i.e. Official Bug Fixes), but for a full release (e.g. Gossamer Links 3.0.1 from 3.0.0) it won't be available.

In Reply To:
The (LSQL/Forum) email/newsletter-functionallity should be developed:
A possibility of using eMail-attachments would be very nice.
Also some kind of newsletter/mail-bounce-handling would be very great!
At last the newsletter-subscription-functionallity should use an double-opt-in.

There are some e-mail enhancements due, but I don't think we'll be able to completely overhaul the newsletter e-mail handling, at least not for the initial 3.0 release.

In Reply To:
LSQL-Categories:
It would be very nice, if it'll be possible, if the admin could exclude categories from link-submitting.

It shouldn't be difficult to add; I'll add it to the list. Perhaps a three-way option: "Allow", "Deny", "Inherit", where "Inherit" is the default and pulls the value from the parent category. That said, I'll be creating a forum later today specifically devoted to new product features - I'd prefer to keep this thread more generalized to product-wide features.

In Reply To:
Cheers,
Manuel

Thanks for the feedback!


For the sake of clarity, the "GT Dev Team" user account consists of the core personnel Jason Rhinelander, Adrian Yee and Jack Ong. It was created so we could receive notification collectively.

Gossamer Threads Development Team
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Re: [nt6] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
In Reply To:
Flagging categories as visible or not, should be implemented in LSQL...

This shouldn't be difficult to do for v3. Would you want non-visible categories to still be accessible? That is, should an invisible category still be available - just not linked anywhere?

In Reply To:
What about existing plugins? Will they keep on working in the 2005 versions?

Yes, plugins and current (i.e. v2) templates will continue to work with v3 products. However, there may be some cases where we have to remove, replace, or change plugin hooks - if this happens, we'll clearly explain what has changed and what needs to be done for the new system.

Gossamer Threads Development Team
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Re: [GT Dev Team] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
It would be great to have categories that would still be accessible or not depending on their content.

Thank you for considerring this.
Quote Reply
Re: [wickedmoon] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
In Reply To:
CSS - I see this one as self-evident. It's a good idea.

That's pretty much our feeling - our main concern is whether it will pose difficulties for people who don't know much about HTML or CSS. Undoubtedly it will be more difficult for some people, but hopefully we'll have a system that looks better overall and in the end is easier to make significant changes to.

In Reply To:
What are the statistics for Internet users with or without javascript?

It's hard to say - I expect that 99.9% of browsers support Javascript, but the question remains as to how many are paranoid enough to turn Javascript off. There are, however, sites appearing now that absolutely and completely depend on Javascript - Google Mail being a recent, popular example.

In Reply To:
Formats for manuals - I'd say use all three, PDF, HTML and MS Word. I don't want to be presumptious, but I wouldn't have thought the overheads in time would have been that bad having to update all three.

It isn't, but if no one finds the PDF format useful (as opposed to a MS Word .doc, which is how we write it), we can simply distribute the .doc file instead.

In Reply To:
Personally, I rarely use PDF, preferring HTML for my online software. I only tend to use doc or txt files when I'm installing software on my home machine. A short txt file explaining the basics after I've unarced Gossamer Mail is sufficient for me, with the main documentation online.

This falls into the Tutorials I mentioned - the PDF vs. DOC vs. HTML applies just to the main product manuals, which are currently only distributed as PDF's.

In Reply To:
Installation - my feeling has been to wait for a while after a product is released. I would always read numerous bug reports in software updates. It always seemed a bug fix for the bug fix was released, so it made sense to wait before installing an update.

Hopefully Gossamer Update will solve this problem.

In Reply To:
Personally, I think designing the templates to work in popular and widely used software like Dreamweaver is a must. This is entirely possible, no matter how complex and convoluted the templates, as I do it myself with scripts that make dynamically created content.

I'm not certainly how we could go about making them Dreamweaver-safe - generally most gui editors seem to have problems handling something like:

<input type="radio" name="blah" value="1"<%if checked%> checked<%endif%>>

Some try to correct this (thereby breaking it), others don't display it properly at all.

Gossamer Threads Development Team
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Re: [GT Dev Team] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
In Reply To:
This falls into the Tutorials I mentioned - the PDF vs. DOC vs. HTML applies just to the main product manuals, which are currently only distributed as PDF's.[/quote]
Personally I would just like an online version of the docs on the GT website. It would be easy to find and easy to reference if helping people on the forum.
Quote Reply
Re: [DogTags] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
In Reply To:
CSS - the only thing that worries me is table elements.

CSS is great for font stuff, colors, and things like that, but for tables it's still pretty much cutting edge. I'm not sure if you intend to use css for tables, but I thought I'd throw this in.

We're actually aiming for a table-less design, except in cases where there actually is tabular data. Using tables for positioning is a bad practise in a strict XHTML+CSS design, and ends up constricting the design to a particular layout. Using div's (or other block elements) allows for greater flexibility in the design of the page. Most of the use of tables, currently, is specifically for layout, but nearly all of that can be accomplished with CSS.

As an example of how much can be done with CSS, I recommend you take a look at www.csszengarden.com - all the different designs on this page (there are well over a hundred, and it is growing all the time) use exactly the same HTML, except for the stylesheet included. Different stylesheets can completely change the look - from images, to positioning of elements (i.e. some have the "Choose a design" links on the right, some on the left, some oriented left-to-right above or below the other content), to possible omissions of certain parts of the data, to fonts and colours - this is what we are hoping will be possible with a proper XHTML/CSS design.

Gossamer Threads Development Team
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Re: [Chaz] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
In Reply To:
3) I've never liked using JavaScript in any of my applications but there are times when you just need to. I think as long as you can keep it out of core features like you mentioned it would work for me. I do like the added functionality in your example and I think I could learn to be more open minded about it. Are you noticing people turning of JS for security reasons at all?

Not really, though there have been a few complaints about javascript from time to time. I think the recent requirement and complete dependence on javascript by Google Mail does something towards validating javascript being enabled. Of course, we don't want to go so far as to say "No javascript = doesn't work" - but it is becoming more and more common on pages.

In Reply To:
4) I like PDF the best myself. I would, however, like to see the manual as HTML in the application as well. But what would that do to the download size of the app?

If it significantly affects the download size we would probably put it on our site, and just link to it from the download area.

In Reply To:
5) Not personally. But I think more info on file permissions and other common problems (images in the cgi-bin) would help alleviate some support time on your end though.

6) Yep, see #5. This would be a good area to cover a lot of your common support problems that can really be taken care of by the end user doing a little homework. A FAQ in addition to tutorials would be nice.

We'll most likely set up a Frequently Asked Questions section of the product pages that deals with these sorts of situations.

In Reply To:
7) With the Plug-in system (which I really enjoy) such a big part of your applications I would like to see better, more up to date, POD in your modules. I would also like to see a section on your website for the HTML versions of the POD. It would also be nice to see some of your core modules released on CPAN. I think GT::Template is just awesome but I can't use it as often as I would like :) And I just can't find anything close to GT::SQL.

We don't have any plan to do this at the current time. One of the problems is that doing so would put us under a certain amount of pressure to support our modules to people other than our clients.

In Reply To:
In lieu of releasing your GT::* modules to CPAN would you be open to some sort of a developers license?

This is something that we've discussed before and - if there is suitable interest - is something we are certainly willing to consider, but not until after the v3 release.

Gossamer Threads Development Team
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Re: [GT Dev Team] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
In Reply To:
We don't have any plan to do this at the current time. One of the problems is that doing so would put us under a certain amount of pressure to support our modules to people other than our clients.

I can certainly understand your point there. On the other hand, you would have the Perl community at large to help with that in the way of patches and tests. Just another way to look at it. Either way I do think the POD needs a bit of help in places. Don't get me wrong, I'm grateful for what's there, but I've found a few things missing or incomplete and/or outdated or incorrect.

In Reply To:
This is something that we've discussed before and - if there is suitable interest - is something we are certainly willing to consider, but not until after the v3 release.

I'd definitely be interested. I'll check back after the V3 dust settles.

Thanks,
Charlie
Quote Reply
Re: [GT Dev Team] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
In general, any change which makes services dependent on it more marketable (and aesthetics as perceived by the end user is definitely a part of it) is a welcome change. Even if that means tougher job on modification of templates etc it's welcome. My suggestions would however be:
  • Gossamer Community support Gossamer Applications across different domains (without removing the URL based sessions in Gossamer Mail as that would break wap support).
  • This has been touched earlier, but a centralized GT libs location with installer configured to handle the same accordingly during upogrades (for multiple GT Products license holders).
  • Auto-updates off GT Server as an _OPTION_ would be fine.
  • Documentation/Tutorials on GT server would be fine.
  • A KB/FAQ (Product Wise) drawn from This forum. I remeber modernbill building FAQ from their forum so that repeatedly same questions are not asked (and answered) over and over again.


Perhaps more when the product forums for 2005 version(s) are launched individually.

Also, if allowed to ask, when is the 2005 version(s) in 2005 expected to be released? If not too long, i would prefer to keep upgrades on hold for the time being.

Thanks
HyTC

Thanks
HyTC
==================================
Mail Me If Contacting Privately Is That Necessary.
==================================

Last edited by:

HyperTherm: Nov 15, 2004, 7:09 PM
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Re: [GT Dev Team] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to

  1. What do you think of the XHTML+CSS design described in the announcement? Do you think this is a good or poor move, and do you have any suggestions, alternatives, or other ideas that we might consider?

  2. Yes, using CSS is a good idea, until there is NO CSS and HTML codes hardcoded into the GT app codes.
    GT should only use CSS as long the NS4+ and IE4+ compatibility is maintained!!! It should be kept backward compatible, and readable with 4.x browsers.
    Also be careful with using CSS in tables (+1 vote for worries of DogTags).


  3. How important is backwards compatibility with older browsers to you? When we say compatibility, we are talking about extremely old browser versions - that is, Netscape 4 and IE 4 - which already are incapable of displaying much of what is on the internet successfully.

  4. Very important to keep NS4.x, NS6.x , IE4.x, IE5.x, IE 6.x, Mozilla 1.x backward compatibility!
    Backward compatibility should be done to degrade design correctly, and still to keep readable all the texts.
    I see day by day such websites, which are working on IE, but when you look with your favourite browser, it is not viewable or doesn't display correctly. I don't want such problems, therefor my compatibility policy is to keep compatibility with 4.x browsers.


  5. Are you generally opposed to or in favour of using javascript to add functionality? Up to now, we've taken the policy of using javascript to augment existing capabilities or provide convenience features, with some notable exceptions such as the advanced editor in Gossamer Forum and Gossamer Mail. In the new versions however, we are planning some features that absolutely require javascript in order to work rather than to simply augment existing capabilities.
    ...
    Not having to support both javascript and non-javascript versions will free up time otherwise spent coding and maintaining both versions which will allow us to spend more of it working on new features for our programs. Additionally, it will keep the templates and the code cleaner without extra 'duplicate' code.

    I never liked to have javascript in a feature, because when javascript was turned off, the service was unusable.
    Imagine a link, button, menu, which is javascript based, and doesn't degrade correctly. It is a crap.
    If javascript is degraded well, so is kept working even if javascript is turned off, then yes, I support to have javascript used.
    My javascript policy is to use javascript for secondary features to add more interactivity for the service, and should degrade well, without destructing the design and readability.
    You can not avoid to support both javascript and non-javascript versions, because to degrade correctly you need both!



  6. What suggestions do you have, if any, for the product manuals? Do you find the current format (PDF) useful, or would you consider that we make the manual available in another format, such as MS Word (.doc) or perhaps even broken down into multiple HTML pages?
    PDF manuals are fine. But missing documentations should be created for developers guide, and modules POD. You know there are some modules, where there are a lot undocumented modules, like GT::SQL::Display::HTML , etc...
    HTML format would be not bad, since a HTML site can be converted finely into a PDF file.
    Additionally, a FAQ would be nice. (+1 vote for idea of Chaz)



  7. Have you had any problems with the installation of our products? How can we improve the installation process? Would an installation tutorial be useful?
    I had no problems. But automatic upgrades, bugfixes would be really fine. Just press "Check version" to check if there are any updates. Then "Update selected package" will install the selected updates. Note: that install order of different update packages may be important.



  8. We're considering adding a "tutorials" section to the product pages of our website to cover various common tasks associated with administering our products comprising items such as installation (question 5), a Getting Started Guide (e.g. for Gossamer Forum, how to create a Category and Forum), making simple template modifications, etc. Do you feel this addition would be useful, and if so, are there any specific areas in addition to the above that you would like to see?
    Yes, tutorials section would be useful. That would make easier to start new GT users installing, customizing, improving GT applications.



  9. Are there any specific weak spots in our programs currently that you would like to see addressed, with respect to how the overall programs work? We do not refer here to individual product feature requests for this question - but rather areas that affect all of our programs, such as installing, modifying templates, upgrading, etc.
    Yes. There are some long waited features listed here:

    • !!! Common API level above GT apps - currently there is no common application API between GT apps (I mean not the GT lib, but the application library, like Links, Comm, etc...).

    • GT application cross-access integration - a new module (with an easy API) into GT module collection, to be able to cross-access all GT application tables, main config files, plugin config files, hooks, modules, plugins.
      The Module could be named GT::Integrate or GT::Apps, with submodules, like GT::Integrate::LinksSQL, GT::Integrate::GForum, etc...

    • !!! Admin login separate script - Admin login should be moved to a separate script, which can be renamed for security reasons

    • !!! Support multiple language in same template set!!! (without the need to open new template for each language)

    • !!! Support to 1 common GT module directory for all apps

    • !!! Support to 1 common template module directory for all GT apps

    • !!! Support dynamic_preserve feature in all GT apps

    • !!! Support for caching of output html feature (small timeframe and same input variable content)

    • !!! URL generating - Support to make URL parameter names changeable. Currently URL parameter names are hardcoded in GT apps!!!

    • !!! Template parsing of ConfigData.pm values! - Support to make possible to use a config variable within another config variable!!! Example: $CFG->{"server_URL"} = "http://www.site.com"; $CFG->{"db_cgi_url"} = "<%$CFG::server_URL%>/cgi-bin/Lsql";

    • !!! Support LSQL a section based template system, with reusable, changeable sections, inheritable into subcategories. This means to inherit template elements, sections, local & global variables into subcategories - This would be excellent GT template feature improvement. Currently only one full template can be inherited and overrided in the subcategories (Category_Template). But if I want to change the design, I need to change all templates, depending which part of template is changed. I have to include even <head> or <html> tags redundantly, when these should be used once when design is done, then should be automatically reused where needed. Therefore the main category page should provide a skeleton (section) of the design, then subskeletons (subsections) recursively, which should be inherited to subcategories. I will open a new thread for this later, then will explain how this section based template system should work in LSQL.

    • ! Support WAP/WML? - Support WAP/WML in all GT apps

    • ! Support FastCGI - long waited feature, which would make possible additional crossOS permanent environment beside mod_perl. SpeedyCGI is not crossOS solution, available on Linux only.

    • Support LSQL to have virtual category links to other category (shortcut) - So you can create an Electronics/Computers/Accessories category, which is "virtually linked" to Computers/Accessories. So opening page Electronics/Computers/Accessories will display same links like in Computers/Accessories, but with different template design if needed.

    • Support LSQL to hide categories (+1 vote for idea of nt6)

    • Support LSQL to set to exclude categories from link-submitting (+1 vote for idea of ManuGermany)

    • Support to handle mail-bounce-handling (+1 vote for idea of ManuGermany)

    • Support to have the GT plugin developers able to check if they are currently on admin interface, or on public user interface. There is MISSING a global variable, which is set if we are printing to admin interface or to public page.

    • CPAN release of at least GT::Template module. CPAN release of full GT lib would be also a good idea, but since you may have some business interests not releasing publicly, I can just mention that this would be fine.
      But think about, that this would greately advertise the www.gossamer-threads.com website and products...
      And since the products are really fine, that would mean a lot more buyers. (+1 vote for idea of Chaz)


Waiting GT staff comments!

Best regards,
Webmaster33


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Quote Reply
Re: [GT Dev Team] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
First of all, the automated patching should be able to be disabled on every level. I am not a fan of automated patching and would no use it.

Checking for updates is also a touchy one. I personally don't care but several of my clients only agreed to purchasing GT products when assured there was no "phoning home" for privacy reasons/paranoia.


Quote:
What do you think of the XHTML+CSS design described in the announcement? Do you think this is a good or poor move, and do you have any suggestions, alternatives, or other ideas that we might consider?


I personally don't care as I don't (and won't) use any default templates.

But if this means a bunch of CSS will then be controlled by the software I wouldn't like that. Me, I like the amazing template syntax and I'll handle the markup and style from there.

Quote:

How important is backwards compatibility with older browsers to you? When we say compatibility, we are talking about extremely old browser versions - that is, Netscape 4 and IE 4 - which already are incapable of displaying much of what is on the internet successfully.


Ideally designs can degrade gracefully. For example, I have some bleeding edge CSS designs that can still be viewed on old browsers, they just look plain (like professor's pages, with header tags and text) and all a logical order.

But either way, I'm fine with CSS.

Quote:

Are you generally opposed to or in favour of using javascript to add functionality? Up to now, we've taken the policy of using javascript to augment existing capabilities or provide convenience features, with some notable exceptions such as the advanced editor in Gossamer Forum and Gossamer Mail. In the new versions however, we are planning some features that absolutely require javascript in order to work rather than to simply augment existing capabilities.


Depends on the features. I keep JavaScript to a minumum, and hope that such useability and compatibility principles will be taken into consideration. Any browser specific code would be a bane, IMO.

Quote:
What suggestions do you have, if any, for the product manuals? Do you find the current format (PDF) useful, or would you consider that we make the manual available in another format, such as MS Word (.doc) or perhaps even broken down into multiple HTML pages?


I prefer multiple html pages. But this is a very low priority for me.

Quote:
Are there any specific weak spots in our programs currently that you would like to see addressed, with respect to how the overall programs work? We do not refer here to individual product feature requests for this question - but rather areas that affect all of our programs, such as installing, modifying templates, upgrading, etc


Scalability. Gossamer does pretty well, but what's preventing me from using the product on some of my sites is lacking scalability (e.g. distributed files over multiple servers).

Data integrity. The file uploads, settings and database could really use a powerful backup/restore function with incremental and remote backups.

I'll also note that the license changes are unwelcome here, I chose Links SQL for the basis of my development with many clients, and would prefer a higher price to a limited license.

Or maybe one benefit of people who send a lot of business your way with multiple liscenses and many referrals would be lifetime licenses.

cdkrg

Able2Know :: Ajooja Directory
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Re: [GT Dev Team] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
One for LSQL:

Allow users to edit their information, as well as request a new validation key (of they missed the email).

cdkrg

Able2Know :: Ajooja Directory
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Re: [GT Dev Team] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
In Reply To:
I'm not certainly how we could go about making them Dreamweaver-safe - generally most gui editors seem to have problems handling something like:

<input type="radio" name="blah" value="1"<%if checked%> checked<%endif%>>

Some try to correct this (thereby breaking it), others don't display it properly at all.

Because of the markup and the nature of piecing together separate templates, you'll always get invalid tags in a HTML editor. Firstly, at least in Dreamweaver, you can turn rewriting off, so code doesn't break. Secondly, I don't believe a few tags reported as invalid is an issue. The problem is the essential structure of the templates. I would often load a template into Dreamweaver and nothing much at all would display. Tables were sometimes invisible. I think most of these structural issues could be resolved if some consideration were given to widely used HTML editors like DW. My copy of GMail is still described on your site as being extensively modified, but I gave up doing that because the templates were so frustrating to work with. I was forced to edit the HTML by hand, which I am very experienced with, but I found creating the design effects I wanted next to impossible, and took to making very basic alterations instead.

Like I say, I have worked with scripts that create dynamic content. The biggest project was ecard software I designed that was pieced together in the same way as Gossamer products, ie custom tags and hundreds of templates pieced together for the final output. Displaying a template was never a problem and I used Dreamweaver exclusively. Even tables that begin in one template and end in another are not really a problem. I was able to visualise and edit template layouts in the same way as I would see them online, in the finished product. In this way it was easy to rip apart everything and redesign from scratch, to concentrate on the important aspects of graphic design, colour combinations etc, rather than being distracted by and limited to using hand coded HTML.

Jason
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Re: [GT Dev Team] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
The zengarden example is as you say in an impressive set of examples of what can be done with CSS, but I agree with DogTags and webmaster33 that CSS is not quite capable yet of covering various table type layouts and also forms and not too easy to manage when they get long. I've also found that dynamically generated content when the text varies in length and these items are placed one after each other which means different hights are pretty tricky to deal with.

This said CSS is not presently an end all solution. At the moment I feel it is a transitional phase since it provides a great amount of power for web page design but not all browsers are compatible and often tweaks are required even between compatible browsers. If the question is "Is it worth investing in CSS?" I personally am. With the venue of FireFox I think Microsoft will be less inclined to reject the W3C's standards. Not that FireFox is sure to win any battles but I think it will have an impact and Microsoft's image as a monopoly on the web browser front which is not good even for Microsoft.

This leads to the compatibility issue. Having worked on large web sites in Europe for several years I personally get really mad about having to design web pages in such a way that certain key functions are dropped because of old browsers. That said I understand the situation, do you want to push away potential clients if we're talking about a business. My usage is not for profit, not a business and so I don't really want to think about spending an extra month or more of my time for a very small percentage of my target population and reduce functionality for everyone else in the process.
I do agree however with the stance that says producing flash navigation with christmas bells etc. for the sake of being "flash" (excuse me for the pun) is a bit over the top for me. When multimedia type content is provided for demos, training etc I see the gain but having the page moving all over the place to please the designer just seems excessive.

Javascript, sorry not really thought about it but the comments posted above seem interesting and the GoogleMail reference seems to back the move from my point of view. BTW What is the difference between ActiveX and Javascript (a bit blurred in my mind) the first always seems to be coming up in security discussions I have at work and being far more dangerous than Java.

Product manuals. I think that an html version would be good and a pdf version I don't see the need for a word version.

I think that an installation tutorial would be a good idea, especially for new users even if you are talking about automatic updates. Permission to speak freely ? I can understand working in the computer consultant industry that it is interesting to have clients refer to the editor to install the software but making it easy to install will open new doors and let you provide other services and/or functionality and many who would have asked for the editor to install will most probably do so anyway.

I think that providing a guide to explain how you can change things, which version it applies to and what level you need to be to do it etc. would be a tremendous plus for everyone. I think that just like Laura says above that being able to refer people to hands on areas that explain in clear and simple english what they need to do would be great. The only issue I see would be making sure that the tutorials indicate for example if the modifications only work with version X.X and not with Oracle but will run under mod_perl etc.

Just out of curiosity have you ever thought about creating a workgroup system that would enable programmers to work together on specific tasks and/or a points system that would reward people that provide feedback to other users that they feel has provided them with the solution they were looking for ?

I would really, really, really like to see the editors in LinksSQL being able to manage more in the validation process...
The one are that I feel is not that easy to manage is the templates that are used on LinksSQL to create links, the way they are ordered and displayed.
Oh and what type of security checks will be incorporated to ensure that hackers can't use the automatic updates system to attack the server ?
Significant Media
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Re: [GT Dev Team] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
As it has been mentioned several times, we want to stress that the Gossamer Update feature will not automatically update your installation. It will provide an easy way to see what updates/fixes are available your installation, and allow you to select them to be installed.

Gossamer Threads Development Team
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Re: [cdkrg] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
To provide more information on your issues regarding scalability, we just wanted to point out that we do have some sites running our programs in a clustered environment. For a couple of examples, please check out our new Clustered hosting page here:

http://gossamer-threads.com/hosting/clustered.html

As for the licensing issues, please do feel free to contact Jack directly about that and he can work out details with you that suit your particular needs better.

Thanks for your support of Gossamer Threads and our efforts to continuously improve our offerings.

Gossamer Threads Development Team

Last edited by:

GT Dev Team: Nov 16, 2004, 1:12 PM
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Re: [GT Dev Team] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
In Reply To:
What this means is that if you have a Links SQL version 1 or 2 license, you will still be entitled to free upgrades for life. But if you purchase a copy of Gossamer Links v3, you will need to pay to upgrade to version 4.

What does this mean? I have version 2 of LinksSQL. I need to pay for version 3 or for version 4 when it comes out?


Let's talk about an important issue: timetable. I do hope that the GT Dev Team is now capable to set deadlines for releasing their products so customers can plan their works.
I don't expect you've already set a day for the release of each product but at least a month of 2005?
Thanks
Max
The one with Mac OS X Server 10.4 :)
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Re: [maxpico] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
Quote:
What does this mean? I have version 2 of LinksSQL. I need to pay for version 3 or for version 4 when it comes out?

I don't think it means this. Basically, existing customers will get FREE upgrades (v2.x => v3 => v4) .... but new customers will not get this benefit, so if they buy "Gossamer Links v3", and then when version 4 comes out; they would need to pay the upgrade fee. This is just my interpretation though :)

Quote:
Let's talk about an important issue: timetable. I do hope that the GT Dev Team is now capable to set deadlines for releasing their products so customers can plan their works.
I don't expect you've already set a day for the release of each product but at least a month of 2005?

Its very easy coming from a client's point of view... but timetables are almost IMPOSSIBLE to keep to (unless you happen to have a huge development team).

I know for a fact that GT work their hardest to get products out on time ... but they are still humans... and not everything goes to plan when writing software :| (especially stuff that is as complicated as GT's products :p).

Just keep that in mind Angelic

Cheers

Andy (mod)
andy@ultranerds.co.uk
Want to give me something back for my help? Please see my Amazon Wish List
GLinks ULTRA Package | GLinks ULTRA Package PRO
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Re: [Andy] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
In Reply To:
Basically, existing customers will get FREE upgrades (v2.x => v3 => v4) .... but new customers will not get this benefit, so if they buy "Gossamer Links v3", and then when version 4 comes out; they would need to pay the upgrade fee. This is just my interpretation though :)
Let's hope is that way ;)


In Reply To:
Its very easy coming from a client's point of view... but timetables are almost IMPOSSIBLE to keep to (unless you happen to have a huge development team).

I know for a fact that GT work their hardest to get products out on time ... but they are still humans... and not everything goes to plan when writing software :| (especially stuff that is as complicated as GT's products :p).

Just keep that in mind Angelic

It's useless that everytime one criticizes GT for their unmet timelines you reply with this same stuff. Nowadays in this fast paced world if you're not able to meet timelines you'd better change job or at least you're not successful. It could happen two, three times not to meet an already announced timeline and even so not with several months of delay.
I'm not saying this is easy but you really cannot say that "timetables are almost IMPOSSIBE to keep to...because we're humans". Sorry but this is a loser attitude Tongue
Max
The one with Mac OS X Server 10.4 :)
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Re: [GT Dev Team] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
Hi,

In most things I strongly agree with "Webmaster33".

I think there is a book and website GT should invest in and have a look at, which give answers and some very good tips towards more or less all the questions asked:

http://www.webstyleguide.com (Web Style Guide, 2nd Edition)

It will be a very good idea to have a read through it and keep many of things in that book / website in mind.

GT products templates i.e. xhtml and css should also try to comply to W3C (http://www.w3.org/)


The Questions:

1.

Using CSS and XHTML is a very good idea, since that would simply be to keep up to speed with developments on the rest of the net. No HTML or CSS should be left within the coding since it really messes up any customized looks. Going fully with CSS definitely is the right way to take.

Again as Webmaster33 says:

"GT should only use CSS as long the NS4+ and IE4+ compatibility is maintained!!! It should be kept backward compatible, and readable with 4.x browsers."

Compatibility and backward compatibility is extremely important!! Its important to remember that its the usability of a site that matters not how flashy it looks.

2.

Same again. Extremely important to maintain NS4+ and IE4+ compatibility. A user who cant view your site due to old browser or features not working due to some incompatibility, is a customer lost!

To many designers try to make their site look really cool and fancy, they might please themselves but end up creating websites that are useless and not very good for the people who matters, your customers / visitors.


3.

I would prefer to have no java scripts, or at least only for features that are of no importance. It comes back to Question 2 and compatibility. You really don't want to have something that might make the site look different, not work or make things problematic for any of your visitors.


4.

PDF format is good, but a HTML version should also be available.

5.

Installations seems to be fine, however sometimes it does feel a bit risky. To create backups of existing installations and maintain them should be made easier. Currently there are many different ways it seems to make backups, all of them not very straight forward and to be honest none of them seem to work very well.

I would feel much more confident doing installs and upgrades if I knew that any previous installation was backed up and easy to go back to.

6.

More examples and explanations of how different fields or columns can be used or what they are.

7.

As mentioned before. There is a constant feeling of a unstable product, this I think is mainly due to that for example in LinksSQL there is no 1 simple way of creating a full backup or part backup which then easily can be restored. Or a easy way to retrieve information from a backup file to a fresh installation. The times when something has gone wrong and I have tried do a fresh install.. only to find that whenever I use any backup file, it would tell me that some fields or data is missing.. I then find myself spending a long time trying to create the "correct" environment so that I can use a certain backup file.

There needs to be put in place a easy way to create a backup which will work on any installation, fresh or old. Something that works well and you can rely on. If I was confident that a backup existed which I easily could use then installing, maintain or simply playing around with a install wouldn't be so "scary".

Other features, I agree with some of the other guys have mentioned:

- Support LSQL to hide categories
- Support LSQL to set to exclude categories from link-submitting
- Less templates
- WAP Support (There will a lot of business (and money to make) in the next few years on the WAP / Mobile market.)
- More advanced Editors functions so that they can take over more work from the administrator, i.e. in validating etc. Maybe different levels of Admin access?!
- Easier to share or the possibility to share databases, i.e. 2 different sites (each with its own domain, licence and databases) being able to access and use each others databases. For example to be able to do searches on 2 different domains and database from one site. Basically easier to share and access information.

Quote Reply
Re: [maxpico] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
Quote:
It's useless that everytime one criticizes GT for their unmet timelines you reply with this same stuff. Nowadays in this fast paced world if you're not able to meet timelines you'd better change job or at least you're not successful. It could happen two, three times not to meet an already announced timeline and even so not with several months of delay.
I'm not saying this is easy but you really cannot say that "timetables are almost IMPOSSIBE to keep to...because we're humans". Sorry but this is a loser attitude

Dude... we're all entitled to our opinions. I'm just giving mine, from a developers point of view. Sorry if that offended you.

Cheers

Andy (mod)
andy@ultranerds.co.uk
Want to give me something back for my help? Please see my Amazon Wish List
GLinks ULTRA Package | GLinks ULTRA Package PRO
Links SQL Plugins | Website Design and SEO | UltraNerds | ULTRAGLobals Plugin | Pre-Made Template Sets | FREE GLinks Plugins!
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Re: [Andy] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
Sure Andy. Was just pointing out (in a direct manner) that your opinion is already clear.
Certainly don't want to start a flame on this. Peace Angelic
Max
The one with Mac OS X Server 10.4 :)
Quote Reply
Re: [maxpico] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
Hi Max,

The license interpretation put forth by Andy is correct, all Links SQL version 1 and 2 license holders will continue to get free upgrades for life.

This license change only affects clients who buy Gossamer Links version 3 licenses as their first dealings with GT.

As for development timelines, we're painfully aware of the problems in the past and have put in place several measures to help us address the issues. We shall see if our efforts have been in vain with this development push.

That said, even the largest software companies with their legions of coders have problems meeting timelines, so please don't be too harsh with your criticism should we stumble again, we're doing our best, working late into the night and giving up weekends.

Gossamer Threads Development Team

Last edited by:

GT Dev Team: Nov 17, 2004, 11:09 AM
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Re: [GT Dev Team] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
Hi,

I know that you said you don't want any product specific suggestions but I just thought I'd mention this as it is my biggest bugbear with LinksSQL. If you get a chance at some point it would be great if you could have a look at the internal search so that it would give the highest score to an exact phrase match, then all words, then any words and then substrings (if substrings is on). This would be a huge improvement.

Even if you could just give some pointers on how this might be done that would be helpful.

Thanks,
Laura.
The UK High Street
Quote Reply
Re: [demon] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
In Reply To:
http://www.webstyleguide.com (Web Style Guide, 2nd Edition)

It will be a very good idea to have a read through it and keep many of things in that book / website in mind.
We've recently been looking for a professional web application design firm to design our templates, and based on comments in this thread, we've now enlisted the help of a firm with expertise in XHTML + CSS to help us with the template design and UI improvements.

Thank you for your recommendation of the Web Style Guide book. We do have to take into consideration however that the book is now nearly three years old, and some of its contents might not be entirely applicable today as Netscape, prevalent then, has been
almost completely replaced by by Mozilla and derivatives.

In Reply To:
"GT should only use CSS as long the NS4+ and IE4+ compatibility is maintained!!! It should be kept backward compatible, and readable with 4.x browsers."

Compatibility and backward compatibility is extremely important!! Its important to remember that its the usability of a site that matters not how flashy it looks.
Old browsers like Netscape 4 have extremely limited and broken CSS support. It is impossible to write good/proper XHTML+CSS pages which look the same in new browsers as well as old browsers such as Netscape. However, well written XHTML+CSS will still be 'viewable' in these older browsers - look at Microsoft's webpage for an example. The user can still to use the site, but it won't look pretty. We believe this is an acceptable fallback for 4+ year old browsers.

In Reply To:
I would prefer to have no java scripts, or at least only for features that are of no importance. It comes back to Question 2 and compatibility. You really don't want to have something that might make the site look different, not work or make things problematic for any of your visitors.
As stated in the original post, javascript would only be used in providing extra non-essential features. For users without javascript, we will ensure that the UI won't be cluttered with non-working javascript links/buttons. A good example of this is the address book autocompletion that will be available in Gossamer Mail 3.x. If you have javascript enabled, you will be able to autocomplete addresses from your address book when composing an e-mail, otherwise, the text input acts like a normal text field.

In Reply To:
Installations seems to be fine, however sometimes it does feel a bit risky. To create backups of existing installations and maintain them should be made easier. Currently there are many different ways it seems to make backups, all of them not very straight forward and to be honest none of them seem to work very well.

I would feel much more confident doing installs and upgrades if I knew that any previous installation was backed up and easy to go back to.
Thank you for the suggestion, and we will be looking into improving this aspect of our programs.

Gossamer Threads Development Team
Quote Reply
Re: [GT Dev Team] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
Times are changing, but there are still really good reasons to have a "plain" template set. Maybe if you are using "plain" some features are disabled. It wouldn't really mean two full development trees.

Anyway, the big issues are using javascript to validate form input before sending to the server.

To have a javascript category box, so that you pick a top category, the next level opens, and so on. That would be the most major interface improvement of all.

Also, for "serious" or "dangerous" options, like deleting, rather than just a click on a yes or no, you have to type in "yes". One place this is important is in "gadmin" where many windows machines will now place the cursor over the "hot" answer, so if you accidentally (or on a slow machine) click twice, you will force a delete, without an abort.

Typing in a "yes" to delete a server, or MySQL database is much safer, and could be done in javascript.


PUGDOG� Enterprises, Inc.

The best way to contact me is to NOT use Email.
Please leave a PM here.
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Re: [GT Dev Team] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
Hi,

I' d just like to say that having worked on large scale both corporate and Business 2 Consumer web sites in Europe I disagree with the opinion that everything has to be done to keep the system compatible with browsers 4.X. I have spent hours in board rooms with directors explaining that 6% of the target population use 4.X browsers and therefore not only do five new interesting functions need to be dropped and the design needs to be reviewed in certain areas only for them to do a U-Turn when the stats drop by 2% four weeks before launch !

Does somebody have access to up to date stats on the 4.X browser usage (maybe by region as well : America/Europe/Asia...) ?

I don't believe in the whole "winner takes all", "think for yourself first" approach but dropping functionality and usability and design versus "basic usability" seems to me to be very open for discussion. Making decisions can't always be about pleasing everybody without exception to the detriment of over 95% of the people and sometimes that means leaving some people out. Using CSS and XHTML may not be the perfect solution but providing HTML that is XHTML compliant and adding CSS should be the way forward.

I have worked with ergonomics /user friendly specialists over the years and like marketing specialists you sometimes feel like saying well of course we should do that but when they're not there you sometimes forget to do things the right way. In this case we are talking about not providing new functions in certain cases or even not providing more user friendly templates as opposed to reducing functionality for a minute percentage of the population...

Thanks,

John
Significant Media
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Re: [Jag] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
Wanted to add this to my previous post but passed the edit time delay :

PS : I do think that demon's point about "a customer lost" is a valid argument there's no doubt. Even more so if people are selling. However from an economical point of view I suppose one needs to weigh the cost of a) losing functionality to the competition b) the extra cost of backward compatibility (that goes so far back IMHO) compared to losing customers that are using old browsers.

Potentially one could even discuss (but this gets very 'iffy' and I don't really like it) the buying power of people with very old equipment. I've already been in discussions where this argument has been used and for industrial companies it was explained that it's not always valid.

In my case the web site is funded through my own money and for free so I am not interested in spending extra cash (from my pocket) to deal with people that for different reasons cannot or do not want to install newer versions of browsers.

John
Significant Media
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Re: [GT Dev Team] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
In Reply To:
To provide more information on your issues regarding scalability, we just wanted to point out that we do have some sites running our programs in a clustered environment. For a couple of examples, please check out our new Clustered hosting page here:


Is this also a solution for people who don't host with you? Or just another ad for Gossamer hosting? Wink

My biggest suggestion thus far:

Cease selling Gossamer hosting as the answer to problems and feature requests, ebcause some people can't host with Gossamer(I, for one, have explained why over 17 times when getting the ole Gossamer hosting spiel).

I have great respect for Gossamer products and purchase many of them, along with custom coding.

But hosting with Gossamer doesn't make business sense (prices out of market range for fanatically managed servers) and doesn't make technological sense (the best servers G-Host offers have specs under the absolute worst I can get by with) for me, so when I get this spiel each time I contact Gossamer it gets irritating.

And note, I am a big Gossamer fan. Were I not I'd probably never buy Gossamer products again, it sometimes has the feel of dealing with used car salesmen who ignore what you need and harp on a sale.

cdkrg

Able2Know :: Ajooja Directory

Last edited by:

cdkrg: Nov 21, 2004, 2:16 PM
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Re: [GT Dev Team] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
In Reply To:
That said, even the largest software companies with their legions of coders have problems meeting timelines, so please don't be too harsh with your criticism should we stumble again, we're doing our best, working late into the night and giving up weekends.


As an example one could point to teh biggest development team of all, Microsoft.

Look at the Longhorn development cycle. Look at how file indexing changes were delayed and removed from Longhorn because they couldn't meet the schedule.

Development deadlines are diametrically opposed to development quality and sound releases.

Another suggestion for Gossamer: continue to get it right, instead of satisfying those who want deadlines.

cdkrg

Able2Know :: Ajooja Directory

Last edited by:

cdkrg: Nov 21, 2004, 2:20 PM
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Re: [cdkrg] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
Quote:
Is this also a solution for people who don't host with you? Or just another ad for Gossamer hosting?
It's a solution for people who don't have the expertise to handle setting up a clustered environment and/or don't want to manage everything, as well as taking advantage of our experience with mod_perl and our software. What we have done with the Gossamer Host cluster setup can also be done in your own setup if you have the time and experience/knowledge to set it all up. What we meant by the post was more of an example how our products can scale. Sorry about any confusion.

Gossamer Threads Development Team
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Re: [GT Dev Team] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
In Reply To:
As for development timelines, we're painfully aware of the problems in the past and have put in place several measures to help us address the issues. We shall see if our efforts have been in vain with this development push.

I'm glad of that. But still, you don't have an even rough timeline for us? Tongue

Btw, are you looking into Perl 6? I don't know when the final release will come out but it would be cool to have new GT products enhanced with the new features of this major release. http://dev.perl.org/perl6/
Max
The one with Mac OS X Server 10.4 :)

Last edited by:

maxpico: Nov 22, 2004, 4:04 AM
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Re: [cdkrg] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
In Reply To:
In Reply To:
That said, even the largest software companies with their legions of coders have problems meeting timelines, so please don't be too harsh with your criticism should we stumble again, we're doing our best, working late into the night and giving up weekends.


As an example one could point to teh biggest development team of all, Microsoft.

Look at the Longhorn development cycle. Look at how file indexing changes were delayed and removed from Longhorn because they couldn't meet the schedule.

Development deadlines are diametrically opposed to development quality and sound releases.

Another suggestion for Gossamer: continue to get it right, instead of satisfying those who want deadlines.


For me, it is not neccessarily the missed timelines that are frustrating. It is the lack of communication. A timeline will be announced and the announced released date passes, there is no product and no communication from GT.

Then a year later, the product will be released, again with no communication as to why the extra time was needed to get it "right" instead of on time.

I would appreciate more information like the Nov 15th post from the GT Development Team.

I can understand the reasoning for not providing timelines and expected release dates. On the other hand, I don't understand why GT would not want to provide progress reports. Something posted in the announcements forum like:

Links 3.0 (SQL) - Developing features lists, logic and design concepts.

GForum 3.0 - Writing perl code libraries

GMail 3.0 - Close to a (mostly) functional alpha version. Features G, N W have been dropped due to time/budget/technical constraint/lack of demand.

GList 3.0 - Completed internal beta testing, fixing bugs in preparation for non-GT beta testing. New features X,Y and Z have been added.

DBMan SQL 3.0 - Finished initial non-GT beta testing. Preparing for public beta release. If beta goes successfully, this will become the first official release of DBMan 3.0.

This would provide useful information without attempting to predict future timelines.
--
Rob

SW Montana's Online Community
Modular Model Railroading
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Re: [GT Dev Team] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
Just make the move from Gossamer Threads links SQL to the next version an easy one... PLEASE!!! it took me forever to work out all those templates - can't imagine what will happen if I'll have to start over!


Thanks
http://www.FindSP.com - Hosting Directory
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Re: [FindSP.com] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
Quote:
Just make the move from Gossamer Threads links SQL to the next version an easy one... PLEASE!!! it took me forever to work out all those templates - can't imagine what will happen if I'll have to start over!

Just the point I was going to make.

People have spent a lot of time developing templates, and a whole look/feel to their sites, which will, apparantly, be invalidated in the next release. Major work will have to be done to implement it.

I know how complicated the GForum templates are compared to Links, and they are daunting, if not scary.

Vertigo has set in. My head is spinning from trying to visualize the issues here.


PUGDOG� Enterprises, Inc.

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Please leave a PM here.
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Re: [GT Dev Team] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
 

Best regards from
Bremen/Germany

Lothar
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Re: [FindSP.com] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
In Reply To:
Just make the move from Gossamer Threads links SQL to the next version an easy one...
The upgrade from 2.x to 3.x should be the same as a minor 2.x to 2.(x+1) upgrade. Also, with Gossamer Update, future updates will be even easier.

In Reply To:
it took me forever to work out all those templates - can't imagine what will happen if I'll have to start over!
What problems did you have with the templates? We're looking of ways to improve the ease of template upgrades and any input on what problems you had would help.

Gossamer Threads Development Team
Quote Reply
Re: [BeaverheadRiver] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
Hi Rob,

Thanks for your feedback.

Our intention is to fulfill those points you laid out, witness the fact that we started this thread in the first place. We will be posting regular updates in this forum as work progresses, we'll try to provide bi-weekly updates, perhaps even shorter intervals should we accomplish more than expected.

We're making efforts to change our ways and you will see a difference in the communications forthcoming from Gossamer Threads in the next little while.

Projected timelines WILL be posted once we have a concreate idea of what we're dealing with in the push towards the new template format.

Gossamer Threads Development Team
Quote Reply
Re: [GT Dev Team] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
Hi there,

I also spent much time stripping down the standard templates into a set of "clean" templates which only contained the tags required by links.
I then rebuilt all of the templates using Dreamweaver and lots of globals.
Although this took alot of time, I would love Gossamer to push the products into using more CSS to clean the templates up. I would prefer to see a set of standard templates with the absolute bare minmum of html code, so it becomes easier for us to customise.

As others have noted, the feedback on development and timeline of Gossamer products is currently poor.
For instance we all waited 16 months for the upgrade from Linkssql 2.1.2 to Links 2.2.0
This makes me actively search for other similar products who have far more regular releases, with new features.
I'm thinking particularly of photopost php which in 18 months has added so many features. I would now never consider using linkssql with a mod as a photo gallery.

Sorry to all those who spend ages tinkering with the code. I for one would rather see a new release with new features that moved the whole product miles forward rather then having a release "hamstrung" by trying to keep all of the "problems" from earlier releases.

Gossamer should be striving to move forward rather then backwards. I see this debate as being a very positive step forward.

I have looked for other competitor products but still haven't found anything with the power of Linkssql, and such a friendly and positive supporting forum.

Best wishes and keep up the fantastic work.

Piers

p.s. will linksSQL 3.0 be released in 2005?!!!
Quote Reply
Re: [eljot] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
Hi,

where is my text?

Best regards from
Bremen/Germany

Lothar

Last edited by:

eljot: Nov 23, 2004, 3:13 PM
Quote Reply
Re: [eljot] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
Hi Lothar,

We're not sure, we did not remove it, please do post again.

Gossamer Threads Development Team
Quote Reply
Re: [BeaverheadRiver] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
Quote:
I can understand the reasoning for not providing timelines and expected release dates. On the other hand, I don't understand why GT would not want to provide progress reports.


Sounds like you want development roadmaps with milestones.

cdkrg

Able2Know :: Ajooja Directory
Quote Reply
Re: [GT Dev Team] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
GT Dev Team could you reply about my question on Perl 6?
Thanks
Max
The one with Mac OS X Server 10.4 :)
Quote Reply
Re: [maxpico] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
Hi Max,

In Reply To:
GT Dev Team could you reply about my question on Perl 6?
Thanks

Sorry for this, I thought I already had. Basically, our stance is that before we can make Perl 6 a requirement, it not only has to be finished and a final version released, but widespread acceptance of Perl 6 has to occur. Perl 5 code will still work with Parrot (via Ponie), so before we can move from a Perl 5 code base to a Perl 6 code base, we need to know that we aren't cutting of clients who don't have access to Perl 6 on their servers.

To give you a frame of reference for adoptation times, our current code base works with Perl 5.004_04 or later - that target was set about 4 years ago, when 5.004_04 was still encountered on servers from time to time. Today 5.004_04 is pretty much gone, and although 5.005_02 and _03 are encountered from time to time, they are somewhat rare (this knowledge is based mainly on the fact that from time to time 5.6+ code sneaks in, and it usually takes quite some time before we get a bug report about it). We tend to feel that it would be appropriate to lift that requirement to 5.005_02, but we haven't made a final decision on whether or not to require 5.005 for v3 yet.

For reference on release dates (you can get the full list from perldoc perlhist): 5.004_04 was released 1997-Oct-15, 5.005_02 was released 1998-Aug-08, 5.005_03 was released 1999-Mar-28, 5.6.0 - 2000-Mar-22, 5.6.1 - 2001-Apr-08. So, even ignoring the 5.6.0 release date (5.6.0 was admittedly quite buggy), we're still looking at a 3-5+ year upgrade cycle. That said, the Perl 6 upgrade may happen more quickly than that, seeing as Perl 6 code is entirely different.

The best we can give you for now is a "wait and see." If rewriting some of our modules in Perl 6 can significantly improve their performance we may consider maintaining both a Perl 5 and Perl 6 version - but this certainly won't be the common case.

Gossamer Threads Development Team
Quote Reply
Re: [pugdog] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
In Reply To:
Just make the move from Gossamer Threads links SQL to the next version an easy one... PLEASE!!! it took me forever to work out all those templates - can't imagine what will happen if I'll have to start over!
In Reply To:
People have spent a lot of time developing templates, and a whole look/feel to their sites, which will, apparantly, be invalidated in the next release. Major work will have to be done to implement it.
We want to stress that it will not be necessary to start over. Our v3 programs will maintain compatibility with the v2 templates, though you will be on your own when it comes to integrating new features into your existing templates - but with heavy enough modifications, this may well be the case already.

Version 3 will include several new features and a completely redesigned template set, but one of our targets is to *not* break compatibility with v2 template sets or v2 plugins*. Hopefully the new XHTML+CSS design will make it easier for people who are new to the program, or who want to start over - but you will not be forced to do so.

* - as was mentioned before, if it does become necessary in some cases to break compatibility, we'll do our best to make sure the changes are small, and, if changes do occur, we will clearly indicated those changes in our release information.

Gossamer Threads Development Team
Quote Reply
Re: [GT Dev Team] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
Quote:
We want to stress that it will not be necessary to start over. Our v3 programs will maintain compatibility with the v2 templates, though you will be on your own when it comes to integrating new features into your existing templates - but with heavy enough modifications, this may well be the case already.

It would be nice if the first 3.x version has the modified 2.x version templates too. It could be that just one template set, is carried over with all the Features Addition to V3 and the others are left for the users to take up in case they are not using the same V2.x template (or it's derivative).

Thanks
HyTC

Thanks
HyTC
==================================
Mail Me If Contacting Privately Is That Necessary.
==================================

Last edited by:

HyperTherm: Nov 25, 2004, 1:47 PM
Quote Reply
Re: [GT Dev Team] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
I've spent a lot of money over the past couple of years havin GT customise my setup - thus I hope I would be able to easily make use of the new CSS features without having my site $re-done$ all over again.

I also see no mention of RSS feeds - why not? Top ranked sites stay at the top by constantly updating and providing unique content - thus an RSS feed to alert of new material going up and say a snippet of the new link added would be highly useful.

Automatic updates should be optional with a rollback option to minimise crashing a site by an automated procedure.

Glad to hear of the Gossamer AutoRes and Gossamer List upgrades - it's way long overdue just hope the wait is worth it. My copy of Gossamer Mail is not in use so not really concerned about that. Been unable to sell it so far.

As to the name change, Gossamer Links means nothing to a webmaster - especially a newbie - out there looking for a solution such as the one that GT provides. GT Portal Manager or some such name would more convey its features.
Belize Tourism & Country Guide
Belize News
Quote Reply
Re: [mromero] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
WoW.. great topic.. and very good features/comments by users. I would like to pitch in my 2 cents too (my comments are mainly for Links SQL).

Quote:
What do you think of the XHTML+CSS design described in the announcement? Do you think this is a good or poor move, and do you have any suggestions, alternatives, or other ideas that we might consider?
Very good Idea :)

Quote:
Gossamer Update: an automatic update system that downloads updated files from our server, auto-detects current version and updates only the files that need to be updated. You'll never have to run install.cgi again for an update, and never have to upload files manually for posted Official Bug Fixes.
This is a good idea, however an option where admin can disable this feature and have an choice for manual upgrade (as current would also be appreciated)

Quote:
How important is backwards compatibility with older browsers to you? When we say compatibility, we are talking about extremely old browser versions - that is, Netscape 4 and IE 4 - which already are incapable of displaying much of what is on the internet successfully.
I still think there are good number of people out there still using Netscape 4.7 and IE 5.0. Personally I would not care for the support for browsers older than Netscape 4.7, IE 5.0 & Opera 5.0

Quote:
using javascript to add functionality
This is a very bad idea. As even today many people disable javascript within their brower for various reasons, however the number of such people is not that big. But if I am not wrong, dosen't load time increase with the use of javascript ?

Quote:
What suggestions do you have, if any, for the product manuals? Do you find the current format (PDF) useful, or would you consider that we make the manual available in another format, such as MS Word (.doc) or perhaps even broken down into multiple HTML pages?
PDF is just fine, however I would still prefer an online HTML version along with downloaded chm version. As both can load faster and are better than pdf.


Quote:
Have you had any problems with the installation of our products? How can we improve the installation process? Would an installation tutorial be useful?
Current installation method is just perfect. I don't really think a tutorial is required. However a small update would be great.

While installing it ask for the path for "cgi pages" and "build pages", right? however about users ability to specifiy path for "admin" folder too? As right now if anyone is using Links SQL it is too easy to figure out the path to admin location and hence maybe someone trying to test their hacking password too? However the ability to change the /admin/ folder location as desired by user can pratically eliminate this issue.


Quote:
Are there any specific weak spots in our programs currently that you would like to see addressed, with respect to how the overall programs work? We do not refer here to individual product feature requests for this question - but rather areas that affect all of our programs, such as installing, modifying templates, upgrading, etc.

Quote:
Template Set Issue
I LOVE THE CURRENT TEMPLATE METHOD BEING USED IN LINKS SQL. If you guys are working on adding mores then I am all for it, but please do not remove the current method of working with templates.


Select All - While Validating Link
When admin clicks on Validate Link, it shows 5 links per page, however each link are required to be selected individually and if there was an option where all the links can be selected by "Check All" type of button, it would be great.

Stronger Rating Security
Current rating system at Links SQL can easily be abused and can such abuse can actually cause the site's reputation go down the gutter. So any work on setting up a better security system would be very much appreciated.


Multiple-Pages per Listing
We all know that Links SQL is already better than any other Link Management Script in the market, however by adding this feature Links SQL would not only gets extra 1000 steps leads over other link management scripts, but it also actually eliminates the use of most content management systems.

Hide/Un-Hide Categories
This feature has been requested by many users and is actually a wonderful suggestion.
However if this feature is added, it might also be good to make sure that links from hidden categories does not show up on Search Pages, New, Top & Cool Link pages.

Link Sorting for public view
I think this should be pretty easy, but a small section within Tutorial would be even more appreciated.

Link Sorting while Validation
This is a huge requirement. Suppose if there are 500 Links waiting for validation there is no way of sorting them in any manner, however it there was an option to sort this pending validation links based on Title and Date Submitted and Link Owner and URL.

Multiple Link Modification
Current Links SQL Function allows admin to delete multiple links at a time, however if there was a way where admin can do a search and the output result pages is actually editable link section, then such a function can save admin lot of time while keeping up with regular updates in the directory.

Update multiple users
Same as above, but instead of updating links, this request is for updating user profiles by admin.

Delete User & do not delete Links
In current Links SQL setup, if a user is deleted all the links within that Users account are also deleted. How about a option that if user is being deleted, admin have the ability to move all the links to any other account.

Ad Spots - inherit Option
This would enable users to serve targetted advertising within specific categories. An ability where admin can create new category property columns from Links SQL admin, however an option if such columsn will have the inherit property or not. This would save lot of time on a long run.

User Profile (with features)
One thing that Links SQL really lacks is the ability of User Profile. How about a User Profile, which can also be made publically available (admin &/or user optional), along with options where users can manage their favorite links within the directory and also their reviews.

RSS Ability (entire + category specific)
Considering the marketing trend, I personally think RSS is the "must have" for Links SQL. How about RSS function for
1) Top Links for Entire Directory
2) New Links for Entire Directory
3) Top Links for any specificed Category
4) New Links for any specified Category
5) Latest 5/10/x Reviews for entire Directory

New & Top Links
Ability to display New, Top & Cool listing for any category and/or sub category. Where if it is being displayed for Category "Test Name 1", it will also display New or Top or Cool for sub categories below it too.

Advanced Search Guide
Within the tutorial is would be great to add a section on setting up custom search function. So admin can actually customize their advanced search page and give users abilities to search by selecting only Title and/or Description and/or any other Link Property.

Better layout for New/Top/Cool Link Pages
I think New, Top and Cool Links pages can better layouts options, especially New Links Pages. Yahoo is a good example (http://dir.yahoo.com/new/20041125.html)

Ability to Offer & Change Rank order of Sponsored Listing
I am not sure how easy/hard this would be. But an option, where if 5 links are setup as Sponsored (or as described by GT Team), then on every page reload the sponsored link position will be rotated, so every sponsor listing owner gets better exposure. In addition, if the admin is using static build, then the position will be rotated every time the rebuild process takes place.

In addition an ability to setup a time limit for the sponsored listing would be even better. So the listing will remain as sponsored listing for time specified by admin, and if admin does not extend the time, then the listing will change to normal listings on the last day of the specified date.

Link Owner (if Choosen) & Reviewer email notification on review approval
Every time when a link receives a review and the review is approved by admin, I think it is only fair that Link Owner also receives an email with this review. In addition, there should be an option where the link owner have the ability to opt out from receiving email for the review of their listing too.

Link Owner ability to reply for reviews
Once a review is posted for any link, there should be an option for the Link Owner to reply. Such replies will also require admin approval/validation as regular reviews (Links SQL setup optional)


================================================================

Again I would like to thank GT team for the wonderful work and awasome support they have provided.


Vishal

Vishal
-------------------------------------------------------
Quote Reply
Re: [GT Dev Team] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
Hi GT,

good to hear that you are still working to improve your great products.

I think XHTML and CSS is a great thing, although I still don´t know much about the difference between HTML and XHTML.....I think I´ll have to learn XHTML now.

Some suggestions for your update to the new version:

- the new version should be compatible with your "Multi-Language-Plugin"

- it would be great to have a system like the "Page-Builder-Plugin" directly implemented (my link-owners / customers want to have their information presented not just in form of a link with some text, but on more than one page)

- it would be great to have the a system like the "Links-Forum" directly implemented (this shows the website visitor the latest entries in the Forum, without going to the forum immediately)

- somehow, it should be easier to add images to each link (more than one image)

- the rating-system (including review-system): it would be great if my link-owners (customers) are able to approve the "reviews" (of the website-visitors) and then if they want they can release it by themselves on my website by saying: "yes, this review is o.k. - everybody should see it on the website" or "no, delete this review".

- each of my link-owners (customers) will have his own small "website" on my detail-pages. So the URL to this "detailed-page" will be very long and not easy to remember. Is there a possibility to build a software where I can change this URL to http://www.domain.com/linkowner1 and http://www.domain.com/linkowner2 , etc. ?

- what worries me most, I do not know how to back-up all my Links-SQL data. I don´t know how a cron-job or something like this works.
could you build-in an EASY way to back-up all the data ? Like: safe everything which is on the server to my hard-drive and then save everything on a CD ?

- possibilty to order the category-links not only in alphabetic-order, but in manual order.

- I also have the german-language version of Links-SQL. There is an "english-language" spell-checker. This doesn´t make sense.

- would be great if the manual will be in HTML-format

- the easier it is to USE your new software-version V3, the more customers you will get !



Many thanks,

Erich

Last edited by:

erichcyber: Nov 27, 2004, 9:08 PM
Quote Reply
Re: [GT Dev Team] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
1. I think CSS is the way to go for simplifying the templates. It's cleaner, faster and compatible with many browsers. I would be skeptical of tables built with css though, that seems to pose problems with some browsers.

2. The site should look perfect in Explorer 5 and above. I think it should still function in Netscape 4, but it's OK if it looks bad. A surprising number of people still us NS 4 unfortanately...

3. Javascript should only be used for "optional" functionality, like spellcheck. It should not be required for core functions.

5. Yes, I've had trouble installing but I think it's a problem on my end with how we have our server configured. Not much GT could do about that...

Cheers,

Bryan
Quote Reply
Re: [GT Dev Team] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
Hello again everyone,

We've started a new thread with a mockup of the new Gossamer Links version 3, please feel free to check it out:

http://www.gossamer-threads.com/...rum.cgi?post=275592;

Gossamer Threads Development Team

Last edited by:

brewt: Dec 7, 2004, 3:35 PM
Quote Reply
Re: [GT Dev Team] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
I only have one request now. All the others are irrelevant to me.

1) Please test your code rigorously before release.

The numerous bugs introduced by Gossamer in release candidates have been taking up an inordinate amount of my time as of late.

cdkrg

Able2Know :: Ajooja Directory
Quote Reply
Re: [cdkrg] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
I think that this goes without saying....nobody wants buggy code.

I'm sure that GT has never intended to release any product with bugged code. I can only imagine that it is extremely difficult to anticipate and test all possible combinations of hardware and software (browsers, OS, etc.; including multiple versions) that clients will deploy and end users will use to access these sites. Crazy

Dave
Quote Reply
Re: [cdkrg] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
Some further thoughts on the upcoming new versions of GT products:

1. I would hope that the people working on Gossamer List take a good look at other mailing lists in order to improve their product. I refer in particular to Title/FirstName/LastName fields so that we can send out personalised emails. There should be the capability to have batch sending by date and time in the future, automated bounce handling and so on.

2. AutoRes also needs a MAJOR upgrade so that it can approach the capabilities of competing autoresponders, for example Auto Response Plus. Again, Title/FirstName/LastName personalisation, automated bounce handling, time sensitive offers capabilties etc are required.
Belize Tourism & Country Guide
Belize News
Quote Reply
Re: [GT Dev Team] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
Dear GT,

why don´t you just build mostly used "globals" into your program ?
So that I can choose various options with the click of a mouse......like this example: (see link)

http://www.gossamer-threads.com/...apsed;guest=10021582



or another example of just the wish to add images to the system: (see link)

http://www.gossamer-threads.com/...uest=10021719#269891





It´s very hard for a non-expert-programmer (like myself) to look for various available "globals" and to implement them into the system.
This should be possible just by clicking in the admin-aea on "yes, I want this capability" or "no, I don´t need this feature".



Best regards,

Erich

Last edited by:

erichcyber: Dec 9, 2004, 4:11 PM
Quote Reply
Re: [erichcyber] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
In Reply To:
Dear GT,

why don´t you just build mostly used "globals" into your program ?
So that I can choose various options with the click of a mouse......like this example: (see link)

Erich
I support this 100% GT should make it's products easier to use for most webmasters by having all the options available by clicking on a buttom - something like what we have in VBulletin. This might make for some disgruntled consultants who would have little if any "custom programming" to do, but your volume of users would more than make up for this loss.

I think I've said it before, GT has most of the work already done (paid for by those that have hired GT to do custom programming) to make a GT Portal manager which would be a killer app for webmasters. If they do not do it soon someone else will.
Belize Tourism & Country Guide
Belize News
Quote Reply
Re: [bretzke] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
In Reply To:
I think that this goes without saying....nobody wants buggy code.

I'm sure that GT has never intended to release any product with bugged code. I can only imagine that it is extremely difficult to anticipate and test all possible combinations of hardware and software (browsers, OS, etc.; including multiple versions) that clients will deploy and end users will use to access these sites. Crazy

Dave


I agree, but the bugs are not always of that nature. I have found bugs caused simply because they had incorrect code. Testing it just once, under any platform would have found over 75% of the bugs I have found.

For example, they used to have a nonsensical textarea in the admin templates. It meant that sending a rejection email would not work.

It would not work on any platform at any time. Testing it just once would have discovered the bug.

GT has some fantastic coders and these bugs are not as common as with other vendors.

But each of the last few versions of LSQL have had significant bugs and in most cases just testing each feature an function once before release would likely have caught them.

cdkrg

Able2Know :: Ajooja Directory
Quote Reply
Re: [GT Dev Team] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
I would just announce competition of web developers to create templates (100%CSS) and the top 3 winners would win $500 coupon to buy your scripts. Or something likes this. This would go fast and you could pick form many.

Pirate

Quote Reply
Re: [GT Dev Team] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
Hello GT Dev Team

Hope I am not stating something of a *Big Jump" in terms of feature request but yes since it's a Version change, it should be more feature packed.

Applicability : All GT products.
Component : Admin controlled Help Documentation For Users.

Brief Details Of Requirements:

  • The Help Documentation is Admin Controlled And DB based rather than present form.
  • Users Should be able to query (search) the Help Section Separately.
  • Admin Can Set a Topic Public/Autheticated so that the Help Document(s) are either vieable by all or Viewable By Authenticated Users Only.
  • The Help Section Should be controlled from the Admin side of Application.
This is just a brief idea and perhaps others could/would add on to this. I am not sure if it was lycos or somewhere, a searchable help documentation after logging to mail account was there. Few other commercial mail applications have a provision of user being able to Submit how he found the answer (Helpful/Useless/etc/etc)

Sorry this occurred to me so late, but "Better late Than Never" :)

Thanks
HyTC

Thanks
HyTC
==================================
Mail Me If Contacting Privately Is That Necessary.
==================================
Quote Reply
Re: [GT Dev Team] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
  1. I think the move to XHTML 1.0 + CSS is a positive move in the right direction. What I would encourage is at least making the GT generated HTML output XHTML 1.0 Strict compliant. Then have the option in setup or in the template to use Strict or Transitional. While doing Strict is a !@#!@# it would at least allow the ability to pass the Strict validator or Transitional Validator (and I would encourage GT to develope templates and test code generation against the validators)
    In terms of too complicated, I would say that there are so many HTML books/resources available that explain how to work with CSS, that I think some responsibility for learning (or you provide good tutorial) needs to be placed on the Links3 owner.
    I love csszengarden.com and what they have done. I agree, you can really come up with something awsome and its just CSS. If that is the goal, and GT can provide several template examples, it would be easy to examine and modify.
  2. In my case, I appeal to a wide audience, yet I feel that IE 5.0 and Netscape 5 and Mozilla 1.0 should be adequate requirements "for optimal viewing". But I wont loose sleep if I don't have backwords compatability.
  3. I think Javascript would be acceptable when used appropriately. There are people who turn it off, but there are also a lot of sites, banking, onlnie stores, etc that require Javascript.
  4. PDF manual is acceptable documentation. Maybee JavaHelp or similar help generated output from Robohelp, etc to give a single source multiple output help system would be appropriate.
  5. No problems with installation.
  6. Tutorials would probably not benefit me, but I've been using Links for many years. However, for a newby, it might.
  7. The auto-update feature is a nice feature. Naturally, there would need to be some sort of provision to handle manually changed code.
  8. I agree with Manu and that a built in email/newsletter function would provide better value to Links. HTML / Text Email capability would be great, with having the HTML email include the Text part.
  9. Making categories visible/invisible could prove beneficial, especially when doing a reorganization of content as a temporary stomping ground. By using that logic of Allow, Deny, Inherit, it would really beef up some functionality.
  10. I agree, coming up with a Dreaweaver hook would be awsome. And your right, it may not show properly. I would look at what other similar DW extensions have done, like Mambo.
  11. RSS Feed capability. This would be great based on combinations of categories, sub categories, etc. Top links, new links, etc etc.
  12. Improved / more intuitive handling of sponsored links.

Lance Rasmussen
Bowlingzone.com
Quote Reply
Re: [GT Dev Team] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
Here's a Feature - How about the ability to remove duplicate url's in the same category?
Quote Reply
Re: [GT Dev Team] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
Hi,
I suppose it is too late for this type of request but it would be great if it was possible in LinksSQL to allow editors to view the content before it is published so they can check what they have added doesn't create any page layout issues but also to check it out and see what it will looks like before publishing, read it one last time and check for typos etc.

At the moment you basically have to validate the article in order to check this type of thing out which is not really a great solution since users will see it straight away.

It would also be nice if users could preview their reviews before posting them...

John
Significant Media
Quote Reply
Re: [GT Dev Team] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
I’d like to see a merge facility added.

I have many duplicate URLs due to imports but they are in different categories so they are relevant.
I’d like a way to merge these to remove duplicates but maintain the extra categories and information.

Regards

minesite
Quote Reply
Re: [GT Dev Team] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
Hi,

I think most people are really going to be interested about having a Remote Authentication Module for each of the products.

It would be better to put a Price Tag on each of these modules so that they move up in development. They shouldn't be free.

Thank you, peter
Quote Reply
Re: [pyc] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
GT team hasn't replied in a while...

I just have two things that need to be said...

1. I don't think anyone at GT has any idea the amount of time users spend customizing templates. It's not that users don't want to start all over customizing their templates, its that they don't want to spend the TIME customizing them. Sometimes a fresh start can be a good thing. I know in my templates I have 3 main features: header, footer, general design... If those countless hours I spent customizing templates were not mostly REDUNDANT, there would be no need to complain. I'd like to be able to customize one template, press a button so that all templates get this look, and maybe manually do the rest. I really don't know the best way it should be done, but I do know that the templates need to be easily edited and dealt with, while still keeping customization. A GT customized WYSIWIG might be cool to edit templates. SPEND A LOT OF TIME FINDING THE BEST WAY TO MAKE THIS PROCESS EASIER!

2. My next problem I have is with customization. The plugin feature of linksSQL is one of the best ideas I have seen on here. There needs to be more time spent on this. Why? Think about this... once GT gets the plugin section to the point where it needs to be, the users (your clients), can do the rest of the work (well at least take some of the burden off of everyone). It should be easy to create a plugin that does the simplest things like changing : to > in the categories. There could maybe be a section in the GT plugin area for official plugins, and for non official plugins. Instead of a user asking a redundant question spaming the forum, searching, and editing core code, the user could simply go to plugins and click one button to have it installed. There are so many answers to customization questions and great ideas, that are buried in this forum maybe never to return. Once the answer is found, an inexperienced user should be able to copy and paste some code here and there solving some problems of experienced users. ONCE A FEATURE IS FOUND, IT SHOULD NOT BE DOCUMENTED AND BURIED IN THIS FORUM, IT SHOULD BE ADDED AS A NEW PLUGIN ONE CLICK AWAY FROM A USER.


- side note: Something I think GT should incorporate to G-Community is to allow users to customize their homepage: http://my.yahoo.com/ (Obviously this is some of the most complicated code written, but GT definitely has the direction right... )


Reading, Not Sleeping, Typing and Writing.... just plain delirious

Taking one step at a time Unsure

- Jonathan

Last edited by:

jdgamble: Jan 13, 2005, 3:23 AM
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Re: [jdgamble] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
For what it's worth I'll add my $0.02 to the discussion

two thumbs up regarding easier backups/restores! They would certainly help the clumsy among usBlush

i'd really like to see a couple of things.

1) the ability to sort by criteria other than date and then subsort as well
ie sort first by geography and then by date .

2) a one button 'date site live' option

this option would over ride the date added and is verified fields.
this way links admins could easily work ahead.

ie i want go on vaction. I add and verify a pile of sites on January 1st but don't want them to be visible til January 15 and when they are visible it would appear to the surfer that the sites were indeed added on January 15.

Hope that's clear!

Any word on an approx release date?
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Re: [GT Dev Team] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
Referring to the post containing new suggestion:
[Suggestion] Search Engine Friendly GT v3.0 apps & URL translations

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Webmaster33


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Re: [GT Dev Team] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
Replied to your post in following new thread:
CPAN release of GT lib (or modules)

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Re: [webmaster33] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
GT,
I know this may come up... so I'll ask it now...
With the option of putting detailed pages into the subcategories, is there a way to do a redirect on a massive scale from the /Detailed/1.html to the new page under the subcategory, for example,
<%if category_id eq "Arts" redirect "category_name"%> or something like that??

</not a clue>
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Re: Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
Quote:
The (LSQL/Forum) email/newsletter-functionallity should be developed:
Also some kind of newsletter/mail-bounce-handling would be very great!
At last the newsletter-subscription-functionallity should use an double-opt-in.
Quote:

I know this has been dropped in priority, but in truth, the true community directories that email their link owners and have regularly send out newsletters NEED this to be able to conform with CAN-SPAM regulations. I have not emailed my newsletter subscribers or link owners in over a year due to the CAN-SPAM issues. Maybe because you are not based in the US you don't see this as an issue, but for me it is an extremely important issue. I would like to see bounce handling that not only kills the email address, but the user and links associated with it because in most cases a bounced email also means a website has disappeared. Yes, I can use a third party script or service, but with 45,000 email addresses across my licenses, the cost is out of line and I would still need to manually remove the addresses and links from my directory, as well as having to add new subscribers manually as they add links. This would be worth the cost of a full upgrade.
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Re: [loxly] Gossamer Threads Development Survey In reply to
As I already mentioned in other threads, in my opinion it is essential (!) that GT focusses much more on interactivity.

In GT Links SQL the end users should be able to set up own categories and manage them on their own.

In GT Mail resp. GT List the end users should be able to set up own mailinglist lists and manage them on their own (like discussion lists).

In GT Community the end users should be able to set up own homepages and personal calenders and manage them on their own.

In GT Forum the end users should be able to set up own forums and manage them on their own.

In GT Autorespond the end users should be able to set up own autoresponders and manage them on their own.

Besides, a Yahoogroups or Yahooclubs script and a Blogger.com script should be developed.

Finally, it should be possible to buy all above mentioned products as a package and this package should run "out of the box".