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Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil.

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simon at joyful

Oct 9, 2006, 10:29 AM

Post #1 of 32 (3809 views)
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Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil.

Hi Martijn, thanks for your response. I'm replying on-list -

Martijn Faassen wrote:
> Jim's answer about brittle mess on the mailing list makes it clear.
It makes his thinking clear, yes. I'm not clear on why he thinks that
way. I would think: a zope.org that's so fragile it can't be touched by
Jim Fulton is intolerable, and if upgrading a product risks breaking
some of it, so be it; the bits that broke were in the way. Big deal,
bring them back later; or not. But that's just my perspective; I won't
get to make this decision. :)

> What you need to do in order to get Apache access is contact Rob Page
> (rob [at] zope) (I've cc-ed him) and get and sign the agreement with ZC
> that you won't break their hosting environment.
>
> Also: subscribe to zope-web [at] zope if you haven't already.
I'm here of course, but via gmane so you won't see me in the subscriber
list.

> Once we actually have responsive community members to fulfill
> technical tasks, we can make progress. If you'd be willing to take on
> some Apache config work on the current infrastructure I'd be very
> grateful!
Regarding this and the above - thanks for the guidance. I have these
responses -

- I am carefully volunteering for very specific, well-defined tasks I
know I understand and can keep motivated to work on; right now that is a
zwiki upgrade. (Or, at least understanding the conditions under which it
could happen.)

- Also I think you have good people already looking into apache (Jens,
Andrew, Justizin).

- I've seen this twisty passage before. I'm pretty sure I signed an
agreement for website work a few years back. It didn't give me
permission to really fix things then and I don't think it would now.

- I understand why the paperwork exists, but I think it represents some
bureaucracy that is near the root of the problem with zope.org. I feel
to engage with it only repeats the cycle of private email, delay, loss
of momentum, and prolongs the bigger problem. Give a volunteer a login,
and (s)he'll get to work..

- If Rob will (re)post the url of the official current version of the
appropriate agreement, I will read it with a fresh mind and reconsider.
I do want to help in some way.

_______________________________________________
Zope-web maillist - Zope-web [at] zope
http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web

jim at zope

Oct 9, 2006, 11:00 AM

Post #2 of 32 (3763 views)
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Re: Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil. [In reply to]

Simon Michael wrote:
> Hi Martijn, thanks for your response. I'm replying on-list -
>
> Martijn Faassen wrote:
>> Jim's answer about brittle mess on the mailing list makes it clear.
> It makes his thinking clear, yes. I'm not clear on why he thinks that
> way. I would think: a zope.org that's so fragile it can't be touched by
> Jim Fulton is intolerable, and if upgrading a product risks breaking
> some of it, so be it; the bits that broke were in the way.

I don't have any mystic power that allows me to understand any Zope
application. I am also not a CMF developer.

...

>> What you need to do in order to get Apache access is contact Rob Page
>> (rob [at] zope) (I've cc-ed him) and get and sign the agreement with ZC
>> that you won't break their hosting environment.

That's not enough to change the apache config. If you want to make a change
to the apache config, I'll make it for you. I'll be happy to work with someone
on irc at an agreed upon time.

...

> - I understand why the paperwork exists, but I think it represents some
> bureaucracy that is near the root of the problem with zope.org.

I agree.

> I feel
> to engage with it only repeats the cycle of private email, delay, loss
> of momentum, and prolongs the bigger problem. Give a volunteer a login,
> and (s)he'll get to work..

Again, I agree.

This is necessary because zope.org is hosted in the same cluster with our
commercial customers and we have to be extremely conservative. This
is why zope.org needs to move to a new home.

Jim

--
Jim Fulton mailto:jim [at] zope Python Powered!
CTO (540) 361-1714 http://www.python.org
Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org
_______________________________________________
Zope-web maillist - Zope-web [at] zope
http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web

sidnei at enfoldsystems

Oct 9, 2006, 11:26 AM

Post #3 of 32 (3751 views)
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Re: Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil. [In reply to]

On Mon, Oct 09, 2006 at 02:00:24PM -0400, Jim Fulton wrote:
| I don't have any mystic power that allows me to understand any Zope
| application. I am also not a CMF developer.

That's something I never understood.

It's not only a problem with Jim, but people that can understand the
most obscure issues about memory management or deep C-level hackery,
or insane operating system level APIs or and Linux kernel issues,
sometimes with 5-10 years of Python experience, just state that they
don't have enough knowledge to debug a random application.

C'mon. There's not any magic going on there. The hardest issues you
will face are Acquisition and Page Templates. Sometimes you have to
just do it. Several times I've found myself in this situation. There's
nothing that can't be understood by stepping through pdb all the way
from BaseRequest to the guts of an application.

I know it's tedious, and that it might take several tries until you
realize what's exactly going on. But it is doable. There's a
difference between 'I can't do it' and 'I don't want to do it'. Being
in the latter group is fine, but I would say it's highly questionable
for an experienced developer to put himself in the first group without
a reasonable excuse.

Sorry for the rant. I don't want to be pointing fingers. I'm just
tired of hearing the same excuses over and over everytime someone
mentions touching the software behind zope.org.

--
Sidnei da Silva
Enfold Systems http://enfoldsystems.com
Fax +1 832 201 8856 Office +1 713 942 2377 Ext 214
_______________________________________________
Zope-web maillist - Zope-web [at] zope
http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web

jim at zope

Oct 9, 2006, 11:49 AM

Post #4 of 32 (3750 views)
Permalink

Re: Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil. [In reply to]

Sidnei da Silva wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 09, 2006 at 02:00:24PM -0400, Jim Fulton wrote:
> | I don't have any mystic power that allows me to understand any Zope
> | application. I am also not a CMF developer.
>
> That's something I never understood.
>
> It's not only a problem with Jim, but people that can understand the
> most obscure issues about memory management or deep C-level hackery,
> or insane operating system level APIs or and Linux kernel issues,
> sometimes with 5-10 years of Python experience, just state that they
> don't have enough knowledge to debug a random application.
>
> C'mon. There's not any magic going on there. The hardest issues you
> will face are Acquisition and Page Templates. Sometimes you have to
> just do it. Several times I've found myself in this situation. There's
> nothing that can't be understood by stepping through pdb all the way
> from BaseRequest to the guts of an application.
>
> I know it's tedious, and that it might take several tries until you
> realize what's exactly going on. But it is doable. There's a
> difference between 'I can't do it' and 'I don't want to do it'. Being
> in the latter group is fine, but I would say it's highly questionable
> for an experienced developer to put himself in the first group without
> a reasonable excuse.

It's not a question of debugging some isolated problem. It's
a question of making a change to a large system that has been fraught
with problems. A system that most people who work on zope.org
don't want to touch. A system that was abandoned by it's original
author.

Having said that, I said that I would be willing to work with someone
familiar with the zope.org software yo update ZWiki. No one has stepped
forward yet. I wonder why.

Jim

--
Jim Fulton mailto:jim [at] zope Python Powered!
CTO (540) 361-1714 http://www.python.org
Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org
_______________________________________________
Zope-web maillist - Zope-web [at] zope
http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web

simon at joyful

Oct 9, 2006, 12:07 PM

Post #5 of 32 (3756 views)
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Re: Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil. [In reply to]

Jim Fulton wrote:
> Having said that, I said that I would be willing to work with someone
> familiar with the zope.org software yo update ZWiki. No one has stepped
> forward yet. I wonder why.

Er.. I'd guess because: that was less than an hour ago; I heard you talk
about apache work, not a zwiki upgrade; very few people on the planet are
familiar with the zope.org software. Perhaps that's the point you are making ?

Again, continuing with my naive thought experiments focussed on this one
issue, a zwiki upgrade, I would be thinking: (a) upgrading zwiki is not
going to break other parts of the site, and it's certainly not going to
require me to debug CMF; and (b) if I'm wrong, I've learned something, I
replace the old zwiki version and consider next steps.

_______________________________________________
Zope-web maillist - Zope-web [at] zope
http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web

justizin at siggraph

Oct 9, 2006, 12:32 PM

Post #6 of 32 (3762 views)
Permalink

Re: Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil. [In reply to]

On 10/9/06, Jim Fulton <jim [at] zope> wrote:
> Sidnei da Silva wrote:
> > On Mon, Oct 09, 2006 at 02:00:24PM -0400, Jim Fulton wrote:
> > | I don't have any mystic power that allows me to understand any Zope
> > | application. I am also not a CMF developer.
> >
> > That's something I never understood.
> >
> > It's not only a problem with Jim, but people that can understand the
> > most obscure issues about memory management or deep C-level hackery,
> > or insane operating system level APIs or and Linux kernel issues,
> > sometimes with 5-10 years of Python experience, just state that they
> > don't have enough knowledge to debug a random application.
> >
> > C'mon. There's not any magic going on there. The hardest issues you
> > will face are Acquisition and Page Templates. Sometimes you have to
> > just do it. Several times I've found myself in this situation. There's
> > nothing that can't be understood by stepping through pdb all the way
> > from BaseRequest to the guts of an application.
> >
> > I know it's tedious, and that it might take several tries until you
> > realize what's exactly going on. But it is doable. There's a
> > difference between 'I can't do it' and 'I don't want to do it'. Being
> > in the latter group is fine, but I would say it's highly questionable
> > for an experienced developer to put himself in the first group without
> > a reasonable excuse.
>
> It's not a question of debugging some isolated problem. It's
> a question of making a change to a large system that has been fraught
> with problems. A system that most people who work on zope.org
> don't want to touch. A system that was abandoned by it's original
> author.
>
> Having said that, I said that I would be willing to work with someone
> familiar with the zope.org software yo update ZWiki. No one has stepped
> forward yet. I wonder why.
>

Is there a reason you can't just see what happens when you bring up a
copy of zope.org with the latest ZWiki? Is there a list of issues? I
face this problem somewhat as well, though I can be blamed for most of
siggraph.org, some of it is legacy and it has taken me up to a year to
get some products out of the mix which were around before I started.

Usually when new versions of upstream code come out, I bring them up
in dev.siggraph.org, poke at anything flaky I can think of, and ask
people to try it out for a month or so. Any time something is broken
until we get this working, it's a sad state of affairs IMO, but it's
better than being dead in the water.

--
Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect
ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter
http://www.siggraph.org/
_______________________________________________
Zope-web maillist - Zope-web [at] zope
http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web

jim at zope

Oct 9, 2006, 12:44 PM

Post #7 of 32 (3762 views)
Permalink

Re: Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil. [In reply to]

Simon Michael wrote:
> Jim Fulton wrote:
>> Having said that, I said that I would be willing to work with someone
>> familiar with the zope.org software yo update ZWiki. No one has stepped
>> forward yet. I wonder why.
>
> Er.. I'd guess because: that was less than an hour ago; I heard you talk
> about apache work,

Yes.

> not a zwiki upgrade;

That was yesterday:

"Because zope.org is a brittle mess and I don't want to take a chance of making
in worse. If someone who feels that they have some grasp on that software
wants to help me, I'd be willing to try. "

Perhaps you took so much offense at the first part of what I said,
you didn't notice the second part.

> very few people on the planet
> are familiar with the zope.org software. Perhaps that's the point you
> are making ?

Yes.

> Again, continuing with my naive thought experiments focussed on this one
> issue, a zwiki upgrade, I would be thinking: (a) upgrading zwiki is not
> going to break other parts of the site, and it's certainly not going to
> require me to debug CMF; and (b) if I'm wrong, I've learned something, I
> replace the old zwiki version and consider next steps.

<shrug>

I don't know. Does ZWiki have any tendrils in CMF? Has the version
of ZWiki used on zope.org been modified in any way to work with the
CMF? I don't know.

Oh, BTW, zope.org runs some revision of the Zope 2.6 branch.
Does the latest ZWiki work with that?

Michael Haubenwallner,

Do you have any opinion on this? Should we try doing a ZWiki
upgrade?

Jim

--
Jim Fulton mailto:jim [at] zope Python Powered!
CTO (540) 361-1714 http://www.python.org
Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org
_______________________________________________
Zope-web maillist - Zope-web [at] zope
http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web

sidnei at enfoldsystems

Oct 9, 2006, 12:50 PM

Post #8 of 32 (3732 views)
Permalink

Re: Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil. [In reply to]

On Mon, Oct 09, 2006 at 03:44:31PM -0400, Jim Fulton wrote:
| I don't know.

| Does ZWiki have any tendrils in CMF?

Not that I know of.

| Has the version
| of ZWiki used on zope.org been modified in any way to work with the
| CMF?

Not that I know of.

| Oh, BTW, zope.org runs some revision of the Zope 2.6 branch.
| Does the latest ZWiki work with that?

That's more likely to cause trouble.

--
Sidnei da Silva
Enfold Systems http://enfoldsystems.com
Fax +1 832 201 8856 Office +1 713 942 2377 Ext 214
_______________________________________________
Zope-web maillist - Zope-web [at] zope
http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web

jim at zope

Oct 9, 2006, 12:51 PM

Post #9 of 32 (3751 views)
Permalink

Re: Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil. [In reply to]

Justizin wrote:
> On 10/9/06, Jim Fulton <jim [at] zope> wrote:
>> Sidnei da Silva wrote:
>> > On Mon, Oct 09, 2006 at 02:00:24PM -0400, Jim Fulton wrote:
>> > | I don't have any mystic power that allows me to understand any Zope
>> > | application. I am also not a CMF developer.
>> >
>> > That's something I never understood.
>> >
>> > It's not only a problem with Jim, but people that can understand the
>> > most obscure issues about memory management or deep C-level hackery,
>> > or insane operating system level APIs or and Linux kernel issues,
>> > sometimes with 5-10 years of Python experience, just state that they
>> > don't have enough knowledge to debug a random application.
>> >
>> > C'mon. There's not any magic going on there. The hardest issues you
>> > will face are Acquisition and Page Templates. Sometimes you have to
>> > just do it. Several times I've found myself in this situation. There's
>> > nothing that can't be understood by stepping through pdb all the way
>> > from BaseRequest to the guts of an application.
>> >
>> > I know it's tedious, and that it might take several tries until you
>> > realize what's exactly going on. But it is doable. There's a
>> > difference between 'I can't do it' and 'I don't want to do it'. Being
>> > in the latter group is fine, but I would say it's highly questionable
>> > for an experienced developer to put himself in the first group without
>> > a reasonable excuse.
>>
>> It's not a question of debugging some isolated problem. It's
>> a question of making a change to a large system that has been fraught
>> with problems. A system that most people who work on zope.org
>> don't want to touch. A system that was abandoned by it's original
>> author.
>>
>> Having said that, I said that I would be willing to work with someone
>> familiar with the zope.org software yo update ZWiki. No one has stepped
>> forward yet. I wonder why.
>>
>
> Is there a reason you can't just see what happens when you bring up a
> copy of zope.org with the latest ZWiki?

Do you have any idea how to bring up a copy of zope.org? Do you know what
I would need to copy? If it didn't work, would it be because I did
something wrong in the copy? This is probably a large amount of work.

> Is there a list of issues?

With what?

> I
> face this problem somewhat as well, though I can be blamed for most of
> siggraph.org, some of it is legacy and it has taken me up to a year to
> get some products out of the mix which were around before I started.

Sorry, I don't have a year to spend on zope.org.

> Usually when new versions of upstream code come out, I bring them up
> in dev.siggraph.org, poke at anything flaky I can think of, and ask
> people to try it out for a month or so. Any time something is broken
> until we get this working, it's a sad state of affairs IMO, but it's
> better than being dead in the water.

With enough effort we could create some kind of staging environment
for zope.org. I know that I couldn't commit the time necessary.

Jim

--
Jim Fulton mailto:jim [at] zope Python Powered!
CTO (540) 361-1714 http://www.python.org
Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org
_______________________________________________
Zope-web maillist - Zope-web [at] zope
http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web

sidnei at enfoldsystems

Oct 9, 2006, 12:57 PM

Post #10 of 32 (3759 views)
Permalink

Re: Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil. [In reply to]

On Mon, Oct 09, 2006 at 02:49:48PM -0400, Jim Fulton wrote:
| It's not a question of debugging some isolated problem. It's
| a question of making a change to a large system that has been fraught
| with problems. A system that most people who work on zope.org
| don't want to touch. A system that was abandoned by it's original
| author.

I can help if a) there's no papers to sign and b) you don't mind
staying up to 4am for several days.

| Having said that, I said that I would be willing to work with someone
| familiar with the zope.org software yo update ZWiki. No one has stepped
| forward yet. I wonder why.

To the best of my knowledge several people have volunteer to
help. They were mostly turned off because of issues with signing
agreements. If you can think of a way to allow people to help with a
low barrier of contribution then I'm sure someone will help.

--
Sidnei da Silva
Enfold Systems http://enfoldsystems.com
Fax +1 832 201 8856 Office +1 713 942 2377 Ext 214
_______________________________________________
Zope-web maillist - Zope-web [at] zope
http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web

sidnei at enfoldsystems

Oct 9, 2006, 12:59 PM

Post #11 of 32 (3731 views)
Permalink

Re: Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil. [In reply to]

| With enough effort we could create some kind of staging environment
| for zope.org. I know that I couldn't commit the time necessary.

Is there a person that can commit the time necessary?

--
Sidnei da Silva
Enfold Systems http://enfoldsystems.com
Fax +1 832 201 8856 Office +1 713 942 2377 Ext 214
_______________________________________________
Zope-web maillist - Zope-web [at] zope
http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web

justizin at siggraph

Oct 9, 2006, 1:08 PM

Post #12 of 32 (3730 views)
Permalink

Re: Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil. [In reply to]

> > Again, continuing with my naive thought experiments focussed on this one
> > issue, a zwiki upgrade, I would be thinking: (a) upgrading zwiki is not
> > going to break other parts of the site, and it's certainly not going to
> > require me to debug CMF; and (b) if I'm wrong, I've learned something, I
> > replace the old zwiki version and consider next steps.
>
> <shrug>
>
> I don't know. Does ZWiki have any tendrils in CMF? Has the version
> of ZWiki used on zope.org been modified in any way to work with the
> CMF? I don't know.

Very good questions. We can always start with a diff -urN of the live
zwiki version vs. the latest release, and/or the zwiki version it
reports itself as being. I volunteer. :)

> Oh, BTW, zope.org runs some revision of the Zope 2.6 branch.
> Does the latest ZWiki work with that?

Yesh and why don't we look into moving to a modern version of Zope? A
good first step would be to build a checklist of what's holding us
back.

--
Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect
ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter
http://www.siggraph.org/
_______________________________________________
Zope-web maillist - Zope-web [at] zope
http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web

andrew at sawdog

Oct 9, 2006, 1:20 PM

Post #13 of 32 (3725 views)
Permalink

Re: Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil. [In reply to]

How much disk space is available on the production boxes? We could copy and
setup instances based on existing install changing necessary config and
simply testing the product update - that would be the quickest route IMNSHO.
Looks like there's enough room on the storage server....I just can't get to
the app servers it appears.

Andrew

On 10/9/06 4:08 PM, "Justizin" <justizin [at] siggraph> wrote:

>>> Again, continuing with my naive thought experiments focussed on this one
>>> issue, a zwiki upgrade, I would be thinking: (a) upgrading zwiki is not
>>> going to break other parts of the site, and it's certainly not going to
>>> require me to debug CMF; and (b) if I'm wrong, I've learned something, I
>>> replace the old zwiki version and consider next steps.
>>
>> <shrug>
>>
>> I don't know. Does ZWiki have any tendrils in CMF? Has the version
>> of ZWiki used on zope.org been modified in any way to work with the
>> CMF? I don't know.
>
> Very good questions. We can always start with a diff -urN of the live
> zwiki version vs. the latest release, and/or the zwiki version it
> reports itself as being. I volunteer. :)
>
>> Oh, BTW, zope.org runs some revision of the Zope 2.6 branch.
>> Does the latest ZWiki work with that?
>
> Yesh and why don't we look into moving to a modern version of Zope? A
> good first step would be to build a checklist of what's holding us
> back.

_______________________________________________
Zope-web maillist - Zope-web [at] zope
http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web

jim at zope

Oct 9, 2006, 1:31 PM

Post #14 of 32 (3758 views)
Permalink

Re: Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil. [In reply to]

Sidnei da Silva wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 09, 2006 at 02:49:48PM -0400, Jim Fulton wrote:
> | It's not a question of debugging some isolated problem. It's
> | a question of making a change to a large system that has been fraught
> | with problems. A system that most people who work on zope.org
> | don't want to touch. A system that was abandoned by it's original
> | author.
>
> I can help if a) there's no papers to sign and

Not if I do the work.

> b) you don't mind
> staying up to 4am for several days.

I do mind.

> | Having said that, I said that I would be willing to work with someone
> | familiar with the zope.org software yo update ZWiki. No one has stepped
> | forward yet. I wonder why.
>
> To the best of my knowledge several people have volunteer to
> help. They were mostly turned off because of issues with signing
> agreements. If you can think of a way to allow people to help with a
> low barrier of contribution then I'm sure someone will help.

That's why we want to move zope.org out of our cluster.
This is something that the Foundation is working on.

Jim

--
Jim Fulton mailto:jim [at] zope Python Powered!
CTO (540) 361-1714 http://www.python.org
Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org
_______________________________________________
Zope-web maillist - Zope-web [at] zope
http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web

regebro at gmail

Oct 9, 2006, 1:35 PM

Post #15 of 32 (3749 views)
Permalink

Re: Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil. [In reply to]

On 10/9/06, Sidnei da Silva <sidnei [at] enfoldsystems> wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 09, 2006 at 03:44:31PM -0400, Jim Fulton wrote:
> | I don't know.
>
> | Does ZWiki have any tendrils in CMF?
>
> Not that I know of.
>
> | Has the version
> | of ZWiki used on zope.org been modified in any way to work with the
> | CMF?
>
> Not that I know of.
>
> | Oh, BTW, zope.org runs some revision of the Zope 2.6 branch.
> | Does the latest ZWiki work with that?
>
> That's more likely to cause trouble.

Again, the most likely useful way to do this is to make microsites.
wiki.zope.org, in this case. Sure, I'm volounteering, but not until
february. ;)

--
Lennart Regebro, Nuxeo http://www.nuxeo.com/
CPS Content Management http://www.nuxeo.org/
_______________________________________________
Zope-web maillist - Zope-web [at] zope
http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web

jim at zope

Oct 9, 2006, 1:47 PM

Post #16 of 32 (3757 views)
Permalink

Re: Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil. [In reply to]

Justizin wrote:
>> > Again, continuing with my naive thought experiments focussed on this
>> one
>> > issue, a zwiki upgrade, I would be thinking: (a) upgrading zwiki is not
>> > going to break other parts of the site, and it's certainly not going to
>> > require me to debug CMF; and (b) if I'm wrong, I've learned
>> something, I
>> > replace the old zwiki version and consider next steps.
>>
>> <shrug>
>>
>> I don't know. Does ZWiki have any tendrils in CMF? Has the version
>> of ZWiki used on zope.org been modified in any way to work with the
>> CMF? I don't know.
>
> Very good questions. We can always start with a diff -urN of the live
> zwiki version vs. the latest release, and/or the zwiki version it
> reports itself as being. I volunteer. :)

It reports itself as being ZWiki head. :(

>> Oh, BTW, zope.org runs some revision of the Zope 2.6 branch.
>> Does the latest ZWiki work with that?
>
> Yesh and why don't we look into moving to a modern version of Zope?

Because no one knows what would break. Because the installed software
has unknown versions. Because we don't have a repeatable installation.

> A
> good first step would be to build a checklist of what's holding us
> back.

I think the best thing to do at this point is to declare the current
zope.org implementation a failure and move on.

I'll repeat that our commercial cluster is not the right place to host
zope.org. We can't really give volunteers the access to do what they need to
do.

Jim

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sidnei at enfoldsystems

Oct 9, 2006, 1:48 PM

Post #17 of 32 (3728 views)
Permalink

Re: Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil. [In reply to]

| >b) you don't mind
| >staying up to 4am for several days.
|
| I do mind.

Uh, saturdays?

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andrew at sawdog

Oct 9, 2006, 1:54 PM

Post #18 of 32 (3744 views)
Permalink

Re: Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil. [In reply to]

On 10/9/06 4:47 PM, "Jim Fulton" <jim [at] zope> wrote:

>
> I think the best thing to do at this point is to declare the current
> zope.org implementation a failure and move on.
INSHO it has been known for quite sometime, but people are still trying to
make progress in the only environment we can.
>
> I'll repeat that our commercial cluster is not the right place to host
> zope.org. We can't really give volunteers the access to do what they need to
> do.
Please explain why? There is no commercial customers on the boxes zope.org
services are on, outside of the load balancer and squid, which are not
necessary to make progress until things can be moved.
>
> Jim
What's it going to take to move stuff? If someone anti's up a server, can
we move things immediately so this isn't an issue?

Andrew

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sidnei at enfoldsystems

Oct 9, 2006, 1:54 PM

Post #19 of 32 (3742 views)
Permalink

Re: Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil. [In reply to]

| Because no one knows what would break. Because the installed software
| has unknown versions. Because we don't have a repeatable installation.

Even if you knew the version, what would guarantee that nothing would
break without trying? The changelog? Good luck with that.

Someone needs to step in and try and see what breaks. I could be that
person. I could get it to the point where you have a Zope 2.9 instance
with no 'Broken because product is gone' and no broken imports. And
with a stock CMF skin. Someone would have to take it from there. Would
that be a reasonable offer?

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regebro at gmail

Oct 9, 2006, 2:00 PM

Post #20 of 32 (3730 views)
Permalink

Re: Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil. [In reply to]

On 10/9/06, Andrew Sawyers <andrew [at] sawdog> wrote:
> INSHO it has been known for quite sometime, but people are still trying to
> make progress in the only environment we can.

We can at this point only make progress by not trying to improve
zope.org, but by rebuilding it part by part in a microsite
organisation, where each site is separate and can be managed and
upgraded separately.

I truly believe that, and will continue to repreat it like a broken
record until everybody agrees an kills me from frustration. :)

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sidnei at enfoldsystems

Oct 9, 2006, 2:06 PM

Post #21 of 32 (3730 views)
Permalink

Re: Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil. [In reply to]

On Mon, Oct 09, 2006 at 11:00:19PM +0200, Lennart Regebro wrote:
| We can at this point only make progress by not trying to improve
| zope.org, but by rebuilding it part by part in a microsite
| organisation, where each site is separate and can be managed and
| upgraded separately.
|
| I truly believe that, and will continue to repreat it like a broken
| record until everybody agrees an kills me from frustration. :)

So, on your plan, how do you get the wikis from the current zope.org
to wiki.zope.org? Manually?

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michael at d2m

Oct 9, 2006, 2:07 PM

Post #22 of 32 (3743 views)
Permalink

Re: Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil. [In reply to]

Jim Fulton wrote:
>
> Oh, BTW, zope.org runs some revision of the Zope 2.6 branch.
> Does the latest ZWiki work with that?
>
> Michael Haubenwallner,
>
> Do you have any opinion on this? Should we try doing a ZWiki
> upgrade?
>

The pages are all open for download.
To anyone wanting to try an upgrade, start with Zope3-dev wiki:

- get a list of pagenames:
http://dev.zope.org/Zope3/FrontPage/pageNames

- download the source of each page:
http://dev.zope.org/Zope3/{PageName}/src

- feed it into you own copy of zwiki, experiment.

Michael

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andrew at sawdog

Oct 9, 2006, 2:08 PM

Post #23 of 32 (3747 views)
Permalink

Re: Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil. [In reply to]

On 10/9/06 5:00 PM, "Lennart Regebro" <regebro [at] gmail> wrote:

> On 10/9/06, Andrew Sawyers <andrew [at] sawdog> wrote:
>> INSHO it has been known for quite sometime, but people are still trying to
>> make progress in the only environment we can.
>
> We can at this point only make progress by not trying to improve
> zope.org, but by rebuilding it part by part in a microsite
> organisation, where each site is separate and can be managed and
> upgraded separately.
Someone was seeking a solution, the solution I gave was quick and simple to
answer the question being asked. Unless I'm volunteering, I won't turn
people off of trying to do *something*.
>
> I truly believe that, and will continue to repreat it like a broken
> record until everybody agrees an kills me from frustration. :)
I might be willing to do that :)

Seriously though, if all that is desired is a microsite, all we need to do
is setup a zwiki, point zwiki.zope.org to it. I believe Simon will do that?
What about existing content? If so, lets just do it.

Andrew

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jim at zope

Oct 9, 2006, 2:10 PM

Post #24 of 32 (3746 views)
Permalink

Re: Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil. [In reply to]

Andrew Sawyers wrote:
> On 10/9/06 4:47 PM, "Jim Fulton" <jim [at] zope> wrote:
>
>
>> I think the best thing to do at this point is to declare the current
>> zope.org implementation a failure and move on.
> INSHO it has been known for quite sometime, but people are still trying to
> make progress in the only environment we can.

Yes

>> I'll repeat that our commercial cluster is not the right place to host
>> zope.org. We can't really give volunteers the access to do what they need to
>> do.
> Please explain why? There is no commercial customers on the boxes zope.org
> services are on, outside of the load balancer and squid, which are not
> necessary to make progress until things can be moved.

Because to do what people want to do, they think they need full sudo.
I'm not sure this is necessary. For example, it's possible that
it would be enough for many interesting tasks to give people
the ability to sudo to the user zope. We could do that.

Giving root access to those boxes is not a risk that we're willing
to take.

> What's it going to take to move stuff? If someone anti's up a server, can
> we move things immediately so this isn't an issue?

Yes, and we may have a volunteer. We're talking to someone now.
It will, of course, take more than a server. The existing app
servers could probably replaced with a single modern server, although
we probably want two for redundancy. There's a storage server, and
an ldap server. There are squid caches and load balancers. Of course,
we don't have to reproduce exactly the same infrastructure. Then there's
network bandwidth, system administration, etc..

Jim

--
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jim at zope

Oct 9, 2006, 2:11 PM

Post #25 of 32 (3750 views)
Permalink

Re: Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil. [In reply to]

Lennart Regebro wrote:
> On 10/9/06, Andrew Sawyers <andrew [at] sawdog> wrote:
>> INSHO it has been known for quite sometime, but people are still
>> trying to
>> make progress in the only environment we can.
>
> We can at this point only make progress by not trying to improve
> zope.org, but by rebuilding it part by part in a microsite
> organisation, where each site is separate and can be managed and
> upgraded separately.

That is my feeling too.

Jim

--
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CTO (540) 361-1714 http://www.python.org
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