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Re: [Checkins] SVN: zc.buildout/ Moved to github

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jens at dataflake

Aug 18, 2012, 12:49 AM

Post #1 of 41 (316 views)
Permalink

Re: [Checkins] SVN: zc.buildout/ Moved to github

Hi Alex,

Please revert this checkin. You can't just take core software pieces from Zope Foundation-hosted repositories and move them somewhere else.

Thanks!

jens

On Aug 18, 2012, at 3:09 , J. Alexander Clark <cvs-admin [at] zope> wrote:

> Log message for revision 127519:
> Moved to github
>
>
> Changed:
> A zc.buildout/README_MOVED_TO_GITHUB.txt
> D zc.buildout/trunk/
>
> -=-
> Added: zc.buildout/README_MOVED_TO_GITHUB.txt
> ===================================================================
> --- zc.buildout/README_MOVED_TO_GITHUB.txt (rev 0)
> +++ zc.buildout/README_MOVED_TO_GITHUB.txt 2012-08-18 01:09:06 UTC (rev 127519)
> @@ -0,0 +1 @@
> +https://github.com/buildout/buildout/tree/1.6.x
>
> _______________________________________________
> checkins mailing list
> checkins [at] zope
> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/checkins

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hanno at hannosch

Aug 18, 2012, 1:21 AM

Post #2 of 41 (308 views)
Permalink

Re: [Checkins] SVN: zc.buildout/ Moved to github [In reply to]

Please note that development of buildout 2 happens on github since April this year. The buildout developers decided to do the move after Jim suggested it.

Legally you could see this move as a fork, but it was done by Jim and others. Alex just wanted to clarify the situation and also move the development of the stable branch into the same place.

Hanno

On 18.08.2012, at 09:49, Jens Vagelpohl <jens [at] dataflake> wrote:

> Hi Alex,
>
> Please revert this checkin. You can't just take core software pieces from Zope Foundation-hosted repositories and move them somewhere else.
>
> Thanks!
>
> jens
>
>
>
> On Aug 18, 2012, at 3:09 , J. Alexander Clark <cvs-admin [at] zope> wrote:
>
>> Log message for revision 127519:
>> Moved to github
>>
>>
>> Changed:
>> A zc.buildout/README_MOVED_TO_GITHUB.txt
>> D zc.buildout/trunk/
>>
>> -=-
>> Added: zc.buildout/README_MOVED_TO_GITHUB.txt
>> ===================================================================
>> --- zc.buildout/README_MOVED_TO_GITHUB.txt (rev 0)
>> +++ zc.buildout/README_MOVED_TO_GITHUB.txt 2012-08-18 01:09:06 UTC (rev 127519)
>> @@ -0,0 +1 @@
>> +https://github.com/buildout/buildout/tree/1.6.x
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> checkins mailing list
>> checkins [at] zope
>> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/checkins
>
> _______________________________________________
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> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev
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> (Related lists -
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jens at dataflake

Aug 18, 2012, 1:39 AM

Post #3 of 41 (309 views)
Permalink

Re: [Checkins] SVN: zc.buildout/ Moved to github [In reply to]

Hi Hanno,

Legally this must be a fork then and I'm not sure it can be released as official Zope Foundation software anymore if you make releases from GitHub. Reason: the ZF can no longer ascertain that only official ZF contributor agreement signers have modified code in the package, which is a core requirement for software released from Zope Foundation repositories/under Zope Foundation auspices.

Apart from those legal points which are still not entirely clear, since this can only be a fork I would say that last checkin must still be reverted. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be facetious, but until those legal questions are cleared up you should not make any checkins on svn.zope.org that basically "shut down" development of that package from there, such as deleting the trunk.

jens

On Aug 18, 2012, at 10:21 , Hanno Schlichting <hanno [at] hannosch> wrote:

> Please note that development of buildout 2 happens on github since April this year. The buildout developers decided to do the move after Jim suggested it.
>
> Legally you could see this move as a fork, but it was done by Jim and others. Alex just wanted to clarify the situation and also move the development of the stable branch into the same place.
>
> Hanno
>
> On 18.08.2012, at 09:49, Jens Vagelpohl <jens [at] dataflake> wrote:
>
>> Hi Alex,
>>
>> Please revert this checkin. You can't just take core software pieces from Zope Foundation-hosted repositories and move them somewhere else.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> jens
>>
>>
>>
>> On Aug 18, 2012, at 3:09 , J. Alexander Clark <cvs-admin [at] zope> wrote:
>>
>>> Log message for revision 127519:
>>> Moved to github
>>>
>>>
>>> Changed:
>>> A zc.buildout/README_MOVED_TO_GITHUB.txt
>>> D zc.buildout/trunk/
>>>
>>> -=-
>>> Added: zc.buildout/README_MOVED_TO_GITHUB.txt
>>> ===================================================================
>>> --- zc.buildout/README_MOVED_TO_GITHUB.txt (rev 0)
>>> +++ zc.buildout/README_MOVED_TO_GITHUB.txt 2012-08-18 01:09:06 UTC (rev 127519)
>>> @@ -0,0 +1 @@
>>> +https://github.com/buildout/buildout/tree/1.6.x
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> checkins mailing list
>>> checkins [at] zope
>>> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/checkins
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev [at] zope
>> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev
>> ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! **
>> (Related lists -
>> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
>> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )

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wichert at wiggy

Aug 18, 2012, 3:46 AM

Post #4 of 41 (310 views)
Permalink

Re: [Checkins] SVN: zc.buildout/ Moved to github [In reply to]

On 2012-8-18 10:39, Jens Vagelpohl wrote:
> Hi Hanno,
>
> Legally this must be a fork then and I'm not sure it can be released as official Zope Foundation software anymore if you make releases from GitHub.

Doesn't the name zc.buildout imply that it is a Zope Corp project
instead of a Zope Foundation one? The author has also never been listed
as the foundation but Jim personally, which seems to imply zc.buildout
never was Zope Foundation-owned software.

Wichert.

--
Wichert Akkerman <wichert [at] wiggy> It is simple to make things.
http://www.wiggy.net/ It is hard to make things simple.
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fdrake at acm

Aug 18, 2012, 5:10 AM

Post #5 of 41 (306 views)
Permalink

Re: [Checkins] SVN: zc.buildout/ Moved to github [In reply to]

On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 6:46 AM, Wichert Akkerman <wichert [at] wiggy> wrote:
> Doesn't the name zc.buildout imply that it is a Zope Corp project instead of
> a Zope Foundation one? The author has also never been listed as the
> foundation but Jim personally, which seems to imply zc.buildout never was
> Zope Foundation-owned software.

Jim *wrote* the software (and is therefore the author, regardless of who *owns*
it), and gave it to the Zope Foundation under his contributor's agreement.
Therefore, the Foundation and Zope Corporation both have equal ownership stakes.

-Fred

--
Fred L. Drake, Jr. <fdrake at acm.org>
"A person who won't read has no advantage over one who can't read."
--Samuel Langhorne Clemens
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jp at nexedi

Aug 18, 2012, 5:31 AM

Post #6 of 41 (310 views)
Permalink

Re: [Checkins] SVN: zc.buildout/ Moved to github [In reply to]

Hi,

I approve your position Jens.

Moving to git can make sense. Moving to github as primary platform does
not make sense.

Github is a proprietary platform. There is really no justification in
using a proprietary platform for open source projects, especially
considering that many open source alternatives exist and that nothing
prevents from using github as a mirror (for marketing purpose for example).

It is not only depressing to see open source communities not eating
their own dog food but also irresponsible.

It is irresponsible because Cloud / SaaS is far from reliable. Please
read this to get an idea.
(http://iwgcr.org/paris-university-and-telecom-paristech-publish-availability-ranking-of-world-cloud-computing/).
Service outages are not rare.

It is irresponsible because it sends a message to the market that open
source is not competitive (else open source communities would use it for
themselves). Many open source git hosting solutions do exist (incl.
gitorious, gitlab, indefero). Why not use them ?

On a more positive side, Nexedi is currently sponsoring the port of
Gitlab (http://gitlabhq.com/) open source git platform to SlapOS (
http://www.slapos.org/) open source Cloud. This means that there will in
a few days a python based, Zope based, buildout based and fully
resilient platform to host open source projects, with the ability to
manage copies of source code on servers all around the world in a true
community fashion.

And after reading today's message, I got so upset that I decided that
Nexedi will use SlapOS to offer hosting to any open source Zope
community project which believes enough in open source values to use
open source tools rather than proprietary ones. This will include free
support to any open source Zope project willing to manage its own SlapOS
platform rather rely on ours. Let us see if Zope community will be the
first or the last to eat its own dog food ;-).

Regards,

JPS.
Nexedi CEO

PS. I do not mind behind hated for using the word "irresponsible",
whooever took the decision to use github. I do mean it.

Le 18/08/2012 09:49, Jens Vagelpohl a �crit :
> Hi Alex,
>
> Please revert this checkin. You can't just take core software pieces from Zope Foundation-hosted repositories and move them somewhere else.
>
> Thanks!
>
> jens
>
>
>
> On Aug 18, 2012, at 3:09 , J. Alexander Clark<cvs-admin [at] zope> wrote:
>
>> Log message for revision 127519:
>> Moved to github
>>
>>
>> Changed:
>> A zc.buildout/README_MOVED_TO_GITHUB.txt
>> D zc.buildout/trunk/
>>
>> -=-
>> Added: zc.buildout/README_MOVED_TO_GITHUB.txt
>> ===================================================================
>> --- zc.buildout/README_MOVED_TO_GITHUB.txt (rev 0)
>> +++ zc.buildout/README_MOVED_TO_GITHUB.txt 2012-08-18 01:09:06 UTC (rev 127519)
>> @@ -0,0 +1 @@
>> +https://github.com/buildout/buildout/tree/1.6.x
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> checkins mailing list
>> checkins [at] zope
>> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/checkins
> _______________________________________________
> Zope-Dev maillist -Zope-Dev [at] zope
> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev
> ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! **
> (Related lists -
> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )

chris at simplistix

Aug 18, 2012, 6:33 AM

Post #7 of 41 (309 views)
Permalink

Re: [Checkins] SVN: zc.buildout/ Moved to github [In reply to]

Hi Jens,

On 18/08/2012 09:39, Jens Vagelpohl wrote:
> Legally this must be a fork then and I'm not sure it can be released as official Zope Foundation software anymore if you make releases from GitHub. Reason: the ZF can no longer ascertain that only official ZF contributor agreement signers have modified code in the package,

Actually, with the cryptographically signed nature of git commits, I'm
not sure this is true...

> which is a core requirement for software released from Zope Foundation repositories/under Zope Foundation auspices.

Well, I guess releases would be made outside of these auspices then,
whatever that means... The license looks the same, the same people are
doing the development.

Quite frankly, given the hard time we have getting people to help out,
anything that eases that can only be a good thing. Chris McDonough and
the rest of the Pyramid folk seem happy enough with the GitHub model,
and I've found it's made life very much easier for the python-excel
project and the other packages I maintain.

> Apart from those legal points which are still not entirely clear, since this can only be a fork I would say that last checkin must still be reverted. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be facetious, but until those legal questions are cleared up you should not make any checkins on svn.zope.org that basically "shut down" development of that package from there, such as deleting the trunk.

No history has been destroyed, it's just a clear marker of where active
development is happening. That said, I don't have a strong opinion on
this, I'd suggest Jim just makes the call...

cheers,

Chris

--
Simplistix - Content Management, Batch Processing & Python Consulting
- http://www.simplistix.co.uk
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chris at simplistix

Aug 18, 2012, 6:35 AM

Post #8 of 41 (308 views)
Permalink

Re: [Checkins] SVN: zc.buildout/ Moved to github [In reply to]

I'm not going to dignify this with a fuller response other than to say
that Jean-Paul Smets' entire email is nothing but bullshit written to
try and promote an inferior competing product ;-)

Chris

On 18/08/2012 13:31, Jean-Paul Smets wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I approve your position Jens.
>
> Moving to git can make sense. Moving to github as primary platform does
> not make sense.
>
> Github is a proprietary platform. There is really no justification in
> using a proprietary platform for open source projects, especially
> considering that many open source alternatives exist and that nothing
> prevents from using github as a mirror (for marketing purpose for example).
>
> It is not only depressing to see open source communities not eating
> their own dog food but also irresponsible.
>
> It is irresponsible because Cloud / SaaS is far from reliable. Please
> read this to get an idea.
> (http://iwgcr.org/paris-university-and-telecom-paristech-publish-availability-ranking-of-world-cloud-computing/).
> Service outages are not rare.
>
> It is irresponsible because it sends a message to the market that open
> source is not competitive (else open source communities would use it for
> themselves). Many open source git hosting solutions do exist (incl.
> gitorious, gitlab, indefero). Why not use them ?
>
> On a more positive side, Nexedi is currently sponsoring the port of
> Gitlab (http://gitlabhq.com/) open source git platform to SlapOS (
> http://www.slapos.org/) open source Cloud. This means that there will in
> a few days a python based, Zope based, buildout based and fully
> resilient platform to host open source projects, with the ability to
> manage copies of source code on servers all around the world in a true
> community fashion.
>
> And after reading today's message, I got so upset that I decided that
> Nexedi will use SlapOS to offer hosting to any open source Zope
> community project which believes enough in open source values to use
> open source tools rather than proprietary ones. This will include free
> support to any open source Zope project willing to manage its own SlapOS
> platform rather rely on ours. Let us see if Zope community will be the
> first or the last to eat its own dog food ;-).
>
> Regards,
>
> JPS.
> Nexedi CEO
>
> PS. I do not mind behind hated for using the word "irresponsible",
> whooever took the decision to use github. I do mean it.
>
> Le 18/08/2012 09:49, Jens Vagelpohl a �crit :
>> Hi Alex,
>>
>> Please revert this checkin. You can't just take core software pieces from Zope Foundation-hosted repositories and move them somewhere else.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> jens
>>
>>
>>
>> On Aug 18, 2012, at 3:09 , J. Alexander Clark<cvs-admin [at] zope> wrote:
>>
>>> Log message for revision 127519:
>>> Moved to github
>>>
>>>
>>> Changed:
>>> A zc.buildout/README_MOVED_TO_GITHUB.txt
>>> D zc.buildout/trunk/
>>>
>>> -=-
>>> Added: zc.buildout/README_MOVED_TO_GITHUB.txt
>>> ===================================================================
>>> --- zc.buildout/README_MOVED_TO_GITHUB.txt (rev 0)
>>> +++ zc.buildout/README_MOVED_TO_GITHUB.txt 2012-08-18 01:09:06 UTC (rev 127519)
>>> @@ -0,0 +1 @@
>>> +https://github.com/buildout/buildout/tree/1.6.x
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> checkins mailing list
>>> checkins [at] zope
>>> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/checkins
>> _______________________________________________
>> Zope-Dev maillist -Zope-Dev [at] zope
>> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev
>> ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! **
>> (Related lists -
>> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
>> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service.
> For more information please visit http://www.symanteccloud.com
> ______________________________________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

--
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- http://www.simplistix.co.uk
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charlie.clark at clark-consulting

Aug 18, 2012, 6:44 AM

Post #9 of 41 (310 views)
Permalink

Re: [Checkins] SVN: zc.buildout/ Moved to github [In reply to]

Am 18.08.2012, 15:35 Uhr, schrieb Chris Withers <chris [at] simplistix>:

> I'm not going to dignify this with a fuller response other than to say
> that Jean-Paul Smets' entire email is nothing but bullshit written to
> try and promote an inferior competing product.

The issues of hosting and vcs were aired a few months ago and should be
considered separately.

The T&C's of any of the these products should be read carefully and I, for
one, do not like the indemnification clause at Github. I would, therefore,
agree with Jean-Paul in this respect.

I agree with Jens, that new work should be considered as a fork. It
currently feels very much cloak & dagger.

Charlie
--
Charlie Clark
Managing Director
Clark Consulting & Research
German Office
Kronenstr. 27a
Düsseldorf
D- 40217
Tel: +49-211-600-3657
Mobile: +49-178-782-6226
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regebro at gmail

Aug 18, 2012, 6:46 AM

Post #10 of 41 (308 views)
Permalink

Re: [Checkins] SVN: zc.buildout/ Moved to github [In reply to]

On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 10:39 AM, Jens Vagelpohl <jens [at] dataflake> wrote:
> Legally this must be a fork then and I'm not sure it can be released as official Zope Foundation software anymore if you make releases from GitHub. Reason: the ZF can no longer ascertain that only official ZF contributor agreement signers have modified code in the package, which is a core requirement for software released from Zope Foundation repositories/under Zope Foundation auspices.

Is this because of the support for merging pull requests? Is that
really legally different than a contributor making a merge from a
patch?

//Lennart
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jens at dataflake

Aug 18, 2012, 12:18 PM

Post #11 of 41 (299 views)
Permalink

Re: [Checkins] SVN: zc.buildout/ Moved to github [In reply to]

On Aug 18, 2012, at 12:46 , Wichert Akkerman <wichert [at] wiggy> wrote:

> On 2012-8-18 10:39, Jens Vagelpohl wrote:
>> Hi Hanno,
>>
>> Legally this must be a fork then and I'm not sure it can be released as official Zope Foundation software anymore if you make releases from GitHub.
>
> Doesn't the name zc.buildout imply that it is a Zope Corp project instead of a Zope Foundation one? The author has also never been listed as the foundation but Jim personally, which seems to imply zc.buildout never was Zope Foundation-owned software.

Hi Wichert,

Clearly, Jim is the "father" of that software and it has been developed in large part for Zope Corporation, hence the name "zc.buildout". However, that's not all there is to "ownership" of code on svn.zope.org.

If you read the contributor agreements[1] all committers to svn.zope.org signed, submitting code to svn.zope.org also meant you entered into a legal agreement with the Zope Foundation regarding that code. Code submitted to svn.zope.org is from that moment on half-owned by the Zope Foundation. That means you cannot unilaterally just declare code removed from svn.zope.org, which is my point about the last checkin to the zc.buildout package. Everyone is free to fork code. But removing stuff from svn.zope.org requires approval from you as the original owner *and* the ZF as legal co-owner of anything stored on svn.zope.org.

Caveat: I'm not a lawyer, that's just how I interpret the contributor agreement.

jens

[1] http://foundation.zope.org/agreements/ZopeFoundation_Committer_Agreement

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jens at dataflake

Aug 18, 2012, 12:23 PM

Post #12 of 41 (298 views)
Permalink

Re: [Checkins] SVN: zc.buildout/ Moved to github [In reply to]

On Aug 18, 2012, at 14:31 , Jean-Paul Smets <jp [at] nexedi> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I approve your position Jens.
>
> Moving to git can make sense. Moving to github as primary platform does not make sense.

Hi Jean-Paul,

Technical pros and cons are valid arguments, correct, but that wasn't my point here. I'm trying to look at the contractual issues involved, that's all.

I'm not saying "only platform X is acceptable", just that right now I only have proof that our self-hosted Subversion repositories on svn.zope.org appear to meet all the legal requirements laid out by the contributor agreements and the role of the Zope Foundation as the guard of these contributions as well as contributors' private data held by the Zope Foundation.

jens

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jens at dataflake

Aug 18, 2012, 12:36 PM

Post #13 of 41 (296 views)
Permalink

Re: [Checkins] SVN: zc.buildout/ Moved to github [In reply to]

On Aug 18, 2012, at 15:46 , Lennart Regebro <regebro [at] gmail> wrote:

> On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 10:39 AM, Jens Vagelpohl <jens [at] dataflake> wrote:
>> Legally this must be a fork then and I'm not sure it can be released as official Zope Foundation software anymore if you make releases from GitHub. Reason: the ZF can no longer ascertain that only official ZF contributor agreement signers have modified code in the package, which is a core requirement for software released from Zope Foundation repositories/under Zope Foundation auspices.
>
> Is this because of the support for merging pull requests? Is that
> really legally different than a contributor making a merge from a
> patch?

Hi Lennart,

The contributor agreement requires you as the contributor to be able to enter into the contract with the Zope Foundation transferring one half ownership to the Zope Foundation. You can only enter into this contract if you own (as in "wrote") the code yourself - you cannot assign ownership to someone else for something you don't fully own.

The goal of these contractual requirements is to make sure software stored in the Zope Foundation is as "clean" as possible from an ownership standpoint. People who use code from svn.zope.org have a reasonable assurance that no third party will show up on your doorstep demanding money or license fees for code that third party claims to own.

I've just recently seen what can happen for projects not following this kind of strict policy: The python-ldap package developers are unable to e.g. assign a new license to their code because since they don't hold any ownership and would need to ask every single developer who ever touched that code - an impossible task. For us that kind of issue does not arise.

jens

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regebro at gmail

Aug 18, 2012, 12:46 PM

Post #14 of 41 (299 views)
Permalink

Re: [Checkins] SVN: zc.buildout/ Moved to github [In reply to]

On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 9:36 PM, Jens Vagelpohl <jens [at] dataflake> wrote:
>
> On Aug 18, 2012, at 15:46 , Lennart Regebro <regebro [at] gmail> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 10:39 AM, Jens Vagelpohl <jens [at] dataflake> wrote:
>>> Legally this must be a fork then and I'm not sure it can be released as official Zope Foundation software anymore if you make releases from GitHub. Reason: the ZF can no longer ascertain that only official ZF contributor agreement signers have modified code in the package, which is a core requirement for software released from Zope Foundation repositories/under Zope Foundation auspices.
>>
>> Is this because of the support for merging pull requests? Is that
>> really legally different than a contributor making a merge from a
>> patch?
>
> Hi Lennart,
>
> The contributor agreement requires you as the contributor to be able to enter into the contract with the Zope Foundation transferring one half ownership to the Zope Foundation. You can only enter into this contract if you own (as in "wrote") the code yourself - you cannot assign ownership to someone else for something you don't fully own.
>
> The goal of these contractual requirements is to make sure software stored in the Zope Foundation is as "clean" as possible from an ownership standpoint. People who use code from svn.zope.org have a reasonable assurance that no third party will show up on your doorstep demanding money or license fees for code that third party claims to own.
>
> I've just recently seen what can happen for projects not following this kind of strict policy: The python-ldap package developers are unable to e.g. assign a new license to their code because since they don't hold any ownership and would need to ask every single developer who ever touched that code - an impossible task. For us that kind of issue does not arise.

Yes, but my question is why this changes with github.

//Lennart
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tseaver at palladion

Aug 18, 2012, 2:03 PM

Post #15 of 41 (297 views)
Permalink

Re: [Checkins] SVN: zc.buildout/ Moved to github [In reply to]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 08/18/2012 03:46 PM, Lennart Regebro wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 9:36 PM, Jens Vagelpohl <jens [at] dataflake>
> wrote:
>>
>> The contributor agreement requires you as the contributor to be able
>> to enter into the contract with the Zope Foundation transferring one
>> half ownership to the Zope Foundation. You can only enter into this
>> contract if you own (as in "wrote") the code yourself - you cannot
>> assign ownership to someone else for something you don't fully own.
>>
>> The goal of these contractual requirements is to make sure software
>> stored in the Zope Foundation is as "clean" as possible from an
>> ownership standpoint. People who use code from svn.zope.org have a
>> reasonable assurance that no third party will show up on your
>> doorstep demanding money or license fees for code that third party
>> claims to own.
>>
>> I've just recently seen what can happen for projects not following
>> this kind of strict policy: The python-ldap package developers are
>> unable to e.g. assign a new license to their code because since they
>> don't hold any ownership and would need to ask every single
>> developer who ever touched that code - an impossible task. For us
>> that kind of issue does not arise.
>
> Yes, but my question is why this changes with github.

Because the ability to check into svn.zope.org is based on a "chain of
custody" managed by the ZF (web account, verified e-mail address, and SSH
key). J. Random Hacker's account on Github has no such chain.

Tres.
- --
===================================================================
Tres Seaver +1 540-429-0999 tseaver [at] palladion
Palladion Software "Excellence by Design" http://palladion.com
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ucQAnRpbKzABEIXDrDg5vsgJcCxz7DNX
=0tGk
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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tseaver at palladion

Aug 18, 2012, 2:05 PM

Post #16 of 41 (299 views)
Permalink

Re: [Checkins] SVN: zc.buildout/ Moved to github [In reply to]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 08/18/2012 03:18 PM, Jens Vagelpohl wrote:
> But removing stuff from svn.zope.org requires approval from you as
> the original owner *and* the ZF as legal co-owner of anything stored
> on svn.zope.org.

Actually, it requires the permission of the ZF. The original owner has
no more say in it than any other contributor: her rights are purely to
incorporate forks (of her contributions) into non-ZPL'ed software.

Tres.
- --
===================================================================
Tres Seaver +1 540-429-0999 tseaver [at] palladion
Palladion Software "Excellence by Design" http://palladion.com
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux)
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6+UAoKf8hEYjQOTwfzGmHGMkjZS1bgNy
=pWcR
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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aclark at aclark

Aug 18, 2012, 3:01 PM

Post #17 of 41 (299 views)
Permalink

Re: [Checkins] SVN: zc.buildout/ Moved to github [In reply to]

Hi Jens,

On 2012-08-18 07:49:59 +0000, Jens Vagelpohl said:

> Hi Alex,
>
> Please revert this checkin. You can't just take core software pieces
> from Zope Foundation-hosted repositories and move them somewhere else.
>
> Thanks!

I think you are confused. I would suggest you ask Jim Fulton about it,
as he moved Buildout to GitHub months ago. Both 1.6.x and 2.x are under
active development there.

Further, I committed the *message* about the move and I removed trunk
to avoid confusion, I didn't personally move anything (Jim moved 2.x
and Domen Kožar moved trunk to the 1.6.x branch).

Also please see the distutils-sig list for more information about
recent zc.buildout 1.6.x development.

Alex

>
> jens
>
>
>
> On Aug 18, 2012, at 3:09 , J. Alexander Clark <cvs-admin [at] zope> wrote:
>
>> Log message for revision 127519:
>> Moved to github
>>
>>
>> Changed:
>> A zc.buildout/README_MOVED_TO_GITHUB.txt
>> D zc.buildout/trunk/
>>
>> -=-
>> Added: zc.buildout/README_MOVED_TO_GITHUB.txt
>> ===================================================================
>> --- zc.buildout/README_MOVED_TO_GITHUB.txt (rev 0)
>> +++ zc.buildout/README_MOVED_TO_GITHUB.txt 2012-08-18 01:09:06 UTC (rev 127519)
>> @@ -0,0 +1 @@
>> +https://github.com/buildout/buildout/tree/1.6.x
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> checkins mailing list
>> checkins [at] zope
>> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/checkins
>
> _______________________________________________
> Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev [at] zope
> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev
> ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! **
> (Related lists -
> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )

--
Alex Clark · http://pythonpackages.com

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aclark at aclark

Aug 18, 2012, 3:06 PM

Post #18 of 41 (296 views)
Permalink

Re: [Checkins] SVN: zc.buildout/ Moved to github [In reply to]

Hi

On 2012-08-18 22:01:51 +0000, Alex Clark said:

> Hi Jens,
>
> On 2012-08-18 07:49:59 +0000, Jens Vagelpohl said:
>
>> Hi Alex,
>>
>> Please revert this checkin. You can't just take core software pieces
>> from Zope Foundation-hosted repositories and move them somewhere else.
>>
>> Thanks!
>
>
>
> I think you are confused. I would suggest you ask Jim Fulton about it,
> as he moved Buildout to GitHub months ago. Both 1.6.x and 2.x are under
> active development there.
>
>
> Further, I committed the *message* about the move and I removed trunk
> to avoid confusion, I didn't personally move anything (Jim moved 2.x
> and Domen Kožar moved trunk to the 1.6.x branch).
>
>
> Also please see the distutils-sig list for more information about
> recent zc.buildout 1.6.x development.

And… sorry. Using a new client and I missed the ongoing thread :-)

Alex

>
>
>
> Alex
>
>
>
>
>>
>> jens
>>
>>
>>
>> On Aug 18, 2012, at 3:09 , J. Alexander Clark <cvs-admin [at] zope> wrote:
>>
>>> Log message for revision 127519:
>>> Moved to github
>>>
>>>
>>> Changed:
>>> A zc.buildout/README_MOVED_TO_GITHUB.txt
>>> D zc.buildout/trunk/
>>>
>>> -=-
>>> Added: zc.buildout/README_MOVED_TO_GITHUB.txt
>>> ===================================================================
>>> --- zc.buildout/README_MOVED_TO_GITHUB.txt (rev 0)
>>> +++ zc.buildout/README_MOVED_TO_GITHUB.txt 2012-08-18 01:09:06 UTC (rev 127519)
>>> @@ -0,0 +1 @@
>>> +https://github.com/buildout/buildout/tree/1.6.x
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> checkins mailing list
>>> checkins [at] zope
>>> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/checkins
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev [at] zope
>> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev
>> ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! **
>> (Related lists -
>> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
>> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )

--
Alex Clark · http://pythonpackages.com

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regebro at gmail

Aug 18, 2012, 6:24 PM

Post #19 of 41 (296 views)
Permalink

Re: [Checkins] SVN: zc.buildout/ Moved to github [In reply to]

On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 11:03 PM, Tres Seaver <tseaver [at] palladion> wrote:
> Because the ability to check into svn.zope.org is based on a "chain of
> custody" managed by the ZF (web account, verified e-mail address, and SSH
> key). J. Random Hacker's account on Github has no such chain.

Sure, but Random J Hacker shouldn't have write permission to the
repository, so I don't understand why that makes a difference.

//Lennart
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aclark at aclark

Aug 18, 2012, 6:58 PM

Post #20 of 41 (299 views)
Permalink

Re: [Checkins] SVN: zc.buildout/ Moved to github [In reply to]

Hi,

On 2012-08-19 01:24:31 +0000, Lennart Regebro said:

> On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 11:03 PM, Tres Seaver <tseaver [at] palladion> wrote:
>> Because the ability to check into svn.zope.org is based on a "chain of
>> custody" managed by the ZF (web account, verified e-mail address, and SSH
>> key). J. Random Hacker's account on Github has no such chain.
>
> Sure, but Random J Hacker shouldn't have write permission to the
> repository, so I don't understand why that makes a difference.

IANAL but from my perspective the legitimate issue here is that Domen
Kožar has not signed the Zope Contributor's Agreement, but Jim has
added him to the Buildout organization on GitHub and he has been
committing fixes. If I were the ZF, I would either:

- Make sure everyone in any ZF organizations on GitHub (e.g. buildout)
has signed the contributor agreement, or
- Declare that nothing on GitHub (or at least in the buildout
organization) is a valid contribution to "the work".

In either case, AFAICT zc.buildout development has stopped on
svn.zope.org and started on GitHub so let us let the commit stand to
reflect this real world circumstance.

Alex

> //Lennart
> _______________________________________________
> Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev [at] zope
> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev
> ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! **
> (Related lists -
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> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )

--
Alex Clark · http://pythonpackages.com

jens at dataflake

Aug 18, 2012, 11:49 PM

Post #21 of 41 (295 views)
Permalink

Re: [Checkins] SVN: zc.buildout/ Moved to github [In reply to]

On Aug 18, 2012, at 21:46 , Lennart Regebro <regebro [at] gmail> wrote:

> Yes, but my question is why this changes with github.

GitHub is a third party infrastructure run by other people. I cannot ascertain how well it enforces our requirement that all checkins must be from signed contributors only. Furthermore, I cannot ascertain that private contributor data remains private (email addresses etc). And since it becomes ever easier to accept code from unknown sources (e.g. pull requests) legal code ownership becomes an issue again.

jens

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jens at dataflake

Aug 18, 2012, 11:51 PM

Post #22 of 41 (296 views)
Permalink

Re: [Checkins] SVN: zc.buildout/ Moved to github [In reply to]

On Aug 19, 2012, at 0:01 , Alex Clark <aclark [at] aclark> wrote:

> Hi Jens,
>
> On 2012-08-18 07:49:59 +0000, Jens Vagelpohl said:
>
>> Hi Alex,
>> Please revert this checkin. You can't just take core software pieces from Zope Foundation-hosted repositories and move them somewhere else.
>> Thanks!
>
> I think you are confused. I would suggest you ask Jim Fulton about it, as he moved Buildout to GitHub months ago. Both 1.6.x and 2.x are under active development there.

Again, there's a confusion about perceived and legal ownership.

jens

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jens at dataflake

Aug 19, 2012, 12:00 AM

Post #23 of 41 (294 views)
Permalink

Re: [Checkins] SVN: zc.buildout/ Moved to github [In reply to]

On Aug 19, 2012, at 3:58 , Alex Clark <aclark [at] aclark> wrote:

> IANAL but from my perspective the legitimate issue here is that Domen Ko�ar has not signed the Zope Contributor's Agreement, but Jim has added him to the Buildout organization on GitHub and he has been committing fixes. If I were the ZF, I would either:
>
> - Make sure everyone in any ZF organizations on GitHub (e.g. buildout) has signed the contributor agreement, or
> - Declare that nothing on GitHub (or at least in the buildout organization) is a valid contribution to "the work".
>
> In either case, AFAICT zc.buildout development has stopped on svn.zope.org and started on GitHub so let us let the commit stand to reflect this real world circumstance.

Right now it can only be the second option. There's no "ZF organization" on GitHub. Legally, the zc.buildout fork now existing on GitHub is independent of the ZF, and the developers maintaining it are acting independent of the ZF. Don't get me wrong, they have every right to do so. But right now they cannot claim their software as being part of the Zope Foundation set of software. The same is true for all packages forked onto GitHub that were maintained on svn.zope.org before.

This may change in the future should the ZF one day embrace GitHub as the canonical repository, but that hasn't happened at this point.

jens

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optilude+lists at gmail

Aug 19, 2012, 12:06 AM

Post #24 of 41 (299 views)
Permalink

Re: [Checkins] SVN: zc.buildout/ Moved to github [In reply to]

On 19 August 2012 08:00, Jens Vagelpohl <jens [at] dataflake> wrote:

>
> On Aug 19, 2012, at 3:58 , Alex Clark <aclark [at] aclark> wrote:
>
> > IANAL but from my perspective the legitimate issue here is that Domen
> Kožar has not signed the Zope Contributor's Agreement, but Jim has added
> him to the Buildout organization on GitHub and he has been committing
> fixes. If I were the ZF, I would either:
> >
> > - Make sure everyone in any ZF organizations on GitHub (e.g. buildout)
> has signed the contributor agreement, or
> > - Declare that nothing on GitHub (or at least in the buildout
> organization) is a valid contribution to "the work".
> >
> > In either case, AFAICT zc.buildout development has stopped on
> svn.zope.org and started on GitHub so let us let the commit stand to
> reflect this real world circumstance.
>
> Right now it can only be the second option. There's no "ZF organization"
> on GitHub. Legally, the zc.buildout fork now existing on GitHub is
> independent of the ZF, and the developers maintaining it are acting
> independent of the ZF. Don't get me wrong, they have every right to do so.
> But right now they cannot claim their software as being part of the Zope
> Foundation set of software. The same is true for all packages forked onto
> GitHub that were maintained on svn.zope.org before.
>

It may be useful for the sake of this thread to articulate why the people
who did fork it and move it to GitHub might benefit from the above.

Martin

regebro at gmail

Aug 19, 2012, 1:17 AM

Post #25 of 41 (295 views)
Permalink

Re: [Checkins] SVN: zc.buildout/ Moved to github [In reply to]

On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 8:49 AM, Jens Vagelpohl <jens [at] dataflake> wrote:
>
> On Aug 18, 2012, at 21:46 , Lennart Regebro <regebro [at] gmail> wrote:
>
>> Yes, but my question is why this changes with github.
>
> GitHub is a third party infrastructure run by other people. I cannot ascertain how well it enforces our requirement that all checkins must be from signed contributors only.

I have to say that I find it to be without any reasonable doubt
without question that you can only wrote to a repository if you have
write access. Questioning this is to me somewhat surprising, and we
might as well claim that we can't ascertain how well the current SVN
server enforces our requirements, as we don't know what undiscovered
security holes it might have.

> Furthermore, I cannot ascertain that private contributor data remains private (email addresses etc).

Is this really a requirement? Why is this a requirement? All you need
to enter at github is an email (which in practice is all we can verify
in ZF as well, as all communication is by email). Why does this email
address have to remain private?

> And since it becomes ever easier to accept code from unknown sources (e.g. pull requests) legal code ownership becomes an issue again.

And that returns me to my first question: Is it really legally
different for a contributor to accept a pull request from a
non-contributor compared with a contributor merging a patch from a
non-contributor?

//Lennart
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