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zope.interface 4.0.0 considered annoying.

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jim at zope

May 19, 2012, 9:12 AM

Post #1 of 13 (385 views)
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zope.interface 4.0.0 considered annoying.

The declaration-syntax warnings in the zope.interface 4.0.0 are
annoying and mostly pointless.

There will be enough pain in porting applications to Python 3,
avoiding the surprise of having to use a different
interface-declaration syntax will not be of any consequence.

While the deprecation warning may provide some tiny benefit,
the annoyance, especially for applications or libraries that still
support Python 2.5 far outweights the benefit.

I propose that these deprecation warnings be removed.

Jim

--
Jim Fulton
http://www.linkedin.com/in/jimfulton
Jerky is better than bacon! http://www.dublinstore.com/
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tseaver at palladion

May 19, 2012, 2:59 PM

Post #2 of 13 (369 views)
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Re: zope.interface 4.0.0 considered annoying. [In reply to]

On 05/19/2012 12:12 PM, Jim Fulton wrote:
> The declaration-syntax warnings in the zope.interface 4.0.0 are
> annoying and mostly pointless.
>
> There will be enough pain in porting applications to Python 3,
> avoiding the surprise of having to use a different
> interface-declaration syntax will not be of any consequence.
>
> While the deprecation warning may provide some tiny benefit, the
> annoyance, especially for applications or libraries that still support
> Python 2.5 far outweights the benefit.

We're in an odd spot: the Python3 support for zope.interface mostly
works, but the class advice bits (implements, implementsOnly,
classProvides) fail silently under Python3 before 4.0.0: they literally
have no effect due to changes in class initialization machinery.
zope.interface 4.0.0 changes those silent failures into exceptions (which
is what I thought you were going to complain about).

Note as well that zope.interface 4.0.0 doesn't support Python 2.5 any longer.

> I propose that these deprecation warnings be removed.

I can do that, if that is the consensus.

Tres.
--
===================================================================
Tres Seaver +1 540-429-0999 tseaver [at] palladion
Palladion Software "Excellence by Design" http://palladion.com

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jim at zope

May 19, 2012, 4:23 PM

Post #3 of 13 (371 views)
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Re: zope.interface 4.0.0 considered annoying. [In reply to]

On Sat, May 19, 2012 at 5:59 PM, Tres Seaver <tseaver [at] palladion> wrote:
> On 05/19/2012 12:12 PM, Jim Fulton wrote:
>> The declaration-syntax warnings in the zope.interface 4.0.0 are
>> annoying and mostly pointless.
>>
>> There will be enough pain in porting applications to Python 3,
>> avoiding the surprise of having to use a different
>> interface-declaration syntax will not be of any consequence.
>>
>> While the deprecation warning may provide some tiny benefit, the
>> annoyance, especially for applications or libraries that still support
>> Python 2.5 far outweights the benefit.
>
> We're in an odd spot: the Python3 support for zope.interface mostly
> works, but the class advice bits (implements, implementsOnly,
> classProvides) fail silently under Python3 before 4.0.0: they literally
> have no effect due to changes in class initialization machinery.
> zope.interface 4.0.0 changes those silent failures into exceptions (which
> is what I thought you were going to complain about).

I'd forgotten the fail silently bit. Can't we make the fail loudly
for Python 3?

Jim

--
Jim Fulton
http://www.linkedin.com/in/jimfulton
Jerky is better than bacon! http://www.dublinstore.com/
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tseaver at palladion

May 19, 2012, 9:08 PM

Post #4 of 13 (368 views)
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Re: zope.interface 4.0.0 considered annoying. [In reply to]

On 05/19/2012 07:23 PM, Jim Fulton wrote:
> On Sat, May 19, 2012 at 5:59 PM, Tres Seaver <tseaver [at] palladion>
> wrote:
>> On 05/19/2012 12:12 PM, Jim Fulton wrote:
>>> The declaration-syntax warnings in the zope.interface 4.0.0 are
>>> annoying and mostly pointless.
>>>
>>> There will be enough pain in porting applications to Python 3,
>>> avoiding the surprise of having to use a different
>>> interface-declaration syntax will not be of any consequence.
>>>
>>> While the deprecation warning may provide some tiny benefit, the
>>> annoyance, especially for applications or libraries that still
>>> support Python 2.5 far outweights the benefit.
>>
>> We're in an odd spot: the Python3 support for zope.interface
>> mostly works, but the class advice bits (implements,
>> implementsOnly, classProvides) fail silently under Python3 before
>> 4.0.0: they literally have no effect due to changes in class
>> initialization machinery. zope.interface 4.0.0 changes those silent
>> failures into exceptions (which is what I thought you were going to
>> complain about).
>
> I'd forgotten the fail silently bit. Can't we make the fail loudly
> for Python 3?

They already do: 4.0.0 makes them exceptions under Python3: that fact
was actually my rationale for the warnings under Python2, to allow folks
to find and remediate them before porting.

I will release a 4.0.1 silencing the warnings unless somebody speaks up
in their favor.

Tres.
--
===================================================================
Tres Seaver +1 540-429-0999 tseaver [at] palladion
Palladion Software "Excellence by Design" http://palladion.com

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jim at zope

May 19, 2012, 9:47 PM

Post #5 of 13 (367 views)
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Re: zope.interface 4.0.0 considered annoying. [In reply to]

On Sun, May 20, 2012 at 12:08 AM, Tres Seaver <tseaver [at] palladion> wrote:
> On 05/19/2012 07:23 PM, Jim Fulton wrote:

...

>> I'd forgotten the fail silently bit. Can't we make the fail loudly
>> for Python 3?
>
> They already do: 4.0.0 makes them exceptions under Python3: that fact
> was actually my rationale for the warnings under Python2, to allow folks
> to find and remediate them before porting.

That's reasonable. I'd probably have had the same inclination -- until
I experienced the result. :)

> I will release a 4.0.1 silencing the warnings unless somebody speaks up
> in their favor.

Thanks.

Jim

--
Jim Fulton
http://www.linkedin.com/in/jimfulton
Jerky is better than bacon! http://www.dublinstore.com/
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regebro at gmail

May 20, 2012, 1:28 PM

Post #6 of 13 (354 views)
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Re: zope.interface 4.0.0 considered annoying. [In reply to]

On Sun, May 20, 2012 at 6:08 AM, Tres Seaver <tseaver [at] palladion> wrote:
> I will release a 4.0.1 silencing the warnings unless somebody speaks up
> in their favor.

We should make sure we have 2to3 fixers for everything change as well.
I added some fixers, but it's so long ago I'm not sure all changes are
covered. But with fixers the warnings aren't very problematic, as
fixing the loud failures is just a matter of running the fixers.

//Lennart
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jim at zope

May 20, 2012, 1:42 PM

Post #7 of 13 (353 views)
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Re: zope.interface 4.0.0 considered annoying. [In reply to]

On Sun, May 20, 2012 at 4:28 PM, Lennart Regebro <regebro [at] gmail> wrote:
> On Sun, May 20, 2012 at 6:08 AM, Tres Seaver <tseaver [at] palladion> wrote:
>> I will release a 4.0.1 silencing the warnings unless somebody speaks up
>> in their favor.
>
> We should make sure we have 2to3 fixers for everything change as well.
> I added some fixers, but it's so long ago I'm not sure all changes are
> covered. But with fixers the warnings aren't very problematic, as
> fixing the loud failures is just a matter of running the fixers.

Except that most of us aren't going to use 2to3, except for an initial
stab at porting to 2&3.

Jim

--
Jim Fulton
http://www.linkedin.com/in/jimfulton
Jerky is better than bacon! http://www.dublinstore.com/
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menesis at pov

May 21, 2012, 1:49 AM

Post #8 of 13 (346 views)
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Re: zope.interface 4.0.0 considered annoying. [In reply to]

2012/5/20 Tres Seaver <tseaver [at] palladion>:
> On 05/19/2012 07:23 PM, Jim Fulton wrote:
>> On Sat, May 19, 2012 at 5:59 PM, Tres Seaver <tseaver [at] palladion>
>> wrote:
>>> On 05/19/2012 12:12 PM, Jim Fulton wrote:
>>>> The declaration-syntax warnings in the zope.interface 4.0.0 are
>>>> annoying and mostly pointless.
>>>>
>>>> There will be enough pain in porting applications to Python 3,
>>>> avoiding the surprise of having to use a different
>>>> interface-declaration syntax will not be of any consequence.
>>>>
>>>> While the deprecation warning may provide some tiny benefit, the
>>>> annoyance, especially for applications or libraries that still
>>>> support Python 2.5 far outweights the benefit.
>>>
>>> We're in an odd spot: Â the Python3 support for zope.interface
>>> mostly works, but the class advice bits (implements,
>>> implementsOnly, classProvides) fail silently under Python3 before
>>> 4.0.0: Â they literally have no effect due to changes in class
>>> initialization machinery. zope.interface 4.0.0 changes those silent
>>> failures into exceptions (which is what I thought you were going to
>>> complain about).
>>
>> I'd forgotten the fail silently bit. Â Can't we make the fail loudly
>> for Python 3?
>
> They already do: Â 4.0.0 makes them exceptions under Python3: Â that fact
> was actually my rationale for the warnings under Python2, to allow folks
> to find and remediate them before porting.

If they are exceptions under Python 3, developers will get them and
have to fix when porting to Python 3. There is a lot of other work to
be done at the same time. But under Python 2, implements and friends
continue to work, so the warnings are very annoying.

> I will release a 4.0.1 silencing the warnings unless somebody speaks up
> in their favor.

Please, only warn on Python 3.

--
Gediminas Paulauskas
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brian at vanguardistas

May 21, 2012, 8:54 AM

Post #9 of 13 (345 views)
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Re: zope.interface 4.0.0 considered annoying. [In reply to]

On Sun, May 20, 2012 at 12:08:14AM -0400, Tres Seaver wrote:
> On 05/19/2012 07:23 PM, Jim Fulton wrote:
> > On Sat, May 19, 2012 at 5:59 PM, Tres Seaver <tseaver [at] palladion>
> > wrote:
> >> On 05/19/2012 12:12 PM, Jim Fulton wrote:
> >>> The declaration-syntax warnings in the zope.interface 4.0.0 are
> >>> annoying and mostly pointless.
> >>>
> >>> There will be enough pain in porting applications to Python 3,
> >>> avoiding the surprise of having to use a different
> >>> interface-declaration syntax will not be of any consequence.
> >>>
> >>> While the deprecation warning may provide some tiny benefit, the
> >>> annoyance, especially for applications or libraries that still
> >>> support Python 2.5 far outweights the benefit.
> >>
> >> We're in an odd spot: the Python3 support for zope.interface
> >> mostly works, but the class advice bits (implements,
> >> implementsOnly, classProvides) fail silently under Python3 before
> >> 4.0.0: they literally have no effect due to changes in class
> >> initialization machinery. zope.interface 4.0.0 changes those silent
> >> failures into exceptions (which is what I thought you were going to
> >> complain about).
> >
> > I'd forgotten the fail silently bit. Can't we make the fail loudly
> > for Python 3?
>
> They already do: 4.0.0 makes them exceptions under Python3: that fact
> was actually my rationale for the warnings under Python2, to allow folks
> to find and remediate them before porting.
>
> I will release a 4.0.1 silencing the warnings unless somebody speaks up
> in their favor.

+1 to silencing the warnings under Python 2

--
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regebro at gmail

May 21, 2012, 12:38 PM

Post #10 of 13 (347 views)
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Re: zope.interface 4.0.0 considered annoying. [In reply to]

On Sun, May 20, 2012 at 10:42 PM, Jim Fulton <jim [at] zope> wrote:
> Except that most of us aren't going to use 2to3, except for an initial
> stab at porting to 2&3.

Which is good enough. You only need to run it once.

//Lennart
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tseaver at palladion

May 22, 2012, 10:36 AM

Post #11 of 13 (319 views)
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Re: zope.interface 4.0.0 considered annoying. [In reply to]

On 05/20/2012 04:28 PM, Lennart Regebro wrote:
> On Sun, May 20, 2012 at 6:08 AM, Tres Seaver <tseaver [at] palladion>
> wrote:
>> I will release a 4.0.1 silencing the warnings unless somebody speaks
>> up in their favor.
>
> We should make sure we have 2to3 fixers for everything change as
> well. I added some fixers, but it's so long ago I'm not sure all
> changes are covered. But with fixers the warnings aren't very
> problematic, as fixing the loud failures is just a matter of running
> the fixers.

FWIW, I'm no longer using 2to3 for anything (it was the source of the
multi-minute install time for zope.interfaceu under Py3k). I have no
objection to having the relevant fixers added to the zope.fixers package.

Tres.
--
===================================================================
Tres Seaver +1 540-429-0999 tseaver [at] palladion
Palladion Software "Excellence by Design" http://palladion.com

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tseaver at palladion

May 22, 2012, 10:37 AM

Post #12 of 13 (318 views)
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Re: zope.interface 4.0.0 considered annoying. [In reply to]

On 05/21/2012 04:49 AM, Gediminas Paulauskas wrote:
> 2012/5/20 Tres Seaver <tseaver [at] palladion>:
>> On 05/19/2012 07:23 PM, Jim Fulton wrote:
>>> On Sat, May 19, 2012 at 5:59 PM, Tres Seaver
>>> <tseaver [at] palladion> wrote:
>> They already do: 4.0.0 makes them exceptions under Python3: that
>> fact was actually my rationale for the warnings under Python2, to
>> allow folks to find and remediate them before porting.
>
> If they are exceptions under Python 3, developers will get them and
> have to fix when porting to Python 3. There is a lot of other work to
> be done at the same time. But under Python 2, implements and friends
> continue to work, so the warnings are very annoying.
>
>> I will release a 4.0.1 silencing the warnings unless somebody speaks
>> up in their favor.
>
> Please, only warn on Python 3.

On Python3, it *needs* to be an exception: code which still uses the
class advice APIs won't work.

Tres.
--
===================================================================
Tres Seaver +1 540-429-0999 tseaver [at] palladion
Palladion Software "Excellence by Design" http://palladion.com

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tseaver at palladion

May 22, 2012, 1:06 PM

Post #13 of 13 (322 views)
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Re: zope.interface 4.0.0 considered annoying. [In reply to]

On 05/19/2012 05:59 PM, Tres Seaver wrote:
> On 05/19/2012 12:12 PM, Jim Fulton wrote:

>> I propose that these deprecation warnings be removed.
>
> I can do that, if that is the consensus.

Now done, and released as zope.interface 4.0.1.

Tres.
--
===================================================================
Tres Seaver +1 540-429-0999 tseaver [at] palladion
Palladion Software "Excellence by Design" http://palladion.com

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