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Subversion externals versus mirroring

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ct at gocept

Sep 9, 2009, 5:31 AM

Post #1 of 32 (1986 views)
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Subversion externals versus mirroring

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Hi,

a long-standing issue with our mirror of svn.zope.org are the absolute
URLs of externals: they require the repository to be available on a
given URL.

I propose to use relative URLs for externals. I guess a complete update
isn't necessary, but I'd like to improve the situation and start using
them from now on. Maybe we should also put a commit hook in place as a
safety belt?

However, this requires Subversion 1.5 which we are using on the server
already, but I don't know whether we assume clients are 1.5 or higher.

As a side effect this will also make svn/svn+ssh work in a nicer way
(IMHO) as the externals will follow the protocol of what you used for
checkout.

Christian

- --
Christian Theune · ct [at] gocept
gocept gmbh & co. kg · forsterstraße 29 · 06112 halle (saale) · germany
http://gocept.com · tel +49 345 1229889 0 · fax +49 345 1229889 1
Zope and Plone consulting and development
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fdrake at gmail

Sep 9, 2009, 5:35 AM

Post #2 of 32 (1939 views)
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Re: Subversion externals versus mirroring [In reply to]

On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 8:31 AM, Christian Theune<ct [at] gocept> wrote:
> As a side effect this will also make svn/svn+ssh work in a nicer way
> (IMHO) as the externals will follow the protocol of what you used for
> checkout.

I like that externals to svn:... are read-only, though I don't know
offhand whether we have a policy about this.

-Fred

--
Fred L. Drake, Jr. <fdrake at gmail.com>
"Chaos is the score upon which reality is written." --Henry Miller
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faassen at startifact

Sep 9, 2009, 5:40 AM

Post #3 of 32 (1953 views)
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Re: Subversion externals versus mirroring [In reply to]

Hi there,

Christian Theune wrote:
> a long-standing issue with our mirror of svn.zope.org are the absolute
> URLs of externals: they require the repository to be available on a
> given URL.
>
> I propose to use relative URLs for externals. I guess a complete update
> isn't necessary, but I'd like to improve the situation and start using
> them from now on. Maybe we should also put a commit hook in place as a
> safety belt?
>
> However, this requires Subversion 1.5 which we are using on the server
> already, but I don't know whether we assume clients are 1.5 or higher.

I certainly still use a SVN 1.4.x client, being on Ubuntu 8.04 LTS
(released just last year). I don't think SVN 1.5 is common enough yet to
make such a move possible.

> As a side effect this will also make svn/svn+ssh work in a nicer way
> (IMHO) as the externals will follow the protocol of what you used for
> checkout.

That's definitely cool; keeps tripping me up when I want to check into
an external. Usually I use externals when I'm developing multiple things
at once...

So, I don't think it's time yet, but I do support this on the longer
term. We could record a decision to do this at least for the ZTK in the
ZTK decisions document. What about mid-next year for requiring
Subversion 1.5.x? There's nothing against us deciding things well ahead
of time! A ZTK timeline planning document, anyone?

(Ubuntu should've released a new LTS by then too. :)

Regards,

Martijn

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robert at redcor

Sep 9, 2009, 5:48 AM

Post #4 of 32 (1943 views)
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Re: Subversion externals versus mirroring [In reply to]

Martijn Faassen schrieb:
> Hi there,
>
> Christian Theune wrote:
>> a long-standing issue with our mirror of svn.zope.org are the absolute
>> URLs of externals: they require the repository to be available on a
>> given URL.
>>
>> I propose to use relative URLs for externals. I guess a complete update
>> isn't necessary, but I'd like to improve the situation and start using
>> them from now on. Maybe we should also put a commit hook in place as a
>> safety belt?
>>
>> However, this requires Subversion 1.5 which we are using on the server
>> already, but I don't know whether we assume clients are 1.5 or higher.
>
> I certainly still use a SVN 1.4.x client, being on Ubuntu 8.04 LTS
> (released just last year). I don't think SVN 1.5 is common enough yet to
> make such a move possible.

you still can use 1.4 clients an a 1.5 server I think..

robert
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hanno at hannosch

Sep 9, 2009, 5:54 AM

Post #5 of 32 (1942 views)
Permalink

Re: Subversion externals versus mirroring [In reply to]

On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 2:40 PM, Martijn Faassen<faassen [at] startifact> wrote:
> Christian Theune wrote:
>> However, this requires Subversion 1.5 which we are using on the server
>> already, but I don't know whether we assume clients are 1.5 or higher.
>
> I certainly still use a SVN 1.4.x client, being on Ubuntu 8.04 LTS
> (released just last year). I don't think SVN 1.5 is common enough yet to
> make such a move possible.

We moved all the Plone repositories (including the rather massively
used collective) to Subversion 1.5.6 a while ago. So far there have
been no complaints by anyone. And as Robert noted you can use a
Subversion 1.4 client with a 1.5 server just fine.

I think doing the server upgrade very soon (tm) shouldn't be a problem.

Using relative externals or proper merge history might be something
that shouldn't be required yet, though. Maybe people should be free
and allowed to do this for any package not being part of the ZTK right
away. That might introduce some incentive for those still using
age-old Subversion clients ;)

Hanno
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jim at zope

Sep 9, 2009, 6:01 AM

Post #6 of 32 (1940 views)
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Re: Subversion externals versus mirroring [In reply to]

On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 8:31 AM, Christian Theune<ct [at] gocept> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Hi,
>
> a long-standing issue with our mirror of svn.zope.org are the absolute
> URLs of externals: they require the repository to be available on a
> given URL.
>
> I propose to use relative URLs for externals. I guess a complete update
> isn't necessary, but I'd like to improve the situation and start using
> them from now on. Maybe we should also put a commit hook in place as a
> safety belt?
>
> However, this requires Subversion 1.5 which we are using on the server
> already, but I don't know whether we assume clients are 1.5 or higher.
>
> As a side effect this will also make svn/svn+ssh work in a nicer way
> (IMHO) as the externals will follow the protocol of what you used for
> checkout.

Sounds good to me.

Jim

--
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faassen at startifact

Sep 9, 2009, 6:30 AM

Post #7 of 32 (1930 views)
Permalink

Re: Subversion externals versus mirroring [In reply to]

Hanno Schlichting wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 2:40 PM, Martijn Faassen<faassen [at] startifact> wrote:
>> Christian Theune wrote:
>>> However, this requires Subversion 1.5 which we are using on the server
>>> already, but I don't know whether we assume clients are 1.5 or higher.
>> I certainly still use a SVN 1.4.x client, being on Ubuntu 8.04 LTS
>> (released just last year). I don't think SVN 1.5 is common enough yet to
>> make such a move possible.
>
> We moved all the Plone repositories (including the rather massively
> used collective) to Subversion 1.5.6 a while ago. So far there have
> been no complaints by anyone. And as Robert noted you can use a
> Subversion 1.4 client with a 1.5 server just fine.
>
> I think doing the server upgrade very soon (tm) shouldn't be a problem.

Ah, I perhaps misunderstood. I figured the resolving of relative
externals would be a problem with a Subversion 1.4.x client.

Regards,

Martijn

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jens at dataflake

Sep 9, 2009, 6:35 AM

Post #8 of 32 (1933 views)
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Re: Subversion externals versus mirroring [In reply to]

On Sep 9, 2009, at 15:30 , Martijn Faassen wrote:

> Ah, I perhaps misunderstood. I figured the resolving of relative
> externals would be a problem with a Subversion 1.4.x client.

There's two different issues being confused here.

SVN 1.4 clients will work with SVN 1.5 repositories in general.
However, that's not the real issue here. The issue is the new-style
externals definitions that allow you to use "relative" paths. Those
relative paths will not work for SVN 1.4 clients.

jens

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sidnei.da.silva at gmail

Sep 9, 2009, 6:59 AM

Post #9 of 32 (1936 views)
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Re: Subversion externals versus mirroring [In reply to]

On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 10:35 AM, Jens Vagelpohl<jens [at] dataflake> wrote:
> SVN 1.4 clients will work with SVN 1.5 repositories in general. However,
> that's not the real issue here. The issue is the new-style externals
> definitions that allow you to use "relative" paths. Those relative paths
> will not work for SVN 1.4 clients.

Is that based on an assumption or someone tried and verified that it
doesnt work?

-- Sidnei
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jens at dataflake

Sep 9, 2009, 7:04 AM

Post #10 of 32 (1930 views)
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Re: Subversion externals versus mirroring [In reply to]

On Sep 9, 2009, at 15:59 , Sidnei da Silva wrote:

> On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 10:35 AM, Jens Vagelpohl<jens [at] dataflake>
> wrote:
>> SVN 1.4 clients will work with SVN 1.5 repositories in general.
>> However,
>> that's not the real issue here. The issue is the new-style externals
>> definitions that allow you to use "relative" paths. Those relative
>> paths
>> will not work for SVN 1.4 clients.
>
> Is that based on an assumption or someone tried and verified that it
> doesnt work?

It doesn't. I tried.

jens

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faassen at startifact

Sep 9, 2009, 8:05 AM

Post #11 of 32 (1930 views)
Permalink

Re: Subversion externals versus mirroring [In reply to]

Jens Vagelpohl wrote:
>
> On Sep 9, 2009, at 15:30 , Martijn Faassen wrote:
>
>> Ah, I perhaps misunderstood. I figured the resolving of relative
>> externals would be a problem with a Subversion 1.4.x client.
>
> There's two different issues being confused here.
>
> SVN 1.4 clients will work with SVN 1.5 repositories in general. However,
> that's not the real issue here. The issue is the new-style externals
> definitions that allow you to use "relative" paths. Those relative paths
> will not work for SVN 1.4 clients.

Okay, no objection to upgrading the server to 1.5 now.

But requiring 1.5 as clients will need some more discussion. I take it
there are two main reasons to do so:

* relative URLs in externals

* better merge tracking

Regards,

Martijn

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wichert at wiggy

Sep 9, 2009, 8:23 AM

Post #12 of 32 (1930 views)
Permalink

Re: Subversion externals versus mirroring [In reply to]

On 2009-9-9 14:54, Hanno Schlichting wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 2:40 PM, Martijn Faassen<faassen [at] startifact> wrote:
>> Christian Theune wrote:
>>> However, this requires Subversion 1.5 which we are using on the server
>>> already, but I don't know whether we assume clients are 1.5 or higher.
>>
>> I certainly still use a SVN 1.4.x client, being on Ubuntu 8.04 LTS
>> (released just last year). I don't think SVN 1.5 is common enough yet to
>> make such a move possible.
>
> We moved all the Plone repositories (including the rather massively
> used collective) to Subversion 1.5.6 a while ago. So far there have
> been no complaints by anyone. And as Robert noted you can use a
> Subversion 1.4 client with a 1.5 server just fine.
>
> I think doing the server upgrade very soon (tm) shouldn't be a problem.

Relative externals are handled on the svn client, not the svn server.

Wichert.

--
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http://www.wiggy.net/ It is hard to make things simple.
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jens at dataflake

Sep 9, 2009, 9:40 AM

Post #13 of 32 (1930 views)
Permalink

Re: Subversion externals versus mirroring [In reply to]

On Sep 9, 2009, at 17:05 , Martijn Faassen wrote:

> Jens Vagelpohl wrote:
>> SVN 1.4 clients will work with SVN 1.5 repositories in general.
>> However,
>> that's not the real issue here. The issue is the new-style externals
>> definitions that allow you to use "relative" paths. Those relative
>> paths
>> will not work for SVN 1.4 clients.
>
> Okay, no objection to upgrading the server to 1.5 now.

It's been 1.5 for a while now, so that can be excluded from any
further discussion. This is a client-only problem.

jens

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ct at gocept

Sep 9, 2009, 9:40 AM

Post #14 of 32 (1927 views)
Permalink

Re: Subversion externals versus mirroring [In reply to]

On 09/09/2009 05:05 PM, Martijn Faassen wrote:
> Jens Vagelpohl wrote:
>>
>> On Sep 9, 2009, at 15:30 , Martijn Faassen wrote:
>>
>>> Ah, I perhaps misunderstood. I figured the resolving of relative
>>> externals would be a problem with a Subversion 1.4.x client.
>>
>> There's two different issues being confused here.
>>
>> SVN 1.4 clients will work with SVN 1.5 repositories in general. However,
>> that's not the real issue here. The issue is the new-style externals
>> definitions that allow you to use "relative" paths. Those relative paths
>> will not work for SVN 1.4 clients.
>
> Okay, no objection to upgrading the server to 1.5 now.

That has been done a good while ago already (I was probably ambiguous in
my mail).

> But requiring 1.5 as clients will need some more discussion. I take it
> there are two main reasons to do so:
>
> * relative URLs in externals
>
> * better merge tracking

For some interpretation of "better".

--
Christian Theune · ct [at] gocept
gocept gmbh & co. kg · forsterstraße 29 · 06112 halle (saale) · germany
http://gocept.com · tel +49 345 1229889 0 · fax +49 345 1229889 1
Zope and Plone consulting and development
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ct at gocept

Sep 9, 2009, 9:40 AM

Post #15 of 32 (1936 views)
Permalink

Re: Subversion externals versus mirroring [In reply to]

On 09/09/2009 05:05 PM, Martijn Faassen wrote:
> Jens Vagelpohl wrote:
>>
>> On Sep 9, 2009, at 15:30 , Martijn Faassen wrote:
>>
>>> Ah, I perhaps misunderstood. I figured the resolving of relative
>>> externals would be a problem with a Subversion 1.4.x client.
>>
>> There's two different issues being confused here.
>>
>> SVN 1.4 clients will work with SVN 1.5 repositories in general. However,
>> that's not the real issue here. The issue is the new-style externals
>> definitions that allow you to use "relative" paths. Those relative paths
>> will not work for SVN 1.4 clients.
>
> Okay, no objection to upgrading the server to 1.5 now.

That has been done a good while ago already (I was probably ambiguous in
my mail).

> But requiring 1.5 as clients will need some more discussion. I take it
> there are two main reasons to do so:
>
> * relative URLs in externals
>
> * better merge tracking

For some interpretation of "better".

--
Christian Theune · ct [at] gocept
gocept gmbh & co. kg · forsterstraße 29 · 06112 halle (saale) · germany
http://gocept.com · tel +49 345 1229889 0 · fax +49 345 1229889 1
Zope and Plone consulting and development

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hanno at hannosch

Sep 9, 2009, 9:51 AM

Post #16 of 32 (1935 views)
Permalink

Re: Subversion externals versus mirroring [In reply to]

On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 6:40 PM, Christian Theune<ct [at] gocept> wrote:
> On 09/09/2009 05:05 PM, Martijn Faassen wrote:
>> Okay, no objection to upgrading the server to 1.5 now.
>
> That has been done a good while ago already (I was probably ambiguous in
> my mail).

Damn, Jens is just doing too much of an awesome job and not talking about it ;)

>> But requiring 1.5 as clients will need some more discussion. I take it
>> there are two main reasons to do so:
>>
>> * relative URLs in externals
>>
>> * better merge tracking
>
> For some interpretation of "better".

"better" as in "merge tracking exists now vs. there was nothing so
far". I wouldn't call the merge tracking great in any way, but it is
better than the previous state of having nothing at all. But then
again most of Zope doesn't have many active branches, except for Zope2
and CMF maybe. Most packages only have a maintained trunk, so this
isn't so relevant.

Hanno
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benji at zope

Sep 9, 2009, 10:12 AM

Post #17 of 32 (1931 views)
Permalink

Re: Subversion externals versus mirroring [In reply to]

On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 12:40 PM, Christian Theune<ct [at] gocept> wrote:
> On 09/09/2009 05:05 PM, Martijn Faassen wrote:
>> * better merge tracking
>
> For some interpretation of "better".

My team tried pretty hard to use 1.5's merge tracking and we could never
get it to work well for us.

The only advantage we ended up seeing was that we could "freshen" a
branch from a trunk easily. Even that didn't buy us much because we
previously had been using the relatively easy approach of "rebranching"
from the trunkand merging from the stale branch to the new, fresh
branch.

The limitation of only being able to merge a feature branch back to the
trunk once was also quite irritating.

Plus the merge info properties constantly polluted "svn diff" and "svn
stat" output as well as our commit email (the latter is fixable of
course).

After trying for a few months we abandoned it. YMMV.
--
Benji York
Senior Software Engineer
Zope Corporation
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mbaiju at zeomega

Sep 9, 2009, 10:37 AM

Post #18 of 32 (1927 views)
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Re: Subversion externals versus mirroring [In reply to]

What about upgrading server to 1.6.
Subversion 1.6 has many new features.
>From http://subversion.tigris.org/svn_1.6_releasenotes.html :

* Improved handling of authentication data
* Repository root relative URLs
* Improvements to svn:externals
* Detection of tree conflicts
* Filesystem storage improvements
* Ctypes Python Bindings
* Improved interactive conflict resolution
* Sparse directory exclusion
* Logging support for svnserve
* New public HTTP URI syntax for examining history
* Command-line client improvements
* API changes, improvements, and much language bindings work
* More than 65 new bug fixes, enhancements

Regards,
Baiju M
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tseaver at palladion

Sep 9, 2009, 12:45 PM

Post #19 of 32 (1934 views)
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Re: Subversion externals versus mirroring [In reply to]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

robert rottermann wrote:
> Martijn Faassen schrieb:
>> Hi there,
>>
>> Christian Theune wrote:
>>> a long-standing issue with our mirror of svn.zope.org are the absolute
>>> URLs of externals: they require the repository to be available on a
>>> given URL.
>>>
>>> I propose to use relative URLs for externals. I guess a complete update
>>> isn't necessary, but I'd like to improve the situation and start using
>>> them from now on. Maybe we should also put a commit hook in place as a
>>> safety belt?
>>>
>>> However, this requires Subversion 1.5 which we are using on the server
>>> already, but I don't know whether we assume clients are 1.5 or higher.
>> I certainly still use a SVN 1.4.x client, being on Ubuntu 8.04 LTS
>> (released just last year). I don't think SVN 1.5 is common enough yet to
>> make such a move possible.
>
> you still can use 1.4 clients an a 1.5 server I think..

I don't think such clients will be able to grok newer features (such as
the proposed relative externals).

Tres.
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===================================================================
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ct at gocept

Sep 9, 2009, 10:50 PM

Post #20 of 32 (1911 views)
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Re: Subversion externals versus mirroring [In reply to]

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On 09/09/2009 07:12 PM, Benji York wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 12:40 PM, Christian Theune<ct [at] gocept> wrote:
>> On 09/09/2009 05:05 PM, Martijn Faassen wrote:
>>> * better merge tracking
>>
>> For some interpretation of "better".
>
> My team tried pretty hard to use 1.5's merge tracking and we could never
> get it to work well for us.
>
> The only advantage we ended up seeing was that we could "freshen" a
> branch from a trunk easily. Even that didn't buy us much because we
> previously had been using the relatively easy approach of "rebranching"
> from the trunkand merging from the stale branch to the new, fresh
> branch.
>
> The limitation of only being able to merge a feature branch back to the
> trunk once was also quite irritating.
>
> Plus the merge info properties constantly polluted "svn diff" and "svn
> stat" output as well as our commit email (the latter is fixable of
> course).
>
> After trying for a few months we abandoned it. YMMV.

Same here. We also ended up in many deadlock situations having to
sacrifice chickens for SVN to resume operations. That's why we started
investigating alternatives which are better at branching and merging.

Christian

- --
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gocept gmbh & co. kg · forsterstraße 29 · 06112 halle (saale) · germany
http://gocept.com · tel +49 345 1229889 0 · fax +49 345 1229889 1
Zope and Plone consulting and development
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faassen at startifact

Sep 10, 2009, 7:58 AM

Post #21 of 32 (1898 views)
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Re: Subversion externals versus mirroring [In reply to]

Hey,

Christian Theune wrote:
[snip]
> Same here. We also ended up in many deadlock situations having to
> sacrifice chickens for SVN to resume operations. That's why we started
> investigating alternatives which are better at branching and merging.

Please keep up posted. We have a standing offer from Canonical to host
our stuff in bzr. The move of the Python core developers to mercurial is
also interesting.

Regards,

Martijn

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chris at simplistix

Sep 11, 2009, 6:34 AM

Post #22 of 32 (1864 views)
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Re: Subversion externals versus mirroring [In reply to]

Martijn Faassen wrote:
> Christian Theune wrote:
> [snip]
>> Same here. We also ended up in many deadlock situations having to
>> sacrifice chickens for SVN to resume operations. That's why we started
>> investigating alternatives which are better at branching and merging.
>
> Please keep up posted. We have a standing offer from Canonical to host
> our stuff in bzr. The move of the Python core developers to mercurial is
> also interesting.

I've been impressed with TortoiseHg so far (after a few initial hiccups)
and it looks like they're aiming to be cross platform with it, which is
a pretty big draw, although the MacOS port isn't ready yet...

How has TortoiseBzr progressed?

cheers,

Chris

--
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sdouche at gmail

Sep 11, 2009, 11:00 AM

Post #23 of 32 (1855 views)
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Re: Subversion externals versus mirroring [In reply to]

On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 16:58, Martijn Faassen <faassen [at] startifact> wrote:
Hi Martjin

> Hey,
>
> Christian Theune wrote:
> [snip]
>> Same here. We also ended up in many deadlock situations having to
>> sacrifice chickens for SVN to resume operations. That's why we started
>> investigating alternatives which are better at branching and merging.

Here, we use Hg since 1 year and I'm really happy about that. I don't
want use svn anymore.

> The move of the Python core developers to mercurial is also interesting.

Caution with the actual workflow, 2 differences between SVN and Hg :
- you cannot check out partial repository
- external does not exist

Cheers

--
Sebastien Douche <sdouche [at] gmail>
Twitter: http://bit.ly/afkrK (agile, python, open source)
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gary.poster at gmail

Sep 14, 2009, 11:02 AM

Post #24 of 32 (1724 views)
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Re: Subversion externals versus mirroring [In reply to]

On Sep 11, 2009, at 9:34 AM, Chris Withers wrote:

> Martijn Faassen wrote:
>> Christian Theune wrote:
>> [snip]
>>> Same here. We also ended up in many deadlock situations having to
>>> sacrifice chickens for SVN to resume operations. That's why we
>>> started
>>> investigating alternatives which are better at branching and
>>> merging.
>>
>> Please keep up posted. We have a standing offer from Canonical to
>> host
>> our stuff in bzr. The move of the Python core developers to
>> mercurial is
>> also interesting.
>
> I've been impressed with TortoiseHg so far (after a few initial
> hiccups)
> and it looks like they're aiming to be cross platform with it, which
> is
> a pretty big draw, although the MacOS port isn't ready yet...
>
> How has TortoiseBzr progressed?

My understanding is that TortoiseBzr has largely withered on the vine
in favor of a new effort: BzrExplorer, based on Qt, and running on
Linux/Windows/Mac.

http://bazaar-vcs.org/BzrExplorer

That page has links to lots of information. The very little
information I have is based on those pages, so, for now, please look
there for now rather than asking me anything.

Once Bzr 2.0 comes out (in less than a month AIUI), I'll at least send
out a link to it and point out some changes made that specifically
address concerns raised by Zope Foundation members when I raised
Launchpad's/Canonical's offer before. If there are any questions
then, I'll be happy to try to get answers.

Gary
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reinout at vanrees

Sep 15, 2009, 1:33 AM

Post #25 of 32 (1708 views)
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Re: Subversion externals versus mirroring [In reply to]

On 2009-09-11, Sebastien Douche <sdouche [at] gmail> wrote:
>
> Caution with the actual workflow, 2 differences between SVN and Hg :
> - you cannot check out partial repository
> - external does not exist

Missing externals has been a pain point for me.

There are however buildout recipes that can pull in "externals" for you from
buildout. infrae.subversion does it (and can turn the downloaded stuff into a
development egg at the same time), Balasz Ree has a bzr recipe. I'm betting
there's a mercurial one, also (and otherwise I'll build one if needed) :-)

There remains a small pain point: you have to basically run buildout to update
the "externals" in that way. A simple "svn up"/"bzr up"/etc doesn't update
the externals... But there are of course lots of advantages to distributed
systems that outweigh the small pain.

So: missing externals are solveable if we all use buildout :-)

Reinout

--
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Software developer at http://www.thehealthagency.com
"Military engineers build missiles. Civil engineers build targets"

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