Mailing List Archive: Zope: CMF

Move to github?

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hanno at hannosch

Mar 2, 2013, 4:01 AM

Post #1 of 15 (477 views)
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Move to github?

Hi.

Stephan Richter has volunteered to do SVN to Github conversions for all Zope
projects and has already completed all of Zope 2 "core" and some actively used
projects like five.localsitemanager.

Does anyone have objections if I ask him to convert the CMF packages?

And if Tres reads this: Objections to moving PAS / PluginRegistry?

Cheers,
Hanno

_______________________________________________
Zope-CMF maillist - Zope-CMF [at] zope
https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-cmf

See https://bugs.launchpad.net/zope-cmf/ for bug reports and feature requests

charlie.clark at clark-consulting

Mar 2, 2013, 4:47 AM

Post #2 of 15 (451 views)
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Re: Move to github? [In reply to]

Am 02.03.2013, 13:01 Uhr, schrieb Hanno Schlichting <hanno [at] hannosch>:

> Hi.
> Stephan Richter has volunteered to do SVN to Github conversions for all
> Zope
> projects and has already completed all of Zope 2 "core" and some
> actively used
> projects like five.localsitemanager.
> Does anyone have objections if I ask him to convert the CMF packages?
> And if Tres reads this: Objections to moving PAS / PluginRegistry?

Well, while I'm sure I'm going to struggle even more with git than I do
already with svn, I suppose we'd better get it over with. I have one
uncommitted change that I'll commit later today.

Charlie
--
Charlie Clark
Managing Director
Clark Consulting & Research
German Office
Kronenstr. 27a
Düsseldorf
D- 40217
Tel: +49-211-600-3657
Mobile: +49-178-782-6226
_______________________________________________
Zope-CMF maillist - Zope-CMF [at] zope
https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-cmf

See https://bugs.launchpad.net/zope-cmf/ for bug reports and feature requests

y.2013 at wcm-solutions

Mar 2, 2013, 8:18 AM

Post #3 of 15 (450 views)
Permalink

Re: Move to github? [In reply to]

Hi!

Hanno Schlichting wrote:
> Stephan Richter has volunteered to do SVN to Github conversions for all Zope
> projects and has already completed all of Zope 2 "core" and some actively used
> projects like five.localsitemanager.
>
> Does anyone have objections if I ask him to convert the CMF packages?

Yes. I have objections.

I'd like to keep contributing to CMF. But I'm not going to support
GitHub Inc. by using its services.

Cheers,

Yuppie

_______________________________________________
Zope-CMF maillist - Zope-CMF [at] zope
https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-cmf

See https://bugs.launchpad.net/zope-cmf/ for bug reports and feature requests

optilude+lists at gmail

Mar 2, 2013, 12:42 PM

Post #4 of 15 (445 views)
Permalink

Re: Move to github? [In reply to]

On 2 March 2013 16:18, yuppie <y.2013 [at] wcm-solutions> wrote:

> Hi!
>
>
>
> Hanno Schlichting wrote:
>
>> Stephan Richter has volunteered to do SVN to Github conversions for all
>> Zope
>> projects and has already completed all of Zope 2 "core" and some actively
>> used
>> projects like five.localsitemanager.
>>
>> Does anyone have objections if I ask him to convert the CMF packages?
>>
>
> Yes. I have objections.
>
> I'd like to keep contributing to CMF. But I'm not going to support GitHub
> Inc. by using its services
>

Seriously?

You do realise it's:

a) free (for us)
b) decentralised

I appreciate you may have to do the occasional 'push' to a .com domain, but
you've got to be kidding...

Martin

tseaver at palladion

Mar 2, 2013, 1:44 PM

Post #5 of 15 (442 views)
Permalink

Re: Move to github? [In reply to]

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On 03/02/2013 03:42 PM, Martin Aspeli wrote:
> On 2 March 2013 16:18, yuppie
> <y.2013 [at] wcm-solutions> wrote:
>
>> Hi!
>>
>>
>>
>> Hanno Schlichting wrote:
>>
>>> Stephan Richter has volunteered to do SVN to Github conversions
>>> for all Zope projects and has already completed all of Zope 2
>>> "core" and some actively used projects like
>>> five.localsitemanager.
>>>
>>> Does anyone have objections if I ask him to convert the CMF
>>> packages?
>>>
>>
>> Yes. I have objections.
>>
>> I'd like to keep contributing to CMF. But I'm not going to support
>> GitHub Inc. by using its services
>>
>
> Seriously?
>
> You do realise it's:
>
> a) free (for us) b) decentralised
>
> I appreciate you may have to do the occasional 'push' to a .com
> domain, but you've got to be kidding...

The vote by foundation members to move to Github (rather than self-hosted
Git) was far from unanimous. In fact, we are supposed to have worked out
a means where folks could push to git.zope.org as the canonical
repository for some projects.

Tres.
- --
===================================================================
Tres Seaver +1 540-429-0999 tseaver [at] palladion
Palladion Software "Excellence by Design" http://palladion.com
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_______________________________________________
Zope-CMF maillist - Zope-CMF [at] zope
https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-cmf

See https://bugs.launchpad.net/zope-cmf/ for bug reports and feature requests

charlie.clark at clark-consulting

Mar 3, 2013, 6:44 AM

Post #6 of 15 (443 views)
Permalink

Re: Move to github? [In reply to]

Am 02.03.2013, 21:42 Uhr, schrieb Martin Aspeli <optilude+lists [at] gmail>:

> Seriously?

I can understand reservations about the move and did indeed voice my own
at the time.

> You do realise it's:
> a) free (for us)

"There's no such thing as a free lunch."™

> b) decentralised

If the shit really does hit the fan then I'm not sure that would help us
that much.

> I appreciate you may have to do the occasional 'push' to a .com domain,
> but you've got to be kidding...

I don't think the TLD is the problem. GitHub is a VC funded company and
not a philanthropic institution.

Yuppie has been by far the most prolific contributor to the CMF over the
last few years. I'm not sure if it will have much of a future without his
continued commitment.

Charlie
--
Charlie Clark
Managing Director
Clark Consulting & Research
German Office
Kronenstr. 27a
Düsseldorf
D- 40217
Tel: +49-211-600-3657
Mobile: +49-178-782-6226
_______________________________________________
Zope-CMF maillist - Zope-CMF [at] zope
https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-cmf

See https://bugs.launchpad.net/zope-cmf/ for bug reports and feature requests

y.2013 at wcm-solutions

Mar 3, 2013, 9:48 AM

Post #7 of 15 (446 views)
Permalink

Re: Move to github? [In reply to]

Hi!

Martin Aspeli wrote:
> On 2 March 2013 16:18, yuppie
> <y.2013-E2EsyBC0hj3+aS/vkh9bjw [at] public
> <mailto:y.2013-E2EsyBC0hj3+aS/vkh9bjw [at] public>> wrote:
>
> Yes. I have objections.
>
> I'd like to keep contributing to CMF. But I'm not going to support
> GitHub Inc. by using its services
>
>
> Seriously?

Yes.

> You do realise it's:
>
> a) free (for us)
> b) decentralised

What do you mean by "it"? What by "free"? What is "decentralised"? Why
do your points a) and b) make supporting GitHub Inc. a good decision?

GitHub Inc. is too successful. It already has too much power. That's not
good for the open source community.

Cheers,

Yuppie

_______________________________________________
Zope-CMF maillist - Zope-CMF [at] zope
https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-cmf

See https://bugs.launchpad.net/zope-cmf/ for bug reports and feature requests

lists at zopyx

Mar 3, 2013, 10:45 AM

Post #8 of 15 (444 views)
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Re: Move to github? [In reply to]

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yuppie wrote:

>
>> You do realise it's:
>>
>> a) free (for us) b) decentralised
>
> What do you mean by "it"? What by "free"? What is "decentralised"?
> Why do your points a) and b) make supporting GitHub Inc. a good
> decision?
>
> GitHub Inc. is too successful. It already has too much power. That's
> not good for the open source community.

We all value your contributions to Zope and CMF __very much__ but is it
really necessary being that fundamental?

Andreas
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optilude+lists at gmail

Mar 3, 2013, 1:54 PM

Post #9 of 15 (444 views)
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Re: Move to github? [In reply to]

Hi,

On 3 March 2013 18:45, Andreas Jung <lists [at] zopyx> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
>
>
> yuppie wrote:
>
> >
> >> You do realise it's:
> >>
> >> a) free (for us) b) decentralised
> >
> > What do you mean by "it"? What by "free"? What is "decentralised"?
>

I mean, there's no tangible cost (financial or otherwise) of using GitHub;
and git's architecture pretty much ensures that there's no lock-in
(especially if mirroring is set up).

> > Why do your points a) and b) make supporting GitHub Inc. a good
> > decision?
>

I don't see it as supporting GitHub. I see it as using a service that is
free to us and rather good. It saves resources (e.g. the time spent
managing svn.zope.org; the cost of bandwidth) that can be better spent
elsewhere (e.g. working on Zope/CMF). It helps make it easier for others to
contribute, because so many people already know how to use GitHub.

> > GitHub Inc. is too successful. It already has too much power. That's
> > not good for the open source community.
>

Because?

> We all value your contributions to Zope and CMF __very much__ but is it
> really necessary being that fundamental?
>

I'd echo that sentiment (especially the first part).

What's the worst that could happen? GitHub goes belly-up and we starting
using a different remote in our repos? GitHub tries to violate the license
terms of our software somehow (that seems very unlikely)?

Martin

tseaver at palladion

Mar 3, 2013, 4:36 PM

Post #10 of 15 (434 views)
Permalink

Re: Move to github? [In reply to]

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On 03/03/2013 04:54 PM, Martin Aspeli wrote:
> (e.g. the time spent managing svn.zope.org; the cost of bandwidth)
> that can be better spent elsewhere (e.g. working on Zope/CMF)

FWIW<, I doubt that those costs are measurable in any significant sense:
bandwidth and core sysadmin for that host have been donated by Zope
Corp. for more than a decade now. Volunteer time spent keeping the SVN
server running run less than an hour a month (on par with maintaining the
150+ Github repos).

Tres.
- --
===================================================================
Tres Seaver +1 540-429-0999 tseaver [at] palladion
Palladion Software "Excellence by Design" http://palladion.com
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_______________________________________________
Zope-CMF maillist - Zope-CMF [at] zope
https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-cmf

See https://bugs.launchpad.net/zope-cmf/ for bug reports and feature requests

y.2013 at wcm-solutions

Mar 4, 2013, 2:55 AM

Post #11 of 15 (435 views)
Permalink

Re: Move to github? [In reply to]

Hi!

Martin Aspeli wrote:
> I mean, there's no tangible cost (financial or otherwise) of using
> GitHub; and git's architecture pretty much ensures that there's no
> lock-in (especially if mirroring is set up).
[...]
> I don't see it as supporting GitHub. I see it as using a service that is
> free to us and rather good. It saves resources (e.g. the time spent
> managing svn.zope.org <http://svn.zope.org>; the cost of bandwidth) that
> can be better spent elsewhere (e.g. working on Zope/CMF). It helps make
> it easier for others to contribute, because so many people already know
> how to use GitHub.
>
> > GitHub Inc. is too successful. It already has too much power. That's
> > not good for the open source community.
>
>
> Because?

GitHub is on the best way to become a monopoly in the area of social
coding platforms. Just like Facebook and Twitter already are in their
markets. And all these platforms benefit from the network effect: Each
additional user makes the monopoly more stable and powerful. As you say
above, the fact other people use them as well makes them so valuable.

Monopolies are bad. (At least if they are in private hand.) There is no
technical lock-in for the Git repositories. But there are economic
lock-in mechanisms. If you use a platform, you invest in it: You have to
wrap your head around it. Maybe you helped improving the platform by
reporting bugs, making feature requests or writing tools for it. You
spend time trying to convince other people to use that platform. All
these investments get lost if you switch to an other platform. And even
if an other platform would be technically better you wouldn't switch
because of the network effect that let's you stay where all the other
people are. So GitHub Inc. has to make really bad decisions before
people have an incentive to go somewhere else.

> What's the worst that could happen? GitHub goes belly-up and we starting
> using a different remote in our repos? GitHub tries to violate the
> license terms of our software somehow (that seems very unlikely)?

Companies like GitHub Inc. want to maximize their profit. As soon as
they are big enough, they become arrogant. One day they will start
making money by placing ads everywhere.

If I did get the discussion correctly, people didn't lobby for moving to
GitHub just to use it as a cheap hosting service. They did it because of
the proprietary features GitHub is building around the repositories. I
don't want to give the responsibility for the way I collaborate with
other contributers into the hands of a company.

Cheers,

Yuppie

_______________________________________________
Zope-CMF maillist - Zope-CMF [at] zope
https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-cmf

See https://bugs.launchpad.net/zope-cmf/ for bug reports and feature requests

charlie.clark at clark-consulting

Mar 4, 2013, 3:42 AM

Post #12 of 15 (432 views)
Permalink

Re: Move to github? [In reply to]

Am 02.03.2013, 22:44 Uhr, schrieb Tres Seaver <tseaver [at] palladion>:

> The vote by foundation members to move to Github (rather than self-hosted
> Git) was far from unanimous. In fact, we are supposed to have worked out
> a means where folks could push to git.zope.org as the canonical
> repository for some projects.

I would prefer this if possible.

Charlie
--
Charlie Clark
Managing Director
Clark Consulting & Research
German Office
Kronenstr. 27a
Düsseldorf
D- 40217
Tel: +49-211-600-3657
Mobile: +49-178-782-6226
_______________________________________________
Zope-CMF maillist - Zope-CMF [at] zope
https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-cmf

See https://bugs.launchpad.net/zope-cmf/ for bug reports and feature requests

regebro at gmail

Mar 4, 2013, 8:46 AM

Post #13 of 15 (432 views)
Permalink

Re: Move to github? [In reply to]

I'm not major a CMF contributor and are unlikely to actually
contribute much in the future, so I do not and should not have a say
in the move.
I'd just want to correct a factually incorrect statement though:

On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 11:55 AM, yuppie <y.2013 [at] wcm-solutions> wrote:
> Monopolies are bad. (At least if they are in private hand.)

On the contrary, it's state supported monopolies that are bad. github,
just like twitter and facebook, are still subject to market forces
(and hence neither of them are actually monopolies in a strict sense,
and just a dominant actor on the market, but that's nitpicking). As
they are subject to market forces they can and will be "deposed" from
being the major platform, if they stop doing a good job. Therefore,
this type of "monopoly" are much less bad than any state-supported
monopoly.

This concludes this political broadcast.

//Lennart
_______________________________________________
Zope-CMF maillist - Zope-CMF [at] zope
https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-cmf

See https://bugs.launchpad.net/zope-cmf/ for bug reports and feature requests

charlie.clark at clark-consulting

Mar 4, 2013, 11:13 AM

Post #14 of 15 (436 views)
Permalink

Re: Move to github? [In reply to]

Am 04.03.2013, 17:46 Uhr, schrieb Lennart Regebro <regebro [at] gmail>:

> On the contrary, it's state supported monopolies that are bad…

Monopolies of any sort are usually bad and, unfortunately, rarely
corrected by market forces. So much for "efficient market theory". Which
is why, since Standard Oil, we have anti-trust legislation. There are
exceptions but these are usually of a philosophical such as the European
tradition of having a monopoly on the use of force, the US position (2nd
amendment? is noticeably nuanced).

Philosophically speaking I would side with Yuppie in saying the "GitHub is
up to no good" and I do not maintain any repositories on it myself (that,
and the fact that I can't get my head round git). However, with reference
to our common projects I think it is a general discussion and I would feel
slightly hypocritical pushing for a clean solution here while contributing
to other parts of Zope (chance would be a fine thing) that are on GitHub.
Still hoping for a third option.

Charlie
--
Charlie Clark
Managing Director
Clark Consulting & Research
German Office
Kronenstr. 27a
Düsseldorf
D- 40217
Tel: +49-211-600-3657
Mobile: +49-178-782-6226
_______________________________________________
Zope-CMF maillist - Zope-CMF [at] zope
https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-cmf

See https://bugs.launchpad.net/zope-cmf/ for bug reports and feature requests

hanno at hannosch

Mar 4, 2013, 3:12 PM

Post #15 of 15 (430 views)
Permalink

Re: Move to github? [In reply to]

yuppie <y.2013@...> writes:
> Hanno Schlichting wrote:
> > Does anyone have objections if I ask him to convert the CMF packages?
>
> Yes. I have objections.
>
> I'd like to keep contributing to CMF. But I'm not going to support
> GitHub Inc. by using its services.

Ok. I thought this might be controversial for CMF.

I'm not going to push or argue about this for CMF, as I think Yvo is the
closest to a benevolent dictator we have for CMF these days and the project
certainly cannot afford to loose him.

Hanno

_______________________________________________
Zope-CMF maillist - Zope-CMF [at] zope
https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-cmf

See https://bugs.launchpad.net/zope-cmf/ for bug reports and feature requests

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