Mailing List Archive: Zope: CMF

Products namespace for eggs

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charlie at begeistert

Sep 24, 2009, 4:42 AM

Post #1 of 11 (273 views)
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Products namespace for eggs

Hi,

it struck me the other day, that Zope 2.12 and eggs mean that we don't
have to keep the Products namespace. Has it been kept purely for
convenience? (It would be a lot of fairly monotonous editing to change) Or
is this an explicit Zope 2 convention for preserving the Products
namespace?

Given the choide I'd prefer "cmf" as the namespace.

Charlie
--
Charlie Clark
Helmholtzstr. 20
Düsseldorf
D- 40215
Tel: +49-211-938-5360
GSM: +49-178-782-6226
_______________________________________________
Zope-CMF maillist - Zope-CMF[at]zope.org
https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-cmf

See https://bugs.launchpad.net/zope-cmf/ for bug reports and feature requests

lists at zopyx

Sep 24, 2009, 4:43 AM

Post #2 of 11 (260 views)
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Re: Products namespace for eggs [In reply to]

On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 13:42, Charlie Clark <charlie[at]begeistert.org> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> it struck me the other day, that Zope 2.12 and eggs mean that we don't
> have to keep the Products namespace.
>

How come? Did I miss something?

Andreas

charlie at begeistert

Sep 24, 2009, 4:47 AM

Post #3 of 11 (261 views)
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Re: Products namespace for eggs [In reply to]

Am 24.09.2009, 13:43 Uhr, schrieb Andreas Jung <lists[at]zopyx.com>:

> How come? Did I miss something?

Well - and it's more than likely that I'm mistaken! - eggs allow you to
define the namespace under which you can find them and for CMF we're
preserving "Products". And we've opted to keep the from Products.CMF...
import xyz namespace. I'd prefer from cmf.CMF... import

Please correct me if I'm wrong on this.

Charlie
--
Charlie Clark
Helmholtzstr. 20
Düsseldorf
D- 40215
Tel: +49-211-938-5360
GSM: +49-178-782-6226
_______________________________________________
Zope-CMF maillist - Zope-CMF[at]zope.org
https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-cmf

See https://bugs.launchpad.net/zope-cmf/ for bug reports and feature requests

lists at zopyx

Sep 24, 2009, 4:52 AM

Post #4 of 11 (260 views)
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Re: Products namespace for eggs [In reply to]

Am 24.09.09 13:47, schrieb Charlie Clark:
> Am 24.09.2009, 13:43 Uhr, schrieb Andreas Jung <lists[at]zopyx.com>:
>
>
>> How come? Did I miss something?
>>
> Well - and it's more than likely that I'm mistaken! - eggs allow you to
> define the namespace under which you can find them and for CMF we're
> preserving "Products". And we've opted to keep the from Products.CMF...
> import xyz namespace. I'd prefer from cmf.CMF... import

In my understanding: packages using the Products namespace are subject
to be registered during the startup phase of Zope (using their initialize()
method). And I think there is some other evil path magic within Zope
related to products in general...I think nothing has changed between
Zope 2.11 and 2.12...but I could be wrong.

Andreas

Attachments:

lists.vcf (0.32 KB)

charlie at begeistert

Sep 24, 2009, 5:01 AM

Post #5 of 11 (260 views)
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Re: Products namespace for eggs [In reply to]

Am 24.09.2009, 13:52 Uhr, schrieb Andreas Jung <lists[at]zopyx.com>:

> In my understanding: packages using the Products namespace are subject
> to be registered during the startup phase of Zope (using their
> initialize()
> method). And I think there is some other evil path magic within Zope
> related to products in general...I think nothing has changed between
> Zope 2.11 and 2.12...but I could be wrong.

setuptools replaces that evil magic with its own! But at least you do have
to specify which eggs you will be using. There's no longer a folder which
will magically add any modules in it to sys.path. Now, as long as you
declare the egg in buildout and add it to site.zcml and configure the egg
correctly you're sorted. Maybe it's the five:loadProducts stuff in
site.zcml that's keeping us tied to Products. A namespace change isn't
that important and probably is a lot of fairly uninteresting work for
little perceived gain.

Charlie
--
Charlie Clark
Helmholtzstr. 20
Düsseldorf
D- 40215
Tel: +49-211-938-5360
GSM: +49-178-782-6226
_______________________________________________
Zope-CMF maillist - Zope-CMF[at]zope.org
https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-cmf

See https://bugs.launchpad.net/zope-cmf/ for bug reports and feature requests

jens at dataflake

Sep 24, 2009, 5:09 AM

Post #6 of 11 (260 views)
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Re: Products namespace for eggs [In reply to]

On Sep 24, 2009, at 14:01 , Charlie Clark wrote:

> Am 24.09.2009, 13:52 Uhr, schrieb Andreas Jung <lists[at]zopyx.com>:
>
>> In my understanding: packages using the Products namespace are
>> subject
>> to be registered during the startup phase of Zope (using their
>> initialize()
>> method). And I think there is some other evil path magic within Zope
>> related to products in general...I think nothing has changed between
>> Zope 2.11 and 2.12...but I could be wrong.
>
> setuptools replaces that evil magic with its own! But at least you
> do have
> to specify which eggs you will be using. There's no longer a folder
> which
> will magically add any modules in it to sys.path. Now, as long as you
> declare the egg in buildout and add it to site.zcml and configure
> the egg
> correctly you're sorted. Maybe it's the five:loadProducts stuff in
> site.zcml that's keeping us tied to Products. A namespace change isn't
> that important and probably is a lot of fairly uninteresting work for
> little perceived gain.

Renaming provides less than little perceived gain. It adds serious
pain because then you must go about registering your package manually,
you must change imports all over, and you force every package that
depends on the CMF to do the same. Besides, the different CMF packages
are standard Zope2 products. Leaving them in the Products namespace
makes that very clear.

jens

Attachments:

smime.p7s (4.70 KB)

charlie at begeistert

Sep 24, 2009, 5:17 AM

Post #7 of 11 (260 views)
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Re: Products namespace for eggs [In reply to]

Am 24.09.2009, 14:09 Uhr, schrieb Jens Vagelpohl <jens[at]dataflake.org>:

> Renaming provides less than little perceived gain. It adds serious pain
> because then you must go about registering your package manually, you
> must change imports all over, and you force every package that depends
> on the CMF to do the same. Besides, the different CMF packages are
> standard Zope2 products. Leaving them in the Products namespace makes
> that very clear.

While I'm convinced of the little gain (and even more so of the extended
pain), I think that the move to eggs will over time make the Zope Products
idea redundant. I guess this is why Plone has dropped it. Anyway, I'm glad
we had the discussion as it helped me understand better how things fit
together. :-)

Regarding something completely different - I picked up on zope-dev that
the svn server has been updated. Does this mean that we can now use the
svn branch to trunk merging offered in svn >= 1.5 or is this still
inadvisable? If it is still inadvisable could you list (again) how to go
about doing it properly and safely?

Charlie
--
Charlie Clark
Helmholtzstr. 20
Düsseldorf
D- 40215
Tel: +49-211-938-5360
GSM: +49-178-782-6226
_______________________________________________
Zope-CMF maillist - Zope-CMF[at]zope.org
https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-cmf

See https://bugs.launchpad.net/zope-cmf/ for bug reports and feature requests

m.van.rees at zestsoftware

Sep 24, 2009, 6:16 AM

Post #8 of 11 (260 views)
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Re: Products namespace for eggs [In reply to]

Charlie Clark, on 2009-09-24:
> Am 24.09.2009, 14:09 Uhr, schrieb Jens Vagelpohl <jens[at]dataflake.org>:
>
>> Renaming provides less than little perceived gain. It adds serious pain
>> because then you must go about registering your package manually, you
>> must change imports all over, and you force every package that depends
>> on the CMF to do the same. Besides, the different CMF packages are
>> standard Zope2 products. Leaving them in the Products namespace makes
>> that very clear.
>
> While I'm convinced of the little gain (and even more so of the extended
> pain), I think that the move to eggs will over time make the Zope Products
> idea redundant. I guess this is why Plone has dropped it. Anyway, I'm glad
> we had the discussion as it helped me understand better how things fit
> together. :-)

Plone has not dropped the Products namespace. Sure, you can add
Plone==3.3.1 to your eggs now, but the namespace specified in the egg
is still Products.CMFPlone. Any package in Plone core that is still
in the Products namespace is likely not going to change its name.
Completely new packages generally get the plone.* namespace, but
existing widely used ones we do not touch.

Personally, I am the maintainer of Products.Poi. It will take more
than one bottle of whisky to convince me to rename that. ;-)

--
Maurits van Rees | http://maurits.vanrees.org/
Work | http://zestsoftware.nl/
"This is your day, don't let them take it away." [Barlow Girl]

_______________________________________________
Zope-CMF maillist - Zope-CMF[at]zope.org
https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-cmf

See https://bugs.launchpad.net/zope-cmf/ for bug reports and feature requests

jens at dataflake

Sep 24, 2009, 6:23 AM

Post #9 of 11 (260 views)
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Re: Products namespace for eggs [In reply to]

On Sep 24, 2009, at 15:16 , Maurits van Rees wrote:

> Personally, I am the maintainer of Products.Poi. It will take more
> than one bottle of whisky to convince me to rename that. ;-)

Personally, I believe most product authors who have a real Zope 2
Product but chose a name other than "Products.XXX" did so mostly
because...

- they think it looks cooler somehow
- vanity
- "just because I can"

I doubt any of them can provide any real tangible benefits gained for
users, developers or themselves.

jens

Attachments:

smime.p7s (4.70 KB)

jens at dataflake

Sep 24, 2009, 6:25 AM

Post #10 of 11 (260 views)
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Re: svn server WAS: Products namespace for eggs [In reply to]

On Sep 24, 2009, at 14:17 , Charlie Clark wrote:

> Regarding something completely different - I picked up on zope-dev
> that
> the svn server has been updated. Does this mean that we can now use
> the
> svn branch to trunk merging offered in svn >= 1.5 or is this still
> inadvisable? If it is still inadvisable could you list (again) how
> to go
> about doing it properly and safely?

The SVN server has not been updated. It has been at version 1.5.1 for
a long time.

jens

Attachments:

smime.p7s (4.70 KB)

optilude+lists at gmail

Sep 24, 2009, 6:07 PM

Post #11 of 11 (259 views)
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Re: Products namespace for eggs [In reply to]

Jens Vagelpohl wrote:
> On Sep 24, 2009, at 15:16 , Maurits van Rees wrote:
>
>> Personally, I am the maintainer of Products.Poi. It will take more
>> than one bottle of whisky to convince me to rename that. ;-)
>
> Personally, I believe most product authors who have a real Zope 2
> Product but chose a name other than "Products.XXX" did so mostly
> because...
>
> - they think it looks cooler somehow
> - vanity
> - "just because I can"
>
> I doubt any of them can provide any real tangible benefits gained for
> users, developers or themselves.

This has been revisited so many times I'm sick of re-iterating Plone's
reasons for doing this. None of the above, I'm afraid.

Martin

--
Author of `Professional Plone Development`, a book for developers who
want to work with Plone. See http://martinaspeli.net/plone-book

_______________________________________________
Zope-CMF maillist - Zope-CMF[at]zope.org
https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-cmf

See https://bugs.launchpad.net/zope-cmf/ for bug reports and feature requests

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