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thecarrionkind at gmail

Apr 11, 2012, 8:53 AM

Post #1 of 21 (5823 views)
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Xen timekeeping best practices

Hi,
Just wondering what is the best practice for timekeeping in Xen, on HVMs
and PVMs.

I found lots of information that DomUs should sync with it's Dom0.

However, there are also alot of posts for VMs timedrifting even if the Dom0
is properly synced.

So it in the end, it seems it is better to treat the VM as an independent
timekeeper and sync it using NTP.

What are your thoughts? Is there an official answer out there?
Should it be assumed that somehow a VM is improperly configured with regard
to its Dom0 when it timedrifts?




http://support.ntp.org/bin/view/Support/KnownOsIssues#Section_9.2.2.2.
http://www.brookstevens.org/2010/06/xen-time-drift-and-ntp.html


regards,
Lloyd


mfidelman at meetinghouse

Apr 11, 2012, 9:20 AM

Post #2 of 21 (5714 views)
Permalink
Re: Xen timekeeping best practices [In reply to]

Lloyd Dizon wrote:
> Hi,
> Just wondering what is the best practice for timekeeping in Xen, on
> HVMs and PVMs.
>
> I found lots of information that DomUs should sync with it's Dom0.
>
> However, there are also alot of posts for VMs timedrifting even if the
> Dom0 is properly synced.
>
> So it in the end, it seems it is better to treat the VM as an
> independent timekeeper and sync it using NTP.
>
> What are your thoughts? Is there an official answer out there?
> Should it be assumed that somehow a VM is improperly configured with
> regard to its Dom0 when it timedrifts?
>
There's a pretty good discussion on the Debian Xen Wiki, at
http://wiki.debian.org/Xen
scroll down or search the page for the section starting: 'clocksource/0:
Time went backwards' - which lists several workarounds
note that some of them no longer work with Xen 4 (I think
xen.independent_wallclock=1 is no longer recognized)

--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra



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rgacogne-xen at valombre

Apr 13, 2012, 5:49 AM

Post #3 of 21 (5709 views)
Permalink
Re: Xen timekeeping best practices [In reply to]

Hi,

Miles Fidelman wrote:
> There's a pretty good discussion on the Debian Xen Wiki, at
> http://wiki.debian.org/Xen scroll down or search the page for the
> section starting: 'clocksource/0: Time went backwards' - which lists
> several workarounds note that some of them no longer work with Xen 4 (I
> think xen.independent_wallclock=1 is no longer recognized)

I second that. While it was possible to get a pretty accurate time in Xen
3 by using independent_wallclock, I have been unable to do so with Xen 4
so far.

We have several Xen 4.0.1 production servers, and even by using NTP in
dom0 AND domU we have a recurring problem where the clock goes out of sync
for an hour or so. Using NTP in each domU with the "disable kernel" option
seems to help a bit, but for some users needing less than a few seconds of
time drift it is a real issue.

I am currently thinking of downgrading some users to Xen 3 to work around
this..


--

Regards,

Remi Gacogne


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thecarrionkind at gmail

Apr 13, 2012, 6:26 AM

Post #4 of 21 (5713 views)
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Re: Xen timekeeping best practices [In reply to]

On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 2:49 PM, Remi Gacogne <rgacogne-xen [at] valombre>wrote:

>
> Miles Fidelman wrote:
>
>> There's a pretty good discussion on the Debian Xen Wiki, at
>> http://wiki.debian.org/Xen scroll down or search the page for the
>> section starting: 'clocksource/0: Time went backwards' - which lists
>> several workarounds note that some of them no longer work with Xen 4 (I
>> think xen.independent_wallclock=1 is no longer recognized)
>>
>
> I second that. While it was possible to get a pretty accurate time in Xen
> 3 by using independent_wallclock, I have been unable to do so with Xen 4 so
> far.
>
> We have several Xen 4.0.1 production servers, and even by using NTP in
> dom0 AND domU we have a recurring problem where the clock goes out of sync
> for an hour or so. Using NTP in each domU with the "disable kernel" option
> seems to help a bit, but for some users needing less than a few seconds of
> time drift it is a real issue.
>
> I am currently thinking of downgrading some users to Xen 3 to work around
> this..


This is annoying, as I am on the verge of migrating production machines
from Xen 3 to 4.
I am currently stuck because of time issues with the test machines I've
already migrated. In our environnement 200 ms of time drift is unacceptable.

Has anybody had feedback from Xen development teams? Wondering what will it
take in order to fix this issue...


todd.deshane at xen

Apr 13, 2012, 9:13 AM

Post #5 of 21 (5712 views)
Permalink
Re: Xen timekeeping best practices [In reply to]

On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 9:26 AM, Lloyd Dizon <thecarrionkind [at] gmail> wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 2:49 PM, Remi Gacogne <rgacogne-xen [at] valombre>
> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Miles Fidelman wrote:
>>>
>>> There's a pretty good discussion on the Debian Xen Wiki, at
>>> http://wiki.debian.org/Xen scroll down or search the page for the section
>>> starting: 'clocksource/0: Time went backwards' - which lists several
>>> workarounds note that some of them no longer work with Xen 4 (I think
>>> xen.independent_wallclock=1 is no longer recognized)
>>
>>
>> I second that. While it was possible to get a pretty accurate time in Xen
>> 3 by using independent_wallclock, I have been unable to do so with Xen 4 so
>> far.
>>
>> We have several Xen 4.0.1 production servers, and even by using NTP in
>> dom0 AND domU we have a recurring problem where the clock goes out of sync
>> for an hour or so. Using NTP in each domU with the "disable kernel" option
>> seems to help a bit, but for some users needing less than a few seconds of
>> time drift it is a real issue.
>>
>> I am currently thinking of downgrading some users to Xen 3 to work around
>> this..
>
>
> This is annoying, as I am on the verge of migrating production machines from
> Xen 3 to 4.
> I am currently stuck because of time issues with the test machines I've
> already migrated. In our environnement 200 ms of time drift is unacceptable.
>
> Has anybody had feedback from Xen development teams? Wondering what will it
> take in order to fix this issue...
>

Does this help at all:
http://wiki.xensource.com/wiki/Xen_FAQ_DomU#How_can_i_synchronize_a_dom0_clock.3F

Thanks,
Todd

--
Todd Deshane
http://www.linkedin.com/in/deshantm
http://blog.xen.org/
http://wiki.xen.org/

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rgacogne-xen at valombre

Apr 13, 2012, 9:31 AM

Post #6 of 21 (5711 views)
Permalink
Re: Xen timekeeping best practices [In reply to]

> Does this help at all:
> http://wiki.xensource.com/wiki/Xen_FAQ_DomU#How_can_i_synchronize_a_dom0_clock.3F

Well, thank you but independent_wallclock doesn't exist anymore on pvops
kernel, and the link to blogspot seems broken so, no, not very much :)

--

Regards,

Remi Gacogne


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todd.deshane at xen

Apr 13, 2012, 10:22 AM

Post #7 of 21 (5708 views)
Permalink
Re: Xen timekeeping best practices [In reply to]

Adding Xen-devel.

What are the current timekeeping best practices now?

Thanks,
Todd

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Remi Gacogne <rgacogne-xen [at] valombre>
Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Xen-users] Xen timekeeping best practices
To: Todd Deshane <todd.deshane [at] xen>
Cc: Lloyd Dizon <thecarrionkind [at] gmail>, xen-users [at] lists



> Does this help at all:
> http://wiki.xensource.com/wiki/Xen_FAQ_DomU#How_can_i_synchronize_a_dom0_clock.3F


Well, thank you but independent_wallclock doesn't exist anymore on
pvops kernel, and the link to blogspot seems broken so, no, not very
much :)

--

Regards,

Remi Gacogne



--
Todd Deshane
http://www.linkedin.com/in/deshantm
http://blog.xen.org/
http://wiki.xen.org/

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qrux.qed at gmail

Apr 13, 2012, 12:21 PM

Post #8 of 21 (5709 views)
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Re: Xen timekeeping best practices [In reply to]

On Apr 13, 2012, at 10:22 AM, Todd Deshane wrote:

> Adding Xen-devel.
>
> What are the current timekeeping best practices now?
>

You may want to start here:

xen-tarball-upacked-here/docs/misc/tscmode.txt

I'm not sure there's a silver-bullet solution, but that README is a very detailed description of high-performance timekeeping that discusses hardware caps, migration, and application time-sensitivity.

Once you're familiar with all that, then there will be questions about how your preferred synchronization mechanism (NTP?) interacts with the mechanisms discussed in the TSC README.

Q


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fjwcash at gmail

Apr 13, 2012, 12:41 PM

Post #9 of 21 (5705 views)
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Re: Xen timekeeping best practices [In reply to]

On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 12:21 PM, Qrux <qrux.qed [at] gmail> wrote:
> On Apr 13, 2012, at 10:22 AM, Todd Deshane wrote:
>
>> Adding Xen-devel.
>> What are the current timekeeping best practices now?
>
> You may want to start here:
>        xen-tarball-upacked-here/docs/misc/tscmode.txt

Is that file available online anywhere? It sounds like an interesting read.

--
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fjwcash [at] gmail

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qrux.qed at gmail

Apr 13, 2012, 12:51 PM

Post #10 of 21 (5712 views)
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Re: Xen timekeeping best practices [In reply to]

On Apr 13, 2012, at 12:41 PM, Freddie Cash wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 12:21 PM, Qrux <qrux.qed [at] gmail> wrote:
>> On Apr 13, 2012, at 10:22 AM, Todd Deshane wrote:
>>
>>> Adding Xen-devel.
>>> What are the current timekeeping best practices now?
>>
>> You may want to start here:
>> xen-tarball-upacked-here/docs/misc/tscmode.txt
>
> Is that file available online anywhere? It sounds like an interesting read.

[.Just to be absolutely clear--I did not write this. This is an article written by Dan Magenheimer, whom I believe to be a Xen developer from Oracle.]

I've posted it here:

http://xlapp.org/xen-timekeeping/tscmode.txt

I've been meaning to start a collection of information for Xen Timekeeping. If anyone else has any docs or images they'd like to contribute, I'd be happy to collect them here as reference material for when someone takes the plunge to update the Xen wiki.

Q



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qrux.qed at gmail

Apr 13, 2012, 7:48 PM

Post #11 of 21 (5699 views)
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Re: Xen timekeeping best practices [In reply to]

On Apr 13, 2012, at 7:15 PM, Todd Deshane wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 3:51 PM, Qrux <qrux.qed [at] gmail> wrote:
>>
>> I've been meaning to start a collection of information for Xen Timekeeping. If anyone else has any docs or images they'd like to contribute, I'd be happy to collect them here as reference material for when someone takes the plunge to update the Xen wiki.
>>
>
> This type of cleanup would be great for a Xen Document Day

1) I have no idea what kind of "cleanup" you're referring to. I'm just trying to fill a void; specifically, the lack of a single place to look for timekeeping information. I'm not trying to summarize, even; I'm just looking to collect information.

2) As for a Xen Doc Day...I "attended" one of those once, for the better part of a working day. There were a few people on that IRC channel, and it felt like you had to know the "magic password"; the channel was completely silent, other than someone telling me that it was "just quiet" after I asked what the heck was going on (or supposed to go on). That didn't seem a particularly good use of time.

Personally, I'd rather just collect some information for now.

Q


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todd.deshane at xen

Apr 13, 2012, 8:46 PM

Post #12 of 21 (5695 views)
Permalink
Re: Xen timekeeping best practices [In reply to]

On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 10:48 PM, Qrux <qrux.qed [at] gmail> wrote:
>
> On Apr 13, 2012, at 7:15 PM, Todd Deshane wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 3:51 PM, Qrux <qrux.qed [at] gmail> wrote:
>>>
>>> I've been meaning to start a collection of information for Xen Timekeeping. If anyone else has any docs or images they'd like to contribute, I'd be happy to collect them here as reference material for when someone takes the plunge to update the Xen wiki.
>>>
>>
>> This type of cleanup would be great for a Xen Document Day
>
> 1) I have no idea what kind of "cleanup" you're referring to. I'm just trying to fill a void; specifically, the lack of a single place to look for timekeeping information. I'm not trying to summarize, even; I'm just looking to collect information.
>

I was referring to the FAQ
(http://wiki.xensource.com/wiki/Xen_FAQ_DomU#How_can_i_synchronize_a_dom0_clock.3F)
that turned out to be not useful to answer the question. The cleanup
would be to actually provide an accurate answer on the xen wiki for a
common question like this.

> 2) As for a Xen Doc Day...I "attended" one of those once, for the better part of a working day. There were a few people on that IRC channel, and it felt like you had to know the "magic password"; the channel was completely silent, other than someone telling me that it was "just quiet" after I asked what the heck was going on (or supposed to go on). That didn't seem a particularly good use of time.
>

Thanks for the feedback. I've added Lars to the CC. He may not have
been around for that particular doc day to help coordinate. Lars can
give you a better sense of how they run and what to expect.

> Personally, I'd rather just collect some information for now.

Great. We just like to try to coordinate these efforts so that the
information lands (and/or is linked) on the appropriate wikis,
developer docs, websites, etc.

Thanks,
Todd

--
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http://www.linkedin.com/in/deshantm
http://blog.xen.org/
http://wiki.xen.org/

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thecarrionkind at gmail

Apr 17, 2012, 1:46 AM

Post #13 of 21 (5673 views)
Permalink
Re: Xen timekeeping best practices [In reply to]

On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 6:31 PM, Remi Gacogne <rgacogne-xen [at] valombre> wrote:
>
>> Does this help at all:
>>
>> http://wiki.xensource.com/wiki/Xen_FAQ_DomU#How_can_i_synchronize_a_dom0_clock.3F
>
>
> Well, thank you but independent_wallclock doesn't exist anymore on pvops
> kernel,

I think it still exists, I found the info below in the last SUSE 11 SP
2 release (13.04.2012).
This versions runs the 3.0.10 linux kernel with includes pvops.


http://www.suse.com/releasenotes/x86_64/SUSE-SLES/11-SP2/

11.6.6.10. Time Synchronization in titlevirtualized Domains with NTP

Paravirtualized (PV) DomUs usually receive the time from the
hypervisor. If you want to run "ntp" in PV DomUs, the DomU must be
decoupled from the Dom0's time. At runtime, this is done with:

echo 1 > /proc/sys/xen/independent_wallclock

To set this at boot time:

either append "independent_wallclock=1" to kernel cmd line in
DomU's grub configuration file

or append "xen.independent_wallclock = 1" to /etc/sysctl.conf in the DomU.

If you encounter time synchronization issues with Paravirtualized
Domains, we encourage you to use NTP.

http://www.suse.com/releasenotes/x86_64/SUSE-SLES/11-SP2/

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rgacogne-xen at valombre

Apr 17, 2012, 2:53 AM

Post #14 of 21 (5671 views)
Permalink
Re: Xen timekeeping best practices [In reply to]

Hi LLoyd,

>> Well, thank you but independent_wallclock doesn't exist anymore on pvops
>> kernel,
>
> I think it still exists, I found the info below in the last SUSE 11 SP
> 2 release (13.04.2012).
> This versions runs the 3.0.10 linux kernel with includes pvops.

I don't have access to a running Suse SLES, but I am wondering if the
documentation is up to date.

What I know is that pv_ops kernel in Debian squeeze do not have
independent_wallclock.
I have not been able to find something related to an independent_wallclock
parameter in a vanilla Linux 3.2 kernel either.

In addition, there is a lot of ressources available on Internet stating
that independent_wallclock does not exist on pv_ops kernel anymore,
starting with http://wiki.debian.org/Xen.

> Done.
> Anybody please correct the information if inaccurate.
> http://wiki.xensource.com/wiki/Xen_FAQ_DomU#How_can_i_synchronize_a_dom0_clock.3F

Thanks. However, I think the table headers a bit misleading, because in

> Classic XenoLinux Kern (up to 2.6.37)

2.6.37 relates to the kernel version, whereas in

> Paravirt Ops Linux Kern (from 3.0)

it seems to be related to Xen version, if I am not mistaken.

--

Regards,

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list at fajar

Apr 17, 2012, 2:57 AM

Post #15 of 21 (5672 views)
Permalink
Re: Xen timekeeping best practices [In reply to]

On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 4:53 PM, Remi Gacogne <rgacogne-xen [at] valombre> wrote:

>> http://wiki.xensource.com/wiki/Xen_FAQ_DomU#How_can_i_synchronize_a_dom0_clock.3F
>
>
> Thanks. However, I think the table headers a bit misleading, because in
>
>> Classic XenoLinux Kern (up to 2.6.37)
>
>
> 2.6.37 relates to the kernel version, whereas in
>
>> Paravirt Ops Linux Kern (from 3.0)
>
>
> it seems to be related to Xen version, if I am not mistaken.

No. Why would you think that?

vanilla kernel can be used as dom0 starting from linux-3.0 (it's
currently at 3.3.2)

--
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rgacogne-xen at valombre

Apr 17, 2012, 3:08 AM

Post #16 of 21 (5680 views)
Permalink
Re: Xen timekeeping best practices [In reply to]

>> it seems to be related to Xen version, if I am not mistaken.
>
> No. Why would you think that?
>
> vanilla kernel can be used as dom0 starting from linux-3.0 (it's
> currently at 3.3.2)

Ok, sorry. I guess I have been reading too quickly and mixed it up with
Ian's reponse :

"The 3->4 major number transition was mostly just a version number bump,
it didn't indicate any major change in the API or anything like that --
any PV kernel should run on any Xen from 3.0 onwards, right through to
4.2 (and beyond).
"


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thecarrionkind at gmail

Apr 18, 2012, 8:37 AM

Post #17 of 21 (5671 views)
Permalink
Re: Xen timekeeping best practices [In reply to]

On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 11:53 AM, Remi Gacogne
<rgacogne-xen [at] valombre> wrote:
>>> Well, thank you but independent_wallclock doesn't exist anymore on pvops
>>> kernel,
>>
>>
>> I think it still exists, I found the info below in the last SUSE 11 SP
>> 2 release (13.04.2012).
>> This versions runs the 3.0.10 linux kernel with includes pvops.
>
>
> I don't have access to a running Suse SLES, but I am wondering if the
> documentation is up to date.
>
> What I know is that pv_ops kernel in Debian squeeze do not have
> independent_wallclock.
> I have not been able to find something related to an independent_wallclock
> parameter in a vanilla Linux 3.2 kernel either.

I think you should run ntp on DomU anyway.
Found this info from
http://wiki.debian.org/Xen#A.27clocksource.2BAC8-0.3ATimewentbackwards.27

xen.independent_wallclock sysctl setting is not available for newer
squeeze kernels supporting pvops. If you have relied on it, you would
have to run ntpd in dom0 and domUs. source

If you do can you please post your results?


Thanks.
Lloyd

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rgacogne-xen at valombre

Apr 18, 2012, 8:48 AM

Post #18 of 21 (5656 views)
Permalink
Re: Xen timekeeping best practices [In reply to]

Hi,

> I think you should run ntp on DomU anyway.
> Found this info from
> http://wiki.debian.org/Xen#A.27clocksource.2BAC8-0.3ATimewentbackwards.27
>
> xen.independent_wallclock sysctl setting is not available for newer
> squeeze kernels supporting pvops. If you have relied on it, you would
> have to run ntpd in dom0 and domUs. source
>
> If you do can you please post your results?

I am already running NTP in dom0 AND domUs.

We are currently thinking that our problem may be related to the fact that
the ACPI of the related hardware does not advertise HPET support, and we
are investigating whether booting the kernel with hpet=force and cpuidle
would fix this issue.




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mfidelman at meetinghouse

May 1, 2012, 3:45 PM

Post #19 of 21 (5584 views)
Permalink
Re: Xen timekeeping best practices [In reply to]

Has there been any resolution on this?

I've been playing with a new installation of Xen (Xen 4 on Debian
Squeeze), in preparation of migrating from Xen 3 on Debian Lenny.

I've been having a devil of a time figuring out how to get time to work
on domUs (or not figuring it out):
- independent wallclock is no longer an available setting
- doesn't seem to matter if I install a separate ntpd on a domU or not,
either way time on the domU seems to run very fast, just running further
and further ahead of time on the dom0 and the ntp source

Something is weird.

Miles Fidelman

--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra



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mfidelman at meetinghouse

May 1, 2012, 4:02 PM

Post #20 of 21 (5584 views)
Permalink
Re: Xen timekeeping best practices [In reply to]

Miles Fidelman wrote:
> Has there been any resolution on this?
>
> I've been playing with a new installation of Xen (Xen 4 on Debian
> Squeeze), in preparation of migrating from Xen 3 on Debian Lenny.
>
> I've been having a devil of a time figuring out how to get time to
> work on domUs (or not figuring it out):
> - independent wallclock is no longer an available setting
> - doesn't seem to matter if I install a separate ntpd on a domU or
> not, either way time on the domU seems to run very fast, just running
> further and further ahead of time on the dom0 and the ntp source
>
> Something is weird.

SOLVED IT: Took *clocksource=jiffies * out of my <vm>.cfg file and now
everything is in sync. Looks like all the things needed to make time
work in Xen 3/Lenny, break things in Xen 4/Squeeze.


--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra



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rgacogne-xen at valombre

Jul 13, 2012, 1:21 AM

Post #21 of 21 (5350 views)
Permalink
Re: Xen timekeeping best practices [In reply to]

On Thu, 12 Jul 2012, James Triplett wrote:

> Did you ever get this resolved? I'm having, I think, the same problem...

Hi James,

I realize I didn't keep the list updated of my hpet=force try, so I am
sending this mail to xen-users. I am putting you in Bcc so your email @
doesn't leak on a public mailing list if you didn't intend it to.

I'm afraid I did not. Booting the kernel with hpet=force and cpuidle
didn't help and, as we were running out of time, the time-sensitive domUs
were moved to a dom0 where the HPET support is correctly working.

For what it's worth, I am seeing this issue on every Intel E5405 powered
Xen 4 I have, and it is correctly working on every Intel L5630 powered Xen
4.

I had no issue with the Intel E5405 hosts in Xen 3, the timekeeping issue
happened after migrating to Xen 4.

Hope this helps.


Cheers,

Remi Gacogne


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