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Re: [Xen-users] XCP 1.5 availability

 

 

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mike.mcclurg at citrix

Dec 8, 2011, 1:29 AM

Post #1 of 23 (2508 views)
Permalink
Re: [Xen-users] XCP 1.5 availability

(Added xen-api list to CC.)

On 06/12/11 19:57, Enzo Lombardi wrote:
> Is there any nightly build, dev build, morning build of XCP 1.5?
> I saw a message mentioning "end of September", what happened to this
> release? What is the delay and what does the schedule looks like?

Hi Enzo,

We had hoped for a September beta at one point, but clearly this hasn't
happened. We're currently aiming for a January alpha release. The delays
have been due to our focus on Project Kronos, where we are porting the
XCP toolstack to run on Debian and Ubuntu. The core XCP team consists of
only two people, and Kronos turned out to be quite a time consuming
project. At the same time, we are still committed to providing the
traditional XCP "appliance", as well as XCP on Debian and Ubuntu.

The problem with the XCP appliance and it's slow releases is mainly due
to our internal build system. In the past, the XCP team has had to do a
lot of manual work to convert each XenServer release into an XCP
release. Over the last year we have been tweaking our build system, and
parts of our toolstack code, to do this work for us.

The last bits of this work are almost complete. Once they are complete,
we will be able to start providing regular development snapshots of XCP,
and will be able to provide a more regular release cadence. Until this
work is complete, we don't feel that it would be worthwhile to release
an alpha of XCP 1.5, because we know it will be broken, due to the
incompleteness of our build system and toolstack changes.

I'm sorry again for the delay to XCP 1.5. We hope that the work we're
doing pays off in that future releases won't be so delayed, and
development snapshots will finally be possible. Thanks for the continued
interest in XCP.

Mike

_______________________________________________
xen-api mailing list
xen-api [at] lists
http://lists.xensource.com/mailman/listinfo/xen-api


eduardo.terra at gmail

Dec 8, 2011, 12:35 PM

Post #2 of 23 (2454 views)
Permalink
Re: [Xen-users] XCP 1.5 availability [In reply to]

Mike,
Project Kronos is going to be more 'actual' than XCP? Should I migrate from
XCP to Kronos?

Regards


On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 7:29 AM, Mike McClurg <mike.mcclurg [at] citrix>wrote:

> (Added xen-api list to CC.)
>
> On 06/12/11 19:57, Enzo Lombardi wrote:
> > Is there any nightly build, dev build, morning build of XCP 1.5?
> > I saw a message mentioning "end of September", what happened to this
> > release? What is the delay and what does the schedule looks like?
>
> Hi Enzo,
>
> We had hoped for a September beta at one point, but clearly this hasn't
> happened. We're currently aiming for a January alpha release. The delays
> have been due to our focus on Project Kronos, where we are porting the
> XCP toolstack to run on Debian and Ubuntu. The core XCP team consists of
> only two people, and Kronos turned out to be quite a time consuming
> project. At the same time, we are still committed to providing the
> traditional XCP "appliance", as well as XCP on Debian and Ubuntu.
>
> The problem with the XCP appliance and it's slow releases is mainly due
> to our internal build system. In the past, the XCP team has had to do a
> lot of manual work to convert each XenServer release into an XCP
> release. Over the last year we have been tweaking our build system, and
> parts of our toolstack code, to do this work for us.
>
> The last bits of this work are almost complete. Once they are complete,
> we will be able to start providing regular development snapshots of XCP,
> and will be able to provide a more regular release cadence. Until this
> work is complete, we don't feel that it would be worthwhile to release
> an alpha of XCP 1.5, because we know it will be broken, due to the
> incompleteness of our build system and toolstack changes.
>
> I'm sorry again for the delay to XCP 1.5. We hope that the work we're
> doing pays off in that future releases won't be so delayed, and
> development snapshots will finally be possible. Thanks for the continued
> interest in XCP.
>
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> Xen-users mailing list
> Xen-users [at] lists
> http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users
>



--
Carlos Eduardo Tavares Terra
Red Hat Certified Engineer
Consultor em Infraestrutura de TI
GNU/Linux #413291 [http://counter.li.org]


enzinol at gmail

Dec 8, 2011, 1:13 PM

Post #3 of 23 (2356 views)
Permalink
Re: [Xen-users] XCP 1.5 availability [In reply to]

Thank you Mike.
One more question: I am familiar with the wiki page about the differences
between XCP and XenServer.
I was wondering if one of the feature I care will be in Boston, i.e. the
support for GPU passthrough as exposed in XenServer.
My end goal is to consolidate in one fat box my workstation and server needs
and GPU passthrough is required.
Looking forward for the first bits to be available, thanks for your kind
answer
-e

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike McClurg
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2011 1:29 AM
To: Enzo Lombardi
Cc: xen-users [at] lists ; xen-api [at] lists
Subject: Re: [Xen-users] XCP 1.5 availability

(Added xen-api list to CC.)

On 06/12/11 19:57, Enzo Lombardi wrote:
> Is there any nightly build, dev build, morning build of XCP 1.5?
> I saw a message mentioning "end of September", what happened to this
> release? What is the delay and what does the schedule looks like?

Hi Enzo,

We had hoped for a September beta at one point, but clearly this hasn't
happened. We're currently aiming for a January alpha release. The delays
have been due to our focus on Project Kronos, where we are porting the
XCP toolstack to run on Debian and Ubuntu. The core XCP team consists of
only two people, and Kronos turned out to be quite a time consuming
project. At the same time, we are still committed to providing the
traditional XCP "appliance", as well as XCP on Debian and Ubuntu.

The problem with the XCP appliance and it's slow releases is mainly due
to our internal build system. In the past, the XCP team has had to do a
lot of manual work to convert each XenServer release into an XCP
release. Over the last year we have been tweaking our build system, and
parts of our toolstack code, to do this work for us.

The last bits of this work are almost complete. Once they are complete,
we will be able to start providing regular development snapshots of XCP,
and will be able to provide a more regular release cadence. Until this
work is complete, we don't feel that it would be worthwhile to release
an alpha of XCP 1.5, because we know it will be broken, due to the
incompleteness of our build system and toolstack changes.

I'm sorry again for the delay to XCP 1.5. We hope that the work we're
doing pays off in that future releases won't be so delayed, and
development snapshots will finally be possible. Thanks for the continued
interest in XCP.

Mike


_______________________________________________
xen-api mailing list
xen-api [at] lists
http://lists.xensource.com/mailman/listinfo/xen-api


mike.mcclurg at citrix

Dec 8, 2011, 2:11 PM

Post #4 of 23 (2456 views)
Permalink
Re: [Xen-users] XCP 1.5 availability [In reply to]

On 08/12/11 20:35, Carlos Eduardo Tavares Terra wrote:
> Mike,
> Project Kronos is going to be more 'actual' than XCP? Should I migrate
> from XCP to Kronos?
>

No, you should not migrate from the XCP appliance to Project Kronos,
unless you have need to do so. Project Kronos is just an alternate
delivery form for XCP. Currently, we consider it in beta form, and not
all features of XCP are supported in Kronos yet. We expect that over the
next year, the XCP appliance and XCP on Debian and Ubuntu will reach
feature parity.

The benefits of Kronos are that you have the option of keeping up with
the development version of the XCP toolstack, and you get to install it
on your distro of choice (well, as long as you choose either Debian or
Ubuntu). The benefits of the XCP appliance are that it is an easy to
install appliance, it is much closer to bit-for-bit parity with
XenServer, and as such benefits from the intense testing that Citrix
performs on XenServer.

Neither one will be "better" than the other, but each has it's own
distinct advantages over the other.

Mike


_______________________________________________
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xen-api [at] lists
http://lists.xensource.com/mailman/listinfo/xen-api


mike.mcclurg at citrix

Dec 8, 2011, 2:17 PM

Post #5 of 23 (2468 views)
Permalink
Re: [Xen-users] XCP 1.5 availability [In reply to]

On 08/12/11 21:13, enzinol [at] gmail wrote:
> Thank you Mike.
> One more question: I am familiar with the wiki page about the differences
> between XCP and XenServer.
> I was wondering if one of the feature I care will be in Boston, i.e. the
> support for GPU passthrough as exposed in XenServer.
> My end goal is to consolidate in one fat box my workstation and server needs
> and GPU passthrough is required.
> Looking forward for the first bits to be available, thanks for your kind
> answer
> -e

GPU passthrough will be included in XCP 1.5.

Mike


_______________________________________________
xen-api mailing list
xen-api [at] lists
http://lists.xensource.com/mailman/listinfo/xen-api


enzinol at gmail

Dec 8, 2011, 3:20 PM

Post #6 of 23 (2379 views)
Permalink
Re: [Xen-users] XCP 1.5 availability [In reply to]

Thank you!
Since you mentioned Kronos, is there any doc between what to expect as
different feature set?
-e

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike McClurg
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2011 2:17 PM
To: enzinol [at] gmail
Cc: xen-users [at] lists ; xen-api [at] lists
Subject: Re: [Xen-users] XCP 1.5 availability

On 08/12/11 21:13, enzinol [at] gmail wrote:
> Thank you Mike.
> One more question: I am familiar with the wiki page about the differences
> between XCP and XenServer.
> I was wondering if one of the feature I care will be in Boston, i.e. the
> support for GPU passthrough as exposed in XenServer.
> My end goal is to consolidate in one fat box my workstation and server
> needs
> and GPU passthrough is required.
> Looking forward for the first bits to be available, thanks for your kind
> answer
> -e

GPU passthrough will be included in XCP 1.5.

Mike


_______________________________________________
xen-api mailing list
xen-api [at] lists
http://lists.xensource.com/mailman/listinfo/xen-api


pasik at iki

Dec 11, 2011, 11:06 AM

Post #7 of 23 (2447 views)
Permalink
Re: [Xen-users] XCP 1.5 availability [In reply to]

On Thu, Dec 08, 2011 at 09:29:04AM +0000, Mike McClurg wrote:
> (Added xen-api list to CC.)
>
> On 06/12/11 19:57, Enzo Lombardi wrote:
> > Is there any nightly build, dev build, morning build of XCP 1.5?
> > I saw a message mentioning "end of September", what happened to this
> > release? What is the delay and what does the schedule looks like?
>
> Hi Enzo,
>
> We had hoped for a September beta at one point, but clearly this hasn't
> happened. We're currently aiming for a January alpha release. The delays
> have been due to our focus on Project Kronos, where we are porting the
> XCP toolstack to run on Debian and Ubuntu. The core XCP team consists of
> only two people, and Kronos turned out to be quite a time consuming
> project. At the same time, we are still committed to providing the
> traditional XCP "appliance", as well as XCP on Debian and Ubuntu.
>

Hey,

I think we should use the name "XCP" only for the appliance,
and maybe just "XAPI toolstack" for the packages in Debian/Ubuntu?

Does that make sense? Some people are getting confused about what XCP is..


> The problem with the XCP appliance and it's slow releases is mainly due
> to our internal build system. In the past, the XCP team has had to do a
> lot of manual work to convert each XenServer release into an XCP
> release. Over the last year we have been tweaking our build system, and
> parts of our toolstack code, to do this work for us.
>
> The last bits of this work are almost complete. Once they are complete,
> we will be able to start providing regular development snapshots of XCP,
> and will be able to provide a more regular release cadence. Until this
> work is complete, we don't feel that it would be worthwhile to release
> an alpha of XCP 1.5, because we know it will be broken, due to the
> incompleteness of our build system and toolstack changes.
>
> I'm sorry again for the delay to XCP 1.5. We hope that the work we're
> doing pays off in that future releases won't be so delayed, and
> development snapshots will finally be possible. Thanks for the continued
> interest in XCP.
>

Sounds good!

-- Pasi


_______________________________________________
xen-api mailing list
xen-api [at] lists
http://lists.xensource.com/mailman/listinfo/xen-api


mike.mcclurg at citrix

Dec 14, 2011, 9:28 AM

Post #8 of 23 (2428 views)
Permalink
Re: [Xen-users] New name for Kronos? [was XCP 1.5 availability] [In reply to]

On 11/12/11 19:06, Pasi Kärkkäinen wrote:
> Hey,
>
> I think we should use the name "XCP" only for the appliance,
> and maybe just "XAPI toolstack" for the packages in Debian/Ubuntu?
>
> Does that make sense? Some people are getting confused about what XCP is..
>

I think that does make sense, Pasi. For the Debian packages, I think I'd
like to call them the "XCP toolstack" packages. And for a Debian host
with the XCP toolstack installed, perhaps we should just call it a
Kronos host? I'd like the name Kronos to drop away, but it seems like
the easiest way to differentiate the two.

Does anyone else have any suggestions?

Mike

_______________________________________________
xen-api mailing list
xen-api [at] lists
http://lists.xensource.com/mailman/listinfo/xen-api


alex at seamicro

Dec 14, 2011, 9:32 AM

Post #9 of 23 (2468 views)
Permalink
Re: [Xen-users] New name for Kronos? [was XCP 1.5 availability] [In reply to]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: xen-api-bounces [at] lists [mailto:xen-api-
> bounces [at] lists] On Behalf Of Mike McClurg
> Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 9:29 AM
> To: Pasi Kärkkäinen
> Cc: Enzo Lombardi; xen-users [at] lists;
xen-api [at] lists
> Subject: Re: [Xen-API] [Xen-users] New name for Kronos? [was XCP 1.5
> availability]
>
> On 11/12/11 19:06, Pasi Kärkkäinen wrote:
> > Hey,
> >
> > I think we should use the name "XCP" only for the appliance,
> > and maybe just "XAPI toolstack" for the packages in Debian/Ubuntu?
> >
> > Does that make sense? Some people are getting confused about what XCP
is..
> >
>
> I think that does make sense, Pasi. For the Debian packages, I think I'd
> like to call them the "XCP toolstack" packages. And for a Debian host
> with the XCP toolstack installed, perhaps we should just call it a
> Kronos host? I'd like the name Kronos to drop away, but it seems like
> the easiest way to differentiate the two.
>
> Does anyone else have any suggestions?

Mike,

I would go a single step further, and suggest that you not use the term
"XCP" at all in the context of Kronos. There's already pleeenty of
confusion about exactly what is what. Right now, XCP means one thing, and
I would implore you to keep it that way.

_______________________________________________
xen-api mailing list
xen-api [at] lists
http://lists.xensource.com/mailman/listinfo/xen-api


mike.mcclurg at citrix

Dec 14, 2011, 10:01 AM

Post #10 of 23 (2461 views)
Permalink
Re: [Xen-users] New name for Kronos? [was XCP 1.5 availability] [In reply to]

On 14/12/11 17:32, Alex Perez wrote:
> I would go a single step further, and suggest that you not use the term
> "XCP" at all in the context of Kronos. There's already pleeenty of
> confusion about exactly what is what. Right now, XCP means one thing, and
> I would implore you to keep it that way.

One of the biggest effects of this confusion is that people are now
worried that XCP will become completely unstable, like Fedora versus
RHEL, and thus won't be suitable for serious enterprise deployments.

Perhaps just calling it Kronos is a good idea. Though our packaging is
nearly complete, and they are all prefixed with 'xcp-'... I suppose we
can leave that as it is, since it is the XCP toolstack we're installing.
Does anyone else feel this strongly about calling it Kronos, and NOT
mentioning XCP?

Mike

_______________________________________________
xen-api mailing list
xen-api [at] lists
http://lists.xensource.com/mailman/listinfo/xen-api


outbackdingo at gmail

Dec 14, 2011, 10:13 AM

Post #11 of 23 (2425 views)
Permalink
Re: [Xen-users] New name for Kronos? [was XCP 1.5 availability] [In reply to]

On Wed, 2011-12-14 at 18:01 +0000, Mike McClurg wrote:
> On 14/12/11 17:32, Alex Perez wrote:
> > I would go a single step further, and suggest that you not use the term
> > "XCP" at all in the context of Kronos. There's already pleeenty of
> > confusion about exactly what is what. Right now, XCP means one thing, and
> > I would implore you to keep it that way.
>
> One of the biggest effects of this confusion is that people are now
> worried that XCP will become completely unstable, like Fedora versus
> RHEL, and thus won't be suitable for serious enterprise deployments.
>
> Perhaps just calling it Kronos is a good idea. Though our packaging is
> nearly complete, and they are all prefixed with 'xcp-'... I suppose we
> can leave that as it is, since it is the XCP toolstack we're installing.
> Does anyone else feel this strongly about calling it Kronos, and NOT
> mentioning XCP?

I prefer it with the XCP label, though xcp-debian might be better

>
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> xen-api mailing list
> xen-api [at] lists
> http://lists.xensource.com/mailman/listinfo/xen-api



_______________________________________________
xen-api mailing list
xen-api [at] lists
http://lists.xensource.com/mailman/listinfo/xen-api


george.shuklin at gmail

Dec 14, 2011, 10:35 AM

Post #12 of 23 (2468 views)
Permalink
Re: [Xen-users] New name for Kronos? [was XCP 1.5 availability] [In reply to]

On 14.12.2011 21:28, Mike McClurg wrote:
>> I think we should use the name "XCP" only for the appliance,
>> and maybe just "XAPI toolstack" for the packages in Debian/Ubuntu?
>>
>> Does that make sense? Some people are getting confused about what XCP is..
>>
> I think that does make sense, Pasi. For the Debian packages, I think I'd
> like to call them the "XCP toolstack" packages. And for a Debian host
> with the XCP toolstack installed, perhaps we should just call it a
> Kronos host? I'd like the name Kronos to drop away, but it seems like
> the easiest way to differentiate the two.
>
> Does anyone else have any suggestions?
>
XCP is Xen Cloud Platform, which means it provides ready-out-of-box
system. This includes every piece of current installation, includes
xs-tools.iso, pre-created iso sr and other stuff. When we talking about
toolstack it must be toolstack, not the 'platfrorm'. We can note XCP in
description, but definitively not in name.

In our internal documentation I usually call all stuff around xapi
(includes patched LVM, SM and so on) as xapi-toolstack. I think this
will make very easy to understand model.

+xend toolstack (Open Source, by community)
/
/
+----- XenServer (Proprientary, by Citrix)
/ + appiances ----+ -----Xen
Cloud Platform (Open Source, by Citrix)
/ /
Xen + xapi toolstack -----+ ------kronos (Open source, ... by community?)


If this looks ugly I've attach litte diagram in png. (If someone needs
for SVG, ask)
Attachments: xen-toolstacks.png (46.9 KB)


alex at seamicro

Dec 14, 2011, 10:39 AM

Post #13 of 23 (2463 views)
Permalink
Re: [Xen-users] New name for Kronos? [was XCP 1.5 availability] [In reply to]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: xen-api-bounces [at] lists [mailto:xen-api-
> bounces [at] lists] On Behalf Of George Shuklin
> Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 10:36 AM
> To: xen-api [at] lists
> Subject: Re: [Xen-API] [Xen-users] New name for Kronos? [was XCP 1.5
> availability]
>
> On 14.12.2011 21:28, Mike McClurg wrote:
> >> I think we should use the name "XCP" only for the appliance,
> >> and maybe just "XAPI toolstack" for the packages in Debian/Ubuntu?
> >>
> >> Does that make sense? Some people are getting confused about what XCP
is..
> >>
> > I think that does make sense, Pasi. For the Debian packages, I think
I'd
> > like to call them the "XCP toolstack" packages. And for a Debian host
> > with the XCP toolstack installed, perhaps we should just call it a
> > Kronos host? I'd like the name Kronos to drop away, but it seems like
> > the easiest way to differentiate the two.
> >
> > Does anyone else have any suggestions?
> >
> XCP is Xen Cloud Platform, which means it provides ready-out-of-box
> system. This includes every piece of current installation, includes
> xs-tools.iso, pre-created iso sr and other stuff. When we talking about
> toolstack it must be toolstack, not the 'platfrorm'. We can note XCP in
> description, but definitively not in name.
>
> In our internal documentation I usually call all stuff around xapi
> (includes patched LVM, SM and so on) as xapi-toolstack. I think this
> will make very easy to understand model.

+1


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xen-api mailing list
xen-api [at] lists
http://lists.xensource.com/mailman/listinfo/xen-api


pasik at iki

Dec 15, 2011, 4:01 AM

Post #14 of 23 (2454 views)
Permalink
Re: [Xen-users] New name for Kronos? [was XCP 1.5 availability] [In reply to]

On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 06:01:17PM +0000, Mike McClurg wrote:
> On 14/12/11 17:32, Alex Perez wrote:
> > I would go a single step further, and suggest that you not use the term
> > "XCP" at all in the context of Kronos. There's already pleeenty of
> > confusion about exactly what is what. Right now, XCP means one thing, and
> > I would implore you to keep it that way.
>
> One of the biggest effects of this confusion is that people are now
> worried that XCP will become completely unstable, like Fedora versus
> RHEL, and thus won't be suitable for serious enterprise deployments.
>
> Perhaps just calling it Kronos is a good idea. Though our packaging is
> nearly complete, and they are all prefixed with 'xcp-'... I suppose we
> can leave that as it is, since it is the XCP toolstack we're installing.
> Does anyone else feel this strongly about calling it Kronos, and NOT
> mentioning XCP?
>

Imho, if possible, the debian/ubuntu package names should be changed,
xcp- in the deb package names will cause a lot of confusion.

xapi- is better, or kronos-, for the deb packages.

I think 'xcp' should be used only for the .iso image appliance..

-- Pasi


_______________________________________________
xen-api mailing list
xen-api [at] lists
http://lists.xensource.com/mailman/listinfo/xen-api


mike.mcclurg at citrix

Dec 15, 2011, 5:08 AM

Post #15 of 23 (2457 views)
Permalink
Re: [Xen-users] New name for Kronos? [was XCP 1.5 availability] [In reply to]

On 15/12/11 12:01, Pasi Kärkkäinen wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 06:01:17PM +0000, Mike McClurg wrote:
>> On 14/12/11 17:32, Alex Perez wrote:
>>> I would go a single step further, and suggest that you not use the term
>>> "XCP" at all in the context of Kronos. There's already pleeenty of
>>> confusion about exactly what is what. Right now, XCP means one thing, and
>>> I would implore you to keep it that way.
>>
>> One of the biggest effects of this confusion is that people are now
>> worried that XCP will become completely unstable, like Fedora versus
>> RHEL, and thus won't be suitable for serious enterprise deployments.
>>
>> Perhaps just calling it Kronos is a good idea. Though our packaging is
>> nearly complete, and they are all prefixed with 'xcp-'... I suppose we
>> can leave that as it is, since it is the XCP toolstack we're installing.
>> Does anyone else feel this strongly about calling it Kronos, and NOT
>> mentioning XCP?
>>
>
> Imho, if possible, the debian/ubuntu package names should be changed,
> xcp- in the deb package names will cause a lot of confusion.
>
> xapi- is better, or kronos-, for the deb packages.
>
> I think 'xcp' should be used only for the .iso image appliance..
>

So, I hate to use this as an excuse, but there are actually already a
few of our Kronos packages in Debian Sid right now with the name xcp-*.
I actually think this is a good thing, because those packages are
software that came from XCP, so to me it makes sense to call the
packages xcp-blah.

How about this compromise: We call "traditional" XCP, the thing that's
based on CentOS and is delivered as a standalone ISO, the "XCP
Distribution". We can then call the Kronos packages, the set of software
that is installable on Debian and Ubuntu (and hopefully other distros in
the future), the "XCP Toolstack".

I think that this solution will remove some of the confusion about which
thing is which. Will this be an acceptable compromise to everyone?

Mike

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scottz at wi

Dec 15, 2011, 7:33 PM

Post #16 of 23 (2452 views)
Permalink
Re: [Xen-users] New name for Kronos? [was XCP 1.5 availability] [In reply to]

On 12/15/11 7:08 AM, Mike McClurg wrote:
> On 15/12/11 12:01, Pasi Kärkkäinen wrote:
>> On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 06:01:17PM +0000, Mike McClurg wrote:
>>> On 14/12/11 17:32, Alex Perez wrote:
>>>> I would go a single step further, and suggest that you not use the term
>>>> "XCP" at all in the context of Kronos. There's already pleeenty of
>>>> confusion about exactly what is what. Right now, XCP means one thing, and
>>>> I would implore you to keep it that way.
>>> One of the biggest effects of this confusion is that people are now
>>> worried that XCP will become completely unstable, like Fedora versus
>>> RHEL, and thus won't be suitable for serious enterprise deployments.
>>>
>>> Perhaps just calling it Kronos is a good idea. Though our packaging is
>>> nearly complete, and they are all prefixed with 'xcp-'... I suppose we
>>> can leave that as it is, since it is the XCP toolstack we're installing.
>>> Does anyone else feel this strongly about calling it Kronos, and NOT
>>> mentioning XCP?
>>>
>> Imho, if possible, the debian/ubuntu package names should be changed,
>> xcp- in the deb package names will cause a lot of confusion.
>>
>> xapi- is better, or kronos-, for the deb packages.
>>
>> I think 'xcp' should be used only for the .iso image appliance..
>>
> So, I hate to use this as an excuse, but there are actually already a
> few of our Kronos packages in Debian Sid right now with the name xcp-*.
> I actually think this is a good thing, because those packages are
> software that came from XCP, so to me it makes sense to call the
> packages xcp-blah.
>
> How about this compromise: We call "traditional" XCP, the thing that's
> based on CentOS and is delivered as a standalone ISO, the "XCP
> Distribution". We can then call the Kronos packages, the set of software
> that is installable on Debian and Ubuntu (and hopefully other distros in
> the future), the "XCP Toolstack".
>
> I think that this solution will remove some of the confusion about which
> thing is which. Will this be an acceptable compromise to everyone?
>
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> xen-api mailing list
> xen-api [at] lists
> http://lists.xensource.com/mailman/listinfo/xen-api
>
Okay I am pretty good at dumbing things down and being the dumb
guy(that's a skill, right?). Obvious this product/discussion isn't for
"i buy everything at best buy" clientele, but it should be relatively
easy to understand.

XCP is a platform to present, speed up, standardize and help manage
XEN-Hypervisor, correct? (no gui, just CLI)

Kronos is a toolstack to do what? Also help manage the XCP, which is on
top of Xen-Hypervisor, like XenCenter? If so, leave it at Kronos
(personally I know too many apps called Kronos, but i worked I.t. in a
mortgage company and all those apps had different weird names). If I am
right and Kronos is something to help manage Xen Hypervisor (with or
without XCP?) then I would name it SOMETHING to do with Xen but NOT XCP.
Maybe XronAPI or something.

If kronos is another layer AFTER XCP(and XCP is required) I would tie it
to XCP prefix. If XCP is not required, leave XCP alone. I, a
beginner/getting there XEN Hypervisor user, only used XCP because it was
the easiest to install and easiest to manage. I really don't like Xen
Center at all, but everything else was kind of a bust. And I tried and
searched for probably 20 hours straight.

So my opinion for what it's worth is I WANT A CLEAR DEFINITION OF WHAT
KRONOS is and how it's different from XCP and what are the benefits to a
normal admin (not a super high level Linux user). Does it REQUIRE XCP?
Sorry I am really trying to just help... sometimes when you are in the
thick of a project so long you forget just how confusing and deep it is
to everyone else.

Scott


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dave.whitla at ocean

Dec 16, 2011, 1:42 AM

Post #17 of 23 (2467 views)
Permalink
Re: [Xen-users] New name for Kronos? [was XCP 1.5 availability] [In reply to]

Not exactly.

Kronos is not a product, a toolstack, a piece of software or anything else.
Kronos is just the name of the project to port the xapi toolstack from XCP to other linux distros, starting with Debian.
IMHO the label Kronos does not belong in any package name.

I also think xcp does not belong in package names - too bad about the already released packages.
The way I see it XCP is just a linux distro, based on CentOS, with some unusual default packages installed.
XCP INCLUDES the xapi toolstack but neither one IS the other.
The xcp- prefix on the existing unstable packages does serve to group the related tools together though - so I suppose it adds some value.

The current state of Xen/XenServer/XCP/... is unfortunately alphabet soup. But once you do a little bit of reading to see how it all fits together, it makes enough sense not to change any of it.
A better use of peoples' energy might be to improve the documentation somewhat - particularly in so far as the xapi toolstack (as shipped by the Kronos project) differs from that found in XCP and XenServer.

My $0.05. (inflation)

Dave


On 16/12/2011, at 1:33 PM, Scott Zupek wrote:

> Okay I am pretty good at dumbing things down and being the dumb guy(that's a skill, right?). Obvious this product/discussion isn't for "i buy everything at best buy" clientele, but it should be relatively easy to understand.
>
> XCP is a platform to present, speed up, standardize and help manage XEN-Hypervisor, correct? (no gui, just CLI)
>
> Kronos is a toolstack to do what? Also help manage the XCP, which is on top of Xen-Hypervisor, like XenCenter? If so, leave it at Kronos (personally I know too many apps called Kronos, but i worked I.t. in a mortgage company and all those apps had different weird names). If I am right and Kronos is something to help manage Xen Hypervisor (with or without XCP?) then I would name it SOMETHING to do with Xen but NOT XCP. Maybe XronAPI or something.
>
> If kronos is another layer AFTER XCP(and XCP is required) I would tie it to XCP prefix. If XCP is not required, leave XCP alone. I, a beginner/getting there XEN Hypervisor user, only used XCP because it was the easiest to install and easiest to manage. I really don't like Xen Center at all, but everything else was kind of a bust. And I tried and searched for probably 20 hours straight.
>
> So my opinion for what it's worth is I WANT A CLEAR DEFINITION OF WHAT KRONOS is and how it's different from XCP and what are the benefits to a normal admin (not a super high level Linux user). Does it REQUIRE XCP? Sorry I am really trying to just help... sometimes when you are in the thick of a project so long you forget just how confusing and deep it is to everyone else.
>
> Scott
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> xen-api mailing list
> xen-api [at] lists
> http://lists.xensource.com/mailman/listinfo/xen-api


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wawrzek.niewodniczanski at citrix

Dec 16, 2011, 4:22 AM

Post #18 of 23 (2457 views)
Permalink
Re: [Xen-users] New name for Kronos? [was XCP 1.5 availability] [In reply to]

On 12/16/11 09:42, Dave Whitla wrote:

[...]
> I also think xcp does not belong in package names - too bad about the already released packages.
> The way I see it XCP is just a linux distro, based on CentOS, with some unusual default packages installed.
Contrary, for me current XCP is a (not the) Linux distribution with XAPI
toolstack. However, I have reached XCP from different angle than most of
you (I guess) -- via 'Kronos project'. Before the distro XCP was
something very cloudy me. Therefore, I like idea of XCP "to be
something" you can install on your Linux to change you system into "Xen
Cloud Platform" and the "XCP distro" to be a "reference implementation".

I can even image (and I was told is theoretical possible, however not
now) to have heterogeneous Linux distribution underling XCP.

> XCP INCLUDES the xapi toolstack but neither one IS the other.
> The xcp- prefix on the existing unstable packages does serve to group the related tools together though - so I suppose it adds some value.
I someone who currently fights with XCP installation is very big value.

Again, as SysAdmin I love the idea of typing:
{apt-get, yum, zypper} install xcp-full
to get good platform for a cloud service.


You can argue that xapi-full gives me the same value, but as SysAdmin
I'm more interested in effects I'll get rather than underling
technology. I'm not claming that every SysAdmin thinks the same, but
please remember that writing (and releasing) software you become engage
in communication with people who don't have your knowledge about the
whole background and quite often don't have too much spare time to
double check meaning of all works. So if I can ask the question. Is
"Project Kronos", in terms of communication with potential users, about
sending message: "You can have good API" or "you can have good Cloud
Platform"?

[...]

> A better use of peoples' energy might be to improve the documentation somewhat
[...]
That's true.

Thanks,
Wawrzek
--

Wawrzyniec (Wawrzek) Niewodniczański - 01223 435603 (35603) - wawrzekn
System Administrator - Engineering Services Team (XenServer)
Citrix Systems, Building 101, Cambridge Science Park, CB4 0FY, Cambridge
PhD in Quantum Chemistry, MSc in Molecular Engineering


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grantmasterflash at gmail

Dec 16, 2011, 6:48 AM

Post #19 of 23 (2421 views)
Permalink
Re: [Xen-users] New name for Kronos? [was XCP 1.5 availability] [In reply to]

My thoughts

Xen Cloud = Cloud built using XAPI and Xen Hypervisor
Xen Cloud Platform = Installable operating system providing Xen Cloud
Xen Cloud packages = Intallable packages to create Xen Cloud on Linux
(project Kronos)
*
*

Grant McWilliams
http://grantmcwilliams.com/

Some people, when confronted with a problem, think "I know, I'll use
Windows."
Now they have two problems.


todd.deshane at xen

Dec 16, 2011, 1:06 PM

Post #20 of 23 (2447 views)
Permalink
Re: [Xen-users] New name for Kronos? [was XCP 1.5 availability] [In reply to]

At the end of the day XCP, whether in the form of a pre-packaged
appliance distribution or installed on top of a standard Linux
distribution, is more than just Xen + XAPI. It's Xen + XAPI + xe +
Open vSwitch + (anything else needed to make it a great platform). So,
I tend to agree with Wawrzek in that there should be a meta package (a
package that has nothing in it, but depends on everything that should
be installed) called xcp-full (or xcp-system or whatever we decide).

The compromise that the packages are xcp-*, such as xcp-xapi seems OK,
since that is where they came from, but in the long run we need to
think clearly about version compatibility between xcp-xapi and any
other packaged versions of xapi that are being developed (not to imply
that xapi should be fragmented, see below). We really want to avoid
the XenCenter version mismatch issues in the future, especially when
xapi-based systems are being managed by a lot of different interfaces
OpenXenManager, OpenStack, Cloudstack, Zentific, to name a few.

Project Kronos (and that is all it should be - a project code name),
represents a great opportunity for the Xen community and I know that a
lot of people are excited about its future. There are some open
questions, but I think it is likely they will just work themselves out
just like any other open source project.

I think the use cases for xcp-full installed on a Xen dom0 via a
package install on a normal Linux distribution are clear and the
trade-offs have been discussed in some detail [1][2]. The great thing
about having the multiple different choices is one of the really great
thing about Xen. It is also perfectly reasonable for someone to build
an XCP distribution appliance based on Ubuntu or Debian or any other
distro (Citrix may even decide to use a different distro for the basis
of XenServer).

In practice, the xapi package should be the most cutting-edge version
of the API available, followed by xcp-xapi, which in practice will be
(at least currently is) the same as the XAPI version in XenServer.
Cutting-edge does not need to mean unstable, in fact I think it is
understood that regular stable versions of xapi will be available and
get integrated into XCP/XAPI-based distributions (like XCP and
XenServer) as the maintainers of those projects/products see fit.

As long as xapi remains unified, there is no fragmentation. When
working with a custom XCP, XCP itself, or XenServer the question will
be what version of XAPI is available? This will determine the feature
set available underneath. This is the way management tools like
XenCenter, CloudStack etc. *should* work. We need to move away from
relying on a specific version of XCP, XenServer, etc. and instead rely
on specific feature sets or versions of xapi itself.

I propose that at some point over the course of this year (after an
official release of Project Kronos is out the door) that we have a
XAPI/XCP hackathon. We can invite XAPI/XCP devs to it and also have a
devops-based track that proposes projects based on custom XCP(-full)
setups that may or may not need explicit help from XAPI itself. I
invite you to start brainstorming ideas, but while you do that check
out the great material that came out of the Xen Day [3] last week.
This material will inspire you to want to hack on xapi, or write
scripts for it, or create your own HA/FT solution based on DRDB and
pacemaker.

The momentum around XAPI/XCP is ours to take into the future of the
data center and the cloud. Go forth and use XCP or xcp-xapi, or choose
to get support from a vendor like Citrix and run XenServer.

...What are you going to build today?

[1] http://www.slideshare.net/deshantm/project-kronos-openstackdesignsummit
[2] http://www.slideshare.net/deshantm/why-choose-xen-for-your-cloud
[3] http://xen.org/community/xenday11.html

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scottz at wi

Dec 16, 2011, 9:34 PM

Post #21 of 23 (2459 views)
Permalink
Re: [Xen-users] New name for Kronos? [was XCP 1.5 availability] [In reply to]

On 12/16/11 3:06 PM, Todd Deshane wrote:
> At the end of the day XCP, whether in the form of a pre-packaged
> appliance distribution or installed on top of a standard Linux
> distribution, is more than just Xen + XAPI. It's Xen + XAPI + xe +
> Open vSwitch + (anything else needed to make it a great platform). So,
> I tend to agree with Wawrzek in that there should be a meta package (a
> package that has nothing in it, but depends on everything that should
> be installed) called xcp-full (or xcp-system or whatever we decide).
>
> The compromise that the packages are xcp-*, such as xcp-xapi seems OK,
> since that is where they came from, but in the long run we need to
> think clearly about version compatibility between xcp-xapi and any
> other packaged versions of xapi that are being developed (not to imply
> that xapi should be fragmented, see below). We really want to avoid
> the XenCenter version mismatch issues in the future, especially when
> xapi-based systems are being managed by a lot of different interfaces
> OpenXenManager, OpenStack, Cloudstack, Zentific, to name a few.
>
> Project Kronos (and that is all it should be - a project code name),
> represents a great opportunity for the Xen community and I know that a
> lot of people are excited about its future. There are some open
> questions, but I think it is likely they will just work themselves out
> just like any other open source project.
>
> I think the use cases for xcp-full installed on a Xen dom0 via a
> package install on a normal Linux distribution are clear and the
> trade-offs have been discussed in some detail [1][2]. The great thing
> about having the multiple different choices is one of the really great
> thing about Xen. It is also perfectly reasonable for someone to build
> an XCP distribution appliance based on Ubuntu or Debian or any other
> distro (Citrix may even decide to use a different distro for the basis
> of XenServer).
>
> In practice, the xapi package should be the most cutting-edge version
> of the API available, followed by xcp-xapi, which in practice will be
> (at least currently is) the same as the XAPI version in XenServer.
> Cutting-edge does not need to mean unstable, in fact I think it is
> understood that regular stable versions of xapi will be available and
> get integrated into XCP/XAPI-based distributions (like XCP and
> XenServer) as the maintainers of those projects/products see fit.
>
> As long as xapi remains unified, there is no fragmentation. When
> working with a custom XCP, XCP itself, or XenServer the question will
> be what version of XAPI is available? This will determine the feature
> set available underneath. This is the way management tools like
> XenCenter, CloudStack etc. *should* work. We need to move away from
> relying on a specific version of XCP, XenServer, etc. and instead rely
> on specific feature sets or versions of xapi itself.
>
> I propose that at some point over the course of this year (after an
> official release of Project Kronos is out the door) that we have a
> XAPI/XCP hackathon. We can invite XAPI/XCP devs to it and also have a
> devops-based track that proposes projects based on custom XCP(-full)
> setups that may or may not need explicit help from XAPI itself. I
> invite you to start brainstorming ideas, but while you do that check
> out the great material that came out of the Xen Day [3] last week.
> This material will inspire you to want to hack on xapi, or write
> scripts for it, or create your own HA/FT solution based on DRDB and
> pacemaker.
>
> The momentum around XAPI/XCP is ours to take into the future of the
> data center and the cloud. Go forth and use XCP or xcp-xapi, or choose
> to get support from a vendor like Citrix and run XenServer.
>
> ...What are you going to build today?
>
> [1] http://www.slideshare.net/deshantm/project-kronos-openstackdesignsummit
> [2] http://www.slideshare.net/deshantm/why-choose-xen-for-your-cloud
> [3] http://xen.org/community/xenday11.html
>
> _______________________________________________
> xen-api mailing list
> xen-api [at] lists
> http://lists.xensource.com/mailman/listinfo/xen-api
>

This article is brings up a good point about XEN and the
writers/professionals believed view of it being gone in 10 years.

http://www.networkworld.com/news/2011/121311-hypervisor-roundtable-253986.html


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grantmasterflash at gmail

Dec 17, 2011, 12:11 AM

Post #22 of 23 (2409 views)
Permalink
Re: [Xen-users] New name for Kronos? [was XCP 1.5 availability] [In reply to]

>
>
> This article is brings up a good point about XEN and the
> writers/professionals believed view of it being gone in 10 years.
>
> http://www.networkworld.com/**news/2011/121311-hypervisor-**
> roundtable-253986.html<http://www.networkworld.com/news/2011/121311-hypervisor-roundtable-253986.html>
>
>
>
>
Do people even care about the Hypervisor anymore? As Linus once said about
the kernel "Some day people will realize the kernel doesn't matter
anymore". May not be a direct quote.

I think most of the top Hypervisors are equally capable and it's the
management stacks around them that's truly important. In 10 years all of
the current hypervisors may be gone. Who knows.


Grant McWilliams
http://grantmcwilliams.com/

Some people, when confronted with a problem, think "I know, I'll use
Windows."
Now they have two problems.


dave.whitla at ocean

Dec 18, 2011, 3:45 PM

Post #23 of 23 (2400 views)
Permalink
Re: [Xen-users] New name for Kronos? [was XCP 1.5 availability] [In reply to]

Most telling was Al Gillen's complete misunderstanding of the difference between the Xen packages such as the hypervisor itself and the canned distros which bundle the Xen hypervisor.
He cited fragmentation in the codebase being a maintenance impediment to Xen.
Because analysts don't actually know anything about the implementation of things they make completely erroneous and misleading public statements.
But, to cover their arses, they pick ludicrously long prediction timeframes. Ten years in IT is an eon.

Dave

On 17/12/2011, at 3:34 PM, Scott Zupek wrote:

>
> This article is brings up a good point about XEN and the writers/professionals believed view of it being gone in 10 years.
>
> http://www.networkworld.com/news/2011/121311-hypervisor-roundtable-253986.html
>


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