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mah at everybody

Aug 27, 2012, 5:43 PM

Post #1 of 10 (1672 views)
Permalink
MediaWiki Foundation (was Re: CentralAuth API access)

On 08/27/2012 12:04 AM, Daniel Friesen wrote:
> We need some sort of think tank (well some thing with a better name)
> non-profit that people donate to. To have it hire people to crank out
> MediaWiki features outside of just the stuff WMF wants.
>
> I'd love to spend 80% of my time cranking out fringe MediaWiki features
> where what the community wants and what my specialties are intersect.
>

To borrow from the great Amir: +[[Crore]]



--
http://hexmode.com/

Human evil is not a problem. It is a mystery. It cannot be solved.
-- When Atheism Becomes a Religion, Chris Hedges

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z at mzmcbride

Aug 27, 2012, 5:58 PM

Post #2 of 10 (1592 views)
Permalink
Re: MediaWiki Foundation (was Re: CentralAuth API access) [In reply to]

Mark A. Hershberger wrote:
> On 08/27/2012 12:04 AM, Daniel Friesen wrote:
>> We need some sort of think tank (well some thing with a better name)
>> non-profit that people donate to. To have it hire people to crank out
>> MediaWiki features outside of just the stuff WMF wants.
>>
>> I'd love to spend 80% of my time cranking out fringe MediaWiki features
>> where what the community wants and what my specialties are intersect.
>>
>
> To borrow from the great Amir: +[[Crore]]

Yes, what the world needs is another horribly confusingly named foundation.
After we establish the MediaWiki Foundation, we can start work on the
MikiWedia Foundation and the WediaMiki Foundation. ;-)

In all seriousness, this has come up a few times before (on wikitech-l and
mediawiki-l, I believe) and it deserves thoughtful consideration. I think
the first step is to write a draft somewhere on MediaWiki.org detailing:

* what you view as the current deficiencies of the Wikimedia Foundation
owning/operating MediaWiki; and

* what possible problems might be solved (or created!) by the establishment
of a MediaWiki Foundation.

A discussion of some analogous organizations (such as Mozilla) might be good
as case studies to include in such a page as well.

MZMcBride



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daniel at nadir-seen-fire

Aug 31, 2012, 12:08 AM

Post #3 of 10 (1581 views)
Permalink
Re: MediaWiki Foundation (was Re: CentralAuth API access) [In reply to]

On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 17:58:56 -0700, MZMcBride <z [at] mzmcbride> wrote:

> Mark A. Hershberger wrote:
>> On 08/27/2012 12:04 AM, Daniel Friesen wrote:
>>> We need some sort of think tank (well some thing with a better name)
>>> non-profit that people donate to. To have it hire people to crank out
>>> MediaWiki features outside of just the stuff WMF wants.
>>>
>>> I'd love to spend 80% of my time cranking out fringe MediaWiki features
>>> where what the community wants and what my specialties are intersect.
>>>
>>
>> To borrow from the great Amir: +[[Crore]]
>
> Yes, what the world needs is another horribly confusingly named
> foundation.
> After we establish the MediaWiki Foundation, we can start work on the
> MikiWedia Foundation and the WediaMiki Foundation. ;-)
>
> In all seriousness, this has come up a few times before (on wikitech-l
> and
> mediawiki-l, I believe) and it deserves thoughtful consideration. I think
> the first step is to write a draft somewhere on MediaWiki.org detailing:
>
> * what you view as the current deficiencies of the Wikimedia Foundation
> owning/operating MediaWiki; and
>
> * what possible problems might be solved (or created!) by the
> establishment
> of a MediaWiki Foundation.
>
> A discussion of some analogous organizations (such as Mozilla) might be
> good
> as case studies to include in such a page as well.
>
> MZMcBride

As you command oh great catalyst[1].
Done in true developer style "[RFC] MediaWiki Foundation":
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/MediaWiki_Foundation


[1] Hope you don't mind. I found it amusing. And it kind of fits in a
positive way.
--
~Daniel Friesen (Dantman, Nadir-Seen-Fire) [http://daniel.friesen.name]

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z at mzmcbride

Sep 1, 2012, 7:42 PM

Post #4 of 10 (1598 views)
Permalink
Re: MediaWiki Foundation (was Re: CentralAuth API access) [In reply to]

Daniel Friesen wrote:
> Done in true developer style "[RFC] MediaWiki Foundation":
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/MediaWiki_Foundation

Thank you for this! This is exactly what I had in mind.

It's interesting, with a lot of (proposed) non-profits, the biggest concerns
are engaging volunteers and generating income. With this proposed
foundation, I think most of the typical concerns aren't in play. Instead, as
Nikerabbit so deftly commented on the RFC's talk page, the big question is:

What projects would a MediaWiki Foundation work on and how would those
projects be chosen?

This seems to be _the_ crucial issue. Getting grants from the Wikimedia
Foundation or Wikia or others doesn't seem like it'd be very difficult.
Assuming there was broad support for the creation of such a foundation from
active MediaWiki developers (and related stakeholders), getting the
Wikimedia Foundation to release the trademark and domain also doesn't seem
like it would be very difficult. But there's a huge unresolved question
about how, out of the infinite number of project ideas, a MediaWiki
Foundation would choose which ideas to financially support.

> As you command oh great catalyst[1].
> [1] Hope you don't mind. I found it amusing. And it kind of fits in a
> positive way.

Cute. :-)

MZMcBride



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gregory.varnum at gmail

Sep 3, 2012, 11:10 AM

Post #5 of 10 (1567 views)
Permalink
Re: MediaWiki Foundation (was Re: CentralAuth API access) [In reply to]

I'll post more on the RFC, but I wonder if an entity within WMF would be more appropriate and realistic. Utilizing the existing operations structure would be far easier. Perhaps setup something like FDC to oversee priorities and funds.

My hunch is WMF would be far more likely to sign off on something they retain a sense of sign-off on for the sake of maintaining the WMF projects than having to deal with an independent entity that would have the legal right to go rogue one day and not do what's in the best interest of the WMF projects. I recognize to some extent that's the point, but looking down a 5 year road of possibilities, is that something we'd ever want to happen? My feeling is no and allowing WMF to maintain some level of authority in the development of MediaWiki is in our collective best interests. From project management, fundraising, usability, system resources and paid developer support perspective.

I would instead propose a MediaWiki department or collective (insert your favorite term here).

-Greg aka varnent

____________
Sent from my iPhone. Apologies for any typos. A more detailed response may be sent later.

On Sep 1, 2012, at 10:42 PM, MZMcBride <z [at] mzmcbride> wrote:

> Daniel Friesen wrote:
>> Done in true developer style "[RFC] MediaWiki Foundation":
>> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/MediaWiki_Foundation
>
> Thank you for this! This is exactly what I had in mind.
>
> It's interesting, with a lot of (proposed) non-profits, the biggest concerns
> are engaging volunteers and generating income. With this proposed
> foundation, I think most of the typical concerns aren't in play. Instead, as
> Nikerabbit so deftly commented on the RFC's talk page, the big question is:
>
> What projects would a MediaWiki Foundation work on and how would those
> projects be chosen?
>
> This seems to be _the_ crucial issue. Getting grants from the Wikimedia
> Foundation or Wikia or others doesn't seem like it'd be very difficult.
> Assuming there was broad support for the creation of such a foundation from
> active MediaWiki developers (and related stakeholders), getting the
> Wikimedia Foundation to release the trademark and domain also doesn't seem
> like it would be very difficult. But there's a huge unresolved question
> about how, out of the infinite number of project ideas, a MediaWiki
> Foundation would choose which ideas to financially support.
>
>> As you command oh great catalyst[1].
>> [1] Hope you don't mind. I found it amusing. And it kind of fits in a
>> positive way.
>
> Cute. :-)
>
> MZMcBride
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l [at] lists
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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orenbochman at gmail

Sep 3, 2012, 12:59 PM

Post #6 of 10 (1585 views)
Permalink
Re: MediaWiki Foundation (was Re: CentralAuth API access) [In reply to]

A number of comments:

1. The community is an a massive untapped resource for development. (They
like to edit wikis, upload photos and also to code....)
e.g. The amount of Template Code in about 20 times the size of
MediaWiki code base.
2. I would seriouly look at maximizing its potential before allocating more
funds for paid devlopment.
2.1 This means making it much easier to develop/test/deploy to Live wikis.
(Short Tutorials, Code Samples, Documentation)
2.2 Create a culture where new coders are assigned to work with experinced
coders to fix and maintaining existing code.
2.3 Motivating paid developer to work (i.e. review and direct) the
community....
2.4 Team up with Wikia and WikiHow Devteams on common features and on small
wiki testing.
3. Looking at the metrics - The Mediawiki team is still not setup to do
developement like other leading Open Souce development communities.
Git is a step in the right direction but - the agility of the teams is
too low to collaborate at the levels required.
to accept "AnonymousDonation" of source from the community.
While I applud Sumana who does a great job with the community - this
works needs to be followed though organicaly by all members of the
development teams
or we will continue sending the community the message - that we prefer
to delay fixing bugs, pay a premiunm for new features etc ...
4. Only once such issues are adressed would it become productive to engage
more developers with WMF or external funding.
5. The one point I do agree with is that features the community asks for
should be given due proirity and this process should be more transparent.

Oren Bochman


On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 8:10 PM, Mr. Gregory Varnum <gregory.varnum [at] gmail
> wrote:

> I'll post more on the RFC, but I wonder if an entity within WMF would be
> more appropriate and realistic. Utilizing the existing operations structure
> would be far easier. Perhaps setup something like FDC to oversee priorities
> and funds.
>
> My hunch is WMF would be far more likely to sign off on something they
> retain a sense of sign-off on for the sake of maintaining the WMF projects
> than having to deal with an independent entity that would have the legal
> right to go rogue one day and not do what's in the best interest of the WMF
> projects. I recognize to some extent that's the point, but looking down a 5
> year road of possibilities, is that something we'd ever want to happen? My
> feeling is no and allowing WMF to maintain some level of authority in the
> development of MediaWiki is in our collective best interests. From project
> management, fundraising, usability, system resources and paid developer
> support perspective.
>
> I would instead propose a MediaWiki department or collective (insert your
> favorite term here).
>
> -Greg aka varnent
>
> ____________
> Sent from my iPhone. Apologies for any typos. A more detailed response may
> be sent later.
>
> On Sep 1, 2012, at 10:42 PM, MZMcBride <z [at] mzmcbride> wrote:
>
> > Daniel Friesen wrote:
> >> Done in true developer style "[RFC] MediaWiki Foundation":
> >>
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/MediaWiki_Foundation
> >
> > Thank you for this! This is exactly what I had in mind.
> >
> > It's interesting, with a lot of (proposed) non-profits, the biggest
> concerns
> > are engaging volunteers and generating income. With this proposed
> > foundation, I think most of the typical concerns aren't in play.
> Instead, as
> > Nikerabbit so deftly commented on the RFC's talk page, the big question
> is:
> >
> > What projects would a MediaWiki Foundation work on and how would those
> > projects be chosen?
> >
> > This seems to be _the_ crucial issue. Getting grants from the Wikimedia
> > Foundation or Wikia or others doesn't seem like it'd be very difficult.
> > Assuming there was broad support for the creation of such a foundation
> from
> > active MediaWiki developers (and related stakeholders), getting the
> > Wikimedia Foundation to release the trademark and domain also doesn't
> seem
> > like it would be very difficult. But there's a huge unresolved question
> > about how, out of the infinite number of project ideas, a MediaWiki
> > Foundation would choose which ideas to financially support.
> >
> >> As you command oh great catalyst[1].
> >> [1] Hope you don't mind. I found it amusing. And it kind of fits in a
> >> positive way.
> >
> > Cute. :-)
> >
> > MZMcBride
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > Wikitech-l [at] lists
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l [at] lists
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>



--

Oren Bochman

Office tel. 061 4921492
Mobile +36 30 866 6706
skype id: orenbochman
e-mail: oren [at] romai-horizon
site http://www.riverport.hu
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matma.rex at gmail

Sep 3, 2012, 1:40 PM

Post #7 of 10 (1562 views)
Permalink
Re: MediaWiki Foundation (was Re: CentralAuth API access) [In reply to]

As a new MediaWiki developer (8 merged commits right now,
https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/dashboard/417) and an experienced
template and Gadget developer on pl.wikipedia
(https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedysta:Matma_Rex):

2012/9/3 Oren Bochman <orenbochman [at] gmail>:
> 1. The community is an a massive untapped resource for development. (They
> like to edit wikis, upload photos and also to code....)

Totally this. Don't also forget about non-English wikis; there are
many JavaScript programmers and tools developers who for various
reasons do not look into MediaWiki itself. (I used to be one until
recently.)


> 2. I would seriouly look at maximizing its potential before allocating more
> funds for paid devlopment.
> 2.1 This means making it much easier to develop/test/deploy to Live wikis.
> (Short Tutorials, Code Samples, Documentation)
> 2.2 Create a culture where new coders are assigned to work with experinced
> coders to fix and maintaining existing code.
> 2.4 Team up with Wikia and WikiHow Devteams on common features and on small
> wiki testing.

All this could be great, but for me the worst "obstacle" is the
glacial pace of gerrit review. As a template/gadget developer I'm used
to a quick cycle: code, preview (a template) or test in debugger
(gadget), look at it for five more minutes to maybe catch some stupid
mistakes, and press Save (of course, I also used dev versions of
scripts or templates' sandboxes for non-trivial changes).

With gerrit, I code, check, check on my testwiki, git review (and by
god, is that tool a total kludge!), and then I wait for days for
someone to look at my changes, or head to #mediawiki and beg for
reviews (and apparently the channel is half-dead; is it supposed to be
a support channel? Because sometimes I'm the only one replying to
newcomers there...). It sometimes looks like all the experienced MW
developers are just reviewing each other's changes.

Then someone complains (sometimes about something pointless, or
something they could fix themselves in thirty seconds and submit a
patchset), I code again, git review again, and wait again.

(I don't mean this all personally, to anyone.)


> While I applud Sumana who does a great job with the community - this
> works needs to be followed though organicaly by all members of the
> development teams

Let me just say that I basically love Sumana already, for her help and
encouragement. :)


Also. gerrit is absolute load of poop. The web UI kinda sucks (but we
all know this already, don't we?), but my real beef is with the
git-review tool. I'm semi-experienced with git, and rebases are not a
scare to me; but if it keeps complaining about multiple commits to be
sent when I only have a single new one, and if something as simple as
creating a commit that depends on two other unmerged commits requires
this much arcane magic, and if I can't post a review to go along with
my patchset, and if it requires hand-applied patches (!) to work
properly on Windows, then something is deeply wrong. I can only
imagine what kind of torture using it must be to someone just starting
out with git (or, worse, source control).

-- Matma Rex

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daniel at nadir-seen-fire

Sep 3, 2012, 1:57 PM

Post #8 of 10 (1566 views)
Permalink
Re: MediaWiki Foundation (was Re: CentralAuth API access) [In reply to]

On Mon, 03 Sep 2012 12:59:19 -0700, Oren Bochman <orenbochman [at] gmail>
wrote:

> A number of comments:
>
> 1. The community is an a massive untapped resource for development. (They
> like to edit wikis, upload photos and also to code....)
> e.g. The amount of Template Code in about 20 times the size of
> MediaWiki code base.
> 2. I would seriouly look at maximizing its potential before allocating
> more
> funds for paid devlopment.
Volunteers have very little spare time, WMF employees' 20% time is also
small, many of our bugs and large features are not useful to WMF's goal,
and many of them are large enough simply by unavoidable fact that people
avoid starting them when they only have spare time to work with.

How is trying to 'maximize [the] potential' of an unrewarded group of
people -- who are here on their own terms, not to be expected anything of
-- going to help when many of the features we're expecting to get done are
too big for someone to do in their spare time?

We can try to fix the issues with getting the community involved. But I do
not believe that doing that excludes also fixing the gap we have of people
who have enough time to complete the large features we are missing. They
are not mutually exclusive so there is nothing stopping us from doing both.

> 2.1 This means making it much easier to develop/test/deploy to Live
> wikis.
> (Short Tutorials, Code Samples, Documentation)
> 2.2 Create a culture where new coders are assigned to work with
> experinced
> coders to fix and maintaining existing code.
> 2.3 Motivating paid developer to work (i.e. review and direct) the
> community....
> 2.4 Team up with Wikia and WikiHow Devteams on common features and on
> small
> wiki testing.
Wikia has been trying to get some of their tweaks in lately. But in
general they build custom stuff for anything they want. I'm not sure how
much we can even collaborate with them on.

> 3. Looking at the metrics - The Mediawiki team is still not setup to do
> developement like other leading Open Souce development communities.
> Git is a step in the right direction but - the agility of the teams
> is
> too low to collaborate at the levels required.
> to accept "AnonymousDonation" of source from the community.
> While I applud Sumana who does a great job with the community - this
> works needs to be followed though organicaly by all members of the
> development teams
> or we will continue sending the community the message - that we
> prefer
> to delay fixing bugs, pay a premiunm for new features etc ...
This could be aided by having a MediaWiki Foundation, rather than be a
reason to not have one.
If the community had an idea of what replacement for Gerrit would work the
foundation could hire someone to make it into something that could replace
Gerrit and improve the experience.

If there were a MediaWiki Foundation and people liked my Gareth idea, I
wouldn't be opposed to working semi-full-time to turn it into a
ready-to-use piece of software.

> 4. Only once such issues are adressed would it become productive to
> engage
> more developers with WMF or external funding.
> 5. The one point I do agree with is that features the community asks for
> should be given due proirity and this process should be more transparent.
>
> Oren Bochman
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 8:10 PM, Mr. Gregory Varnum
> <gregory.varnum [at] gmail
>> wrote:
>
>> I'll post more on the RFC, but I wonder if an entity within WMF would be
>> more appropriate and realistic. Utilizing the existing operations
>> structure
>> would be far easier. Perhaps setup something like FDC to oversee
>> priorities
>> and funds.
>>
>> My hunch is WMF would be far more likely to sign off on something they
>> retain a sense of sign-off on for the sake of maintaining the WMF
>> projects
>> than having to deal with an independent entity that would have the legal
>> right to go rogue one day and not do what's in the best interest of the
>> WMF
>> projects. I recognize to some extent that's the point, but looking down
>> a 5
>> year road of possibilities, is that something we'd ever want to
>> happen? My
>> feeling is no and allowing WMF to maintain some level of authority in
>> the
>> development of MediaWiki is in our collective best interests. From
>> project
>> management, fundraising, usability, system resources and paid developer
>> support perspective.
>>
>> I would instead propose a MediaWiki department or collective (insert
>> your
>> favorite term here).
>>
>> -Greg aka varnent
>>
>> ____________
>> Sent from my iPhone. Apologies for any typos. A more detailed response
>> may
>> be sent later.
>>
>> On Sep 1, 2012, at 10:42 PM, MZMcBride <z [at] mzmcbride> wrote:
>>
>> > Daniel Friesen wrote:
>> >> Done in true developer style "[RFC] MediaWiki Foundation":
>> >>
>> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/MediaWiki_Foundation
>> >
>> > Thank you for this! This is exactly what I had in mind.
>> >
>> > It's interesting, with a lot of (proposed) non-profits, the biggest
>> concerns
>> > are engaging volunteers and generating income. With this proposed
>> > foundation, I think most of the typical concerns aren't in play.
>> Instead, as
>> > Nikerabbit so deftly commented on the RFC's talk page, the big
>> question
>> is:
>> >
>> > What projects would a MediaWiki Foundation work on and how would those
>> > projects be chosen?
>> >
>> > This seems to be _the_ crucial issue. Getting grants from the
>> Wikimedia
>> > Foundation or Wikia or others doesn't seem like it'd be very
>> difficult.
>> > Assuming there was broad support for the creation of such a foundation
>> from
>> > active MediaWiki developers (and related stakeholders), getting the
>> > Wikimedia Foundation to release the trademark and domain also doesn't
>> seem
>> > like it would be very difficult. But there's a huge unresolved
>> question
>> > about how, out of the infinite number of project ideas, a MediaWiki
>> > Foundation would choose which ideas to financially support.
>> >
>> >> As you command oh great catalyst[1].
>> >> [1] Hope you don't mind. I found it amusing. And it kind of fits in a
>> >> positive way.
>> >
>> > Cute. :-)
>> >
>> > MZMcBride
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Wikitech-l mailing list
>> > Wikitech-l [at] lists
>> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>> Wikitech-l [at] lists
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>>
>
>
>


--
~Daniel Friesen (Dantman, Nadir-Seen-Fire) [http://daniel.friesen.name]

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mah at everybody

Sep 4, 2012, 6:23 PM

Post #9 of 10 (1568 views)
Permalink
Re: MediaWiki Foundation (was Re: CentralAuth API access) [In reply to]

On 09/03/2012 03:59 PM, Oren Bochman wrote:
> e.g. The amount of Template Code in about 20 times the size of
> MediaWiki code base.

[Citation Needed]

This number fascinates me. It isn't that I doubt it, but could you cite
a source?

Perhaps it is because so much of my time has been spent as a staffer
that I'm not aware of the source.

> 2. I would seriously look at maximizing [the community's] potential
> before allocating more funds for paid development.

Are you sure that potential hasn't already been maximized? We have a
great thing here with MediaWiki. There are already a lot of passionate
developers involved.

Daniel Friesen (a major community developer) has already said that he
would like to see this happen so he could spend *more* time on MediaWiki
projects.

I've left Wikimedia but I still find time to contribute. I can assure
you that there would be a lot more time for me to contribute if I could
point to a fungible benefit for my contribution.

> 2.1 This means making it much easier to develop/test/deploy to Live
> wikis. (Short Tutorials, Code Samples, Documentation)
> 2.2 Create a culture where new coders are assigned to work with experienced
> coders to fix and maintaining existing code.
> 2.3 Motivating paid developer to work (i.e. review and direct) the
> community....
> 2.4 Team up with Wikia and WikiHow Devteams on common features and on small
> wiki testing.

I think all these are all great ideas. I eagerly await their
implementation.

> 3. Looking at the metrics - The Mediawiki team is still not setup to do
> development like other leading Open Souce development communities.

[Citation Needed]

You seem to have metrics I am not aware of.

Also, no other Open Source community has such a large website
(Wikipedia) to display its end product. Sure, you could say that lots
of them run Linux, but that isn't anywhere as close to what the user
sees as MediaWiki is.

Mark.

--
http://hexmode.com/

Human evil is not a problem. It is a mystery. It cannot be solved.
-- When Atheism Becomes a Religion, Chris Hedges

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brion at pobox

Sep 11, 2012, 2:39 PM

Post #10 of 10 (1481 views)
Permalink
Re: MediaWiki Foundation (was Re: CentralAuth API access) [In reply to]

On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 12:08 AM, Daniel Friesen <daniel [at] nadir-seen-fire
> wrote:

> Done in true developer style "[RFC] MediaWiki Foundation":
> https://www.mediawiki.org/**wiki/Requests_for_comment/**
> MediaWiki_Foundation<https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/MediaWiki_Foundation>
>

Some of us chatted on this subject at the tech portion of WMF's all-staff
meetings today; while we didn't come to any firm conclusions at this time
there's definitely a lot of interest in:

* improving 3rd-party support (installer, dependencies, various features)
* getting existing people doing support and contracting more organized
* improving distro packages and packaging support
* getting big MW users/customizers to share code a bit more (real-world
example: WMF and Wikia are collaborating on the visual editor project
rather than working on separate incompatible versions)

I definitely want to keep the ideas and discussion flowing, especially from
anybody who's already doing 3rd-party support and is interested in
organizing a bit more. I've pointed people at the RFC page and hope for
more good to come!

-- brion
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