Login | Register For Free | Help
Search for: (Advanced)

Mailing List Archive: Wikipedia: Wikitech

bot activity in #mediawiki on freenode

 

 

First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All Wikipedia wikitech RSS feed   Index | Next | Previous | View Threaded


btb at bitrate

Jun 21, 2012, 8:01 AM

Post #1 of 48 (1615 views)
Permalink
bot activity in #mediawiki on freenode

hi-

i'm hopeful this is the appropriate venue for this topic - i recently
had occasion to visit #mediawiki on freenode, looking for help. i found
myself a bit frustrated by the amount of bot activity there and wondered
if there might be value in some consideration for this. it seems to
frequently drown out/dilute those asking for help, which can be a bit
discouraging/frustrating. additionally, from the perspective of those
who might help [based on my experience in this role in other channels],
constant activity can sometimes engender disinterest [.e.g. the irc
client shows activity in the channel, but i'm less inclined to look as
it's probably just a bot].

to offer one possibility - i know there are a number of mediawiki and/or
wikimedia related channels - might there be one in which bot activity
might be better suited, in the context of less contention between the
two audiences [those seeking help vs. those interested in development,
etc]? one nomenclature convention that seems to be at least somewhat of
a defacto standard is #project for general help, and #project-dev[el]
for development topics. a few examples of this i've seen are android,
libreoffice, python, and asterisk. adding yet another channel to this
list might not be terribly welcome, but maybe the distinction would be
worth the addition?

as i'm writing this, i see another thread has begun wrt freenode, and i
also see a bug filed that relates at least to some degree
[https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35427], so i may just be
repeating an existing sentiment, but i wanted to at least offer a brief
perspective.

regards
-ben

_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l [at] lists
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


benapetr at gmail

Jun 21, 2012, 8:13 AM

Post #2 of 48 (1616 views)
Permalink
Re: bot activity in #mediawiki on freenode [In reply to]

That's what I said this week, we should make #mediawiki-feed where all
bots would live and leave #mediawiki for humans

On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 5:01 PM, btb <btb [at] bitrate> wrote:
> hi-
>
> i'm hopeful this is the appropriate venue for this topic - i recently had
> occasion to visit #mediawiki on freenode, looking for help. i found myself a
> bit frustrated by the amount of bot activity there and wondered if there
> might be value in some consideration for this.  it seems to frequently drown
> out/dilute those asking for help, which can be a bit
> discouraging/frustrating.  additionally, from the perspective of those who
> might help [based on my experience in this role in other channels], constant
> activity can sometimes engender disinterest [.e.g. the irc client shows
> activity in the channel, but i'm less inclined to look as it's probably just
> a bot].
>
> to offer one possibility - i know there are a number of mediawiki and/or
> wikimedia related channels - might there be one in which bot activity might
> be better suited, in the context of less contention between the two
> audiences [those seeking help vs. those interested in development, etc]?
>  one nomenclature convention that seems to be at least somewhat of a defacto
> standard is #project for general help, and #project-dev[el] for development
> topics.  a few examples of this i've seen are android, libreoffice, python,
> and asterisk.  adding yet another channel to this list might not be terribly
> welcome, but maybe the distinction would be worth the addition?
>
> as i'm writing this, i see another thread has begun wrt freenode, and i also
> see a bug filed that relates at least to some degree
> [https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35427], so i may just be
> repeating an existing sentiment, but i wanted to at least offer a brief
> perspective.
>
> regards
> -ben
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l [at] lists
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l [at] lists
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


innocentkiller at gmail

Jun 21, 2012, 8:17 AM

Post #3 of 48 (1566 views)
Permalink
Re: bot activity in #mediawiki on freenode [In reply to]

On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 11:13 AM, Petr Bena <benapetr [at] gmail> wrote:
> That's what I said this week, we should make #mediawiki-feed where all
> bots would live and leave #mediawiki for humans
>

The important thing to do is to make the bots channel +m, so only
the bots can talk. Otherwise, development discussion will follow to
the new channel and this is a bad thing.

-Chad

_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l [at] lists
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


rlane32 at gmail

Jun 21, 2012, 8:23 AM

Post #4 of 48 (1559 views)
Permalink
Re: bot activity in #mediawiki on freenode [In reply to]

> The important thing to do is to make the bots channel +m, so only
> the bots can talk. Otherwise, development discussion will follow to
> the new channel and this is a bad thing.
>

+10000. Splitting devs way from support means support questions go
unanswered by devs. As long as we aren't splitting the discussion up
into multiple channels it sounds like a good solution.

- Ryan

_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l [at] lists
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


datzrott at alizeepathology

Jun 21, 2012, 8:25 AM

Post #5 of 48 (1570 views)
Permalink
Re: bot activity in #mediawiki on freenode [In reply to]

>The important thing to do is to make the bots channel +m, so only the bots
can talk. Otherwise, development discussion will follow to the new channel
and this is a bad thing.

Agreed. Forcing the bots separate from the devs will keep the discussion a
lot easier to follow too, both in real time and especially when reading
logs.

I'm also in agreement that giving the bots their own channel is a great
idea. I don't get on #mediawiki that terribly often, but Bug #35427 that
Petr showed us convinced me that it needs done sooner than later.


_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l [at] lists
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


innocentkiller at gmail

Jun 21, 2012, 8:44 AM

Post #6 of 48 (1559 views)
Permalink
Re: bot activity in #mediawiki on freenode [In reply to]

On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 11:25 AM, Derric Atzrott
<datzrott [at] alizeepathology> wrote:
> I'm also in agreement that giving the bots their own channel is a great
> idea.  I don't get on #mediawiki that terribly often, but Bug #35427 that
> Petr showed us convinced me that it needs done sooner than later.
>

Well the IRC spam from L10n was a separate issue, that's been silenced.

-Chad

_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l [at] lists
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


benapetr at gmail

Jun 21, 2012, 8:47 AM

Post #7 of 48 (1565 views)
Permalink
Re: bot activity in #mediawiki on freenode [In reply to]

Ok, I was bold and created #mediawiki-feed let's configure it as we
proposed. It will be +m and all bots will have voice. All devs who
want +f in that channel so that they can configure flags and rules for
bots, just ping me in #mediawiki

If there was some problem we can always put it back, I moved wm-bot
feeds for now to that new channel

On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 5:25 PM, Derric Atzrott
<datzrott [at] alizeepathology> wrote:
>>The important thing to do is to make the bots channel +m, so only the bots
> can talk. Otherwise, development discussion will follow to the new channel
> and this is a bad thing.
>
> Agreed.  Forcing the bots separate from the devs will keep the discussion a
> lot easier to follow too, both in real time and especially when reading
> logs.
>
> I'm also in agreement that giving the bots their own channel is a great
> idea.  I don't get on #mediawiki that terribly often, but Bug #35427 that
> Petr showed us convinced me that it needs done sooner than later.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l [at] lists
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l [at] lists
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


innocentkiller at gmail

Jun 21, 2012, 8:55 AM

Post #8 of 48 (1564 views)
Permalink
Re: bot activity in #mediawiki on freenode [In reply to]

On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 11:47 AM, Petr Bena <benapetr [at] gmail> wrote:
> Ok, I was bold and created #mediawiki-feed let's configure it as we
> proposed. It will be +m and all bots will have voice. All devs who
> want +f in that channel so that they can configure flags and rules for
> bots, just ping me in #mediawiki
>
> If there was some problem we can always put it back, I moved wm-bot
> feeds for now to that new channel
>

Well let's not shut anything off in #mediawiki just yet. This has only
been on the list for an hour so let's allow some other people the
chance to weigh in :)

-Chad

_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l [at] lists
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


bharris at wikimedia

Jun 21, 2012, 9:07 AM

Post #9 of 48 (1566 views)
Permalink
Re: bot activity in #mediawiki on freenode [In reply to]

Please move the bots out.


On Jun 21, 2012, at 8:44 AM, Chad wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 11:25 AM, Derric Atzrott
> <datzrott [at] alizeepathology> wrote:
>> I'm also in agreement that giving the bots their own channel is a great
>> idea. I don't get on #mediawiki that terribly often, but Bug #35427 that
>> Petr showed us convinced me that it needs done sooner than later.
>>
>
> Well the IRC spam from L10n was a separate issue, that's been silenced.
>
> -Chad
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l [at] lists
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

---
Brandon Harris, Senior Designer, Wikimedia Foundation

Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate


_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l [at] lists
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


datzrott at alizeepathology

Jun 21, 2012, 9:09 AM

Post #10 of 48 (1560 views)
Permalink
Re: bot activity in #mediawiki on freenode [In reply to]

>Well let's not shut anything off in #mediawiki just yet. This has only been
on the list for an hour so let's allow some other people the chance to weigh
in :)

Aye. It may be daylight hours in the States, but it isn't necessarily
everywhere; some of the people on this list may be sleeping or otherwise
unable to read their emails right now. Given the nature of the change (as
I'm sure that some people use those feeds), I personally would suggest
waiting 24 hours on it.

Thank you,
Derric Atzrott
Computer Specialist
Alizee Pathology


_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l [at] lists
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


hashar+wmf at free

Jun 21, 2012, 9:11 AM

Post #11 of 48 (1561 views)
Permalink
Re: bot activity in #mediawiki on freenode [In reply to]

btb wrote:
> i'm hopeful this is the appropriate venue for this topic - i recently
> had occasion to visit #mediawiki on freenode, looking for help. i found
> myself a bit frustrated by the amount of bot activity there

Indeed. Made discussion very hard to follow and I end up doing private
message to people asking for support or talking to #wikimedia-dev :-(

Gerrit change https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/12388 would move Gerrit bot
and Wikibugs to #mediawiki-feed

--
Antoine "hashar" Musso




_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l [at] lists
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


hashar+wmf at free

Jun 21, 2012, 9:14 AM

Post #12 of 48 (1565 views)
Permalink
Re: bot activity in #mediawiki on freenode [In reply to]

Le 21/06/12 17:13, Petr Bena a écrit :
> That's what I said this week, we should make #mediawiki-feed where all
> bots would live and leave #mediawiki for humans

Please note we also have #mediawiki-codereview which received
notifications from Special:CodeReview. It is already setup, so we could
just use that existing channel.

--
Antoine "hashar" Musso




_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l [at] lists
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


benapetr at gmail

Jun 21, 2012, 9:15 AM

Post #13 of 48 (1563 views)
Permalink
Re: bot activity in #mediawiki on freenode [In reply to]

No worries new channel is already.logged so they could grab the feed from
log. Anyway waiting is a good idea
On Jun 21, 2012 6:11 PM, "Antoine Musso" <hashar+wmf [at] free> wrote:

> btb wrote:
> > i'm hopeful this is the appropriate venue for this topic - i recently
> > had occasion to visit #mediawiki on freenode, looking for help. i found
> > myself a bit frustrated by the amount of bot activity there
>
> Indeed. Made discussion very hard to follow and I end up doing private
> message to people asking for support or talking to #wikimedia-dev :-(
>
> Gerrit change https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/12388 would move Gerrit bot
> and Wikibugs to #mediawiki-feed
>
> --
> Antoine "hashar" Musso
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l [at] lists
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l [at] lists
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


hashar+wmf at free

Jun 21, 2012, 9:23 AM

Post #14 of 48 (1558 views)
Permalink
Re: bot activity in #mediawiki on freenode [In reply to]

Le 21/06/12 18:09, Derric Atzrott a écrit :
> I personally would suggest waiting 24 hours on it.

And since we do not deploy on Friday, that is never going to happen
before at least monday June 25th :-]

--
Antoine "hashar" Musso




_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l [at] lists
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


innocentkiller at gmail

Jun 21, 2012, 9:24 AM

Post #15 of 48 (1558 views)
Permalink
Re: bot activity in #mediawiki on freenode [In reply to]

On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 12:23 PM, Antoine Musso <hashar+wmf [at] free> wrote:
> Le 21/06/12 18:09, Derric Atzrott a écrit :
>> I personally would suggest waiting 24  hours on it.
>
> And since we do not deploy on Friday, that is never going to happen
> before at least monday June 25th :-]
>

Well we've had bots in the channel for years--I don't think another
weekend is going to kill us.

-Chad

_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l [at] lists
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


krenair at gmail

Jun 21, 2012, 9:25 AM

Post #16 of 48 (1559 views)
Permalink
Re: bot activity in #mediawiki on freenode [In reply to]

If you're moving all bots, including wikibugs, then you can't use -codereview because wikibugs isn't a code review bot. It's for bugs.

Krenair

On 21/06/12 17:14, Antoine Musso wrote:

> Le 21/06/12 17:13, Petr Bena a écrit :
>> That's what I said this week, we should make #mediawiki-feed where all
>> bots would live and leave #mediawiki for humans
> Please note we also have #mediawiki-codereview which received
> notifications from Special:CodeReview. It is already setup, so we could
> just use that existing channel.
>


_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l [at] lists
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


benapetr at gmail

Jun 21, 2012, 9:39 AM

Post #17 of 48 (1559 views)
Permalink
Re: bot activity in #mediawiki on freenode [In reply to]

That's my point as well

On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 6:25 PM, Krenair <krenair [at] gmail> wrote:
> If you're moving all bots, including wikibugs, then you can't use
> -codereview because wikibugs isn't a code review bot. It's for bugs.
>
> Krenair
>
>
> On 21/06/12 17:14, Antoine Musso wrote:
>
>> Le 21/06/12 17:13, Petr Bena a écrit :
>>>
>>> That's what I said this week, we should make #mediawiki-feed where all
>>> bots would live and leave #mediawiki for humans
>>
>> Please note we also have #mediawiki-codereview which received
>> notifications from Special:CodeReview.  It is already setup, so we could
>> just use that existing channel.
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l [at] lists
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l [at] lists
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


benapetr at gmail

Jun 21, 2012, 9:40 AM

Post #18 of 48 (1560 views)
Permalink
Re: bot activity in #mediawiki on freenode [In reply to]

+ -feed is shorter than -codereview, we could just rename channel
(move access list and settings)

On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 6:39 PM, Petr Bena <benapetr [at] gmail> wrote:
> That's my point as well
>
> On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 6:25 PM, Krenair <krenair [at] gmail> wrote:
>> If you're moving all bots, including wikibugs, then you can't use
>> -codereview because wikibugs isn't a code review bot. It's for bugs.
>>
>> Krenair
>>
>>
>> On 21/06/12 17:14, Antoine Musso wrote:
>>
>>> Le 21/06/12 17:13, Petr Bena a écrit :
>>>>
>>>> That's what I said this week, we should make #mediawiki-feed where all
>>>> bots would live and leave #mediawiki for humans
>>>
>>> Please note we also have #mediawiki-codereview which received
>>> notifications from Special:CodeReview.  It is already setup, so we could
>>> just use that existing channel.
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>> Wikitech-l [at] lists
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l [at] lists
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


benapetr at gmail

Jun 21, 2012, 9:41 AM

Post #19 of 48 (1559 views)
Permalink
Re: bot activity in #mediawiki on freenode [In reply to]

Or we could keep both

codereview as it is and new -feed for all lightweight feed bots we had
in #mediawiki

because if we move the bot from -codereview the new feed will have way
too many review reports

On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 6:40 PM, Petr Bena <benapetr [at] gmail> wrote:
> + -feed is shorter than -codereview, we could just rename channel
> (move access list and settings)
>
> On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 6:39 PM, Petr Bena <benapetr [at] gmail> wrote:
>> That's my point as well
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 6:25 PM, Krenair <krenair [at] gmail> wrote:
>>> If you're moving all bots, including wikibugs, then you can't use
>>> -codereview because wikibugs isn't a code review bot. It's for bugs.
>>>
>>> Krenair
>>>
>>>
>>> On 21/06/12 17:14, Antoine Musso wrote:
>>>
>>>> Le 21/06/12 17:13, Petr Bena a écrit :
>>>>>
>>>>> That's what I said this week, we should make #mediawiki-feed where all
>>>>> bots would live and leave #mediawiki for humans
>>>>
>>>> Please note we also have #mediawiki-codereview which received
>>>> notifications from Special:CodeReview.  It is already setup, so we could
>>>> just use that existing channel.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>>> Wikitech-l [at] lists
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l [at] lists
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


innocentkiller at gmail

Jun 21, 2012, 9:49 AM

Post #20 of 48 (1556 views)
Permalink
Re: bot activity in #mediawiki on freenode [In reply to]

On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 12:41 PM, Petr Bena <benapetr [at] gmail> wrote:
> Or we could keep both
>
> codereview as it is and new -feed for all lightweight feed bots we had
> in #mediawiki
>
> because if we move the bot from -codereview the new feed will have way
> too many review reports
>

Well, -codereview isn't terribly active these days, since we've
moved off CodeReview and onto Gerrit, so there shouldn't be an
overall increase in announcements compared to what we're used to.

-Chad

_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l [at] lists
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


compwhizii at gmail

Jun 21, 2012, 9:50 AM

Post #21 of 48 (1558 views)
Permalink
Re: bot activity in #mediawiki on freenode [In reply to]

On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 12:25 PM, Krenair <krenair [at] gmail> wrote:
> If you're moving all bots, including wikibugs, then you can't use
> -codereview because wikibugs isn't a code review bot. It's for bugs.
>
> Krenair
>
>

Will the world end if we do this? No.

--
John

_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l [at] lists
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


datzrott at alizeepathology

Jun 21, 2012, 10:01 AM

Post #22 of 48 (1564 views)
Permalink
Re: bot activity in #mediawiki on freenode [In reply to]

>> If you're moving all bots, including wikibugs, then you can't use
>> -codereview because wikibugs isn't a code review bot. It's for bugs.

>Will the world end if we do this? No.

Although the world won't end, I agree with Krenair that -codereview is for
code reviews, not bugs. Depending on the volume of the code-review bot
though I don't see a problem with having that bot in both channels
(-codereview and -feed) though. This way we keep our channel names accurate
and descriptive.

Thank you,
Derric Atzrott


_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l [at] lists
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


robla at wikimedia

Jun 21, 2012, 12:53 PM

Post #23 of 48 (1561 views)
Permalink
Re: bot activity in #mediawiki on freenode [In reply to]

On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 8:13 AM, Petr Bena <benapetr [at] gmail> wrote:
> That's what I said this week, we should make #mediawiki-feed where all
> bots would live and leave #mediawiki for humans

If we relegate the bots to a separate channel, pretty soon they'll
figure out no one is paying attention to them, and plot to overthrow
us. You can't be too careful about these things!

On second thought, all hail our robot overlords!

(seriously, let's move the bot traffic to a separate channel)

Rob

_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l [at] lists
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


p858snake at gmail

Jun 21, 2012, 1:42 PM

Post #24 of 48 (1559 views)
Permalink
Re: bot activity in #mediawiki on freenode [In reply to]

I would prefer to see wikibugs stay in #mw to be honest, There is
sometimes support stuff in there, as well as other important stuff.
I'm sure people don't want to be flicking IRC channels every X, and
wikibugs wasn't that high of traffic either...

_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l [at] lists
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


benapetr at gmail

Jun 21, 2012, 1:49 PM

Post #25 of 48 (1559 views)
Permalink
Re: bot activity in #mediawiki on freenode [In reply to]

wikibugs is one of most active bots there, if we are supposed to keep
it, we should filter only bugs related to mediawiki at least

On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 10:42 PM, K. Peachey <p858snake [at] gmail> wrote:
> I would prefer to see wikibugs stay in #mw to be honest, There is
> sometimes support stuff in there, as well as other important stuff.
> I'm sure people don't want to be flicking IRC channels every X, and
> wikibugs wasn't that high of traffic either...
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l [at] lists
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l [at] lists
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All Wikipedia wikitech RSS feed   Index | Next | Previous | View Threaded
 
 


Interested in having your list archived? Contact Gossamer Threads
 
  Web Applications & Managed Hosting Powered by Gossamer Threads Inc.