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Language codes vs site codes

 

 

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denny.vrandecic at wikimedia

May 8, 2012, 4:36 PM

Post #1 of 5 (162 views)
Permalink
Language codes vs site codes

Hi,

Wikimedia projects like Wikipedia exist for a large number of languages
(>280, wow). Let us call them the sites. They are identified by the site
code used in the subdomain and in language and interwiki links, e.g. "en"
for en.wikipedia.org, i.e. the English Wikipedia.

MediaWiki has a number of interface languages. These are selected through
the preferences. They also have short language codes that identify them and
which are used, e.g. in the localization of the code. "en" is used for
English.

My four questions:
* are the language codes a proper superset of the site codes?
* if the code is the same in both cases, does it always refer to the same
language?
* does the Wikimedia project identified by a specific site code also always
use the same language code as its default interface language?
* are the answers to the previous three questions accidental or by design,
i.e. can we expect that this will stay like this in the future?

I hope that the answers are yes,yes,yes,yes :)

Sorry for the nitpicking questions, I hope someone knows the answers.

Cheers,
Denny

--
Project director Wikidata
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. | Obentrautstr. 2 | 10963 Berlin
Tel. +49-30-219 158 26-0 | http://wikimedia.de

Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter
der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für
Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
_______________________________________________
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denny.vrandecic at wikimedia

May 8, 2012, 6:36 PM

Post #2 of 5 (155 views)
Permalink
Re: Language codes vs site codes [In reply to]

(Siebrand, I am unsure if this will arrive at mediawiki-i18n, feel free to
forward it you consider it interesting to them).

OK, I've written a few lines of Python [1] which actually helped me answer
my questions. Sorry to bother.

And the answers are yes, yes, no, but close, and i hope so.

There are a small number of wikis which use a different language code than
their site code is, namely:

crh -> crh-latn
als -> gsw
be-x-old -> be-tarask
roa-rup -> rup
simple -> en

But, at the same time, the given *site* codes exist as *language* codes as
well, i.e. the languages/messages files exist for them, but they just
fallback to the given language code (i.e. MessagesAls.php just names gsw as
a fallback).

I would not be surprised if each of these five examples would have an
anecdote to explain why they are the way they are :)

Thanks,
Denny

P.S.: There is one thing I do not understand though. According to
https://simple.wikipedia.org/w/api.php?action=query&meta=siteinfo the
language of simple.wp is "en", but MessagesSimple.php seems to be taken
into account (instead of "edit" it has "change" in the UI, one of only two
changes in MessagesSimple to MessagesEn). So it seems that the language is
"simple" -- why does it say "en" in the siteinfo?


[1] available here: <http://pastebin.com/JpApSmNX>

2012/5/9 Siebrand Mazeland <s.mazeland [at] xs4all>

> Forwarded. Please cc Denny, as he is not on this list.
>
> Begin doorgestuurd bericht:
>
> *Van:* Denny Vrandečić <denny.vrandecic [at] wikimedia>
> *Datum:* 9 mei 2012 01:36:01 GMT+02:00
> *Aan:* MediaWiki Tech list <wikitech-l [at] lists>
> *Onderwerp:* *[Wikitech-l] Language codes vs site codes*
> *Antwoord aan:* Wikimedia developers <wikitech-l [at] lists>
>
> Hi,
>
> Wikimedia projects like Wikipedia exist for a large number of languages
> (>280, wow). Let us call them the sites. They are identified by the site
> code used in the subdomain and in language and interwiki links, e.g. "en"
> for en.wikipedia.org, i.e. the English Wikipedia.
>
> MediaWiki has a number of interface languages. These are selected through
> the preferences. They also have short language codes that identify them and
> which are used, e.g. in the localization of the code. "en" is used for
> English.
>
> My four questions:
> * are the language codes a proper superset of the site codes?
> * if the code is the same in both cases, does it always refer to the same
> language?
> * does the Wikimedia project identified by a specific site code also always
> use the same language code as its default interface language?
> * are the answers to the previous three questions accidental or by design,
> i.e. can we expect that this will stay like this in the future?
>
> I hope that the answers are yes,yes,yes,yes :)
>
> Sorry for the nitpicking questions, I hope someone knows the answers.
>
> Cheers,
> Denny
>
> --
> Project director Wikidata
> Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. | Obentrautstr. 2 | 10963 Berlin
> Tel. +49-30-219 158 26-0 | http://wikimedia.de
>
>


--
Project director Wikidata
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. | Obentrautstr. 2 | 10963 Berlin
Tel. +49-30-219 158 26-0 | http://wikimedia.de

Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter
der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für
Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l [at] lists
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


roan.kattouw at gmail

May 8, 2012, 6:40 PM

Post #3 of 5 (157 views)
Permalink
Re: Language codes vs site codes [In reply to]

On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 6:36 PM, Denny Vrandečić
<denny.vrandecic [at] wikimedia> wrote:
> P.S.: There is one thing I do not understand though. According to
> https://simple.wikipedia.org/w/api.php?action=query&meta=siteinfo the
> language of simple.wp is "en", but MessagesSimple.php seems to be taken
> into account (instead of "edit" it has "change" in the UI, one of only two
> changes in MessagesSimple to MessagesEn). So it seems that the language is
> "simple" -- why does it say "en" in the siteinfo?
>
Are you sure this isn't just because someone edited
[[MediaWiki:whatever]] on simplewiki?

Roan

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smazeland at wikimedia

May 9, 2012, 12:46 AM

Post #4 of 5 (151 views)
Permalink
Re: Language codes vs site codes [In reply to]

Hi Denny,

On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 3:36 AM, Denny Vrandečić
<denny.vrandecic [at] wikimedia> wrote:
> (Siebrand, I am unsure if this will arrive at mediawiki-i18n, feel free to
> forward it you consider it interesting to them).

It does after the list admin approves it, but you may just want to subscribe[1].

> OK, I've written a few lines of Python [1] which actually helped me answer
> my questions. Sorry to bother.
>
> And the answers are yes, yes, no, but close, and i hope so.

No problem. We like people answering their own question. More time for
us to do other things :).

> There are a small number of wikis which use a different language code than
> their site code is, namely:
>
> crh -> crh-latn
> als -> gsw
> be-x-old -> be-tarask
> roa-rup -> rup
> simple -> en

There are a few more, actually. See includes/DefaultSettings.php,
$wgDummyLanguageCodes.

> But, at the same time, the given *site* codes exist as *language* codes as
> well, i.e. the languages/messages files exist for them, but they just
> fallback to the given language code (i.e. MessagesAls.php just names gsw as
> a fallback).

That's an issue with the Wikimedia setup, I guess. If the language
code could be different from the subdomain name, that is what should
be done. It's probably not as simple as it looks. See next item.

> I would not be surprised if each of these five examples would have an
> anecdote to explain why they are the way they are :)

That, and a past in which there was less attention for trying to stick
to a particular standard. Doesn't really matter, we're stuck with it
for now, and should try to not make it worse, and fix it on the long
run. For the 5+ years that I'm involved in MediaWiki development,
there have been requests to rename wikis to more appropriate subdomain
names, but for some reason, no progress has been made on it yet. These
10+ requests are tracked in https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/19986.

> P.S.: There is one thing I do not understand though. According
> to https://simple.wikipedia.org/w/api.php?action=query&meta=siteinfo the
> language of simple.wp is "en", but MessagesSimple.php seems to be taken into
> account (instead of "edit" it has "change" in the UI, one of only two
> changes in MessagesSimple to MessagesEn).

Thanks for mentioning. That shouldn't have been there. Fixed in
https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/7035/.

> So it seems that the language is
> "simple" -- why does it say "en" in the siteinfo?

Because it *is* English. It just should be English with a reduced
vocabulary. There have been many debates in the past over its
usefulness, and if possibly other languages should also get a simple
vocabulary Wikimedia project (and subdomain). This is just for
reference, please do not comment on this in this thread, but start a
new one if you'd wish to discuss simple language versions.

Not sure if this made your insight clearer, but at least I hope I was
able to add some details :).

[1] https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-i18n

Cheers!

--
Siebrand Mazeland
Product Manager Localisation
Wikimedia Foundation

M: +31 6 50 69 1239
Skype: siebrand

Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate

_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l [at] lists
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denny.vrandecic at wikimedia

May 9, 2012, 6:31 AM

Post #5 of 5 (149 views)
Permalink
Re: Language codes vs site codes [In reply to]

Thanks, the conversation indeed helped me!

Cheers,
Denny

2012/5/9 Siebrand Mazeland (WMF) <smazeland [at] wikimedia>

> Hi Denny,
>
> On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 3:36 AM, Denny Vrandečić
> <denny.vrandecic [at] wikimedia> wrote:
> > (Siebrand, I am unsure if this will arrive at mediawiki-i18n, feel free
> to
> > forward it you consider it interesting to them).
>
> It does after the list admin approves it, but you may just want to
> subscribe[1].
>
> > OK, I've written a few lines of Python [1] which actually helped me
> answer
> > my questions. Sorry to bother.
> >
> > And the answers are yes, yes, no, but close, and i hope so.
>
> No problem. We like people answering their own question. More time for
> us to do other things :).
>
> > There are a small number of wikis which use a different language code
> than
> > their site code is, namely:
> >
> > crh -> crh-latn
> > als -> gsw
> > be-x-old -> be-tarask
> > roa-rup -> rup
> > simple -> en
>
> There are a few more, actually. See includes/DefaultSettings.php,
> $wgDummyLanguageCodes.
>
> > But, at the same time, the given *site* codes exist as *language* codes
> as
> > well, i.e. the languages/messages files exist for them, but they just
> > fallback to the given language code (i.e. MessagesAls.php just names gsw
> as
> > a fallback).
>
> That's an issue with the Wikimedia setup, I guess. If the language
> code could be different from the subdomain name, that is what should
> be done. It's probably not as simple as it looks. See next item.
>
> > I would not be surprised if each of these five examples would have an
> > anecdote to explain why they are the way they are :)
>
> That, and a past in which there was less attention for trying to stick
> to a particular standard. Doesn't really matter, we're stuck with it
> for now, and should try to not make it worse, and fix it on the long
> run. For the 5+ years that I'm involved in MediaWiki development,
> there have been requests to rename wikis to more appropriate subdomain
> names, but for some reason, no progress has been made on it yet. These
> 10+ requests are tracked in https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/19986.
>
> > P.S.: There is one thing I do not understand though. According
> > to https://simple.wikipedia.org/w/api.php?action=query&meta=siteinfo the
> > language of simple.wp is "en", but MessagesSimple.php seems to be taken
> into
> > account (instead of "edit" it has "change" in the UI, one of only two
> > changes in MessagesSimple to MessagesEn).
>
> Thanks for mentioning. That shouldn't have been there. Fixed in
> https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/7035/.
>
> > So it seems that the language is
> > "simple" -- why does it say "en" in the siteinfo?
>
> Because it *is* English. It just should be English with a reduced
> vocabulary. There have been many debates in the past over its
> usefulness, and if possibly other languages should also get a simple
> vocabulary Wikimedia project (and subdomain). This is just for
> reference, please do not comment on this in this thread, but start a
> new one if you'd wish to discuss simple language versions.
>
> Not sure if this made your insight clearer, but at least I hope I was
> able to add some details :).
>
> [1] https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-i18n
>
> Cheers!
>
> --
> Siebrand Mazeland
> Product Manager Localisation
> Wikimedia Foundation
>
> M: +31 6 50 69 1239
> Skype: siebrand
>
> Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
>



--
Project director Wikidata
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. | Obentrautstr. 2 | 10963 Berlin
Tel. +49-30-219 158 26-0 | http://wikimedia.de

Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter
der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für
Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l [at] lists
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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