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Namespace translations in 1.20wmf1 all kosher?

 

 

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robla at wikimedia

Apr 12, 2012, 6:52 PM

Post #1 of 10 (372 views)
Permalink
Namespace translations in 1.20wmf1 all kosher?

Hi everyone,

During the 1.19 cycle, there were some namespace names that were changed
and then reverted shortly before deployment. We're about to deploy
1.20wmf1 to a lot of international wikis on Wednesday of next week, and I'm
a little worried that we may need to do a speedy revert again.

Two concerns:
1. Do the new namespace names have community consensus? What I've heard
though the grapevine is that yes, there has been an effort to get
consensus, but confirmation of that would be nice.
2. For each namespace that was changed, was there a corresponding alias
set up? Rumor has it that there might be a few cases where that isn't the
case.

I did a quick grep for recent changes to NS_* messages in hopes of finding
a few examples of recent changes. Below is a list of changes in 2012 to
NS_ messages.

We should get this sorted out before we push on Wednesday.

Thanks
Rob

23ea50c3 (Antoine Musso 2012-02-15 15:29:22 +0000 47) NS_USER =>
array( 'male' => 'Përdoruesi', 'female' => 'Përdoruesja' ),
23ea50c3 (Antoine Musso 2012-02-15 15:29:22 +0000 48) NS_USER_TALK =>
array( 'male' => 'Përdoruesi_diskutim', 'female' => 'Përdoruesja_diskutim'
),
dde3821a (Niklas Laxström 2012-03-28 13:41:19 +0000 56) NS_USER => array(
'male' => 'Suradnik', 'female' => 'Suradnica' ),
dde3821a (Niklas Laxström 2012-03-28 13:41:19 +0000 57) NS_USER_TALK =>
array( 'male' => 'Razgovor_sa_suradnikom', 'female' =>
'Razgovor_sa_suradnicom' ),
b3664209 (Translation updater bot 2012-04-06 15:34:29 +0000 26) NS_MEDIA
=> 'Медиум',
b3664209 (Translation updater bot 2012-04-06 15:34:29 +0000 45) 'Медија'
=> NS_MEDIA,
b3664209 (Translation updater bot 2012-04-06 15:34:29 +0000 46) 'Специјални'
=> NS_SPECIAL,
b3664209 (Translation updater bot 2012-04-06 15:34:29 +0000 47) 'Слика'
=> NS_FILE,
80f29d01 ( Reedy 2012-04-07 21:03:44 +0100 47) 'Imagem' => NS_FILE,
3bc64a9f (Translation updater bot 2012-04-03 21:11:13 +0000 440)'articlepage'
=> "'Content page' is used for NS_MAIN and any other non-standard namespace
and this message is only used in skins Nostalgia, Cologneblue and Standard
in the bottomLinks part.
659f18cc (Tim Starling 2012-01-02 22:54:57 +0000 108) NS_USER =>
array( 'male' => 'Участник', 'female' => 'Участница' ),
659f18cc (Tim Starling 2012-01-02 22:54:57 +0000 109) NS_USER_TALK =>
array( 'male' => 'Обсуждение_участника', 'female' => 'Обсуждение_участницы'
),
764b3492 (Niklas Laxström 2012-02-13 19:36:49 +0000 61) NS_USER =>
array( 'male' => 'Përdoruesi', 'female' => 'Përdoruesja' ),
764b3492 (Niklas Laxström 2012-02-13 19:36:49 +0000 62) NS_USER_TALK =>
array( 'male' => 'Përdoruesi_diskutim', 'female' => 'Përdoruesja_diskutim'
),
f0ecaf0a (Niklas Laxström 2012-04-10 16:36:41 +0000 38) NS_FILE
=> 'Датотека',
f0ecaf0a (Niklas Laxström 2012-04-10 16:36:41 +0000 39) NS_FILE_TALK
=> 'Разговор_о_датотеци',
f0ecaf0a (Niklas Laxström 2012-04-10 16:36:41 +0000 40) NS_MEDIAWIKI
=> 'Медијавики',
f0ecaf0a (Niklas Laxström 2012-04-10 16:36:41 +0000 41) NS_MEDIAWIKI_TALK
=> 'Разговор_о_Медијавикију',
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niklas.laxstrom at gmail

Apr 13, 2012, 2:02 AM

Post #2 of 10 (311 views)
Permalink
Re: Namespace translations in 1.20wmf1 all kosher? [In reply to]

On 13 April 2012 04:52, Rob Lanphier <robla [at] wikimedia> wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> During the 1.19 cycle, there were some namespace names that were changed
> and then reverted shortly before deployment.  We're about to deploy
> 1.20wmf1 to a lot of international wikis on Wednesday of next week, and I'm
> a little worried that we may need to do a speedy revert again.

I'm worried about lots of stuff, this thing is near the bottom of that list.

> Two concerns:
> 1.  Do the new namespace names have community consensus?  What I've heard
> though the grapevine is that yes, there has been an effort to get
> consensus, but confirmation of that would be nice.

Since when is consensus required for software or localisation changes?

However, long time ago I talked with Tim who reverted the original
change. I also proposed a solution (post notifications to all affected
Wikipedias) [1] but got no comments on that. I decided to execute the
plan anyway [2] and we got positive feedback, negative feedback and no
feedback at all for some languages. For the negative feedback I did
some reverts [3,4].

There is always guaranteed to be someone who doesn't like the changes.
However, after our request for feedback I am pretty sure that we have
avoided the most unwanted changes. I'm assuming good faith for the
rest of the namespace changes.

> 2.  For each namespace that was changed, was there a corresponding alias
> set up?  Rumor has it that there might be a few cases where that isn't the
> case.

Here are some facts instead:
* Only reported issue I am aware of is at [1], which doesn't look
problematic to me
* Tim who originally reverted the commit approved it again [2]
* I and Siebrand have double checked the commit

> We should get this sorted out before we push on Wednesday.

As far as I am concerned everything is fine and ready for deployment

-Niklas

[1] http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:Code/MediaWiki/107309
[2] https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/3318
[3] https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/4390
[3] https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/4648


--
Niklas Laxström

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strainu10 at gmail

Apr 13, 2012, 8:43 AM

Post #3 of 10 (312 views)
Permalink
Re: Namespace translations in 1.20wmf1 all kosher? [In reply to]

În data de 13 aprilie 2012, 12:02, Niklas Laxström
<niklas.laxstrom [at] gmail> a scris:
> Since when is consensus required for software or localisation changes?

Niklas, are you having a bad day today or are you always so
inconsiderate to the main users of the software you write? A namespace
name change is a *huge* deal, and you do want some kind of consensus,
or at least majority support for that change, otherwise you'll start a
huge storm (again).

Strainu

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strainu10 at gmail

Apr 13, 2012, 3:01 PM

Post #4 of 10 (306 views)
Permalink
Re: Namespace translations in 1.20wmf1 all kosher? [In reply to]

Re-adding the list, as this is of public interest.

În data de 13 aprilie 2012, 19:42, Niklas Laxström
<niklas.laxstrom [at] gmail> a scris:
> I do consider users (at least one, me!).

Glad to hear that, but you're not the main user of either
translatewiki or mediawiki in general.

> If we must initiate
> discussion (if there even is a community) and wait for consensus (that
> might never happen) for every change we do, we will never get anything
> done.

That's plain wrong, and Wikipedia is here to prove it :) Many user
scripts were developed after consultation with the community. They're
working great and do what users expect them to do, not what the
developers want them to do. I do agree that developement would be much
slower, though.

>
> Like I mentioned in the email, I proposed that we notify affected
> Wikpedias *before* the changes are deployed [1] and executed that
> together with Gerard. They were given right to veto any change they
> didn't like or wanted to discuss. And some of them did use that
> possibility.

Search for "translation" on the Romanian village pump:
https://ro.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AC%C4%83utare&profile=advanced&search=Translation+prefix%3AWikipedia%3ACafenea&fulltext=Search&ns0=1&ns4=1&ns10=1&redirs=1&profile=advanced

The ro.wp embassy:
https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discu%C8%9Bie_Wikipedia:Ambasad%C4%83

I can see no such notification. No message from you, and only one from
Gerard, when the translation team was founded. If you chose only some
Wikipedias, then let me tell you this is even worse than no
notification at all. The thing is - the wiki environment is by
definition decentralized and hard to follow for small communities. If
you choose to notify only big wikis or the wikis that already receive
support from the WMF (e.g. Arabic, Indic languages), you're basically
having no effect at all.

As to solutions, I have proposed at Wikimania 2010 to the person that
was coordinating the Translation hub from meta to put up some
automated notification system when a new translation request appears.
This hasn't happened and translations in most languages are still
happening by chance, as different users go by the translation hub.

I suggest you do the same, at least for Special:AdvanceTranslation
strings. Some time before a scheduled deployment (ideally, 7 days, but
at least 72 hours), notify _all_ the village pumps and some users
(either all the users that translated the advanced strings, or all the
users that sign-up on some dedicated page) of the deployment. This
way, you don't have to wait for the consensus, but you're giving
communities an opportunity to reach it.

The sign-up system might seem complicated, but it works - we use it on
ro.wp for unblocking requests and for responses to warnings: we're
handling all unblocking requests in a matter of minutes, vs. days
before the bot warnings.

Another way to go is to have regular deployments as a rule. Right now,
you guys are something like "oh, we'll do it about every 3-4 months,
if the review queue is not too big and if something goes wrong we'll
push it for 2 more weeks". Having the deployment schedule a year in
advance, including the features you're targeting on each deployment,
and enforcing a maximum delay of 1 week used only for deployment bugs
and nothing else would greatly enhance predictability and give
translators a target to aim for.

Sorry for the long email,
Strainu

P.S. My "accusation" was actually an observation based on my past
interactions with you on this list and on bugzilla. I don't mean any
disrespect, but I stand by it.

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s.mazeland at xs4all

Apr 13, 2012, 3:59 PM

Post #5 of 10 (316 views)
Permalink
Re: Namespace translations in 1.20wmf1 all kosher? [In reply to]

Op 14 apr. 2012 om 00:01 heeft Strainu <strainu10 [at] gmail> het volgende geschreven:

> Re-adding the list, as this is of public interest.

Wow. It's generally considered to be pretty rude to just publish a private reply to a public list. I'm assuming good faith, but please ask next time, would you?


> În data de 13 aprilie 2012, 19:42, Niklas Laxström
> <niklas.laxstrom [at] gmail> a scris:
>> I do consider users (at least one, me!).
>
> Glad to hear that, but you're not the main user of either
> translatewiki or mediawiki in general.

What's the relevance here, or do you feel like Niklas needs an old fashioned and proper bashing?

>> If we must initiate
>> discussion (if there even is a community) and wait for consensus (that
>> might never happen) for every change we do, we will never get anything
>> done.
>
> That's plain wrong, and Wikipedia is here to prove it :) Many user
> scripts were developed after consultation with the community. They're
> working great and do what users expect them to do, not what the
> developers want them to do. I do agree that developement would be much
> slower, though.

Hyperbole is the use of exaggeration as a rhetorical device or figure of speech.

>>
>> Like I mentioned in the email, I proposed that we notify affected
>> Wikpedias *before* the changes are deployed [1] and executed that
>> together with Gerard. They were given right to veto any change they
>> didn't like or wanted to discuss. And some of them did use that
>> possibility.
>
> Search for "translation" on the Romanian village pump:
> https://ro.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AC%C4%83utare&profile=advanced&search=Translation+prefix%3AWikipedia%3ACafenea&fulltext=Search&ns0=1&ns4=1&ns10=1&redirs=1&profile=advanced
>
> The ro.wp embassy:
> https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discu%C8%9Bie_Wikipedia:Ambasad%C4%83
>
> I can see no such notification. No message from you, and only one from
> Gerard, when the translation team was founded. If you chose only some
> Wikipedias, then let me tell you this is even worse than no
> notification at all. The thing is - the wiki environment is by
> definition decentralized and hard to follow for small communities. If
> you choose to notify only big wikis or the wikis that already receive
> support from the WMF (e.g. Arabic, Indic languages), you're basically
> having no effect at all.

http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:Code/MediaWiki/107309 is not about Romanian, so there's no reason for such a message at this point in time. Also see http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2012-February/058189.html.

> As to solutions, I have proposed at Wikimania 2010 to the person that
> was coordinating the Translation hub from meta to put up some
> automated notification system when a new translation request appears.
> This hasn't happened and translations in most languages are still
> happening by chance, as different users go by the translation hub.

It's being worked on. Expect something soon.

> I suggest you do the same, at least for Special:AdvanceTranslation
> strings. Some time before a scheduled deployment (ideally, 7 days, but
> at least 72 hours), notify _all_ the village pumps and some users
> (either all the users that translated the advanced strings, or all the
> users that sign-up on some dedicated page) of the deployment. This
> way, you don't have to wait for the consensus, but you're giving
> communities an opportunity to reach it.

Nah. These changes are usually do rare that we'll just approach communities as we go along. It seems that MediaWiki core namespace changes are now the most heavily QA-ed and agreed upon changes in all of MediaWiki.

> The sign-up system might seem complicated, but it works - we use it on
> ro.wp for unblocking requests and for responses to warnings: we're
> handling all unblocking requests in a matter of minutes, vs. days
> before the bot warnings.

See two paragraphs up. You can also consider signing up to translators-l for now. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:LanguageStats for current translation requests.

> Another way to go is to have regular deployments as a rule. Right now,
> you guys are something like "oh, we'll do it about every 3-4 months,
> if the review queue is not too big and if something goes wrong we'll
> push it for 2 more weeks". Having the deployment schedule a year in
> advance, including the features you're targeting on each deployment,
> and enforcing a maximum delay of 1 week used only for deployment bugs
> and nothing else would greatly enhance predictability and give
> translators a target to aim for.

You are making many assumptions here. Not sure about the scope -- "you guys" is pretty generic--, but I'm pretty certain that there are a few variables (understatement) you failed to take into account that prove this theory as implausible.

> P.S. My "accusation" was actually an observation based on my past
> interactions with you on this list and on bugzilla. I don't mean any
> disrespect, but I stand by it.

Which accusation was that?

Cheers!


Siebrand
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robla at wikimedia

Apr 13, 2012, 4:12 PM

Post #6 of 10 (314 views)
Permalink
Re: Namespace translations in 1.20wmf1 all kosher? [In reply to]

Hi Niklas,

Thanks for the detailed response. I think you addressed a lot of my
concerns.

Comments inline:

On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 2:02 AM, Niklas Laxstrm
<niklas.laxstrom [at] gmail>wrote:

> > Two concerns:
> > 1. Do the new namespace names have community consensus? What I've heard
> > though the grapevine is that yes, there has been an effort to get
> > consensus, but confirmation of that would be nice.
>
> Since when is consensus required for software or localisation changes?
>

As was pointed out by Strainu, namespace changes are a bigger deal than
most. That said, I'm satisfied that the appropriate effort was based on
the links you gave me, so thank you!

> 2. For each namespace that was changed, was there a corresponding alias
> > set up? Rumor has it that there might be a few cases where that isn't
> the
> > case.
>
> Here are some facts instead:
> * Only reported issue I am aware of is at [1], which doesn't look
> problematic to me
> * Tim who originally reverted the commit approved it again [2]
> * I and Siebrand have double checked the commit
>

Perfect, thanks!


> [1] http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:Code/MediaWiki/107309
> [2] https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/3318
> [3] https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/4390
> [3] https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/4648


^ These links were really helpful, thanks!

I'm checking in on this in an abundance of caution, since the last time
around, there was disagreement about the level of diligence needed. Sorry
if this feels like I'm jerking you around; I'm just double checking for
known problems from last deployment.

Rob
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strainu10 at gmail

Apr 14, 2012, 12:46 PM

Post #7 of 10 (362 views)
Permalink
Re: Namespace translations in 1.20wmf1 all kosher? [In reply to]

În data de 14 aprilie 2012, 01:59, Siebrand Mazeland
<s.mazeland [at] xs4all> a scris:
> Op 14 apr. 2012 om 00:01 heeft Strainu <strainu10 [at] gmail> het volgende geschreven:
>
>> Re-adding the list, as this is of public interest.
>
> Wow. It's generally considered to be pretty rude to just publish a private reply to a public list. I'm assuming good faith, but please ask next time, would you?

Actually, you shouldn't AGF. I was aware that this is considered rude,
but I did it anyway. There was no reason for that email to be private.
If I am to be the bad guy for something to change, so be it. I will
live with that.

>> În data de 13 aprilie 2012, 19:42, Niklas Laxström
>> <niklas.laxstrom [at] gmail> a scris:
>>> I do consider users (at least one, me!).
>>
>> Glad to hear that, but you're not the main user of either
>> translatewiki or mediawiki in general.
>
> What's the relevance here, or do you feel like Niklas needs an old fashioned and proper bashing?

I feel Niklas needs to be less ego-centric. I was talking about "the
main users of the software" and he responded that he thinks about
himself. Or was that also a hyperbole?

This also applies to many others from the development team, as a
search in the wikitech-l archives will show.

> Hyperbole is the use of exaggeration as a rhetorical device or figure of speech.

That's one hell of an exaggeration, but be it your way.

>
>>>
>>> Like I mentioned in the email, I proposed that we notify affected
>>> Wikpedias *before* the changes are deployed [1] and executed that
>>> together with Gerard. They were given right to veto any change they
>>> didn't like or wanted to discuss. And some of them did use that
>>> possibility.
>>
>> Search for "translation" on the Romanian village pump:
>> https://ro.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AC%C4%83utare&profile=advanced&search=Translation+prefix%3AWikipedia%3ACafenea&fulltext=Search&ns0=1&ns4=1&ns10=1&redirs=1&profile=advanced
>>
>> The ro.wp embassy:
>> https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discu%C8%9Bie_Wikipedia:Ambasad%C4%83
>>
>> I can see no such notification. No message from you, and only one from
>> Gerard, when the translation team was founded. If you chose only some
>> Wikipedias, then let me tell you this is even worse than no
>> notification at all. The thing is - the wiki environment is by
>> definition decentralized and hard to follow for small communities. If
>> you choose to notify only big wikis or the wikis that already receive
>> support from the WMF (e.g. Arabic, Indic languages), you're basically
>> having no effect at all.
>
> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:Code/MediaWiki/107309 is not about Romanian, so there's no reason for such a message at this point in time. Also see http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2012-February/058189.html.

True. My apologies here. But still, so far I haven't seen a single
message from the i18n team.

>
>> As to solutions, I have proposed at Wikimania 2010 to the person that
>> was coordinating the Translation hub from meta to put up some
>> automated notification system when a new translation request appears.
>> This hasn't happened and translations in most languages are still
>> happening by chance, as different users go by the translation hub.
>
> It's being worked on. Expect something soon.

Worked on? I know first hand that such a notification system does not
take more than a man-day to crate with a minimal set of features.
Add-ons can be added iteratively later.

So "something soon" is "much too late" from my POV. You don't need to
have it deliver french fries to the communities from the first
version. :)

>
>> I suggest you do the same, at least for Special:AdvanceTranslation
>> strings. Some time before a scheduled deployment (ideally, 7 days, but
>> at least 72 hours), notify _all_ the village pumps and some users
>> (either all the users that translated the advanced strings, or all the
>> users that sign-up on some dedicated page) of the deployment. This
>> way, you don't have to wait for the consensus, but you're giving
>> communities an opportunity to reach it.
>
> Nah. These changes are usually do rare that we'll just approach communities as we go along. It seems that MediaWiki core namespace changes are now the most heavily QA-ed and agreed upon changes in all of MediaWiki.

Have you considered malicious, subtle changes (e.g. change of a
diacritic just minutes before the deployment)? Are there checks in
pace to prevent them? Having the community aware ahead of time would
increase the number of interested eyes.

>
>> Another way to go is to have regular deployments as a rule. Right now,
>> you guys are something like "oh, we'll do it about every 3-4 months,
>> if the review queue is not too big and if something goes wrong we'll
>> push it for 2 more weeks". Having the deployment schedule a year in
>> advance, including the features you're targeting on each deployment,
>> and enforcing a maximum delay of 1 week used only for deployment bugs
>> and nothing else would greatly enhance predictability and give
>> translators a target to aim for.
>
> You are making many assumptions here. Not sure about the scope -- "you guys" is pretty generic--, but I'm pretty certain that there are a few variables (understatement) you failed to take into account that prove this theory as implausible.

"You guys" means MediaWiki developers, both paid and volunteers.

I'm talking about a time-based release train here. I would say that
MediaWiki already uses this system, but it's just very, very slack. Of
course there are many variables that need to be taken into account,
but my understanding is there is somebody responsible for the
deployments. This person should handle those variables so *something*
(which is as close as possible to the original plan) is deployed as
close as possible to the announced moment.

Strainu

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nemowiki at gmail

Apr 14, 2012, 2:21 PM

Post #8 of 10 (305 views)
Permalink
Re: Namespace translations in 1.20wmf1 all kosher? [In reply to]

Strainu:
> Actually, you shouldn't AGF.

Why not. http://meatballwiki.org/wiki/AssumeStupidityNotMalice

> If I am to be the bad guy for something to change, so be it. I will
> live with that.

Thank you for proving you're only playing the martyr.

Nemo

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strainu10 at gmail

Apr 14, 2012, 3:03 PM

Post #9 of 10 (309 views)
Permalink
Re: Namespace translations in 1.20wmf1 all kosher? [In reply to]

2012/4/15, Federico Leva (Nemo) <nemowiki [at] gmail>:
> Strainu:
> > Actually, you shouldn't AGF.
>
> Why not. http://meatballwiki.org/wiki/AssumeStupidityNotMalice

Whatever makes you happy, 'captain.

>
> > If I am to be the bad guy for something to change, so be it. I will
> > live with that.
>
> Thank you for proving you're only playing the martyr.

I'm not. I'm pursuing a goal. Playing nice hasn't helped. Time for plan B.

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innocentkiller at gmail

Apr 14, 2012, 3:15 PM

Post #10 of 10 (308 views)
Permalink
Re: Namespace translations in 1.20wmf1 all kosher? [In reply to]

On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 6:03 PM, Strainu <strainu10 [at] gmail> wrote:
> 2012/4/15, Federico Leva (Nemo) <nemowiki [at] gmail>:
>> Strainu:
>>  > Actually, you shouldn't AGF.
>>
>> Why not. http://meatballwiki.org/wiki/AssumeStupidityNotMalice
>
> Whatever makes you happy, 'captain.
>
>>
>>  > If I am to be the bad guy for something to change, so be it. I will
>>  > live with that.
>>
>> Thank you for proving you're only playing the martyr.
>
> I'm not. I'm pursuing a goal. Playing nice hasn't helped. Time for plan B.
>

Everyone: either keep it on topic (namespace changes and making
sure the right people are notified) or take it offlist.

Thank you.

-Chad

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