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Video codecs and mobile

 

 

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brion at pobox

Mar 19, 2012, 6:24 PM

Post #1 of 47 (1614 views)
Permalink
Video codecs and mobile

As some may know, we've restricted videos on Wikimedia sites to the
freely-licensed Ogg Theora codec for some years, with some intention to
support other non-patent-encumbered formats like WebM.

One of our partners in pushing for free formats was Mozilla; Fire fox's
HTML5 video supports only Theora and WebM.

The prime competing format, H.264, has potential patent issues - like other
MPEG standards there's a patent pool and certain licensing rules. It's also
nearly got an exclusive choke hold on mobile - so much so that Mozilla is
considering ways to adopt H.264 support to avoid being left behind:

http://blog.lizardwrangler.com/2012/03/18/video-user-experience-and-our-mission/

Is it time for us to think about H.264 encoding on our own videos?

Right now users of millions of mobile phones and tablets have no access to
our audio and video content, and our old desktop fallback of using a Java
applet is unavailable.

In theory we can produce a configuration with TimedMediaHandler to produce
both H.264 and Theora/WebM transcodes, bringing Commons media to life for
mobile users and Apple and Microsoft browser users.

What do we think about this? What are the pros and cons?

-- brion
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monomium at gmail

Mar 19, 2012, 8:12 PM

Post #2 of 47 (1576 views)
Permalink
Re: Video codecs and mobile [In reply to]

Please. Although WebM is a promising format, it's not available yet. The
Java fallback is a solution even worse than just using Fash, so if we want
to get with this century, I believe we have to hold our noses and adopt a
modern format.

On Monday, March 19, 2012, Brion Vibber <brion [at] pobox> wrote:
> As some may know, we've restricted videos on Wikimedia sites to the
> freely-licensed Ogg Theora codec for some years, with some intention to
> support other non-patent-encumbered formats like WebM.
>
> One of our partners in pushing for free formats was Mozilla; Fire fox's
> HTML5 video supports only Theora and WebM.
>
> The prime competing format, H.264, has potential patent issues - like
other
> MPEG standards there's a patent pool and certain licensing rules. It's
also
> nearly got an exclusive choke hold on mobile - so much so that Mozilla is
> considering ways to adopt H.264 support to avoid being left behind:
>
>
http://blog.lizardwrangler.com/2012/03/18/video-user-experience-and-our-mission/
>
> Is it time for us to think about H.264 encoding on our own videos?
>
> Right now users of millions of mobile phones and tablets have no access to
> our audio and video content, and our old desktop fallback of using a Java
> applet is unavailable.
>
> In theory we can produce a configuration with TimedMediaHandler to produce
> both H.264 and Theora/WebM transcodes, bringing Commons media to life for
> mobile users and Apple and Microsoft browser users.
>
> What do we think about this? What are the pros and cons?
>
> -- brion
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l [at] lists
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>

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lists at nadir-seen-fire

Mar 19, 2012, 9:04 PM

Post #3 of 47 (1556 views)
Permalink
Re: Video codecs and mobile [In reply to]

Not available yet? What century do you come from?

WebM has been supported in Firefox since 4, Chrome since 6, and Opera
since 10.6.
It's also apparently supported by Opera Mobile since <video> was
introduced and the Android browser since Gingerbread.

And where do you get off talking about h264 as modern format from this
century. h264's development started in the 20th century, it's been almost
10 years since the format was standardized. If you want to talk about
modern and this-century then you should be pointing to WebM which was
standardized recently in this century.

I do have one thing to say. I don't think we should drop plans to support
WebM. At the very least, if we do decide to add additional support for
h264 we should make sure to use <video> tags which include both a WebM and
h264 source.

--
~Daniel Friesen (Dantman, Nadir-Seen-Fire) [http://daniel.friesen.name]

On Mon, 19 Mar 2012 20:12:45 -0700, Mono <monomium [at] gmail> wrote:

> Please. Although WebM is a promising format, it's not available yet. The
> Java fallback is a solution even worse than just using Fash, so if we
> want
> to get with this century, I believe we have to hold our noses and adopt a
> modern format.
>
> On Monday, March 19, 2012, Brion Vibber <brion [at] pobox> wrote:
>> As some may know, we've restricted videos on Wikimedia sites to the
>> freely-licensed Ogg Theora codec for some years, with some intention to
>> support other non-patent-encumbered formats like WebM.
>>
>> One of our partners in pushing for free formats was Mozilla; Fire fox's
>> HTML5 video supports only Theora and WebM.
>>
>> The prime competing format, H.264, has potential patent issues - like
> other
>> MPEG standards there's a patent pool and certain licensing rules. It's
> also
>> nearly got an exclusive choke hold on mobile - so much so that Mozilla
>> is
>> considering ways to adopt H.264 support to avoid being left behind:
>>
>>
> http://blog.lizardwrangler.com/2012/03/18/video-user-experience-and-our-mission/
>>
>> Is it time for us to think about H.264 encoding on our own videos?
>>
>> Right now users of millions of mobile phones and tablets have no access
>> to
>> our audio and video content, and our old desktop fallback of using a
>> Java
>> applet is unavailable.
>>
>> In theory we can produce a configuration with TimedMediaHandler to
>> produce
>> both H.264 and Theora/WebM transcodes, bringing Commons media to life
>> for
>> mobile users and Apple and Microsoft browser users.
>>
>> What do we think about this? What are the pros and cons?
>>
>> -- brion

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mdale at wikimedia

Mar 19, 2012, 9:22 PM

Post #4 of 47 (1570 views)
Permalink
Re: Video codecs and mobile [In reply to]

On 03/19/2012 06:24 PM, Brion Vibber wrote:
> In theory we can produce a configuration with TimedMediaHandler to produce
> both H.264 and Theora/WebM transcodes, bringing Commons media to life for
> mobile users and Apple and Microsoft browser users.
>
> What do we think about this? What are the pros and cons?
>
> -- brion
>

The point about mobile is very true and its very very difficult to
debase entrenched formats, especially when its tied up in hardware
support. And of course the Kaltura HTML5 library used in TMH has a lot
of iPad and Android H.264 support code in there for all the commercial
usage of the library, so it would not be a technical challenge to
support it.

But I think we should get our existing TMH out the door exclusively
supporting WebM and Ogg. We and can revisit adding support for other
formats after that. High on that list is also mp3 support which would
have similar benefits for audio versions of articles and mobile hardware
support audio playback.

If people felt it was important, By the end of the year we could have
javascript based webm decoders for supporting WebM in IE10 ( in case
people never saw this: https://github.com/bemasc/Broadway ) But of
course this could be seen as <insert your favourite misguided good
efforts analogy here>. i.e maybe efforts are better focused on tools
streamlining video contribution process.

Maybe we focus on a way to upload h.264 videos from mobile. Of course
doing mobile h.264 uploads correctly would ideally include making source
content available, for maximising re-usability of content, without the
quality loss in multiple encoding passes, so in effect running up
against the very principal that governs the Wikimedia projects to make
content a freely reusable resources.

I think Mozilla adding /desktop/ h.264 support may hurt free formats. On
desktop they already have strong market share, and right now many
companies actually request including WebM in their encoding profiles (
on kaltura ) but that of course would not be true if the Mozilla
supports h.264 on desktop, and it would make it harder for google chrome
to follow through on their promise to only support WebM ( if they still
plan on doing that ).

For mobile it makes sense, Mozilla has no market share there and they
have to be attractive to device manufactures create a solid mobile user
experience, fit within device battery life expectations etc. And on
mobile there is no fall back to flash if the site can't afford to encode
all their content into free formats and multiple h.264 profiles. And
they can't afford that on a that browser / platform that people have to
generality /choose /to install and use.

If they support h.264 on desktop it will be a big set back for free
formats, because there won't be any incentive for the vast majority of
pragmatic sites to support webm.

--michael

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rlane32 at gmail

Mar 19, 2012, 9:41 PM

Post #5 of 47 (1577 views)
Permalink
Re: Video codecs and mobile [In reply to]

On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 6:24 PM, Brion Vibber <brion [at] pobox> wrote:
> As some may know, we've restricted videos on Wikimedia sites to the
> freely-licensed Ogg Theora codec for some years, with some intention to
> support other non-patent-encumbered formats like WebM.
>
> One of our partners in pushing for free formats was Mozilla; Fire fox's
> HTML5 video supports only Theora and WebM.
>
> The prime competing format, H.264, has potential patent issues - like other
> MPEG standards there's a patent pool and certain licensing rules. It's also
> nearly got an exclusive choke hold on mobile - so much so that Mozilla is
> considering ways to adopt H.264 support to avoid being left behind:
>
> http://blog.lizardwrangler.com/2012/03/18/video-user-experience-and-our-mission/
>
> Is it time for us to think about H.264 encoding on our own videos?
>
> Right now users of millions of mobile phones and tablets have no access to
> our audio and video content, and our old desktop fallback of using a Java
> applet is unavailable.
>
> In theory we can produce a configuration with TimedMediaHandler to produce
> both H.264 and Theora/WebM transcodes, bringing Commons media to life for
> mobile users and Apple and Microsoft browser users.
>
> What do we think about this? What are the pros and cons?
>

Would we not need to pay royalties to encode from/to h264? I know
streaming h264 is allowed royalty-free, but I thought encoding it was
not.

- Ryan

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monomium at gmail

Mar 19, 2012, 10:21 PM

Post #6 of 47 (1572 views)
Permalink
Re: Video codecs and mobile [In reply to]

No, it's just none of my programs have an 'export to off' or an 'export to
WebM' feature and as much as we might want to, we can't ignore old
technology, like IE (even IE7) or Safari (mobile). h264 may not be modern,
but it is widely used. I believe we should create a platform that can
encode both WebM and H264, with support for native <element>s and Flash.

On Monday, March 19, 2012, Daniel Friesen <lists [at] nadir-seen-fire> wrote:
> Not available yet? What century do you come from?
>
> WebM has been supported in Firefox since 4, Chrome since 6, and Opera
since 10.6.
> It's also apparently supported by Opera Mobile since <video> was
introduced and the Android browser since Gingerbread.
>
> And where do you get off talking about h264 as modern format from this
century. h264's development started in the 20th century, it's been almost
10 years since the format was standardized. If you want to talk about
modern and this-century then you should be pointing to WebM which was
standardized recently in this century.
>
> I do have one thing to say. I don't think we should drop plans to support
WebM. At the very least, if we do decide to add additional support for h264
we should make sure to use <video> tags which include both a WebM and h264
source.
>
> --
> ~Daniel Friesen (Dantman, Nadir-Seen-Fire) [http://daniel.friesen.name]
>
> On Mon, 19 Mar 2012 20:12:45 -0700, Mono <monomium [at] gmail> wrote:
>
>> Please. Although WebM is a promising format, it's not available yet. The
>> Java fallback is a solution even worse than just using Fash, so if we
want
>> to get with this century, I believe we have to hold our noses and adopt a
>> modern format.
>>
>> On Monday, March 19, 2012, Brion Vibber <brion [at] pobox> wrote:
>>>
>>> As some may know, we've restricted videos on Wikimedia sites to the
>>> freely-licensed Ogg Theora codec for some years, with some intention to
>>> support other non-patent-encumbered formats like WebM.
>>>
>>> One of our partners in pushing for free formats was Mozilla; Fire fox's
>>> HTML5 video supports only Theora and WebM.
>>>
>>> The prime competing format, H.264, has potential patent issues - like
>>
>> other
>>>
>>> MPEG standards there's a patent pool and certain licensing rules. It's
>>
>> also
>>>
>>> nearly got an exclusive choke hold on mobile - so much so that Mozilla
is
>>> considering ways to adopt H.264 support to avoid being left behind:
>>>
>>>
>>
http://blog.lizardwrangler.com/2012/03/18/video-user-experience-and-our-mission/
>>>
>>> Is it time for us to think about H.264 encoding on our own videos?
>>>
>>> Right now users of millions of mobile phones and tablets have no access
to
>>> our audio and video content, and our old desktop fallback of using a
Java
>>> applet is unavailable.
>>>
>>> In theory we can produce a configuration with TimedMediaHandler to
produce
>>> both H.264 and Theora/WebM transcodes, bringing Commons media to life
for
>>> mobile users and Apple and Microsoft browser users.
>>>
>>> What do we think about this? What are the pros and cons?
>>>
>>> -- brion
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l [at] lists
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>

--
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dgerard at gmail

Mar 19, 2012, 11:51 PM

Post #7 of 47 (1551 views)
Permalink
Re: Video codecs and mobile [In reply to]

On 20 March 2012 01:24, Brion Vibber <brion [at] pobox> wrote:

> In theory we can produce a configuration with TimedMediaHandler to produce
> both H.264 and Theora/WebM transcodes, bringing Commons media to life for
> mobile users and Apple and Microsoft browser users.
> What do we think about this? What are the pros and cons?


No. Just because Mozilla has decided to do the wrong thing for
commercial reasons does not somehow compel us to. It's only pressure
from users that will get the companies to use unlocked formats.


- d.

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manuel.schneider at wikimedia

Mar 20, 2012, 12:17 AM

Post #8 of 47 (1551 views)
Permalink
Re: Video codecs and mobile [In reply to]

Good morning,

after reading all mails in this thread I'd like to comment on this. I
care about this topic as I am leading the WikiTV project we started in
Germany (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiTV#WikiTV_.28on_demand.29).

I would appreciate to see WebM out soon, I think that is important. So
here I agree with Michael - get the TMH released and then add H.264
support later.

What is unclear to me: Do you mean to store all video data in an
intermediate format (be it Ogg or WebM or whatever) and then do a
realtime encoding based on the browsers preference and capabilities?

From a usability point of view this would be perfect. I wouldn't be
happy if I needed to upload WikiTV shows in three different formats in
the future and I think it would also wasting a lot of disk space.
Let alone that these files need a developer to actually get imported
into Commons from a FTP server we have to host on our end because we
can't upload more than 100 MB, which are 80% of our files.


/Manuel
--
Regards
Manuel Schneider

Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Frderung Freien Wissens
Wikimedia CH - Association for the advancement of free knowledge
www.wikimedia.ch

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oscar.vives at gmail

Mar 20, 2012, 2:59 AM

Post #9 of 47 (1550 views)
Permalink
Re: Video codecs and mobile [In reply to]

On 20 March 2012 02:24, Brion Vibber <brion [at] pobox> wrote:
..
> In theory we can produce a configuration with TimedMediaHandler to produce
> both H.264 and Theora/WebM transcodes, bringing Commons media to life for
> mobile users and Apple and Microsoft browser users.
>
> What do we think about this? What are the pros and cons?
>
> -- brion

H.264 is a propietery format, and the owners can start asking for a
tax to encoders, decoders and users.

Wikipedia would not be the "free encyclopedia" if you start asking
people money for watching videos :D

What perhaps can be done, withouth hurting the cause of freedom much,
is to have the encoder. So if you uploade a propietery h.264 video,
its encoded into a free format. You still helps the H.264 to spread,
so is not that cool. If the owners of h.264 start asking money to
encoders, you can drop support for the format. Nobody is damaged
(people sould change habits of what format video to upload).

The problem can be output. What free format a iPhone support?, if the
reply is none, then you have to choise no service at all, or output
video in h.264. Not serving people is bad, and serving h.264 is bad
because you help h.264 gains more ground, hurting the cause of open
formats. Theres no good option. IF you can serve a video that a
iPhone can watch, even if using some crappy javascript or java format,
you avoid pushing h.264 (so you help the cause of free formats). If
this solution is slow, you create a incentive for iPhone to support a
open format (what is good again), and everyone can watch all videos
(what is good again).



--
--
ℱin del ℳensaje.

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dgerard at gmail

Mar 20, 2012, 3:15 AM

Post #10 of 47 (1577 views)
Permalink
Re: Video codecs and mobile [In reply to]

On 20 March 2012 09:59, Tei <oscar.vives [at] gmail> wrote:

> What perhaps can be done, withouth hurting the cause of freedom much,
> is to have the encoder.    So if you uploade a propietery h.264 video,
> its encoded into a free format.  You still helps the H.264 to spread,
> so is not that cool.  If the owners of h.264 start asking money to
> encoders, you can drop support for the format. Nobody is damaged
> (people sould change habits of what format video to upload).


We should definitely be able to ingest H.264. (This has been on the
wishlist forever and is a much harder problem than it sounds.)


> The problem can be output. What free format a iPhone support?, if the
> reply is none, then you have to choise no service at all, or output
> video in h.264.   Not serving people is bad, and serving h.264 is bad
> because you help h.264 gains more ground, hurting the cause of open
> formats. Theres no good option.   IF you can serve a video that a
> iPhone can watch, even if using some crappy javascript or java format,
> you avoid pushing h.264 (so you help the cause of free formats).  If
> this solution is slow, you create a incentive for iPhone to support a
> open format (what is good again), and everyone can watch all videos
> (what is good again).


Android supports Theora. The significant holdout is Apple.


- d.

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stephen.bain at gmail

Mar 20, 2012, 3:42 AM

Post #11 of 47 (1552 views)
Permalink
Re: Video codecs and mobile [In reply to]

On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 8:59 PM, Tei <oscar.vives [at] gmail> wrote:
>
> The problem can be output. What free format a iPhone support?

This is a good question. Obviously, in hardware it will support only H.264.

In terms of software decoders there is at least one VP8 decoder that
will work on ARM processors, though I have no idea if it has been
implemented into any iOS apps yet.

Of course that doesn't help anyone trying to watch video in the
browser, but support could be implemented into, eg, the Foundation's
official Wikipedia app for iOS (unless there are rules against it?
I've heard that Apple requires use of HTTP Live Streaming for in-app
videos of a certain length?).

Does anyone know if there are any decoders for VP8 or Theora using
OpenCL? It seems hard to find solid information on this subject...

--
Stephen Bain
stephen.bain [at] gmail

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dgerard at gmail

Mar 20, 2012, 3:54 AM

Post #12 of 47 (1549 views)
Permalink
Re: Video codecs and mobile [In reply to]

On 20 March 2012 10:42, Stephen Bain <stephen.bain [at] gmail> wrote:

> Of course that doesn't help anyone trying to watch video in the
> browser, but support could be implemented into, eg, the Foundation's
> official Wikipedia app for iOS (unless there are rules against it?


If Apple tries to stop Wikipedia using VP8 or Theora codecs, that
would be something worth making a small fuss over.


- d.

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vasilvv at gmail

Mar 20, 2012, 4:13 AM

Post #13 of 47 (1566 views)
Permalink
Re: Video codecs and mobile [In reply to]

On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 5:24 AM, Brion Vibber <brion [at] pobox> wrote:
> Is it time for us to think about H.264 encoding on our own videos?
>

Hello, Brion.

I think it is time for Apple to support Wikipedia videos. I suggest
that we view the thing from this point of view Apple do not run a
Top-10 site, we do.

I would say that running something on Wikimedia servers which requires
us to pay royalties seems incompatible to our mission. As far as I
understand, that would be required for video transcoding. Same for
MP3. Same was for Flash, which we did not use even though there were
numerous cases when it was essential (we still cannot upload >100MB
files to Commons because of that).

It's not like it is that bad. OGG/WebM are supported by most major
browsers, except IE, Safari and their mobile counterparts. Even for
the first two, there are codecs available.

vvv

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lars at aronsson

Mar 20, 2012, 7:03 AM

Post #14 of 47 (1557 views)
Permalink
Re: Video codecs and mobile [In reply to]

On 03/20/2012 02:24 AM, Brion Vibber wrote:
> The prime competing format, H.264, has potential patent issues - like other
> MPEG standards there's a patent pool and certain licensing rules. It's also
> nearly got an exclusive choke hold on mobile - so much so that Mozilla is
> considering ways to adopt H.264 support to avoid being left behind:
>
> http://blog.lizardwrangler.com/2012/03/18/video-user-experience-and-our-mission/
>
> Is it time for us to think about H.264 encoding on our own videos?
>
> Right now users of millions of mobile phones and tablets have no access to
> our audio and video content,

Which are the patents and when do they expire? Which are the
platforms that don't support Theora, and what stops them?
Maybe we should flood Wikipedia's most visited articles with
videos, so millions of users will be made aware that the makers
of their equipment (Apple iPad?) should support open formats.

Now, if we were to take this path, how do we flood Wikipedia with
videos? Live interviews in all biographies of living people?
If this turns out to be completely unrealistic, because we can't
produce videos in sufficient quantity, then maybe the time is not
yet mature for video in Wikipedia.

I thought it was so 2-3 years ago, but I was wrong. I started this
table, http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category_talk:Videos_by_country
and there are now 12 videos in "Videos from Denmark", up from 2 in
2009 and 3 in 2011. But it hasn't exploded into the hundreds or
thousands. (If you know of more videos that should be in these
categories, please help with categorization!)

I think it would be a great help if I could upload any video format
to Wikimedia Commons, and it would be converted to Theora on the
server side. Then contributors would only need to be experts on
shooting the video, and not on running all the Linux commands
to convert between formats.


--
Lars Aronsson (lars [at] aronsson)
Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se


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manuel.schneider at wikimedia

Mar 20, 2012, 7:06 AM

Post #15 of 47 (1569 views)
Permalink
Re: Video codecs and mobile [In reply to]

Hej Lars,

On 03/20/2012 03:03 PM, Lars Aronsson wrote:
> Now, if we were to take this path, how do we flood Wikipedia with
> videos? Live interviews in all biographies of living people?
> If this turns out to be completely unrealistic, because we can't
> produce videos in sufficient quantity, then maybe the time is not
> yet mature for video in Wikipedia.

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiTV
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiTV
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:WikiTV_%28DE%29
http://wikimania2012.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/WikiTV

;-)


/Manuel
--
Regards
Manuel Schneider

Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Frderung Freien Wissens
Wikimedia CH - Association for the advancement of free knowledge
www.wikimedia.ch

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lcarr at wikimedia

Mar 20, 2012, 7:47 AM

Post #16 of 47 (1561 views)
Permalink
Re: Video codecs and mobile [In reply to]

On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 6:13 AM, Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv [at] gmail> wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 5:24 AM, Brion Vibber <brion [at] pobox> wrote:
>> Is it time for us to think about H.264 encoding on our own videos?
>>
>
> Hello, Brion.
>
> I think it is time for Apple to support Wikipedia videos. I suggest
> that we view the thing from this point of view Apple do not run a
> Top-10 site, we do.

That would be nice but is completely unrealistic. Apple doesn't
support Flash and that's on a lot more sites of the world. They don't
bow to pressure from major players who could make them $$$, and they
are certainly not going to bow to us. Besides, the lack of wikipedia
videos does not appear to be hurting their performance.

Apple has a 30% market share for US smart phones[1] and their global
tablet share is 58% [2]

Since such a huge market share basically requires H.264 encoding, I
think we should bite the bullet and go for it. If suddenly they start
charging, we can drop it immediately.


[1] http://www.engadget.com/2012/03/07/comscore-us-subscriber-count-reaches-100-million-android-and-i/
[2] http://www.engadget.com/2012/01/26/strategy-analytics-apple-still-owns-tablet-market-but-android/
--
Leslie Carr
Wikimedia Foundation
AS 14907, 43821

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stephen.bain at gmail

Mar 20, 2012, 8:26 AM

Post #17 of 47 (1591 views)
Permalink
Re: Video codecs and mobile [In reply to]

On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 1:47 AM, Leslie Carr <lcarr [at] wikimedia> wrote:
>
> Since such a huge market share basically requires H.264 encoding, I
> think we should bite the bullet and go for it. If suddenly they start
> charging, we can drop it immediately.

Those accessing Wikimedia in the browser, yes.

It does seem to be possible to support alternative codecs in software
within apps. Here is one example:

http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/id406779775

VLC player also used to be available though it was pulled due to a
clash between the code's GPL license and the App Store terms of
service, it seems:

http://www.macnn.com/articles/11/01/07/move.said.to.be.related.to.licensing.dispute/

It would seem possible to bake Theora or WebM support into the iOS app
and direct users there if browsing from mobile Safari. Performance
would not be so great given it would only be software decoding (this
is why I was asking if anyone is aware of OpenCL decoders).

--
Stephen Bain
stephen.bain [at] gmail

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jeblad at gmail

Mar 20, 2012, 8:30 AM

Post #18 of 47 (1572 views)
Permalink
Re: Video codecs and mobile [In reply to]

Use open format, closed format and open content don't mix.

John

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oscar.vives at gmail

Mar 20, 2012, 9:08 AM

Post #19 of 47 (1566 views)
Permalink
Re: Video codecs and mobile [In reply to]

On 20 March 2012 16:26, Stephen Bain <stephen.bain [at] gmail> wrote:
...
> It would seem possible to bake Theora or WebM support into the iOS app
> and direct users there if browsing from mobile Safari. Performance
> would not be so great given it would only be software decoding (this
> is why I was asking if anyone is aware of OpenCL decoders).

This sounds sweet.

Youtube also works somewhat like that: wen you want to see a youtube
video link, the youtube app opens. It may make sense for a iOS user to
have a wikipedia video opening the wikipedia app. I have heard that
the wikipedia app is rather good, too. :DD


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lists at nadir-seen-fire

Mar 20, 2012, 9:29 AM

Post #20 of 47 (1549 views)
Permalink
Re: Video codecs and mobile [In reply to]

On Tue, 20 Mar 2012 07:03:06 -0700, Lars Aronsson <lars [at] aronsson> wrote:

> On 03/20/2012 02:24 AM, Brion Vibber wrote:
>> The prime competing format, H.264, has potential patent issues - like
>> other
>> MPEG standards there's a patent pool and certain licensing rules. It's
>> also
>> nearly got an exclusive choke hold on mobile - so much so that Mozilla
>> is
>> considering ways to adopt H.264 support to avoid being left behind:
>>
>> http://blog.lizardwrangler.com/2012/03/18/video-user-experience-and-our-mission/
>>
>> Is it time for us to think about H.264 encoding on our own videos?
>>
>> Right now users of millions of mobile phones and tablets have no access
>> to
>> our audio and video content,
>
> Which are the patents and when do they expire? Which are the
> platforms that don't support Theora, and what stops them?
> Maybe we should flood Wikipedia's most visited articles with
> videos, so millions of users will be made aware that the makers
> of their equipment (Apple iPad?) should support open formats.
>
> Now, if we were to take this path, how do we flood Wikipedia with
> videos? Live interviews in all biographies of living people?
> If this turns out to be completely unrealistic, because we can't
> produce videos in sufficient quantity, then maybe the time is not
> yet mature for video in Wikipedia.

Anyone have a good stockpile of old Public Domain movies?
I believe there are also at least two freely licensed movies. Everyone is
using Blender's CC-BY "Big Buck Bunny" for <video> demos. And I believe
there was another film that was openly distributed using .torrents.
How about embedding full movies into the articles into the Wikipedia
articles about the movies when said movie is a freely licensed modern
movie or a Public Domain film?

> I thought it was so 2-3 years ago, but I was wrong. I started this
> table, http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category_talk:Videos_by_country
> and there are now 12 videos in "Videos from Denmark", up from 2 in
> 2009 and 3 in 2011. But it hasn't exploded into the hundreds or
> thousands. (If you know of more videos that should be in these
> categories, please help with categorization!)
>
> I think it would be a great help if I could upload any video format
> to Wikimedia Commons, and it would be converted to Theora on the
> server side. Then contributors would only need to be experts on
> shooting the video, and not on running all the Linux commands
> to convert between formats.

--
~Daniel Friesen (Dantman, Nadir-Seen-Fire) [http://daniel.friesen.name]

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tfinc at wikimedia

Mar 20, 2012, 9:36 AM

Post #21 of 47 (1551 views)
Permalink
Re: Video codecs and mobile [In reply to]

On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 9:08 AM, Tei <oscar.vives [at] gmail> wrote:
>> It would seem possible to bake Theora or WebM support into the iOS app
>> and direct users there if browsing from mobile Safari. Performance
>> would not be so great given it would only be software decoding (this
>> is why I was asking if anyone is aware of OpenCL decoders).

If anyone wants to take this on then do let know. Were about to push a
brand new code base for the app so poke us on #wikimedia-mobile for
pointers.

--tomasz

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oscar.vives at gmail

Mar 20, 2012, 9:40 AM

Post #22 of 47 (1568 views)
Permalink
Re: Video codecs and mobile [In reply to]

On 20 March 2012 15:03, Lars Aronsson <lars [at] aronsson> wrote:
..
> Now, if we were to take this path, how do we flood Wikipedia with
> videos? Live interviews in all biographies of living people?
> If this turns out to be completely unrealistic, because we can't
> produce videos in sufficient quantity, then maybe the time is not
> yet mature for video in Wikipedia.

Perhaps if you allow uploading video to articles. All these "Small
City Wikipedia Page" will have a short clip of the Main Street made
with a movil phone. The 'technical' quality of the video will not very
high... until the wiki effect quicks-in, and a new better video
replace it. Everybody have a camera in his pocket, in 2012.


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questpc at rambler

Mar 20, 2012, 10:18 AM

Post #23 of 47 (1571 views)
Permalink
Re: Video codecs and mobile [In reply to]

On 20.03.2012 20:29, Daniel Friesen wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Mar 2012 07:03:06 -0700, Lars Aronsson <lars [at] aronsson>
> wrote:
>
>> On 03/20/2012 02:24 AM, Brion Vibber wrote:
>>> The prime competing format, H.264, has potential patent issues -
>>> like other
>>> MPEG standards there's a patent pool and certain licensing rules.
>>> It's also
>>> nearly got an exclusive choke hold on mobile - so much so that
>>> Mozilla is
>>> considering ways to adopt H.264 support to avoid being left behind:
>>>
>>> http://blog.lizardwrangler.com/2012/03/18/video-user-experience-and-our-mission/
>>>
>>>
>>> Is it time for us to think about H.264 encoding on our own videos?
>>>
>>> Right now users of millions of mobile phones and tablets have no
>>> access to
>>> our audio and video content,
>>
>> Which are the patents and when do they expire? Which are the
>> platforms that don't support Theora, and what stops them?
>> Maybe we should flood Wikipedia's most visited articles with
>> videos, so millions of users will be made aware that the makers
>> of their equipment (Apple iPad?) should support open formats.
>>
>> Now, if we were to take this path, how do we flood Wikipedia with
>> videos? Live interviews in all biographies of living people?
>> If this turns out to be completely unrealistic, because we can't
>> produce videos in sufficient quantity, then maybe the time is not
>> yet mature for video in Wikipedia.
>
> Anyone have a good stockpile of old Public Domain movies?
> I believe there are also at least two freely licensed movies. Everyone
> is using Blender's CC-BY "Big Buck Bunny" for <video> demos. And I
> believe there was another film that was openly distributed using
> .torrents.
> How about embedding full movies into the articles into the Wikipedia
> articles about the movies when said movie is a freely licensed modern
> movie or a Public Domain film?
>
Are these PD? There are quite a lot of them.
http://www.archive.org/details/movies
Dmitriy


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dgerard at gmail

Mar 20, 2012, 10:26 AM

Post #24 of 47 (1562 views)
Permalink
Re: Video codecs and mobile [In reply to]

On 20 March 2012 01:24, Brion Vibber <brion [at] pobox> wrote:

> In theory we can produce a configuration with TimedMediaHandler to produce
> both H.264 and Theora/WebM transcodes, bringing Commons media to life for
> mobile users and Apple and Microsoft browser users.
> What do we think about this? What are the pros and cons?


This is too big an issue to resolve only on the tech list - I've
forwarded your message to foundation-l as well.


- d.

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mdale at wikimedia

Mar 20, 2012, 10:48 AM

Post #25 of 47 (1551 views)
Permalink
Re: Video codecs and mobile [In reply to]

On 03/20/2012 03:15 AM, David Gerard wrote:
> We should definitely be able to ingest H.264. (This has been on the
> wishlist forever and is a much harder problem than it sounds.)

Once TMH is deployed, practically speaking .. upload to youtube ->
import to commons .. will probably be the easiest path for a while.
Especially given the tight integration youtube has with every phone, and
any capture device with web.

But yes the feature should be developed, and it is more difficult then
it sounds when you want to carefully consider things like making the
source file available.

--michael

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