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RFC: Modifying diff colors due to color blindness issues

 

 

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diebuche at gmail

Jul 27, 2011, 6:42 AM

Post #1 of 13 (794 views)
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RFC: Modifying diff colors due to color blindness issues

Hi folks

please have a look at Bug
11374<https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11374>: Red
.diffchange text in the green 'added' area may be hard to read for
color blinded users.

Since it's a rather prominent place, I wouldn't mind some comments on the
proposed patch by Krinkle, slightly modified by me.
The changes would end up looking like
this<http://commons.wikimedia.org/?debug=true&diff=55008419&withCSS=MediaWiki:Gadget-diffRedGreen.css>
.


Cheers, Leo
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morton.thomas at googlemail

Jul 27, 2011, 6:47 AM

Post #2 of 13 (780 views)
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Re: RFC: Modifying diff colors due to color blindness issues [In reply to]

Those are much nicer colours, anyway, in my opinion.

Tom

On 27 July 2011 14:42, Leo Koppelkamm <diebuche [at] gmail> wrote:

> Hi folks
>
> please have a look at Bug
> 11374<https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11374>: Red
> .diffchange text in the green 'added' area may be hard to read for
> color blinded users.
>
> Since it's a rather prominent place, I wouldn't mind some comments on the
> proposed patch by Krinkle, slightly modified by me.
> The changes would end up looking like
> this<
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/?debug=true&diff=55008419&withCSS=MediaWiki:Gadget-diffRedGreen.css
> >
> .
>
>
> Cheers, Leo
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l [at] lists
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
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p858snake at gmail

Jul 27, 2011, 6:52 AM

Post #3 of 13 (781 views)
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Re: RFC: Modifying diff colors due to color blindness issues [In reply to]

The proposed change is worse for me, they don't stand out in the diffs....

I suggest we stick to a Yellow and Blue combo, that colour combo has
the least and is the most uncommon type of colour blindness compared
to the other types which encompass most other colours, thus having the
least likeliness to actually affect to those users with colour
blindness.

-KP

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helder.wiki at gmail

Jul 27, 2011, 7:07 AM

Post #4 of 13 (782 views)
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Re: RFC: Modifying diff colors due to color blindness issues [In reply to]

On Portuguese Wikibooks we use the same formatting which is used on French
Wikipedia:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Common.css
Here is an example:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Common.css&diff=prev&oldid=67735346

Helder

On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 10:42, Leo Koppelkamm <diebuche [at] gmail> wrote:

> Hi folks
>
> please have a look at Bug
> 11374<https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11374>: Red
> .diffchange text in the green 'added' area may be hard to read for
> color blinded users.
>
> Since it's a rather prominent place, I wouldn't mind some comments on the
> proposed patch by Krinkle, slightly modified by me.
> The changes would end up looking like
> this<
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/?debug=true&diff=55008419&withCSS=MediaWiki:Gadget-diffRedGreen.css
> >
> .
>
>
> Cheers, Leo
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l [at] lists
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
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diebuche at gmail

Jul 27, 2011, 7:17 AM

Post #5 of 13 (784 views)
Permalink
Re: RFC: Modifying diff colors due to color blindness issues [In reply to]

Do you mean yellow left and blue right? Just to make sure the bug is not
mainly about left vs. right color, but about the red highlight on a green or
yellow background.
That red highlight is hard to discriminate for red-green colorblind users (
see http://imgur.com/9AldW for a simulation ).


On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 3:52 PM, K. Peachey <p858snake [at] gmail> wrote:

> The proposed change is worse for me, they don't stand out in the diffs....
>
> I suggest we stick to a Yellow and Blue combo, that colour combo has
> the least and is the most uncommon type of colour blindness compared
> to the other types which encompass most other colours, thus having the
> least likeliness to actually affect to those users with colour
> blindness.
>
> -KP
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l [at] lists
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
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rkaldari at wikimedia

Jul 27, 2011, 10:38 AM

Post #6 of 13 (782 views)
Permalink
Re: RFC: Modifying diff colors due to color blindness issues [In reply to]

I always thought the French diff interface was much more pleasant than
the default one. I like Krinkle's version as well. They could both stand
to bump up the contrast a little, but otherwise I think they are an
improvement.

Ryan Kaldari

On 7/27/11 7:17 AM, Leo Koppelkamm wrote:
> Do you mean yellow left and blue right? Just to make sure the bug is not
> mainly about left vs. right color, but about the red highlight on a green or
> yellow background.
> That red highlight is hard to discriminate for red-green colorblind users (
> see http://imgur.com/9AldW for a simulation ).
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 3:52 PM, K. Peachey<p858snake [at] gmail> wrote:
>
>> The proposed change is worse for me, they don't stand out in the diffs....
>>
>> I suggest we stick to a Yellow and Blue combo, that colour combo has
>> the least and is the most uncommon type of colour blindness compared
>> to the other types which encompass most other colours, thus having the
>> least likeliness to actually affect to those users with colour
>> blindness.
>>
>> -KP
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>> Wikitech-l [at] lists
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l [at] lists
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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bharris at wikimedia

Jul 27, 2011, 10:39 AM

Post #7 of 13 (781 views)
Permalink
Re: RFC: Modifying diff colors due to color blindness issues [In reply to]

Underlines and overlines. I would like to see an experimental version
with those.


On 7/27/11 10:38 AM, Ryan Kaldari wrote:
> I always thought the French diff interface was much more pleasant than
> the default one. I like Krinkle's version as well. They could both stand
> to bump up the contrast a little, but otherwise I think they are an
> improvement.
>
> Ryan Kaldari
>
> On 7/27/11 7:17 AM, Leo Koppelkamm wrote:
>> Do you mean yellow left and blue right? Just to make sure the bug is not
>> mainly about left vs. right color, but about the red highlight on a green or
>> yellow background.
>> That red highlight is hard to discriminate for red-green colorblind users (
>> see http://imgur.com/9AldW for a simulation ).
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 3:52 PM, K. Peachey<p858snake [at] gmail> wrote:
>>
>>> The proposed change is worse for me, they don't stand out in the diffs....
>>>
>>> I suggest we stick to a Yellow and Blue combo, that colour combo has
>>> the least and is the most uncommon type of colour blindness compared
>>> to the other types which encompass most other colours, thus having the
>>> least likeliness to actually affect to those users with colour
>>> blindness.
>>>
>>> -KP
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>>> Wikitech-l [at] lists
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>> Wikitech-l [at] lists
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l [at] lists
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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george.herbert at gmail

Jul 27, 2011, 11:33 AM

Post #8 of 13 (778 views)
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Re: RFC: Modifying diff colors due to color blindness issues [In reply to]

Could we get visual mockups of the various proposals, preferably
stacked on one page so we can compare them fairly easily?


On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 10:39 AM, Brandon Harris <bharris [at] wikimedia> wrote:
>
>        Underlines and overlines.  I would like to see an experimental version
> with those.
>
>
> On 7/27/11 10:38 AM, Ryan Kaldari wrote:
>> I always thought the French diff interface was much more pleasant than
>> the default one. I like Krinkle's version as well. They could both stand
>> to bump up the contrast a little, but otherwise I think they are an
>> improvement.
>>
>> Ryan Kaldari
>>
>> On 7/27/11 7:17 AM, Leo Koppelkamm wrote:
>>> Do you mean yellow left and blue right? Just to make sure the bug is not
>>> mainly about left vs. right color, but about the red highlight on a green or
>>> yellow background.
>>> That red highlight is hard to discriminate for red-green colorblind users (
>>> see http://imgur.com/9AldW for a simulation ).
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 3:52 PM, K. Peachey<p858snake [at] gmail>   wrote:
>>>
>>>> The proposed change is worse for me, they don't stand out in the diffs....
>>>>
>>>> I suggest we stick to a Yellow and Blue combo, that colour combo has
>>>> the least and is the most uncommon type of colour blindness compared
>>>> to the other types which encompass most other colours, thus having the
>>>> least likeliness to actually affect to those users with colour
>>>> blindness.
>>>>
>>>> -KP
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>>>> Wikitech-l [at] lists
>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>>> Wikitech-l [at] lists
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>> Wikitech-l [at] lists
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l [at] lists
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>



--
-george william herbert
george.herbert [at] gmail

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bharris at wikimedia

Jul 27, 2011, 11:43 AM

Post #9 of 13 (779 views)
Permalink
Re: RFC: Modifying diff colors due to color blindness issues [In reply to]

On a related tangent to this, actually:

I have, in the past, provided users with a "color blindness"
preference. I'm not a big fan of preferences overall (too much clutter)
but a "visually-impaired/color blind" one is a preference I'd not fight
and would even welcome.

What such a preference would do would be to load special style files
that would do certain things (like change the diff colors to something
more preferable). Sometimes these changes are *horrible* looking to
people with color vision, other times not (one site I worked on we
turned all links to be underlined).

Obviously, the site needs to work for color blind users even without a
preference, but it may be possible to make it *nicer* for them.



On 7/27/11 6:42 AM, Leo Koppelkamm wrote:
> Hi folks
>
> please have a look at Bug
> 11374<https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11374>: Red
> .diffchange text in the green 'added' area may be hard to read for
> color blinded users.
>
> Since it's a rather prominent place, I wouldn't mind some comments on the
> proposed patch by Krinkle, slightly modified by me.
> The changes would end up looking like
> this<http://commons.wikimedia.org/?debug=true&diff=55008419&withCSS=MediaWiki:Gadget-diffRedGreen.css>
> .
>
>
> Cheers, Leo
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l [at] lists
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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diebuche at gmail

Jul 27, 2011, 2:31 PM

Post #10 of 13 (771 views)
Permalink
Re: RFC: Modifying diff colors due to color blindness issues [In reply to]

On Wednesday, July 27, 2011 at 8:33 PM, George Herbert wrote:
> Could we get visual mockups of the various proposals, preferably
> stacked on one page so we can compare them fairly easily?
Red/Green
http://commons.wikimedia.org/?debug=true&diff=55008419&withCSS=MediaWiki:Gadget-diffRedGreen3.css

Red/Blue
http://commons.wikimedia.org/?debug=true&diff=55008419&withCSS=MediaWiki:Gadget-diffRedGreen4.css

Optionally without the small grey border:

Red/Green w/o border
http://commons.wikimedia.org/?debug=true&diff=55008419&withCSS=MediaWiki:Gadget-diffRedGreen2.css

Red/Blue w/o border
http://commons.wikimedia.org/?debug=true&diff=55008419&withCSS=MediaWiki:Gadget-diffRedGreen5.css

Leo
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egil at wp

Jul 27, 2011, 3:49 PM

Post #11 of 13 (767 views)
Permalink
Re: RFC: Modifying diff colors due to color blindness issues [In reply to]

Leo Koppelkamm (2011-07-27 23:31):
> On Wednesday, July 27, 2011 at 8:33 PM, George Herbert wrote:
>> Could we get visual mockups of the various proposals, preferably
>> stacked on one page so we can compare them fairly easily?
> Red/Green
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/?debug=true&diff=55008419&withCSS=MediaWiki:Gadget-diffRedGreen3.css
>
> Red/Blue
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/?debug=true&diff=55008419&withCSS=MediaWiki:Gadget-diffRedGreen4.css
>
> Optionally without the small grey border:
>
> Red/Green w/o border
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/?debug=true&diff=55008419&withCSS=MediaWiki:Gadget-diffRedGreen2.css
>
> Red/Blue w/o border
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/?debug=true&diff=55008419&withCSS=MediaWiki:Gadget-diffRedGreen5.css
>

I like the first red green (without the border), but if at it there
should probably be more distinction between the grey, red and green
colours. I was working on a picture on Commons some time ago after being
poked by a colour blind person and found out that the problem was not
the colour itself, but Value of colours (Value as in HSV model). So what
I did is changed one colour a bit and made a greyscale image of the
picture and I've then changed a bit more until I was able to
differentiate the colours in greyscale mode.

So in this case I would at least change the colours so that unchanged
line (grey) would be different (in Value) from the changed line (red/green).

Regards,
Nux.

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bharris at wikimedia

Jul 27, 2011, 4:19 PM

Post #12 of 13 (769 views)
Permalink
Re: RFC: Modifying diff colors due to color blindness issues [In reply to]

On 7/27/11 3:49 PM, Maciej Jaros wrote:

> I like the first red green (without the border), but if at it there
> should probably be more distinction between the grey, red and green
> colours. I was working on a picture on Commons some time ago after being
> poked by a colour blind person and found out that the problem was not
> the colour itself, but Value of colours (Value as in HSV model). So what
> I did is changed one colour a bit and made a greyscale image of the
> picture and I've then changed a bit more until I was able to
> differentiate the colours in greyscale mode.
>
> So in this case I would at least change the colours so that unchanged
> line (grey) would be different (in Value) from the changed line (red/green).


Picking the correct intensity for the colors is something that we can
deal with as needs be. The actual colors themselves are more important,
from a psychological point of view.

As I said in the bug itself, by using red and green we are
(accidentally) making a moral judgement about the revision. Humans are
hard-wired to see red as bad and green as good (blood vs. forest/life).
Revisions are, by their nature, amoral - so tagging one as "bad" and
another as "good" goes against our purpose.

Hence why I say they should be red/blue or green/blue. I originally
suggested red/blue because we want to know what was removed, but
thinking over it more I think it should be green/blue.

As far as the boxes go, I think they're essential. You should *never*
use color alone to indicate important information. Bolding the text and
increasing the saturation of the background color is a step, but it's
still possible for people with poor vision to mistake these things.

Macular degeneration can make distinguishing color variants difficult
(it sort of blurs the point of the eye's focus together), so including
express contrast elements (e.g., boxes or lines) helps to offset this.
While this thread is nominally about color blindness, I don't think
we'll go wrong by increasing scope to a larger set of visual problems.

(Note that we CANNOT and SHOULD NOT design for people with advanced
macular degeneration; this is beyond the scope of nearly any visual
design. But there are people who have similar problems [cataracts, for
instance] that lend to "lighter" versions of the same visual acuity
problems.)

Protip: Photoshop has a way to show how things look to color blind people:

View -> Proof Setup -> Color Blindness (there are two options, you
should try both)

Then:

View -> Proof Colors

To return to normal, just unset View -> Proof Colors.

Fun facts: There are three major types of color blindness. Two are
red/green and one is blue/yellow. The blue/yellow (tritanopia) is rarer.

The *rarest* form of color blindness is called "monochromacy" - black
and white vision. It's *extremely* rare. . . unless you live on one
specific island in Micronesia.

(There's another kind of monochromacy but it's mostly found in people
with really, really bad eyes and its kind of the least of their problems).

(I know all this crap because I once worked for at a company where the
CTO was color blind. So it is fairly ingrained in me now.)



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Platonides at gmail

Jul 27, 2011, 4:31 PM

Post #13 of 13 (762 views)
Permalink
Re: RFC: Modifying diff colors due to color blindness issues [In reply to]

Brandon Harris wrote:
> As I said in the bug itself, by using red and green we are
> (accidentally) making a moral judgement about the revision. Humans are
> hard-wired to see red as bad and green as good (blood vs. forest/life).
> Revisions are, by their nature, amoral - so tagging one as "bad" and
> another as "good" goes against our purpose.

Well, in that case, the author of the revision is saying that "old" was
bad so it changed it to "new", which it considered good.

However, that's not how it is showing. The "old" background is yellow,
and the "new" one green. Red foreground is used *on both sides* to mark
changed text.


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