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LanguageSelector on strategy wiki

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gtisza at gmail

Sep 9, 2009, 6:28 AM

Post #1 of 22 (1864 views)
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LanguageSelector on strategy wiki

The LanguageSelector extension [1] can automatically set the interface
language based on browser settings, which is nowadays the norm for
every serious multilanguage web page. It is not used on WMF wikis,
because it would interfere with caching. The strategic planning wiki
[2] has, however, relatively low traffic, and probably much higher
logged-in to anon ratio than the rest of the sites. Any chance
LanguageSelector (or something equivalent, if it exists) could be used
there?

[1] http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:LanguageSelector
[2] http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

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brion at wikimedia

Sep 10, 2009, 8:48 AM

Post #2 of 22 (1806 views)
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Re: LanguageSelector on strategy wiki [In reply to]

On 9/9/09 6:28 AM, Tisza Gergő wrote:
> The LanguageSelector extension [1] can automatically set the interface
> language based on browser settings, which is nowadays the norm for
> every serious multilanguage web page. It is not used on WMF wikis,
> because it would interfere with caching. The strategic planning wiki
> [2] has, however, relatively low traffic, and probably much higher
> logged-in to anon ratio than the rest of the sites. Any chance
> LanguageSelector (or something equivalent, if it exists) could be used
> there?

Not sure; it ties in with the rest of our infrastructure so it's got the
same caching layers in front of it...

We've been hashing around the idea of allowing Accept-Language through
for eg Chinese variant selection, but the main problem with doing it
well is that we need some pre-processing at the cache level to keep the
cache locality relatively non-insane. :) The set of possible
Accept-Language headers is open-ended and huge, so we can't just add a
Vary: without greatly increasing the amount of cache space that'll be
used by that site.

That would be easier to do with Varnish (which has a much cleaner
plug-in system) than with Squid, but we're nowhere near a Varnish
deployment yet.

Mark, how hard would it be in theory to swap some settings around to
make one of our low-traffic sites take different caching
characteristics, like leaving just strategy.wikimedia.org with either a
Vary: Accept-Language or just having it not cache as much?

-- brion

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Sep 10, 2009, 9:04 AM

Post #3 of 22 (1807 views)
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Re: LanguageSelector on strategy wiki [In reply to]

> Mark, how hard would it be in theory to swap some settings around to
> make one of our low-traffic sites take different caching
> characteristics, like leaving just strategy.wikimedia.org with
> either a
> Vary: Accept-Language or just having it not cache as much?

thats not squid setting, one can just send proper cache-control headers.

on the other hand, can we please avoid having these kinds of "special
cases" all over - it is pain to do performance management with current
stuff already.

Cheers,
Domas

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brion at wikimedia

Sep 10, 2009, 1:41 PM

Post #4 of 22 (1804 views)
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Re: LanguageSelector on strategy wiki [In reply to]

On 9/10/09 9:04 AM, Domas Mituzas wrote:
>
>> Mark, how hard would it be in theory to swap some settings around to
>> make one of our low-traffic sites take different caching
>> characteristics, like leaving just strategy.wikimedia.org with
>> either a
>> Vary: Accept-Language or just having it not cache as much?
>
> thats not squid setting, one can just send proper cache-control headers.

As long as Squid isn't overwriting those headers, as we do for
Cache-Control. :)

> on the other hand, can we please avoid having these kinds of "special
> cases" all over - it is pain to do performance management with current
> stuff already.

Yeah, special cases suck. :(

-- brion

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midom.lists at gmail

Sep 10, 2009, 2:28 PM

Post #5 of 22 (1804 views)
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Re: LanguageSelector on strategy wiki [In reply to]

> As long as Squid isn't overwriting those headers, as we do for
> Cache-Control. :)

Squid is overriding at the edge all text content CC headers into:

Cache-Control: private, s-maxage=0, max-age=0, must-revalidate

MediaWiki Cache-Control is used internally though. This allows us full
control on lifetime of object with application only, no need to tweak
any squid stuff.

> Yeah, special cases suck. :(

Especially when they're just eye-candy for english-language site.

Domas

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lists at caseybrown

Sep 10, 2009, 2:40 PM

Post #6 of 22 (1802 views)
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Re: LanguageSelector on strategy wiki [In reply to]

On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 11:48 AM, Brion Vibber <brion [at] wikimedia> wrote:
> Mark, how hard would it be in theory to swap some settings around to
> make one of our low-traffic sites take different caching
> characteristics, like leaving just strategy.wikimedia.org with either a
> Vary: Accept-Language or just having it not cache as much?
>

Well, I *think* we requested this on foundationwiki a few years ago...
but we got turned down because of the squid-setup issue. (I can't
find a bug though.) If you get it on strategywiki, can we get it
there too? :-)

--
Casey Brown
Cbrown1023

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brion at wikimedia

Sep 10, 2009, 2:45 PM

Post #7 of 22 (1809 views)
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Re: LanguageSelector on strategy wiki [In reply to]

On 9/10/09 2:40 PM, Casey Brown wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 11:48 AM, Brion Vibber<brion [at] wikimedia> wrote:
>> Mark, how hard would it be in theory to swap some settings around to
>> make one of our low-traffic sites take different caching
>> characteristics, like leaving just strategy.wikimedia.org with either a
>> Vary: Accept-Language or just having it not cache as much?
>>
>
> Well, I *think* we requested this on foundationwiki a few years ago...
> but we got turned down because of the squid-setup issue. (I can't
> find a bug though.) If you get it on strategywiki, can we get it
> there too? :-)

We push foundationwiki pretty hard sometimes (such as at fundraiser
time)... we'd want to make sure we can actually handle it efficiently
before considering that.

-- brion

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removed at example

Sep 10, 2009, 2:47 PM

Post #8 of 22 (1801 views)
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Re: LanguageSelector on strategy wiki [In reply to]

On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 3:45 PM, Brion Vibber <brion [at] wikimedia> wrote:

> On 9/10/09 2:40 PM, Casey Brown wrote:
> > On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 11:48 AM, Brion Vibber<brion [at] wikimedia>
> wrote:
> >> Mark, how hard would it be in theory to swap some settings around to
> >> make one of our low-traffic sites take different caching
> >> characteristics, like leaving just strategy.wikimedia.org with either a
> >> Vary: Accept-Language or just having it not cache as much?
> >>
> >
> > Well, I *think* we requested this on foundationwiki a few years ago...
> > but we got turned down because of the squid-setup issue. (I can't
> > find a bug though.) If you get it on strategywiki, can we get it
> > there too? :-)
>
> We push foundationwiki pretty hard sometimes (such as at fundraiser
> time)... we'd want to make sure we can actually handle it efficiently
> before considering that.
>
> -- brion
>
>
apachebench?
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midom.lists at gmail

Sep 10, 2009, 3:22 PM

Post #9 of 22 (1811 views)
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Re: LanguageSelector on strategy wiki [In reply to]

>>
> apachebench?

How does apachebench help with efficiency? Please consider thinking
before posting on this mailing list!

Domas

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erik at wikimedia

Sep 10, 2009, 3:29 PM

Post #10 of 22 (1805 views)
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Re: LanguageSelector on strategy wiki [In reply to]

2009/9/9 Tisza Gergő <gtisza [at] gmail>:
> The LanguageSelector extension [1] can automatically set the interface
> language based on browser settings, which is nowadays the norm for
> every serious multilanguage web page. It is not used on WMF wikis,
> because it would interfere with caching.

I'm not convinced using the browser language settings for anything
other than suggestions is a good practice, as it doesn't necessarily
relate at all to language speaking ability of the user behind the
browser (think Internet cafes, shared computers, etc.). I notice that
it's possible to disable this behavior in the extension and just use
it as a UI language picker, which I agree would be useful if we can
make it work efficiently.

IMO an approach that replicates the behavior of separate MediaWiki
instances on a per-page basis, i.e. where the UI language reflects the
content language _of the page_, may be worth considering as well.
Then, if you navigate through an entry point in your language, and
peruse pages in your language, your UI will be in your language as
well, consistently.
--
Erik Möller
Deputy Director, Wikimedia Foundation

Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate

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roan.kattouw at gmail

Sep 10, 2009, 3:49 PM

Post #11 of 22 (1809 views)
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Re: LanguageSelector on strategy wiki [In reply to]

2009/9/10 Domas Mituzas <midom.lists [at] gmail>:
> Squid is overriding at the edge all text content CC headers into:
>
> Cache-Control: private, s-maxage=0, max-age=0, must-revalidate
>
> MediaWiki Cache-Control is used internally though. This allows us full
> control on lifetime of object with application only, no need to tweak
> any squid stuff.
>
Speaking of which, could we exempt api.php from this? It sets sane
Cache-Control: headers on its own, which should not be overwritten.
See also https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14402#c11 and
downwards.

Roan Kattouw (Catrope)

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smolensk at eunet

Sep 11, 2009, 12:02 PM

Post #12 of 22 (1768 views)
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Re: LanguageSelector on strategy wiki [In reply to]

Дана Friday 11 September 2009 00:29:54 Erik Moeller написа:
> 2009/9/9 Tisza Gergő <gtisza [at] gmail>:
> > The LanguageSelector extension [1] can automatically set the interface
> > language based on browser settings, which is nowadays the norm for
> > every serious multilanguage web page. It is not used on WMF wikis,
> > because it would interfere with caching.
>
> I'm not convinced using the browser language settings for anything
> other than suggestions is a good practice, as it doesn't necessarily
> relate at all to language speaking ability of the user behind the
> browser (think Internet cafes, shared computers, etc.). I notice that
> it's possible to disable this behavior in the extension and just use
> it as a UI language picker, which I agree would be useful if we can
> make it work efficiently.

I believe I can say as a professional that you are correct, albeit it is my
opinion that the browser settings can be usefully used as long as you leave
the user quick, simple and obvious ability to change the language on his own.

One thing that would be *extremely* useful regardless is the ability to keep a
language throughout the browsing session. This would mean that on, say,
Italian Wikipedia, you could have a link to Wikimedia Commons like
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Pagina_principale?uselang=it - and when
someone clicks on the featured picture *the interface would stay in Italian*
and then when someone clicks on Entra / Registrati *the interface still stays
in Italian*, and when someone actually registers the interface becomes
Italian in his preferences and so on. This would do a lot for acceptance of
Commons among the Wikipedias, and from there I see other useful ways it could
be used. If this is done, recognition of the browser language could be more
easily be experimented with.

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innocentkiller at gmail

Sep 11, 2009, 12:04 PM

Post #13 of 22 (1774 views)
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Re: LanguageSelector on strategy wiki [In reply to]

On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 3:02 PM, Nikola Smolenski <smolensk [at] eunet> wrote:
> Дана Friday 11 September 2009 00:29:54 Erik Moeller написа:
>> 2009/9/9 Tisza Gergő <gtisza [at] gmail>:
>> > The LanguageSelector extension [1] can automatically set the interface
>> > language based on browser settings, which is nowadays the norm for
>> > every serious multilanguage web page. It is not used on WMF wikis,
>> > because it would interfere with caching.
>>
>> I'm not convinced using the browser language settings for anything
>> other than suggestions is a good practice, as it doesn't necessarily
>> relate at all to language speaking ability of the user behind the
>> browser (think Internet cafes, shared computers, etc.). I notice that
>> it's possible to disable this behavior in the extension and just use
>> it as a UI language picker, which I agree would be useful if we can
>> make it work efficiently.
>
> I believe I can say as a professional that you are correct, albeit it is my
> opinion that the browser settings can be usefully used as long as you leave
> the user quick, simple and obvious ability to change the language on his own.
>
> One thing that would be *extremely* useful regardless is the ability to keep a
> language throughout the browsing session. This would mean that on, say,
> Italian Wikipedia, you could have a link to Wikimedia Commons like
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Pagina_principale?uselang=it - and when
> someone clicks on the featured picture *the interface would stay in Italian*
> and then when someone clicks on Entra / Registrati *the interface still stays
> in Italian*, and when someone actually registers the interface becomes
> Italian in his preferences and so on. This would do a lot for acceptance of
> Commons among the Wikipedias, and from there I see other useful ways it could
> be used. If this is done, recognition of the browser language could be more
> easily be experimented with.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l [at] lists
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

I looked at this exact issue before (there's a bug for it too). It should
be _very_ trivial to set uselang values into the session or a cookie.
Right now uselang= only works on the page you're on, which isn't
ideal.

-Chad

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removed at example

Sep 11, 2009, 12:21 PM

Post #14 of 22 (1766 views)
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Re: LanguageSelector on strategy wiki [In reply to]

On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 4:22 PM, Domas Mituzas <midom.lists [at] gmail>wrote:

> >>
> > apachebench?
>
> How does apachebench help with efficiency? Please consider thinking
> before posting on this mailing list!
>
> Domas
>
>
apachebench does help with efficiency. It is inefficient (not to mention
irresponsible) to wait to benchmark your code until you have a throng of
users actually relying on it. Apachebench will allow you to set the header
needed to trigger the language content shift in mediawiki while
simultaneously hammering the server with such requests. Please think before
being hypercritical of reasonable suggestions.
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Sep 11, 2009, 12:32 PM

Post #15 of 22 (1767 views)
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Re: LanguageSelector on strategy wiki [In reply to]

Hello!

> apachebench does help with efficiency. It is inefficient (not to
> mention
> irresponsible) to wait to benchmark your code until you have a
> throng of
> users actually relying on it.

It isn't matter of benchmarking, it is matter of relative resource
costs, compared with other projects, and no way you'd get the answer
with benchmarking tool.
Do note, we have a cluster which serves thousands of other requests,
so we may have capacity to serve various exceptions, but we may as
well want to spend that capacity on more efficient things, like, um,
wikis without eyecandies (interface language changes for english
language wikis? way to go!)

> Apachebench will allow you to set the header
> needed to trigger the language content shift in mediawiki while
> simultaneously hammering the server with such requests.

We already know the costs, we do profile. We have way more detailed
costs than anything 'ab' can provide.
We have way more capacity in our cluster than a single-threaded
benchmark tool can load properly.

Domas

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Simetrical+wikilist at gmail

Sep 11, 2009, 12:36 PM

Post #16 of 22 (1768 views)
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Re: LanguageSelector on strategy wiki [In reply to]

On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 3:21 PM, Brian <Brian.Mingus [at] colorado> wrote:
> apachebench does help with efficiency. It is inefficient (not to mention
> irresponsible) to wait to benchmark your code until you have a throng of
> users actually relying on it. Apachebench will allow you to set the header
> needed to trigger the language content shift in mediawiki while
> simultaneously hammering the server with such requests. Please think before
> being hypercritical of reasonable suggestions.

Number one: suggesting "use apachebench" is not really helpful,
because anyone who's even the slightest bit competent knows about it.
Although I'm sure you were only trying to be helpful, giving very
basic suggestions can be taken to imply that you have a very low
opinion of your audience's technical knowledge, and tends to offend
people.

Number two: no, it's not inefficient to profile instead of benchmark.
Benchmarking is artificial and will not trigger real usage patterns.
It's inefficient to waste effort tracking down and fixing performance
problems that might not arise in the real world, and at the same time
a real-life usage pattern could very easily trigger something your
benchmarking tool missed. Real-time profiling mostly allows serious
performance problems to be identified and fixed within minutes, so
it's not irresponsible at all to use it.

Number three: individuals' histories of contributions, both to
discussion and to actual code, are normally taken into account by
people responding to them.

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Sep 11, 2009, 12:36 PM

Post #17 of 22 (1770 views)
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Re: LanguageSelector on strategy wiki [In reply to]

On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 1:32 PM, Domas Mituzas <midom.lists [at] gmail>wrote:

> Hello!
>
> > apachebench does help with efficiency. It is inefficient (not to
> > mention
> > irresponsible) to wait to benchmark your code until you have a
> > throng of
> > users actually relying on it.
>
> It isn't matter of benchmarking, it is matter of relative resource
> costs, compared with other projects, and no way you'd get the answer
> with benchmarking tool.
> Do note, we have a cluster which serves thousands of other requests,
> so we may have capacity to serve various exceptions, but we may as
> well want to spend that capacity on more efficient things, like, um,
> wikis without eyecandies (interface language changes for english
> language wikis? way to go!)
>
> > Apachebench will allow you to set the header
> > needed to trigger the language content shift in mediawiki while
> > simultaneously hammering the server with such requests.
>
> We already know the costs, we do profile. We have way more detailed
> costs than anything 'ab' can provide.
> We have way more capacity in our cluster than a single-threaded
> benchmark tool can load properly.
>
> Domas
>
>
If you know the costs so well, why is there a need to see if the foundation
wiki buckles under the load during fundraiser time?

I believe you have grossly misrepresented the capabilities of apachebench,
and per your message it appears that you've never used it.
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Sep 11, 2009, 12:42 PM

Post #18 of 22 (1768 views)
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Re: LanguageSelector on strategy wiki [In reply to]

On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 1:36 PM, Aryeh Gregor
<Simetrical+wikilist [at] gmail<Simetrical%2Bwikilist [at] gmail>
> wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 3:21 PM, Brian <Brian.Mingus [at] colorado> wrote:
> > apachebench does help with efficiency. It is inefficient (not to mention
> > irresponsible) to wait to benchmark your code until you have a throng of
> > users actually relying on it. Apachebench will allow you to set the
> header
> > needed to trigger the language content shift in mediawiki while
> > simultaneously hammering the server with such requests. Please think
> before
> > being hypercritical of reasonable suggestions.
>
> Number one: suggesting "use apachebench" is not really helpful,
> because anyone who's even the slightest bit competent knows about it.
> Although I'm sure you were only trying to be helpful, giving very
> basic suggestions can be taken to imply that you have a very low
> opinion of your audience's technical knowledge, and tends to offend
> people.
>

Quite the contrary, if I were to engage in a long diatribe about the
benefits of apachebench it could be taken to mean I have a very low opinion
of my audience's technical knowledge. There are lots of technologies out
there, sometimes folks just need a pointer.

> Number two: no, it's not inefficient to profile instead of benchmark.
> Benchmarking is artificial and will not trigger real usage patterns.
> It's inefficient to waste effort tracking down and fixing performance
> problems that might not arise in the real world, and at the same time
> a real-life usage pattern could very easily trigger something your
> benchmarking tool missed. Real-time profiling mostly allows serious
> performance problems to be identified and fixed within minutes, so
> it's not irresponsible at all to use it.
>

Benchmarking is not artificial by necessity - only by a lack of proper
technique. If you can't get accurate profiling data by using benchmarks then
you don't know how to benchmark.

> Number three: individuals' histories of contributions, both to
> discussion and to actual code, are normally taken into account by
> people responding to them.
>

elitism++. I suppose I should send you my resume before I send my next
message to the list.
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Sep 11, 2009, 12:43 PM

Post #19 of 22 (1768 views)
Permalink

Re: LanguageSelector on strategy wiki [In reply to]

Hi!

> If you know the costs so well, why is there a need to see if the
> foundation
> wiki buckles under the load during fundraiser time?

does it? is it really foundation wiki, that is on our shared cluster,
or is that separate donation site, which is entirely separate from the
system? If you talk about latter, I don't care, I was involved only to
fix embarrassing mistakes, and I don't know those costs. I do know
what runs on our main cluster, though :)

> I believe you have grossly misrepresented the capabilities of
> apachebench,
> and per your message it appears that you've never used it.

actually, if you checked our SAL, you'd find these entries:

� 19:14 domas: xcache was both slower and less stable (got corrupted
cache within seconds, can we blame that on -O3? :))
� 18:56 domas: (xcache is configured to have ttl of 600 seconds on
all php objects.. ;-)
� 18:55 domas: installed php5-xcache on srv250 (manual comment in
apc.ini though...)

In here, between 18:56 and 19:14 I've been doing quite a bit of
'apachebench' ;-) Just so that you knew.

Cheers,
Domas
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Sep 11, 2009, 12:47 PM

Post #20 of 22 (1766 views)
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Re: LanguageSelector on strategy wiki [In reply to]

On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 3:42 PM, Brian <Brian.Mingus [at] colorado> wrote:
> elitism++. I suppose I should send you my resume before I send my next
> message to the list.

Nobody cares about a piece of paper. We care about what we've
personally seen you contribute to our community. That's all that
counts here.

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removed at example

Sep 11, 2009, 12:59 PM

Post #21 of 22 (1770 views)
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Re: LanguageSelector on strategy wiki [In reply to]

On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 1:47 PM, Aryeh Gregor
<Simetrical+wikilist [at] gmail<Simetrical%2Bwikilist [at] gmail>
> wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 3:42 PM, Brian <Brian.Mingus [at] colorado> wrote:
> > elitism++. I suppose I should send you my resume before I send my next
> > message to the list.
>
> Nobody cares about a piece of paper. We care about what we've
> personally seen you contribute to our community. That's all that
> counts here.
>

You're free to have whatever cognitive biases you like, but its unfortunate
that you judge people based on your flawed assumption that you have complete
knowledge of folks' contribution histories. (Also unfortunate that you are
so quick to make an ad hominem). I've been around longer than you think -
why, I remember when Tim was still a wee php hacker learning the ropes.
Probably I've been around longer than you, and most of the people who hack
on mediawiki. I've been contributing to the projects since the early days in
my own ways, which includes core research on quality and creating
experimental technologies. I personally find contributing to mediawiki core
dull, I like to do things which I perceive to be more interesting, and when
I have a result, I present it at Wikimania.

Besides a bunch of code commits, how have you contributed to the projects?
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innocentkiller at gmail

Sep 11, 2009, 1:09 PM

Post #22 of 22 (1773 views)
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Re: LanguageSelector on strategy wiki [In reply to]

On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 3:59 PM, Brian <Brian.Mingus [at] colorado> wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 1:47 PM, Aryeh Gregor
> <Simetrical+wikilist [at] gmail<Simetrical%2Bwikilist [at] gmail>
>> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 3:42 PM, Brian <Brian.Mingus [at] colorado> wrote:
>> > elitism++. I suppose I should send you my resume before I send my next
>> > message to the list.
>>
>> Nobody cares about a piece of paper. We care about what we've
>> personally seen you contribute to our community. That's all that
>> counts here.
>>
>
> You're free to have whatever cognitive biases you like, but its unfortunate
> that you judge people based on your flawed assumption that you have complete
> knowledge of folks' contribution histories. (Also unfortunate that you are
> so quick to make an ad hominem). I've been around longer than you think -
> why, I remember when Tim was still a wee php hacker learning the ropes.
> Probably I've been around longer than you, and most of the people who hack
> on mediawiki. I've been contributing to the projects since the early days in
> my own ways, which includes core research on quality and creating
> experimental technologies. I personally find contributing to mediawiki core
> dull, I like to do things which I perceive to be more interesting, and when
> I have a result, I present it at Wikimania.
>
> Besides a bunch of code commits, how have you contributed to the projects?
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>

Please take this off-list. Has 0 relevance to the original topic.

-Chad

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