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mizusumashi at coda

Aug 29, 2009, 5:42 AM

Post #1 of 39 (1837 views)
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how to chang {{SITENAME}}

Hello everyone.

I want to propose changing {{SITENAME}} in jawp. But I don't know how
to, and who can do it. Editing some$B!!(Bpages, requesting to server
administrators or anything... Please teach me what I have to.

Thank you.

----
[[w:ja:User:mizusumashi]]

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vasilvv at gmail

Aug 29, 2009, 5:54 AM

Post #2 of 39 (1792 views)
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Re: how to chang {{SITENAME}} [In reply to]

mizusumashi wrote:
> Hello everyone.
>
> I want to propose changing {{SITENAME}} in jawp. But I don't know how
> to, and who can do it. Editing some$B!!(Bpages, requesting to server
> administrators or anything... Please teach me what I have to.
>
> Thank you.
>
> ----
> [[w:ja:User:mizusumashi]]
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l [at] lists
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>

You need to gain a local consensus and then file a bug in bugzilla [1].

[1] https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/

--vvv

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sterkebak at gmail

Aug 29, 2009, 8:32 AM

Post #3 of 39 (1782 views)
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Re: how to chang {{SITENAME}} [In reply to]

How do you want it changed?

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mizusumashi at coda

Aug 29, 2009, 9:47 AM

Post #4 of 39 (1780 views)
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Re: how to chang {{SITENAME}} [In reply to]

Victor Vasiliev wrote:
> You need to gain a local consensus and then file a bug in bugzilla [1].
>
> [1] https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/

I understand. I'll try to make our local consensus.
Thank you very much, Victor.

Huib Laurens wrote:
> How do you want it changed?

I think that {{SITENAME}} is translated in almost projects. But in jawp
it is not translated. It makes jawp a little strange.

For example, [[MediaWiki:Aboutsite]] have the default message "About
{{SITENAME}}". But we have overwritten it by "$B%&%#%-%Z%G%#%"$K$D$$$F(B"
$B!J(Btranslated word from "about Wikipedia").

Jawp community needs to talk about this and it is better to select one
word, the untranslated "Wikipedia" or the translated "$B%&%#%-%Z%G%#%"(B", I
think.

Sorry for my poor English. Thank you.

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midom.lists at gmail

Aug 31, 2009, 1:57 AM

Post #5 of 39 (1774 views)
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Re: how to chang {{SITENAME}} [In reply to]

Hello,
> For example, [[MediaWiki:Aboutsite]] have the default message "About
> {{SITENAME}}". But we have overwritten it by "$B%&%#%-%Z%G%#(B
> $B%"$K$D$$$F(B"
> $B!J(Btranslated word from "about Wikipedia").

Performance-wise it is even better, if all main messages which have
{{SITENAME}} get replacements with literals. Otherwise you're adding
up 5ms of page load time to each page. :)

Domas

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jayvdb at gmail

Aug 31, 2009, 2:37 AM

Post #6 of 39 (1773 views)
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Re: how to chang {{SITENAME}} [In reply to]

2009/8/31 Domas Mituzas <midom.lists [at] gmail>:
> Hello,
>> For example, [[MediaWiki:Aboutsite]] have the default message "About
>> {{SITENAME}}". But we have overwritten it by "$B%&%#%-%Z%G%#(B
>> $B%"$K$D$$$F(B"
>> $B!J(Btranslated word from "about Wikipedia").
>
> Performance-wise it is even better, if all main messages which have
> {{SITENAME}} get replacements with literals. Otherwise you're adding
> up 5ms of page load time to each page. :)

It would be good if that was documented ;-P

http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Interface/Aboutsite

I asked about this a while ago.

http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project:Support_desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/007#tuning_MediaWiki:Aboutsite

--
John Vandenberg

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midom.lists at gmail

Aug 31, 2009, 3:56 AM

Post #7 of 39 (1774 views)
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Re: how to chang {{SITENAME}} [In reply to]

> I asked about this a while ago.
> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project:Support_desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/007#tuning_MediaWiki
> :Aboutsite

asking on-wiki doesn't really makes much sense, as I don't read it ;-p

Anyway, we have to ensure, that most of wikis (at least top20 ones)
have got ridden of curly braces and any other expensive parser stuff
in these messages, as that costs them up to 10 milliseconds per
pageview (if anyone writes a bot to do this automatically, I'd gladly
run it with my global super duper privileges :)) :

aboutpage
aboutsite
accesskey-ca-delete
accesskey-ca-edit
accesskey-ca-history
accesskey-ca-move
accesskey-ca-nstab-main
accesskey-ca-talk
accesskey-ca-unprotect
accesskey-ca-view
accesskey-ca-watch
accesskey-n-aboutsite
accesskey-n-contact
accesskey-n-contents
accesskey-n-currentevents
accesskey-n-featuredcontent
accesskey-n-help
accesskey-n-mainpage-description
accesskey-n-portal
accesskey-n-randompage
accesskey-n-recentchanges
accesskey-n-sitesupport
accesskey-p-logo
accesskey-pt-acaibeta
accesskey-pt-betafeedback
accesskey-pt-logout
accesskey-pt-mycontris
accesskey-pt-mytalk
accesskey-pt-preferences
accesskey-pt-userpage
accesskey-pt-watchlist
accesskey-search
accesskey-search-fulltext
accesskey-search-go
accesskey-t-permalink
accesskey-t-print
accesskey-t-recentchangeslinked
accesskey-t-specialpages
accesskey-t-upload
accesskey-t-whatlinkshere
actions
cite_article_link
coll-add_page_tooltip
coll-create_a_book
coll-help_collections_tooltip
coll-helppage
coll-printable_version_pdf
contact-url
currentevents-url
delete
disclaimerpage
disclaimers
edit
helppage
history_short
interaction
jumpto
jumptonavigation
jumptosearch
lastmodifiedat
mainpage
move
mycontris
mypreferences
mytalk
mywatchlist
namespaces
navigation
nstab-main
opensearch-desc
optin-feedback
optin-leave
otherlanguages
pagetitle
pagetitle-view-mainpage
permalink
personaltools
portal-url
printableversion
privacy
privacypage
randompage-url
recentchanges-url
recentchangeslinked-toolbox
retrievedfrom
search
search-mwsuggest-disabled
search-mwsuggest-enabled
searcharticle
searchbutton
sidebar
site-atom-feed
site-rss-feed
sitenotice
sitesupport-url
specialpages
tagline
talk
toolbox
tooltip-ca-delete
tooltip-ca-edit
tooltip-ca-history
tooltip-ca-move
tooltip-ca-nstab-main
tooltip-ca-talk
tooltip-ca-unprotect
tooltip-ca-view
tooltip-ca-watch
tooltip-n-aboutsite
tooltip-n-contact
tooltip-n-contents
tooltip-n-currentevents
tooltip-n-featuredcontent
tooltip-n-help
tooltip-n-mainpage-description
tooltip-n-portal
tooltip-n-randompage
tooltip-n-recentchanges
tooltip-n-sitesupport
tooltip-p-coll-create_a_book
tooltip-p-interaction
tooltip-p-logo
tooltip-p-navigation
tooltip-pt-acaibeta
tooltip-pt-betafeedback
tooltip-pt-logout
tooltip-pt-mycontris
tooltip-pt-mytalk
tooltip-pt-preferences
tooltip-pt-userpage
tooltip-pt-watchlist
tooltip-search
tooltip-search-fulltext
tooltip-search-go
tooltip-t-permalink
tooltip-t-print
tooltip-t-recentchangeslinked
tooltip-t-specialpages
tooltip-t-upload
tooltip-t-whatlinkshere
unprotect
unwatch
unwatching
upload
userlogout
vector-action-delete
vector-action-move
vector-action-unprotect
vector-namespace-main
vector-namespace-talk
vector-view-edit
vector-view-history
vector-view-view
views
watch
watching
whatlinkshere
wikimedia-copyright

Domas

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gerard.meijssen at gmail

Aug 31, 2009, 4:10 AM

Post #8 of 39 (1775 views)
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Re: how to chang {{SITENAME}} [In reply to]

Hoi,
Changing the messages in this way may be good from a performance perspective
it really hurts the usability of our messages. Messages are localised at
translatewiki.net and this is where we do require these messages. When
messages are to have hardcoded strings as you propose you defeat the
objectives of using a set of messages that are universally usable.

In my opinion your proposal has really nasty side effects so my question is
how you want to ensure that we are not working cross purposes.
Thanks,
GerardM

2009/8/31 Domas Mituzas <midom.lists [at] gmail>

>
> > I asked about this a while ago.
> >
> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project:Support_desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/007#tuning_MediaWiki
> > :Aboutsite
>
> asking on-wiki doesn't really makes much sense, as I don't read it ;-p
>
> Anyway, we have to ensure, that most of wikis (at least top20 ones)
> have got ridden of curly braces and any other expensive parser stuff
> in these messages, as that costs them up to 10 milliseconds per
> pageview (if anyone writes a bot to do this automatically, I'd gladly
> run it with my global super duper privileges :)) :
>
> aboutpage
> aboutsite
> accesskey-ca-delete
> accesskey-ca-edit
> accesskey-ca-history
> accesskey-ca-move
> accesskey-ca-nstab-main
> accesskey-ca-talk
> accesskey-ca-unprotect
> accesskey-ca-view
> accesskey-ca-watch
> accesskey-n-aboutsite
> accesskey-n-contact
> accesskey-n-contents
> accesskey-n-currentevents
> accesskey-n-featuredcontent
> accesskey-n-help
> accesskey-n-mainpage-description
> accesskey-n-portal
> accesskey-n-randompage
> accesskey-n-recentchanges
> accesskey-n-sitesupport
> accesskey-p-logo
> accesskey-pt-acaibeta
> accesskey-pt-betafeedback
> accesskey-pt-logout
> accesskey-pt-mycontris
> accesskey-pt-mytalk
> accesskey-pt-preferences
> accesskey-pt-userpage
> accesskey-pt-watchlist
> accesskey-search
> accesskey-search-fulltext
> accesskey-search-go
> accesskey-t-permalink
> accesskey-t-print
> accesskey-t-recentchangeslinked
> accesskey-t-specialpages
> accesskey-t-upload
> accesskey-t-whatlinkshere
> actions
> cite_article_link
> coll-add_page_tooltip
> coll-create_a_book
> coll-help_collections_tooltip
> coll-helppage
> coll-printable_version_pdf
> contact-url
> currentevents-url
> delete
> disclaimerpage
> disclaimers
> edit
> helppage
> history_short
> interaction
> jumpto
> jumptonavigation
> jumptosearch
> lastmodifiedat
> mainpage
> move
> mycontris
> mypreferences
> mytalk
> mywatchlist
> namespaces
> navigation
> nstab-main
> opensearch-desc
> optin-feedback
> optin-leave
> otherlanguages
> pagetitle
> pagetitle-view-mainpage
> permalink
> personaltools
> portal-url
> printableversion
> privacy
> privacypage
> randompage-url
> recentchanges-url
> recentchangeslinked-toolbox
> retrievedfrom
> search
> search-mwsuggest-disabled
> search-mwsuggest-enabled
> searcharticle
> searchbutton
> sidebar
> site-atom-feed
> site-rss-feed
> sitenotice
> sitesupport-url
> specialpages
> tagline
> talk
> toolbox
> tooltip-ca-delete
> tooltip-ca-edit
> tooltip-ca-history
> tooltip-ca-move
> tooltip-ca-nstab-main
> tooltip-ca-talk
> tooltip-ca-unprotect
> tooltip-ca-view
> tooltip-ca-watch
> tooltip-n-aboutsite
> tooltip-n-contact
> tooltip-n-contents
> tooltip-n-currentevents
> tooltip-n-featuredcontent
> tooltip-n-help
> tooltip-n-mainpage-description
> tooltip-n-portal
> tooltip-n-randompage
> tooltip-n-recentchanges
> tooltip-n-sitesupport
> tooltip-p-coll-create_a_book
> tooltip-p-interaction
> tooltip-p-logo
> tooltip-p-navigation
> tooltip-pt-acaibeta
> tooltip-pt-betafeedback
> tooltip-pt-logout
> tooltip-pt-mycontris
> tooltip-pt-mytalk
> tooltip-pt-preferences
> tooltip-pt-userpage
> tooltip-pt-watchlist
> tooltip-search
> tooltip-search-fulltext
> tooltip-search-go
> tooltip-t-permalink
> tooltip-t-print
> tooltip-t-recentchangeslinked
> tooltip-t-specialpages
> tooltip-t-upload
> tooltip-t-whatlinkshere
> unprotect
> unwatch
> unwatching
> upload
> userlogout
> vector-action-delete
> vector-action-move
> vector-action-unprotect
> vector-namespace-main
> vector-namespace-talk
> vector-view-edit
> vector-view-history
> vector-view-view
> views
> watch
> watching
> whatlinkshere
> wikimedia-copyright
>
>
> Domas
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
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innocentkiller at gmail

Aug 31, 2009, 4:20 AM

Post #9 of 39 (1775 views)
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Re: how to chang {{SITENAME}} [In reply to]

On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 7:10 AM, Gerard
Meijssen<gerard.meijssen [at] gmail> wrote:
> Hoi,
> Changing the messages in this way may be good from a performance perspective
> it really hurts the usability of our messages. Messages are localised at
> translatewiki.net and this is where we do require these messages. When
> messages are to have hardcoded strings as you propose you defeat the
> objectives of using a set of messages that are universally usable.
>
> In my opinion your proposal has really nasty side effects so my question is
> how you want to ensure that we are not working cross purposes.
> Thanks,
> GerardM
>

Yes, but once the wiki has the base message and they've customized it, there's
certainly an incentive to using the string instead of the magic word.

-Chad

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midom.lists at gmail

Aug 31, 2009, 4:35 AM

Post #10 of 39 (1773 views)
Permalink

Re: how to chang {{SITENAME}} [In reply to]

Hi!

> Changing the messages in this way may be good from a performance
> perspective
> it really hurts the usability of our messages. Messages are
> localised at
> translatewiki.net and this is where we do require these messages. When
> messages are to have hardcoded strings as you propose you defeat the
> objectives of using a set of messages that are universally usable.

I'm suggesting doing that just on our wikis. Mediawiki users can have
whatever expensive logic, I don't care that much :-)

> In my opinion your proposal has really nasty side effects so my
> question is
> how you want to ensure that we are not working cross purposes.

Using {{ on common messages is no-go on major wikimedia wikis. Again,
people can do whatever transformations they want at any level, except
final mediawiki message logic that is on our site.

BR,
Domas

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gerard.meijssen at gmail

Aug 31, 2009, 5:27 AM

Post #11 of 39 (1784 views)
Permalink

Re: how to chang {{SITENAME}} [In reply to]

Hoi,
There are two opposing objectives at play. Performance is one and quality
localisation for MediaWiki in all our projects is the second. Just stating
that performance trumps our localisation is also very much a nono.

These are consequences and they have to be considered. Just breaking the way
our localisation works in this way is at least equally unacceptable as poor
performance is.
Thanks,
GerardM

2009/8/31 Domas Mituzas <midom.lists [at] gmail>

> Hi!
>
> > Changing the messages in this way may be good from a performance
> > perspective
> > it really hurts the usability of our messages. Messages are
> > localised at
> > translatewiki.net and this is where we do require these messages. When
> > messages are to have hardcoded strings as you propose you defeat the
> > objectives of using a set of messages that are universally usable.
>
> I'm suggesting doing that just on our wikis. Mediawiki users can have
> whatever expensive logic, I don't care that much :-)
>
> > In my opinion your proposal has really nasty side effects so my
> > question is
> > how you want to ensure that we are not working cross purposes.
>
> Using {{ on common messages is no-go on major wikimedia wikis. Again,
> people can do whatever transformations they want at any level, except
> final mediawiki message logic that is on our site.
>
> BR,
> Domas
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l [at] lists
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
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Simetrical+wikilist at gmail

Aug 31, 2009, 7:01 AM

Post #12 of 39 (1772 views)
Permalink

Re: how to chang {{SITENAME}} [In reply to]

On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 8:27 AM, Gerard
Meijssen<gerard.meijssen [at] gmail> wrote:
> There are two opposing objectives at play. Performance is one and quality
> localisation for MediaWiki in all our projects is the second. Just stating
> that performance trumps our localisation is also very much a nono.
>
> These are consequences and they have to be considered. Just breaking the way
> our localisation works in this way is at least equally unacceptable as poor
> performance is.

Slightly more burdensome localization makes the localizers' lives a
bit more difficult. Running out of CPU means the site will crash.
So, no, I don't think so. Of course, it would be nice if someone came
up with a solution that everyone was happy with, but until then,
performance *is* more important than localization convenience.

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gerard.meijssen at gmail

Aug 31, 2009, 7:17 AM

Post #13 of 39 (1784 views)
Permalink

Re: how to chang {{SITENAME}} [In reply to]

Hoi,
Thank you for the hyperbole.. Your representation insinuates that our
systems will crash unless this change is implemented. Fact is that currently
our messages are parsed.
Thanks,
GerardM

2009/8/31 Aryeh Gregor
<Simetrical+wikilist [at] gmail<Simetrical%2Bwikilist [at] gmail>
>

> On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 8:27 AM, Gerard
> Meijssen<gerard.meijssen [at] gmail> wrote:
> > There are two opposing objectives at play. Performance is one and quality
> > localisation for MediaWiki in all our projects is the second. Just
> stating
> > that performance trumps our localisation is also very much a nono.
> >
> > These are consequences and they have to be considered. Just breaking the
> way
> > our localisation works in this way is at least equally unacceptable as
> poor
> > performance is.
>
> Slightly more burdensome localization makes the localizers' lives a
> bit more difficult. Running out of CPU means the site will crash.
> So, no, I don't think so. Of course, it would be nice if someone came
> up with a solution that everyone was happy with, but until then,
> performance *is* more important than localization convenience.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l [at] lists
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
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innocentkiller at gmail

Aug 31, 2009, 7:21 AM

Post #14 of 39 (1772 views)
Permalink

Re: how to chang {{SITENAME}} [In reply to]

On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 10:17 AM, Gerard
Meijssen<gerard.meijssen [at] gmail> wrote:
> Hoi,
> Thank you for the hyperbole.. Your representation insinuates that our
> systems will crash unless this change is implemented. Fact is that currently
> our messages are parsed.
> Thanks,
> GerardM
>
> 2009/8/31 Aryeh Gregor
> <Simetrical+wikilist [at] gmail<Simetrical%2Bwikilist [at] gmail>
>>
>
>> On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 8:27 AM, Gerard
>> Meijssen<gerard.meijssen [at] gmail> wrote:
>> > There are two opposing objectives at play. Performance is one and quality
>> > localisation for MediaWiki in all our projects is the second. Just
>> stating
>> > that performance trumps our localisation is also very much a nono.
>> >
>> > These are consequences and they have to be considered. Just breaking the
>> way
>> > our localisation works in this way is at least equally unacceptable as
>> poor
>> > performance is.
>>
>> Slightly more burdensome localization makes the localizers' lives a
>> bit more difficult. Running out of CPU means the site will crash.
>> So, no, I don't think so. Of course, it would be nice if someone came
>> up with a solution that everyone was happy with, but until then,
>> performance *is* more important than localization convenience.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>> Wikitech-l [at] lists
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l [at] lists
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>

In the WMF environment, I know a lot of instances of {{SITENAME}}
have been changed to strings on a lot of the larger wikis. For the WMF,
this is a good performance gain with little drawback to the users. Their
sitename isn't changing anytime soon, so it doesn't really matter to
use {{SITENAME}} or not.

For individual wikis elsewhere, {{SITENAME}} may be of greater benefit.
This doesn't hold true for the WMF though, and that's what Domas is
talking about.

-Chad

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s.mazeland at xs4all

Aug 31, 2009, 7:25 AM

Post #15 of 39 (1772 views)
Permalink

Re: how to chang {{SITENAME}} [In reply to]

No need to have a heated debate here, I think.

I have known about this issue for high traffic MediaWiki wikis for at least
a year and a half - Domas actually made me aware of it, and based on that I
made a few changes in the Dutch language Wikipedia and notified some admins
of other larger Wikipedias about the resource use advantages it could have
for the WMF. Changing {{SITENAME}} in a few messages of the content language
to whatever that sitename is supposed to be replaced for fixes the issue.

That's it, nothing more.

There is also no need to change something in the standard localisation.
{{SITENAME}} works fine as it is where it is being used, although not using
it if possible is a better alternative, as {{SITENAME}} usage poses problems
in most languages that should have different grammar forms for SITENAME. We
(i18n dudes - still looking for girls in that area) have in the past
actively reduced SITENAME usage in messages, although nothing rigid was
done, and a closer look at it might not be a bad idea.

Cheers!

Siebrand

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agarrett at wikimedia

Aug 31, 2009, 8:00 AM

Post #16 of 39 (1773 views)
Permalink

Re: how to chang {{SITENAME}} [In reply to]

On 31/08/2009, at 9:27 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:

> Hoi,
> There are two opposing objectives at play. Performance is one and
> quality
> localisation for MediaWiki in all our projects is the second. Just
> stating
> that performance trumps our localisation is also very much a nono.
>
> These are consequences and they have to be considered. Just breaking
> the way
> our localisation works in this way is at least equally unacceptable
> as poor
> performance is.

You haven't explained exactly what impact this will have on
localisation. Perhaps providing concrete disadvantages instead of
vague topic areas will make your argument more convincing.

--
Andrew Garrett
agarrett [at] wikimedia
http://werdn.us/

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Platonides at gmail

Aug 31, 2009, 8:01 AM

Post #17 of 39 (1773 views)
Permalink

Re: how to chang {{SITENAME}} [In reply to]

Domas Mituzas wrote:
> Anyway, we have to ensure, that most of wikis (at least top20 ones)
> have got ridden of curly braces and any other expensive parser stuff
> in these messages, as that costs them up to 10 milliseconds per
> pageview (if anyone writes a bot to do this automatically, I'd gladly
> run it with my global super duper privileges :)) :

1) Copy that list
2) Prepend MediaWiki: namespace
3) Post to Special:Export
4) Automate it:

sed s/wiki$/wikipedia/ all.dblist > all.domains
sed -i s/metawikipedia/metawikimedia/ all.domains
sed -i s/commonswikipedia/commonswikimedia/ all.domains
sed -i s/wik/.wik/ all.domains
sed -i s/.wikimania$[0-9]\+$wikipedia/wikimania\1.wikimedia/ all.domains
sed -i s/.wikimaniateamwikipedia/wikimaniateam.wikimedia/ all.domains
sed -i s/foundation.wikipedia/wikimediafoundation/ all.domains
sed -i
"s/$strategy\|usability\|collab\|advisory\|grants\|board\|incubator\|internal\|chair\|quality\|exec\|wikimaniateam\|office\|.*com$.wikipedia/\1.wikimedia/"
all.domains
sed -i s/_/-/g all.domains
sed -i s/arbcom-/arbcom./ all.domains
sed -i s/-labs/.labs/ all.domains
sed -i s/wg-en.wikipedia/wg.en.wikipedia/ all.domains
sed -i s/media.wikiwikipedia/www.mediawiki/ all.domains

while read domain; do
wget http://$domain.org/wiki/Special:Export --post-file=postdata.txt -O
$domain.txt
done < all.domains

6) Profit!!

Wikis using some kind of templating
grep -l "{{" *|wc -l
255

Total usage:
grep "{{" *|wc -l
732

Using parserfunctions
grep "{{#" *|wc -l
28 (across 22 wikis: als.wikipedia.org bar.wikipedia.org
ca.wikipedia.org commons.wikimedia.org en.labs.wikimedia.org
en.wikibooks.org fa.wikipedia.org fa.wikiquote.org gl.wikipedia.org
it.wikinews.org it.wikiquote.org meta.wikimedia.org ru.wikipedia.org
simple.wikipedia.org sv.wikibooks.org tr.wikibooks.org tr.wikipedia.org
tr.wikisource.org zh.wikibooks.org zh.wikipedia.org zh.wikiquote.org
zh.wikisource.org)

grep "{{PAGENAME}}" *|wc -l
18

Used for namespace name:
grep "{{ns:" *|wc -l
226

grep "{{localurl:" *|wc -l
5

grep "{{grammar:" *|wc -l
8

grep "{{plural:" *|wc -l
0

grep "<nowiki" *|wc -l
0

Wikis with using all default messages:
grep -L "<revision>" * | wc -l
273

Private wikis not read:
grep "<html" *|wc -l
23

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gerard.meijssen at gmail

Aug 31, 2009, 8:30 AM

Post #18 of 39 (1775 views)
Permalink

Re: how to chang {{SITENAME}} [In reply to]

Hoi,
Centralised localisation works when the resulting localised messages are
usable and useful in all environments. More exceptions to this rule make it
seem as if central localisation is not a good idea. There is already one
acknowledged exception to the rule; messages that inform about the policies
of a local wiki, there is now a second category and they are messages that
have parameters like the system name.

While I appreciate Domas' search for more performance, I am equally of the
opinion that there are other factors to consider. Siebrand wrote that HE is
aware of this. This is nice but we support other projects that run MediaWiki
and our support should allow for THEY are aware of this. There is also a
constant flow of new localised messages and these can include the list of
messages that has been shown earlier in this thread. I can imagine that we
have some functionality that is part of the update.php that updates these
values in the plain vanilla messages.

What I am looking for is proper support. The least is proper documentation
and it can be expanded to a procedure that allows other wikis to benefit
from the knowledge we have gained. My overriding concern is that our
language support is not sacrificed at the cost of a few cycles. Even when
there are a lot of them.
Thanks,
GerardM

2009/8/31 Andrew Garrett <agarrett [at] wikimedia>

>
> On 31/08/2009, at 9:27 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>
> > Hoi,
> > There are two opposing objectives at play. Performance is one and
> > quality
> > localisation for MediaWiki in all our projects is the second. Just
> > stating
> > that performance trumps our localisation is also very much a nono.
> >
> > These are consequences and they have to be considered. Just breaking
> > the way
> > our localisation works in this way is at least equally unacceptable
> > as poor
> > performance is.
>
> You haven't explained exactly what impact this will have on
> localisation. Perhaps providing concrete disadvantages instead of
> vague topic areas will make your argument more convincing.
>
> --
> Andrew Garrett
> agarrett [at] wikimedia
> http://werdn.us/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l [at] lists
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
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rarohde at gmail

Aug 31, 2009, 8:32 AM

Post #19 of 39 (1772 views)
Permalink

Re: how to chang {{SITENAME}} [In reply to]

On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 3:56 AM, Domas Mituzas<midom.lists [at] gmail> wrote:
>
>> I asked about this a while ago.
>> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project:Support_desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/007#tuning_MediaWiki
>> :Aboutsite
>
> asking on-wiki doesn't really makes much sense, as I don't read it ;-p
>
> Anyway, we have to ensure, that most of wikis (at least top20 ones)
> have got ridden of curly braces and any other expensive parser stuff
> in these messages, as that costs them up to 10 milliseconds per
> pageview (if anyone writes a bot to do this automatically, I'd gladly
> run it with my global super duper privileges :)) :

In the long-term, wouldn't it be smarter to make some of these stable
and quasi-stable tokens automatically cache in their evaluated state?
For something like {{SITENAME}} there is little reason to be looking
it up every single time the message loads, so why not teach Mediawiki
to pre-evaluate that and similar items before putting it in the
message cache? For the rare case that such things do change you'd
need to make sure that the cache does get rebuilt periodically (or
have someway to detect such changes and deliberately refresh the
cache), but such changes are so rare that adding some lag on update
might be acceptable.

-Robert Rohde

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happy-melon at live

Aug 31, 2009, 10:01 AM

Post #20 of 39 (1772 views)
Permalink

Re: how to chang {{SITENAME}} [In reply to]

"Platonides" <Platonides [at] gmail> wrote in message
news:h7gok4$6vv$1 [at] ger
> 1) Copy that list
> 2) Prepend MediaWiki: namespace
> 3) Post to Special:Export
> 4) Automate it:
> ...
> 6) Profit!!
>

What's step 5? :-P

--HM

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Simetrical+wikilist at gmail

Aug 31, 2009, 2:47 PM

Post #21 of 39 (1771 views)
Permalink

Re: how to chang {{SITENAME}} [In reply to]

On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 1:01 PM, Happy-melon<happy-melon [at] live> wrote:
> "Platonides" <Platonides [at] gmail> wrote in message
> news:h7gok4$6vv$1 [at] ger
>> 1) Copy that list
>> 2) Prepend MediaWiki: namespace
>> 3) Post to Special:Export
>> 4) Automate it:
>> ...
>> 6) Profit!!
>
> What's step 5? :-P

"???", presumably.

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Platonides at gmail

Aug 31, 2009, 2:55 PM

Post #22 of 39 (1773 views)
Permalink

Re: how to chang {{SITENAME}} [In reply to]

Aryeh Gregor wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 1:01 PM, Happy-melon<happy-melon [at] live> wrote:
>> "Platonides" <Platonides [at] gmail> wrote in message
>> news:h7gok4$6vv$1 [at] ger
>>> 1) Copy that list
>>> 2) Prepend MediaWiki: namespace
>>> 3) Post to Special:Export
>>> 4) Automate it:
>>> ...
>>> 6) Profit!!
>> What's step 5? :-P
>
> "???", presumably.

Right. :)
(see Happy-melon, you _knew_ it!)

...Or perhaps a sysadmin beating those sysops so the servers can profit
having a few less cpu usage. ;)

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midom.lists at gmail

Aug 31, 2009, 4:09 PM

Post #23 of 39 (1770 views)
Permalink

Re: how to chang {{SITENAME}} [In reply to]

Hello,
>
> While I appreciate Domas' search for more performance,

Please, I'm not looking for "more performance" here, we've been
removing those tokens for few years already ;-)

> There is also a
> constant flow of new localised messages and these can include the
> list of
> messages that has been shown earlier in this thread.

And? We will remove {{'s on live site. Messages will be localized.

> What I am looking for is proper support.

Proper support for what?

> The least is proper documentation
> and it can be expanded to a procedure that allows other wikis to
> benefit
> from the knowledge we have gained.

I have gained knowledge, that we cannot afford parsed messages within
standard UI.

> My overriding concern is that our
> language support is not sacrificed at the cost of a few cycles. Even
> when
> there are a lot of them.

FFS, WE WILL HAVE TRADEOFFS. If your concern is that we have to avoid
tradeoffs and only your opinion matters, please, shut up, and
unsubscribe.
You failed to present what breaks if we reduce messages, and all you
do is just blabber about some language support.

We do support languages, last I checked. What we don't support is
flexible complex messages on our _live_site_.
It is not just cost of cycles, it is ability to deliver pages to our
users faster.

-- Domas

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midom.lists at gmail

Aug 31, 2009, 4:15 PM

Post #24 of 39 (1770 views)
Permalink

Re: how to chang {{SITENAME}} [In reply to]

Hi,

> In the long-term, wouldn't it be smarter to make some of these stable
> and quasi-stable tokens automatically cache in their evaluated state?

We already do, we cache such simplified messages in Mediawiki:
namespace.

> For something like {{SITENAME}} there is little reason to be looking
> it up every single time the message loads, so why not teach Mediawiki
> to pre-evaluate that and similar items before putting it in the
> message cache?

There is little reason to keep {{SITENAME}} in Mediawiki: namespace
too :)
Generally, this could be handled by simple bot.

Do note, we end up with other messages, where people want to use
singular/plural for e.g. 'Categories'.

> For the rare case that such things do change you'd
> need to make sure that the cache does get rebuilt periodically (or
> have someway to detect such changes and deliberately refresh the
> cache), but such changes are so rare that adding some lag on update
> might be acceptable.

Well, Mediawiki: is such cache :) We don't need to change our code at
all then :)

Domas

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node.ue at gmail

Aug 31, 2009, 7:16 PM

Post #25 of 39 (1783 views)
Permalink

Re: how to chang {{SITENAME}} [In reply to]

I was under the impression we were talking about changing the strings
at the individual Wikis, thus a custom message, not in the language
files used for all MediaWiki sites... I'm not sure, then, what the
problem is Gerard? If we alter a message locally at Wikipedia how does
that affect TranslateWiki's efficacy with regards to non-Wikimedia
wikis?

Mark

On 8/31/09, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen [at] gmail> wrote:
> Hoi,
> Centralised localisation works when the resulting localised messages are
> usable and useful in all environments. More exceptions to this rule make it
> seem as if central localisation is not a good idea. There is already one
> acknowledged exception to the rule; messages that inform about the policies
> of a local wiki, there is now a second category and they are messages that
> have parameters like the system name.
>
> While I appreciate Domas' search for more performance, I am equally of the
> opinion that there are other factors to consider. Siebrand wrote that HE is
> aware of this. This is nice but we support other projects that run MediaWiki
> and our support should allow for THEY are aware of this. There is also a
> constant flow of new localised messages and these can include the list of
> messages that has been shown earlier in this thread. I can imagine that we
> have some functionality that is part of the update.php that updates these
> values in the plain vanilla messages.
>
> What I am looking for is proper support. The least is proper documentation
> and it can be expanded to a procedure that allows other wikis to benefit
> from the knowledge we have gained. My overriding concern is that our
> language support is not sacrificed at the cost of a few cycles. Even when
> there are a lot of them.
> Thanks,
> GerardM
>
> 2009/8/31 Andrew Garrett <agarrett [at] wikimedia>
>
>>
>> On 31/08/2009, at 9:27 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>>
>> > Hoi,
>> > There are two opposing objectives at play. Performance is one and
>> > quality
>> > localisation for MediaWiki in all our projects is the second. Just
>> > stating
>> > that performance trumps our localisation is also very much a nono.
>> >
>> > These are consequences and they have to be considered. Just breaking
>> > the way
>> > our localisation works in this way is at least equally unacceptable
>> > as poor
>> > performance is.
>>
>> You haven't explained exactly what impact this will have on
>> localisation. Perhaps providing concrete disadvantages instead of
>> vague topic areas will make your argument more convincing.
>>
>> --
>> Andrew Garrett
>> agarrett [at] wikimedia
>> http://werdn.us/
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>> Wikitech-l [at] lists
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l [at] lists
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>

--
skype: node.ue

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