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It makes more overload to delete system massages in local wiki's MediaWiki namespace pages?

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mizusumashi at coda

Mar 11, 2009, 9:57 AM

Post #1 of 10 (1804 views)
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It makes more overload to delete system massages in local wiki's MediaWiki namespace pages?

Hello everyone.

I'm a sysop of Japanese Wikipedia. I'm going to delete many MediaWiki
namespace pages that have same contents as betawiki. I think this work
will make less operation cost.

I hava a question about caching and sever's overload. My colleague said
that local wiki's MediaWiki namescape pages may make less overload of
it's server, because these messages chaced and default messages are read
from files.

I think, default messages are in PHP code files and these PHP codes may
be compiled and cached between apache is alive. In other hand, messages
saved in local Wiki are in DB, and they are got from DB server by all
page requests.

Of course, even if local Wiki's MediaWiki namespace page don't exist,
access to DB server is needed - because we don't know which it exist or
not before access to DB server. Therefore non-existent of a MediaWiki
namespace page makes a addional process.

But does this "addional process" mean just continuation to execute
compiled codes without any reading from file or DB? This "overload" is
same as zero, I think.

It makes more overload to delete system massages in local wiki's
MediaWiki namespace pages?

Sorry for my poor English. Thank you.

----
[[w:ja:Mizusumashi]]

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roan.kattouw at home

Mar 11, 2009, 10:14 AM

Post #2 of 10 (1723 views)
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Re: It makes more overload to delete system massages in local wiki's MediaWiki namespace pages? [In reply to]

mizusumashi schreef:
> Hello everyone.
>
> I'm a sysop of Japanese Wikipedia. I'm going to delete many MediaWiki
> namespace pages that have same contents as betawiki. I think this work
> will make less operation cost.
>
> I hava a question about caching and sever's overload. My colleague said
> that local wiki's MediaWiki namescape pages may make less overload of
> it's server, because these messages chaced and default messages are read
> from files.
>
If (*if*) I recall correctly, all messages are cached, no matter where
(MessagesJp.php or MediaWiki: pages) they come from, so there shouldn't
be a difference, other than that MediaWiki: pages each use a tiny amount
of space.

Roan Kattouw (Catrope)

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Platonides at gmail

Mar 11, 2009, 10:16 AM

Post #3 of 10 (1724 views)
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Re: It makes more overload to delete system massages in local wiki's MediaWiki namespace pages? [In reply to]

Don't worry about performance, delete from the wiki and use betawiki.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Don%27t_worry_about_performance

The files get heavily cached. A page-existence check is faster than
retrieving tha page, but in this case, all mediawiki messages are cached
at memcached.
Performance difference will be minimal. I would expect it to be slighty
faster with files but the error level can make it behave the other way.

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gerard.meijssen at gmail

Mar 11, 2009, 10:44 AM

Post #4 of 10 (1731 views)
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Re: It makes more overload to delete system massages in local wiki's MediaWiki namespace pages? [In reply to]

Hoi,
The advantage of deleting the messages that are the same in
translatewiki.net (formerly Betawiki) and the local messages is that when a
message CHANGES, a change made at translatewiki.net will have an effect on
your local system as well. It is for this reason that it is a good idea to
have as few messages possible that are created locally. The messages that
you want to have locally should contain information that is specific to your
project that means are specific to the Japanese Wikipedia.
Thanks,
GerardM

2009/3/11 mizusumashi <mizusumashi [at] coda>

> Hello everyone.
>
> I'm a sysop of Japanese Wikipedia. I'm going to delete many MediaWiki
> namespace pages that have same contents as betawiki. I think this work
> will make less operation cost.
>
> I hava a question about caching and sever's overload. My colleague said
> that local wiki's MediaWiki namescape pages may make less overload of
> it's server, because these messages chaced and default messages are read
> from files.
>
> I think, default messages are in PHP code files and these PHP codes may
> be compiled and cached between apache is alive. In other hand, messages
> saved in local Wiki are in DB, and they are got from DB server by all
> page requests.
>
> Of course, even if local Wiki's MediaWiki namespace page don't exist,
> access to DB server is needed - because we don't know which it exist or
> not before access to DB server. Therefore non-existent of a MediaWiki
> namespace page makes a addional process.
>
> But does this "addional process" mean just continuation to execute
> compiled codes without any reading from file or DB? This "overload" is
> same as zero, I think.
>
> It makes more overload to delete system massages in local wiki's
> MediaWiki namespace pages?
>
> Sorry for my poor English. Thank you.
>
> ----
> [[w:ja:Mizusumashi]]
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l [at] lists
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
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Simetrical+wikilist at gmail

Mar 11, 2009, 3:36 PM

Post #5 of 10 (1719 views)
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Re: It makes more overload to delete system massages in local wiki's MediaWiki namespace pages? [In reply to]

On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 12:57 PM, mizusumashi
<mizusumashi [at] coda> wrote:
> I hava a question about caching and sever's overload. My colleague said
> that local wiki's MediaWiki namescape pages may make less overload of
> it's server, because these messages chaced and default messages are read
> from files.
>
> I think, default messages are in PHP code files and these PHP codes may
> be compiled and cached between apache is alive. In other hand, messages
> saved in local Wiki are in DB, and they are got from DB server by all
> page requests.

Messages are almost never retrieved from either the DB or from files.
They're normally retrieved from memcached, regardless of where they
originate. As far as I know, there should therefore be no difference
at all between whether the messages come from files or from BetaWiki.

It's good policy to blank messages that are the same as the default,
but only so that your wiki will get any updates or improvements to the
defaults automatically. (IIRC, a blank message is treated as
nonexistent, and it preserves the history publicly, so this is likely
preferable to deletion.)

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innocentkiller at gmail

Mar 11, 2009, 3:39 PM

Post #6 of 10 (1729 views)
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Re: It makes more overload to delete system massages in local wiki's MediaWiki namespace pages? [In reply to]

On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 6:36 PM, Aryeh Gregor
<Simetrical+wikilist [at] gmail> wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 12:57 PM, mizusumashi
> <mizusumashi [at] coda> wrote:
>> I hava a question about caching and sever's overload. �My colleague said
>> that local wiki's MediaWiki namescape pages may make less overload of
>> it's server, because these messages chaced and default messages are read
>> from files.
>>
>> I think, default messages are in PHP code files and these PHP codes may
>> be compiled and cached between apache is alive. �In other hand, messages
>> saved in local Wiki are in DB, and they are got from DB server by all
>> page requests.
>
> Messages are almost never retrieved from either the DB or from files.
> They're normally retrieved from memcached, regardless of where they
> originate. �As far as I know, there should therefore be no difference
> at all between whether the messages come from files or from BetaWiki.
>
> It's good policy to blank messages that are the same as the default,
> but only so that your wiki will get any updates or improvements to the
> defaults automatically. �(IIRC, a blank message is treated as
> nonexistent, and it preserves the history publicly, so this is likely
> preferable to deletion.)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l [at] lists
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

When blanking, it would depend on the situation. Some things
explicitly check for wfEmptyMsg(), some check for voiding by '-'.
Deleting it merely makes you fall back to the lang files (and also
getting updates), whatever the default may be.

-Chad

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Simetrical+wikilist at gmail

Mar 11, 2009, 4:26 PM

Post #7 of 10 (1721 views)
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Re: It makes more overload to delete system massages in local wiki's MediaWiki namespace pages? [In reply to]

On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 6:39 PM, Chad <innocentkiller [at] gmail> wrote:
> When blanking, it would depend on the situation. Some things
> explicitly check for wfEmptyMsg(), some check for voiding by '-'.

Neither is relevant to what I'm saying -- those check (respectively)
for whether the message is entirely unrecognized, and whether the
respective bit of interface is intended to be nonexistent.

> Deleting it merely makes you fall back to the lang files (and also
> getting updates), whatever the default may be.

I believe blanking it does the same. Am I wrong?

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gmane at kennel17

Mar 12, 2009, 4:49 AM

Post #8 of 10 (1703 views)
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Re: It makes more overload to delete system massages in local wiki's MediaWiki namespace pages? [In reply to]

"Platonides" <Platonides [at] gmail> wrote in message
news:gp8rli$al3$1 [at] ger
> Don't worry about performance, delete from the wiki and use betawiki.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Don%27t_worry_about_performance
>
> The files get heavily cached. A page-existence check is faster than
> retrieving tha page, but in this case, all mediawiki messages are cached
> at memcached.
> Performance difference will be minimal. I would expect it to be slighty
> faster with files but the error level can make it behave the other way.

Is there a noticeable performance difference between the two methods if
memcached is not available? Obviously this is not applicable to WMF wikis,
but I imagine the majority of wikis run without any external caching (beyond
whatever is present in MW itself).

- Mark Clements (HappyDog)

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Simetrical+wikilist at gmail

Mar 12, 2009, 6:24 AM

Post #9 of 10 (1711 views)
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Re: It makes more overload to delete system massages in local wiki's MediaWiki namespace pages? [In reply to]

On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 7:49 AM, Mark Clements (HappyDog)
<gmane [at] kennel17> wrote:
> Is there a noticeable performance difference between the two methods if
> memcached is not available? Obviously this is not applicable to WMF wikis,
> but I imagine the majority of wikis run without any external caching (beyond
> whatever is present in MW itself).

In this case, going to the database is drastically slower. On the
other hand, you have to go to the database anyway, because you don't
know if the message exists in the database without querying it. So
there's probably no big difference in this case either. Users without
a cache should consider disabling $wgUseDatabaseMessages entirely, or
use some other caching method like $wgLocalMessageCache (don't know if
that actually works). They should see a large speedup from this.

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roan.kattouw at home

Mar 12, 2009, 9:10 AM

Post #10 of 10 (1703 views)
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Re: It makes more overload to delete system massages in local wiki's MediaWiki namespace pages? [In reply to]

Aryeh Gregor schreef:
> On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 7:49 AM, Mark Clements (HappyDog)
> <gmane [at] kennel17> wrote:
>> Is there a noticeable performance difference between the two methods if
>> memcached is not available? Obviously this is not applicable to WMF wikis,
>> but I imagine the majority of wikis run without any external caching (beyond
>> whatever is present in MW itself).
>
> In this case, going to the database is drastically slower. On the
> other hand, you have to go to the database anyway, because you don't
> know if the message exists in the database without querying it. So
> there's probably no big difference in this case either.
Also note that by default, the objectcache table in the database will be
used to cache messages in.

Roan Kattouw (Catrope)

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