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Unified Login System eases user day to day work?

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jidanni at jidanni

Jun 13, 2008, 7:23 PM

Post #1 of 23 (1021 views)
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Unified Login System eases user day to day work?

The Unified Login System, it doesn't actually cut down on my need to
type login and password at all, does it?

From the point of view of me, all I see different using the new
Unified Login System is that I don't have to worry about some user
taking my Jidanni username on some MediaWiki wiki that I haven't taken
it already on.

Maybe it should just be called the Universal Username reservation
system.

I don't see how it might make my day to day need to type Login and
password to MediaWiki sites who's cookies aren't already in my browser
easier.

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:Unified_login#How_is_it_going_to_log_me_into_other_projects.3F

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pathoschild at gmail

Jun 13, 2008, 8:33 PM

Post #2 of 23 (1007 views)
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Re: Unified Login System eases user day to day work? [In reply to]

On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 10:23 PM, <jidanni[at]jidanni.org> wrote:
> The Unified Login System, it doesn't actually cut down on my need to
> type login and password at all, does it?

Signing into a global account logs you in on all Wikimedia wikis. You
can then visit any such wiki, and you will already be logged in (even
if you didn't previously have an account there!). As a steward who
needs to visit a dozen or two wikis every day, this has been a
wonderful time-saver.

--
Yours cordially,
Jesse Plamondon-Willard (Pathoschild)

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tstarling at wikimedia

Jun 13, 2008, 8:36 PM

Post #3 of 23 (1013 views)
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Re: Unified Login System eases user day to day work? [In reply to]

jidanni[at]jidanni.org wrote:
> The Unified Login System, it doesn't actually cut down on my need to
> type login and password at all, does it?
>
> From the point of view of me, all I see different using the new
> Unified Login System is that I don't have to worry about some user
> taking my Jidanni username on some MediaWiki wiki that I haven't taken
> it already on.
>
> Maybe it should just be called the Universal Username reservation
> system.
>
> I don't see how it might make my day to day need to type Login and
> password to MediaWiki sites who's cookies aren't already in my browser
> easier.
>
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:Unified_login#How_is_it_going_to_log_me_into_other_projects.3F

It's because you have images disabled. You could move down from that
mountain of yours and get a real internet connection, or you could log
into each second-level domain separately, plus each of the *.wikimedia.org
domains you wish to use.

If you log in to Meta, you only get cookies for meta (plus cookies for
other domains transferred via image requests). If you log in to the
English Wikipedia, you get cookies for all Wikipedias.

-- Tim Starling

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marco at harddisk

Jun 14, 2008, 3:17 AM

Post #4 of 23 (1005 views)
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Re: Unified Login System eases user day to day work? [In reply to]

Tim Starling schrieb:
> If you log in to Meta, you only get cookies for meta (plus cookies for
> other domains transferred via image requests). If you log in to the
> English Wikipedia, you get cookies for all Wikipedias.
How does that actually work from a technical POV? *.wikipedia.org cookies?

Marco

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Platonides at gmail

Jun 14, 2008, 3:28 AM

Post #5 of 23 (1005 views)
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Re: Unified Login System eases user day to day work? [In reply to]

Marco Schuster wrote:
> Tim Starling schrieb:
>> If you log in to Meta, you only get cookies for meta (plus cookies for
>> other domains transferred via image requests). If you log in to the
>> English Wikipedia, you get cookies for all Wikipedias.
> How does that actually work from a technical POV? *.wikipedia.org cookies?
>
> Marco

Yes. *.wikipedia.org, *.wiktionary.org... Wikimedia.org is an special
case in which are some external subdomains so *.wikimedia.org cookies
are not used.

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Simetrical+wikilist at gmail

Jun 15, 2008, 8:57 AM

Post #6 of 23 (990 views)
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Re: Unified Login System eases user day to day work? [In reply to]

On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 11:36 PM, Tim Starling <tstarling[at]wikimedia.org> wrote:
> It's because you have images disabled.

I wonder if there's any way to get this to work automatically for
people with images/styles/scripts disabled. Frames? :)

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jidanni at jidanni

Jun 15, 2008, 5:40 PM

Post #7 of 23 (985 views)
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Re: Unified Login System eases user day to day work? [In reply to]

TS> It's because you have images disabled.

Well then please instead of having that ALT text say that I am now
logged in to all those domains (with all their names glued together),
why not have that ALT text say I am "NOT logged in ... because I have
images disabled."

TS> You could move down from that mountain of yours and get a real
TS> internet connection,
(Now I have 256/64K ADSL, but just don't want all those goofy images here
in my somber emacs-w3m browser, unless I hit "t".)

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Simetrical+wikilist at gmail

Jun 15, 2008, 6:14 PM

Post #8 of 23 (988 views)
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Re: Unified Login System eases user day to day work? [In reply to]

On Sun, Jun 15, 2008 at 8:40 PM, <jidanni[at]jidanni.org> wrote:
> Well then please instead of having that ALT text say that I am now
> logged in to all those domains (with all their names glued together),
> why not have that ALT text say I am "NOT logged in ... because I have
> images disabled."

Now that's a sensible idea.

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midom.lists at gmail

Jun 16, 2008, 12:16 AM

Post #9 of 23 (983 views)
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Re: Unified Login System eases user day to day work? [In reply to]

> Now that's a sensible idea.

not really. it would mean that 99.(9)% of users will get "you are not
logged in" when they over their mouse above the images.

BR,
--
Domas Mituzas -- http://dammit.lt/ -- [[user:midom]]

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dan_the_man at telus

Jun 16, 2008, 12:31 AM

Post #10 of 23 (981 views)
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Re: Unified Login System eases user day to day work? [In reply to]

And it wouldn't show up for sane browsers like FF which use the title=""
instead of alt="" to display when no images are in the page. If you did
include a title in addition to that, then 100% of users would get that
false information on hover.

~Daniel Friesen(Dantman) of:
-The Nadir-Point Group (http://nadir-point.com)
--It's Wiki-Tools subgroup (http://wiki-tools.com)
--Games-G.P.S. (http://ggps.org)
-And Wikia ACG on Wikia.com (http://wikia.com/wiki/Wikia_ACG)

Domas Mituzas wrote:
>> Now that's a sensible idea.
>>
>
>
> not really. it would mean that 99.(9)% of users will get "you are not
> logged in" when they over their mouse above the images.
>
> BR,
>
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bryan.tongminh at gmail

Jun 16, 2008, 2:31 AM

Post #11 of 23 (983 views)
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Re: Unified Login System eases user day to day work? [In reply to]

On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 9:16 AM, Domas Mituzas <midom.lists[at]gmail.com> wrote:
>> Now that's a sensible idea.
>
>
> not really. it would mean that 99.(9)% of users will get "you are not
> logged in" when they over their mouse above the images.
>
In that case we should probably just remove the alt text at all.

Bryan

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Simetrical+wikilist at gmail

Jun 16, 2008, 6:19 AM

Post #12 of 23 (983 views)
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Re: Unified Login System eases user day to day work? [In reply to]

On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 3:16 AM, Domas Mituzas <midom.lists[at]gmail.com> wrote:
> not really. it would mean that 99.(9)% of users will get "you are not
> logged in" when they over their mouse above the images.

"alt" is not supposed to be used for hover text for like ten years.
HTML 4.0 introduced the "title" attribute for this purpose:

http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/REC-html401-19991224/struct/global.html#title

Firefox, Opera, and other reasonable and remotely recent browsers
don't display the alt attribute as a tooltip under any circumstances.
IE, of course, does, but that can be easily circumvented by adding a
title attribute, which overrides the alt attribute in any version of
IE more recent than the Neolithic. In particular, an empty title
attribute causes it to display no popup. Alternatively, an
informative title attribute could be added for its hover text.

On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 3:31 AM, DanTMan <dan_the_man[at]telus.net> wrote:
> And it wouldn't show up for sane browsers like FF which use the title=""
> instead of alt="" to display when no images are in the page. If you did
> include a title in addition to that, then 100% of users would get that
> false information on hover.

The point is that you would *not* put the information on hover, only
as alt text.

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stephen.bain at gmail

Jun 16, 2008, 6:26 AM

Post #13 of 23 (975 views)
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Re: Unified Login System eases user day to day work? [In reply to]

On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 11:19 PM, Simetrical
<Simetrical+wikilist[at]gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Firefox, Opera, and other reasonable and remotely recent browsers
> don't display the alt attribute as a tooltip under any circumstances.
> IE, of course, does, but that can be easily circumvented by adding a
> title attribute, which overrides the alt attribute in any version of
> IE more recent than the Neolithic. In particular, an empty title
> attribute causes it to display no popup. Alternatively, an
> informative title attribute could be added for its hover text.

Why couldn't we just display a message saying that unified login only
works with images enabled? Last time I checked, all browsers display
text.

--
Stephen Bain
stephen.bain[at]gmail.com

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Simetrical+wikilist at gmail

Jun 16, 2008, 6:35 AM

Post #14 of 23 (974 views)
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Re: Unified Login System eases user day to day work? [In reply to]

On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 9:26 AM, Stephen Bain <stephen.bain[at]gmail.com> wrote:
> Why couldn't we just display a message saying that unified login only
> works with images enabled? Last time I checked, all browsers display
> text.

It's better to display it as alt text, so that the irrelevant
information is hidden if the browser does in fact support images
(which will practically always be the case).

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Ryan.Lane at ocean

Jun 16, 2008, 7:07 AM

Post #15 of 23 (984 views)
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Re: Unified Login System eases user day to day work? [In reply to]

> It's better to display it as alt text, so that the irrelevant
> information is hidden if the browser does in fact support images
> (which will practically always be the case).
>

Wouldn't this cause confusion for people using screen readers?

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thomas.dalton at gmail

Jun 16, 2008, 7:43 AM

Post #16 of 23 (975 views)
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Re: Unified Login System eases user day to day work? [In reply to]

2008/6/16 Lane, Ryan <Ryan.Lane[at]ocean.navo.navy.mil>:
>> It's better to display it as alt text, so that the irrelevant
>> information is hidden if the browser does in fact support images
>> (which will practically always be the case).
>>
>
> Wouldn't this cause confusion for people using screen readers?

Yes, I think it would. Alt text isn't just used if the image hasn't
loaded, it's used whenever the image isn't available to the user,
which includes screen readers.

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andreengels at gmail

Jun 16, 2008, 7:56 AM

Post #17 of 23 (975 views)
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Re: Unified Login System eases user day to day work? [In reply to]

I think that's an issue of using the correct text. Try to find some
text that doesn't say that one has or has not been unified loginned,
but that this depends on image loading. If I were using a screen
reader, after such a text I would not be expecting either behaviour
very confidently.

2008/6/16 Lane, Ryan <Ryan.Lane[at]ocean.navo.navy.mil>:
>> It's better to display it as alt text, so that the irrelevant
>> information is hidden if the browser does in fact support images
>> (which will practically always be the case).
>>
>
> Wouldn't this cause confusion for people using screen readers?
>
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brion at wikimedia

Jun 16, 2008, 12:47 PM

Post #18 of 23 (973 views)
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Re: Unified Login System eases user day to day work? [In reply to]

Simetrical wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 11:36 PM, Tim Starling <tstarling[at]wikimedia.org> wrote:
>> It's because you have images disabled.
>
> I wonder if there's any way to get this to work automatically for
> people with images/styles/scripts disabled. Frames? :)

<iframe>s probably would work, actually. *Shudder*. :D

-- brion

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Jun 16, 2008, 2:46 PM

Post #19 of 23 (981 views)
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Re: Unified Login System eases user day to day work? [In reply to]

On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 10:07 AM, Lane, Ryan
<Ryan.Lane[at]ocean.navo.navy.mil> wrote:
> Wouldn't this cause confusion for people using screen readers?

Um, no. That's the whole point. It will *remove* confusion for such
people, by adding a message like "Note: you will not be automatically
logged into wikis not at wikipedia.org unless images on this page are
loaded." This message will be invisible for anyone whose browser is
displaying the image. The suggestion was originally made by someone
using a text-only browser, effectively the same as a screen-reader for
this purpose.

On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 3:47 PM, Brion Vibber <brion[at]wikimedia.org> wrote:
> <iframe>s probably would work, actually. *Shudder*. :D

Do text browsers generally load iframes? I imagine so. If so, it
seems like it would be a better solution all around.

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pathoschild at gmail

Jun 16, 2008, 2:47 PM

Post #20 of 23 (978 views)
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Re: Unified Login System eases user day to day work? [In reply to]

Lane, Ryan <Ryan.Lane[at]ocean.navo.navy.mil> wrote:
>> It's better to display it as alt text, so that the irrelevant
>> information is hidden if the browser does in fact support images
>> (which will practically always be the case).
>
> Wouldn't this cause confusion for people using screen readers?

Not if it's carefully worded. With the alt text, screen readers might
output something like "Logging you in to Wikimedia's other projects /
(this requires that images be enabled)".

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Jesse Plamondon-Willard (Pathoschild)

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Platonides at gmail

Jun 17, 2008, 6:31 AM

Post #21 of 23 (951 views)
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Re: Unified Login System eases user day to day work? [In reply to]

Thomas Dalton wrote:
> 2008/6/16 Lane, Ryan:
>>> It's better to display it as alt text, so that the irrelevant
>>> information is hidden if the browser does in fact support images
>>> (which will practically always be the case).
>>>
>> Wouldn't this cause confusion for people using screen readers?
>
> Yes, I think it would. Alt text isn't just used if the image hasn't
> loaded, it's used whenever the image isn't available to the user,
> which includes screen readers.

What about using "You will be logged into $1 on the load of this image"?
So, if you're reading it you have probably have NOT loaded it, but
people with screen readers, text browsers or viewing the page source
will get the exact answer. Which of course means they'll need to figure
out by themselves if they have images enabled or not, but we don't need
to guess that much.

Simetrical:
> On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 3:47 PM, Brion Vibber wrote:
>> > <iframe>s probably would work, actually. *Shudder*. :D
>
> Do text browsers generally load iframes? I imagine so. If so, it
> seems like it would be a better solution all around.

I bet there're some wanne-be browsers out there supporting images and
not iframes.
Particulary if they only targetted preferred versions of XHTML.

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Jun 17, 2008, 9:08 AM

Post #22 of 23 (951 views)
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Re: Unified Login System eases user day to day work? [In reply to]

On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 9:31 AM, Platonides <Platonides[at]gmail.com> wrote:
> I bet there're some wanne-be browsers out there supporting images and
> not iframes.
> Particulary if they only targetted preferred versions of XHTML.

Better to force them to log in multiple times (if there even is such a
browser, which seems somewhat unlikely) than to force everyone with
images disabled, which is almost certainly a larger group.

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dan_the_man at telus

Jun 17, 2008, 6:48 PM

Post #23 of 23 (942 views)
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Re: Unified Login System eases user day to day work? [In reply to]

You can always use both.

~Daniel Friesen(Dantman) of:
-The Nadir-Point Group (http://nadir-point.com)
--It's Wiki-Tools subgroup (http://wiki-tools.com)
--Games-G.P.S. (http://ggps.org)
-And Wikia ACG on Wikia.com (http://wikia.com/wiki/Wikia_ACG)

Simetrical wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 9:31 AM, Platonides <Platonides[at]gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I bet there're some wanne-be browsers out there supporting images and
>> not iframes.
>> Particulary if they only targetted preferred versions of XHTML.
>>
>
> Better to force them to log in multiple times (if there even is such a
> browser, which seems somewhat unlikely) than to force everyone with
> images disabled, which is almost certainly a larger group.
>
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>
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