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Claims by BDS / Palestinian outreach

 

 

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dror1975 at icqmail

Jul 5, 2011, 9:44 AM

Post #1 of 29 (2242 views)
Permalink
Claims by BDS / Palestinian outreach

I personally contacted people from the Palestinian community of Israel and spread the word in the meetings I had with Palestinians from the West Bank. People showed some interest, some of them were not too acquainted with Wikipedia and asked questions, but apparently it didn't bring them to the registration page. Furthermore, I was responsible to the translation of the whole site into Arabic, including the landing page and registration page. This means that Wikimania in Haifa pops up in Arabic in Google or any other search engines. I also translated the press release about the event and I know it was sent to the major Arabic-language newspapers in the country.

That said, I am more than willing to contact any person in the West Bank in order to promote Palestinian participation. Many Palestinians have permanent entry permits into Israel, so they can reach Haifa easily, and there are many with Jerusalemite residency, who also don't need any bureaucratic arrangements. In case some bureaucracy is required, I do my best effort, as I have the necessary phone numbers at hand.

It is important to note that we encountered this year unprecedented attempts to discourage people, particularly Arab people, from coming to the event. I don't blame anyone, and I respect the freedom of speech of everybody, but it is very hard to promote an event among Arabic-speaking people, when there are FaceBook groups and blogs, some of them initiated by Wikipedians, calling upon Arab people not to attend, and even spreading false information.

Dror K


kim at bruning

Jul 5, 2011, 8:51 PM

Post #2 of 29 (2195 views)
Permalink
Re: Claims by BDS / Palestinian outreach [In reply to]

On Tue, Jul 05, 2011 at 12:44:22PM -0400, dror1975 [at] icqmail wrote:
>
>
>
> It is important to note that we encountered this year unprecedented
> attempts to discourage people, particularly Arab people, from coming
> to the event. I don't blame anyone, and I respect the freedom of
> speech of everybody, but it is very hard to promote an event among
> Arabic-speaking people, when there are FaceBook groups and blogs, some
> of them initiated by Wikipedians, calling upon Arab people not to
> attend, and even spreading false information.

This is something I would like to counter, if possible.


--
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_______________________________________________
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werespielchequers at gmail

Jul 6, 2011, 2:13 AM

Post #3 of 29 (2192 views)
Permalink
Re: Claims by BDS / Palestinian outreach [In reply to]

I think we need to be very specific when we talk about advice to
Wikimedians in Arab countries re going to Haifa. Encouraging
Wikimedians who live in countries where it would be illegal to visit
Israel to break the laws of the country they live in and attend such a
public event strikes me as inappropriate and unethical (lobbying to
change a law is something I see as very different encouraging others
to break a law).

Encouraging a boycott amongst Wikimedians who legally could go to
Israel is a very different thing. We all have real life POVs, but we
are supposed to leave them at the door when we logon to Wikimedia.

Of course if this involves offsite blogs and facebook then it drifts
into that contentious area of offwiki activities that impact
Wikipedia. For me that's fairly easy - when I'm WereSpielChequers I'm
a wikimedian, I don't use that identity outside of Wikimedia and some
of my closest friends don't know about this hobby of mine. But for
others I can see things getting more blurred, especially if they edit
in their own name. For wikimedians from cultures and countries where
Israel's continued occupation of the lands it captured in 1967 is
considered illegal and unethical, and the consequent boycott of Israel
is a cultural norm, the decision to host Wikimania in Haifa must be
making it very difficult to keep their on and off wiki positions from
getting blurred.

WereSpielChequers




On 6 July 2011 04:51, Kim Bruning <kim [at] bruning> wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 05, 2011 at 12:44:22PM -0400, dror1975 [at] icqmail wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> It is important to note that we encountered this year unprecedented
>> attempts to discourage people, particularly Arab people, from coming
>> to the event. I don't blame anyone, and I respect the freedom of
>> speech of everybody, but it is very hard to promote an event among
>> Arabic-speaking people, when there are FaceBook groups and blogs, some
>> of them initiated by Wikipedians, calling upon Arab people not to
>> attend, and even spreading false information.
>
> This is something I would like to counter, if possible.
>
>
> --
> [Non-pgp mail clients may show pgp-signature as attachment]
> gpg (www.gnupg.org) Fingerprint for key  FEF9DD72
> 5ED6 E215 73EE AD84 E03A  01C5 94AC 7B0E FEF9 DD72
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l [at] lists
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>

_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
Wikimania-l [at] lists
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church.of.emacs.ml at googlemail

Jul 6, 2011, 3:09 AM

Post #4 of 29 (2201 views)
Permalink
Re: Claims by BDS / Palestinian outreach [In reply to]

On 07/06/2011 11:13 AM, WereSpielChequers wrote:
> Encouraging Wikimedians who live in countries where it would be
> illegal to visit Israel to break the laws of the country they live in
> and attend such a public event strikes me as inappropriate and
> unethical (lobbying to change a law is something I see as very
> different encouraging others to break a law).

Slightly OT, but I depending on how you meant this, I disagree.

We should make it clear that it's their risk to break the law, but if
they are willing to take that risk, I don't have any problem with that
and in fact I think in that case we should help them any way we can.
It's the Wikimedians who break the law we should protect, not unjust
laws themselves. If a Wikimedian feels reasonably safe traveling to
Israel, even though it might be illegal, he deserves our support.

Of course that doesn't mean that we should talk people into taking risks
that they don't want to take (and if that's all you meant to say, I
completely agree :))

--Tobias
Attachments: signature.asc (0.26 KB)


kim at bruning

Jul 6, 2011, 4:33 AM

Post #5 of 29 (2196 views)
Permalink
Re: Claims by BDS / Palestinian outreach [In reply to]

On Wed, Jul 06, 2011 at 01:11:09PM +0100, WereSpielChequers wrote:
> Absolutely if someone does come from a country that has laws against
> their attending then we should do our best to keep them safe.

I don't think it's really against the law anywhere, and we haven't heard reports about there being any issues
(I did ask explicitly).

The problem is that BDS (and others?) are explicitly acting against wikimania. I'd love to hear more reports
on this. I think having a wikimania in haifa is actually going
to be beneficial to all parties. :-)

For starters I think we need to figure out why palestinians aren't attending.
If it's really a small sample, it might simply be because none happen to have time.

Could folks ask around on their home wikis ?

sincerely,
Kim Bruning


--
[Non-pgp mail clients may show pgp-signature as attachment]
gpg (www.gnupg.org) Fingerprint for key FEF9DD72
5ED6 E215 73EE AD84 E03A 01C5 94AC 7B0E FEF9 DD72

_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
Wikimania-l [at] lists
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l


werespielchequers at gmail

Jul 6, 2011, 5:11 AM

Post #6 of 29 (2195 views)
Permalink
Re: Claims by BDS / Palestinian outreach [In reply to]

Absolutely if someone does come from a country that has laws against
their attending then we should do our best to keep them safe. I hope
that my concerns turn out to be overcautious, but I do worry that we
have some young, enthusiastic and occasionally naive editors, and we
could have a fellow editor attend who for decades to come lives in
fear of being exposed as the Wikimedian from his or her country who
broke the law against going to Israel. And yes I've heard the argument
that some of the countries that have laws against their citizens going
to Israel don't currently do much to enforce those laws. But it is
that sort of complacency and short termism that makes me genuinely
fearful that we could have someone getting into serious trouble
because they broke their country's law against attending an event in
Israel.

There are fine lines between enabling people to break a law and
encouraging or discouraging them from doing so.

But regardless of all that the decision was taken many months ago to
hold Wikimania in Haifa. The time to debate that decision is long
past, what we should concentrate on now is making the event a success
and enabling more virtual participation, as in my view that is the
biggest opportunity at this stage to increase participation. If people
are going to come in person presumably they have already booked.

WSC

WereSpielChequers
WSC



On 6 July 2011 11:09, church.of.emacs.ml
<church.of.emacs.ml [at] googlemail> wrote:
> On 07/06/2011 11:13 AM, WereSpielChequers wrote:
>> Encouraging Wikimedians who live in countries where it would be
>> illegal to visit Israel to break the laws of the country they live in
>> and attend such a public event strikes me as inappropriate and
>> unethical (lobbying to change a law is something I see as very
>> different encouraging others to break a law).
>
> Slightly OT, but I depending on how you meant this, I disagree.
>
> We should make it clear that it's their risk to break the law, but if
> they are willing to take that risk, I don't have any problem with that
> and in fact I think in that case we should help them any way we can.
> It's the Wikimedians who break the law we should protect, not unjust
> laws themselves. If a Wikimedian feels reasonably safe traveling to
> Israel, even though it might be illegal, he deserves our support.
>
> Of course that doesn't mean that we should talk people into taking risks
> that they don't want to take (and if that's all you meant to say, I
> completely agree :))
>
> --Tobias
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l [at] lists
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>

_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
Wikimania-l [at] lists
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l


werespielchequers at gmail

Jul 6, 2011, 5:37 AM

Post #7 of 29 (2194 views)
Permalink
Re: Claims by BDS / Palestinian outreach [In reply to]

Visiting Israel is against the law in several Islamic countries, this
is covered in http://wikimania2011.wikimedia.org/wiki/Visas#Visas_for_Middle_Eastern_Countries_.28other_than_Egypt_and_Jordan.29

And was discussed earlier this year at
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimania_2011/Bids/Haifa#Arab_countries

WSC

On 6 July 2011 12:33, Kim Bruning <kim [at] bruning> wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 06, 2011 at 01:11:09PM +0100, WereSpielChequers wrote:
>> Absolutely if someone does come from a country that has laws against
>> their attending then we should do our best to keep them safe.
>
> I don't think it's really against the law anywhere, and we haven't heard reports about there being any issues
> (I did ask explicitly).
>
> The problem is that BDS (and others?) are explicitly acting against wikimania. I'd love to hear more reports
> on this.  I think having a wikimania in haifa is actually going
> to be beneficial to all parties. :-)
>
> For starters I think we need to figure out why palestinians aren't attending.
> If it's really a small sample, it might simply be because none happen to have time.
>
> Could folks ask around on their home wikis ?
>
> sincerely,
>        Kim Bruning
>
>
> --
> [Non-pgp mail clients may show pgp-signature as attachment]
> gpg (www.gnupg.org) Fingerprint for key  FEF9DD72
> 5ED6 E215 73EE AD84 E03A  01C5 94AC 7B0E FEF9 DD72
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l [at] lists
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>

_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
Wikimania-l [at] lists
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l


abartov at wikimedia

Jul 6, 2011, 7:34 AM

Post #8 of 29 (2198 views)
Permalink
Re: Claims by BDS / Palestinian outreach [In reply to]

On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 4:33 AM, Kim Bruning <kim [at] bruning> wrote:

> The problem is that BDS (and others?) are explicitly acting against
> wikimania. I'd love to hear more reports
> on this. I think having a wikimania in haifa is actually going
> to be beneficial to all parties. :-)
>

Strictly speaking, we don't actually know this to be a problem. There is no
proof of the BDS campaign having dissuaded large numbers of potential
attendees, especially from Arab countries. Any such potential attendees
would have been dissuaded by other reasons, already discussed extensively on
this and other lists, -- political climate in their countries, personal
perception of attendance as implicit support of the Israeli government
policy, etc..

By all means go on publicizing WM2011 among Arabic speakers. Once again,
the local team has made it clear it is committed to helping anyone who would
like to attend. But perhaps it's time to stop pretending it is entirely up
to us whether Arabic speakers would be well-represented in this Wikimania or
not?

Asaf
--
Asaf Bartov
(personal opinion)


shipmaster at gmail

Jul 7, 2011, 12:11 AM

Post #9 of 29 (2191 views)
Permalink
Re: Claims by BDS / Palestinian outreach [In reply to]

This is a contact I sent to this list almost a year ago. When I was asked to
reach out to anyone and see if there is someone interested in coordinating
with the WM11 team. I was told by my Palestinian-American friends that this
university and its dean have campuses in East Jerusalem and the WB, making
it easy for Israelis to contact. The dean's cv has his phone and email. It
would be good if he is contacted to see if he is willing to help.

http://sari.alquds.edu/cv_sari.htm
http://www.alquds.edu/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Quds_University
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sari_Nusseibeh

On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 7:34 AM, Asaf Bartov <abartov [at] wikimedia> wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 4:33 AM, Kim Bruning <kim [at] bruning> wrote:
>
>> The problem is that BDS (and others?) are explicitly acting against
>> wikimania. I'd love to hear more reports
>> on this. I think having a wikimania in haifa is actually going
>> to be beneficial to all parties. :-)
>>
>
> Strictly speaking, we don't actually know this to be a problem. There is
> no proof of the BDS campaign having dissuaded large numbers of potential
> attendees, especially from Arab countries. Any such potential attendees
> would have been dissuaded by other reasons, already discussed extensively on
> this and other lists, -- political climate in their countries, personal
> perception of attendance as implicit support of the Israeli government
> policy, etc..
>
> By all means go on publicizing WM2011 among Arabic speakers. Once again,
> the local team has made it clear it is committed to helping anyone who would
> like to attend. But perhaps it's time to stop pretending it is entirely up
> to us whether Arabic speakers would be well-represented in this Wikimania or
> not?
>
> Asaf
> --
> Asaf Bartov
> (personal opinion)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l [at] lists
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>


--
Best Regards,
Muhammad Yahia


shipmaster at gmail

Jul 13, 2011, 11:09 AM

Post #10 of 29 (2163 views)
Permalink
Re: Claims by BDS / Palestinian outreach [In reply to]

Any updates on this? did you guys manage to contact him?

On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 12:11 AM, Muhammad Yahia <shipmaster [at] gmail>wrote:

> This is a contact I sent to this list almost a year ago. When I was asked
> to reach out to anyone and see if there is someone interested in
> coordinating with the WM11 team. I was told by my Palestinian-American
> friends that this university and its dean have campuses in East Jerusalem
> and the WB, making it easy for Israelis to contact. The dean's cv has his
> phone and email. It would be good if he is contacted to see if he is willing
> to help.
>
> http://sari.alquds.edu/cv_sari.htm
> http://www.alquds.edu/
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Quds_University
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sari_Nusseibeh
>
> On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 7:34 AM, Asaf Bartov <abartov [at] wikimedia> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 4:33 AM, Kim Bruning <kim [at] bruning>wrote:
>>
>>> The problem is that BDS (and others?) are explicitly acting against
>>> wikimania. I'd love to hear more reports
>>> on this. I think having a wikimania in haifa is actually going
>>> to be beneficial to all parties. :-)
>>>
>>
>> Strictly speaking, we don't actually know this to be a problem. There is
>> no proof of the BDS campaign having dissuaded large numbers of potential
>> attendees, especially from Arab countries. Any such potential attendees
>> would have been dissuaded by other reasons, already discussed extensively on
>> this and other lists, -- political climate in their countries, personal
>> perception of attendance as implicit support of the Israeli government
>> policy, etc..
>>
>> By all means go on publicizing WM2011 among Arabic speakers. Once again,
>> the local team has made it clear it is committed to helping anyone who would
>> like to attend. But perhaps it's time to stop pretending it is entirely up
>> to us whether Arabic speakers would be well-represented in this Wikimania or
>> not?
>>
>> Asaf
>> --
>> Asaf Bartov
>> (personal opinion)
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l [at] lists
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Best Regards,
> Muhammad Yahia
>



--
Best Regards,
Muhammad Yahia


harel.cain at gmail

Jul 13, 2011, 1:35 PM

Post #11 of 29 (2164 views)
Permalink
Re: Claims by BDS / Palestinian outreach [In reply to]

Dear Muhammad,

The short answer is that we never contacted Sari Nusseibeh, and we're not
very satisfied with this situation.

This is for a mixture of reasons, some of them mundane (nobody really picked
up this specific suggestion; we were all busy; we forgot about it; we all
assumed someone else will do it) and some of them more to the point - first
and foremost because he is perceived, at least in the Israeli public, as a
downright political figure, having held formal positions positions on the
Palestinian side.

Clearly he's perceived as a moderate political figure, but that is totally
beside the point - we never meant to make Wikimania political (such as for
example inviting politicians to speak before us), and Sari Nusseibeh is very
much about politics.

Even his affiliation with moderate/leftist organizations on the Israeli side
of the political spectrum make this a political move in the inner Israeli
political perspective of the conference, and we don't want to make Wikimania
political even in this narrow sense.

We are not opposed to people trying to contact him, and I hope someone like
Dror Kamir on our part might still do it, but we are somewhat reserved about
his specific suitability here, because of unmistakeable political
involvement.

Harel Cain
Wikimania 2011 local team



On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 10:11, Muhammad Yahia <shipmaster [at] gmail> wrote:

> This is a contact I sent to this list almost a year ago. When I was asked
> to reach out to anyone and see if there is someone interested in
> coordinating with the WM11 team. I was told by my Palestinian-American
> friends that this university and its dean have campuses in East Jerusalem
> and the WB, making it easy for Israelis to contact. The dean's cv has his
> phone and email. It would be good if he is contacted to see if he is willing
> to help.
>
> http://sari.alquds.edu/cv_sari.htm
> http://www.alquds.edu/
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Quds_University
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sari_Nusseibeh
>
> On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 7:34 AM, Asaf Bartov <abartov [at] wikimedia> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 4:33 AM, Kim Bruning <kim [at] bruning>wrote:
>>
>>> The problem is that BDS (and others?) are explicitly acting against
>>> wikimania. I'd love to hear more reports
>>> on this. I think having a wikimania in haifa is actually going
>>> to be beneficial to all parties. :-)
>>>
>>
>> Strictly speaking, we don't actually know this to be a problem. There is
>> no proof of the BDS campaign having dissuaded large numbers of potential
>> attendees, especially from Arab countries. Any such potential attendees
>> would have been dissuaded by other reasons, already discussed extensively on
>> this and other lists, -- political climate in their countries, personal
>> perception of attendance as implicit support of the Israeli government
>> policy, etc..
>>
>> By all means go on publicizing WM2011 among Arabic speakers. Once again,
>> the local team has made it clear it is committed to helping anyone who would
>> like to attend. But perhaps it's time to stop pretending it is entirely up
>> to us whether Arabic speakers would be well-represented in this Wikimania or
>> not?
>>
>> Asaf
>> --
>> Asaf Bartov
>> (personal opinion)
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l [at] lists
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Best Regards,
> Muhammad Yahia
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l [at] lists
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>


--
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.


shipmaster at gmail

Jul 13, 2011, 3:54 PM

Post #12 of 29 (2173 views)
Permalink
Re: Claims by BDS / Palestinian outreach [In reply to]

I seem to be missing the point here.

I thought you guys were going to contact him in his capacity as the dean of
the Al-Quds university, exploring how to cooperate with him on spreading the
news about Wikimania among students and helping those who want to attend.
Something which you guys have said repeatedly you are open to only if
someone can find you a contact? I don't see how his political affiliations
factor into the equation here.

It is disappointing to me that you guys repeatedly said you were willing to
do outreach into the palestinian territory but you lack contacts. And then
when contacts are available, as hard as it was to get them, you don't
consider even talking to them because of their political views. I doubt I
can find you any contacts that are 'apolitical' given the situation between
the Israelis and the Palestinians. And I am not even asking you to talk to
someone with extreme views that might offend you, You yourself said he was a
moderate.

I am sad to say that at this point I am inclined to think that the whole
outreach into under-privileged territories effort was not genuinely
considered.

On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 1:35 PM, Harel Cain <harel.cain [at] gmail> wrote:

> Dear Muhammad,
>
> The short answer is that we never contacted Sari Nusseibeh, and we're not
> very satisfied with this situation.
>
> This is for a mixture of reasons, some of them mundane (nobody really
> picked up this specific suggestion; we were all busy; we forgot about it; we
> all assumed someone else will do it) and some of them more to the point -
> first and foremost because he is perceived, at least in the Israeli public,
> as a downright political figure, having held formal positions positions on
> the Palestinian side.
>
> Clearly he's perceived as a moderate political figure, but that is totally
> beside the point - we never meant to make Wikimania political (such as for
> example inviting politicians to speak before us), and Sari Nusseibeh is very
> much about politics.
>
> Even his affiliation with moderate/leftist organizations on the Israeli
> side of the political spectrum make this a political move in the inner
> Israeli political perspective of the conference, and we don't want to make
> Wikimania political even in this narrow sense.
>
> We are not opposed to people trying to contact him, and I hope someone like
> Dror Kamir on our part might still do it, but we are somewhat reserved about
> his specific suitability here, because of unmistakeable political
> involvement.
>
> Harel Cain
> Wikimania 2011 local team
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 10:11, Muhammad Yahia <shipmaster [at] gmail> wrote:
>
>> This is a contact I sent to this list almost a year ago. When I was asked
>> to reach out to anyone and see if there is someone interested in
>> coordinating with the WM11 team. I was told by my Palestinian-American
>> friends that this university and its dean have campuses in East Jerusalem
>> and the WB, making it easy for Israelis to contact. The dean's cv has his
>> phone and email. It would be good if he is contacted to see if he is willing
>> to help.
>>
>> http://sari.alquds.edu/cv_sari.htm
>> http://www.alquds.edu/
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Quds_University
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sari_Nusseibeh
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 7:34 AM, Asaf Bartov <abartov [at] wikimedia>wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 4:33 AM, Kim Bruning <kim [at] bruning>wrote:
>>>
>>>> The problem is that BDS (and others?) are explicitly acting against
>>>> wikimania. I'd love to hear more reports
>>>> on this. I think having a wikimania in haifa is actually going
>>>> to be beneficial to all parties. :-)
>>>>
>>>
>>> Strictly speaking, we don't actually know this to be a problem. There is
>>> no proof of the BDS campaign having dissuaded large numbers of potential
>>> attendees, especially from Arab countries. Any such potential attendees
>>> would have been dissuaded by other reasons, already discussed extensively on
>>> this and other lists, -- political climate in their countries, personal
>>> perception of attendance as implicit support of the Israeli government
>>> policy, etc..
>>>
>>> By all means go on publicizing WM2011 among Arabic speakers. Once again,
>>> the local team has made it clear it is committed to helping anyone who would
>>> like to attend. But perhaps it's time to stop pretending it is entirely up
>>> to us whether Arabic speakers would be well-represented in this Wikimania or
>>> not?
>>>
>>> Asaf
>>> --
>>> Asaf Bartov
>>> (personal opinion)
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>> Wikimania-l [at] lists
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Best Regards,
>> Muhammad Yahia
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l [at] lists
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l [at] lists
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>


--
Best Regards,
Muhammad Yahia


millosh at gmail

Jul 13, 2011, 4:43 PM

Post #13 of 29 (2162 views)
Permalink
Re: Claims by BDS / Palestinian outreach [In reply to]

On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 22:35, Harel Cain <harel.cain [at] gmail> wrote:
> The short answer is that we never contacted Sari Nusseibeh, and we're not
> very satisfied with this situation.
>
> This is for a mixture of reasons, some of them mundane (nobody really picked
> up this specific suggestion; we were all busy; we forgot about it; we all
> assumed someone else will do it) and some of them more to the point  - first
> and foremost because he is perceived, at least in the Israeli public, as a
> downright political figure, having held formal positions positions on the
> Palestinian side.
>
> Clearly he's perceived as a moderate political figure, but that is totally
> beside the point - we never meant to make Wikimania political (such as for
> example inviting politicians to speak before us), and Sari Nusseibeh is very
> much about politics.
>
> Even his affiliation with moderate/leftist organizations on the Israeli side
> of the political spectrum make this a political move in the inner Israeli
> political perspective of the conference, and we don't want to make Wikimania
> political even in this narrow sense.
>
> We are not opposed to people trying to contact him, and I hope someone like
> Dror Kamir on our part might still do it, but we are somewhat reserved about
> his specific suitability here, because of unmistakeable political
> involvement.

Harel, this Wikimania is anyway highly influenced by politics, no
matter what we want; which includes this thread. If Sari Nusseibeh is
willing to help, you should take that help. I am sure that he is a
reasonable person, who would try to avoid making possible problems to
us.

_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
Wikimania-l [at] lists
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l


shipmaster at gmail

Jul 13, 2011, 4:48 PM

Post #14 of 29 (2162 views)
Permalink
Re: Claims by BDS / Palestinian outreach [In reply to]

>
>
> Harel, this Wikimania is anyway highly influenced by politics, no
> matter what we want; which includes this thread. If Sari Nusseibeh is
> willing to help, you should take that help. I am sure that he is a
> reasonable person, who would try to avoid making possible problems to
> us.
>
>
Small Disclaimer here: I don't know the guy personally, I got his name from
contacts of contacts. Thus I can't vouch for his willingness to help. I
think there is a big chance he will be though.
--
Best Regards,
Muhammad Yahia


wikipedia at frontier

Jul 13, 2011, 5:04 PM

Post #15 of 29 (2168 views)
Permalink
Re: Claims by BDS / Palestinian outreach [In reply to]

On 7/13/2011 4:48 PM, Muhammad Yahia wrote:
>
> Harel, this Wikimania is anyway highly influenced by politics, no
> matter what we want; which includes this thread. If Sari Nusseibeh is
> willing to help, you should take that help. I am sure that he is a
> reasonable person, who would try to avoid making possible problems to
> us.
>
> Small Disclaimer here: I don't know the guy personally, I got his name
> from contacts of contacts. Thus I can't vouch for his willingness to
> help. I think there is a big chance he will be though.
Just an observation in case we do contact him - somebody should take a
look at the Wikipedia articles about him to make sure they aren't
problematic. Otherwise we might find that his willingness to help
evaporates.

--Michael Snow


harel.cain at gmail

Jul 13, 2011, 10:41 PM

Post #16 of 29 (2165 views)
Permalink
Re: Claims by BDS / Palestinian outreach [In reply to]

Again, I'm not sure everyone out there in the world is aware of and familiar
with all the political intricacies of the local situation between Israelis
and Palestinians and can judge what could easily workout and what would not.


Specifically, as I wrote, Sari Nusseibeh was both a kind of embarrassing
oversight on our part (his name came up in some single thread of discussion
a year ago, and was forgotten about), but also, in our view, not a very good
suggestion either, for the reasons I explained (in short: he's a
politician). I hope Dror Kamir, who speaks fluent Arabic, will try to engage
him in the few weeks we have left, though I don't have very high
expectations from this - his name was merely a suggestion, not based on any
real promise. Let's see.

I'm happy to say we have a couple of young Arab Israeli
attendees/volunteers, I hope this small number will expand. We also made our
utmost to try to accommodate the very few seemingly-authentic requests for
participation we got from the Middle East - from Saudi Arabia and from the
Gaza Strip, but these people simply never got back to us after a certain
point in time, despite repeated attempts to contact them.

I must say, again, that there's just so much we can do to increase
participation from among a group of people whose size is totally unknown
(apparently, there just aren't many active Wikimedians in the Middle East
who would consider going to Wikimania - *any* Wikimania, and very few of
them are Palestinian) and their willingness to participate is a mystery.

We also have a great confernece to prepare for those ~500 people out there
who are going to attend, and we've been working very hard this past year to
make sure that's exactly what we'll have. I hope we made a good job at that.
Actually, I'm sure we did.



Harel Cain
Wikimania 2011 local team

On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 02:48, Muhammad Yahia <shipmaster [at] gmail> wrote:

>
>> Harel, this Wikimania is anyway highly influenced by politics, no
>> matter what we want; which includes this thread. If Sari Nusseibeh is
>> willing to help, you should take that help. I am sure that he is a
>> reasonable person, who would try to avoid making possible problems to
>> us.
>>
>>
> Small Disclaimer here: I don't know the guy personally, I got his name from
> contacts of contacts. Thus I can't vouch for his willingness to help. I
> think there is a big chance he will be though.
> --
> Best Regards,
> Muhammad Yahia
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l [at] lists
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>


--
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.


harel.cain at gmail

Jul 14, 2011, 12:10 AM

Post #17 of 29 (2165 views)
Permalink
Re: Claims by BDS / Palestinian outreach [In reply to]

Following up on my latest mail, I'm glad to let you know that we drafted a
letter to Sari Nusseibeh and after final proofreading we hope to send it
out, hopefully today. I'll let you know if something comes out of this.

Harel Cain
Wikimania 2011 local team



On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 08:41, Harel Cain <harel.cain [at] gmail> wrote:

> Again, I'm not sure everyone out there in the world is aware of and
> familiar with all the political intricacies of the local situation between
> Israelis and Palestinians and can judge what could easily workout and what
> would not.
>
> Specifically, as I wrote, Sari Nusseibeh was both a kind of embarrassing
> oversight on our part (his name came up in some single thread of discussion
> a year ago, and was forgotten about), but also, in our view, not a very good
> suggestion either, for the reasons I explained (in short: he's a
> politician). I hope Dror Kamir, who speaks fluent Arabic, will try to engage
> him in the few weeks we have left, though I don't have very high
> expectations from this - his name was merely a suggestion, not based on any
> real promise. Let's see.
>
> I'm happy to say we have a couple of young Arab Israeli
> attendees/volunteers, I hope this small number will expand. We also made our
> utmost to try to accommodate the very few seemingly-authentic requests for
> participation we got from the Middle East - from Saudi Arabia and from the
> Gaza Strip, but these people simply never got back to us after a certain
> point in time, despite repeated attempts to contact them.
>
> I must say, again, that there's just so much we can do to increase
> participation from among a group of people whose size is totally unknown
> (apparently, there just aren't many active Wikimedians in the Middle East
> who would consider going to Wikimania - *any* Wikimania, and very few of
> them are Palestinian) and their willingness to participate is a mystery.
>
> We also have a great confernece to prepare for those ~500 people out there
> who are going to attend, and we've been working very hard this past year to
> make sure that's exactly what we'll have. I hope we made a good job at that.
> Actually, I'm sure we did.
>
>
>
>
> Harel Cain
> Wikimania 2011 local team
>
> On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 02:48, Muhammad Yahia <shipmaster [at] gmail>wrote:
>
>>
>>> Harel, this Wikimania is anyway highly influenced by politics, no
>>> matter what we want; which includes this thread. If Sari Nusseibeh is
>>> willing to help, you should take that help. I am sure that he is a
>>> reasonable person, who would try to avoid making possible problems to
>>> us.
>>>
>>>
>> Small Disclaimer here: I don't know the guy personally, I got his name
>> from contacts of contacts. Thus I can't vouch for his willingness to help. I
>> think there is a big chance he will be though.
>> --
>> Best Regards,
>> Muhammad Yahia
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l [at] lists
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
>



--
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.


werespielchequers at gmail

Jul 14, 2011, 3:53 AM

Post #18 of 29 (2163 views)
Permalink
Re: Claims by BDS / Palestinian outreach [In reply to]

Just as it is way too late to debate the venue, it is probably too
late to make much difference to the physical attendance this year
(maybe some locals with an hour or three's journey can be recruited in
the last couple of weeks, and maybe some who expressed an interest but
didn't firm up can be encouraged to come). But it is still a suitable
time to promote this as a virtual conference and I'd like to suggest
that we try and focus on that.

See http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimania_2011/Bids/Haifa#Virtual_conferencing
and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Not_The_Wikipedia_Weekly#Our_next_Skypecast

I'm hoping to hold my presentation as a Skype chat, either
simultaneously with Wikimania or otherwise.

WereSpielChequers

On 14 July 2011 08:10, Harel Cain <harel.cain [at] gmail> wrote:
> Following up on my latest mail, I'm glad to let you know that we drafted a
> letter to Sari Nusseibeh and after final proofreading we hope to send it
> out, hopefully today. I'll let you know if something comes out of this.
>
> Harel Cain
> Wikimania 2011 local team
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 08:41, Harel Cain <harel.cain [at] gmail> wrote:
>>
>> Again, I'm not sure everyone out there in the world is aware of and
>> familiar with all the political intricacies of the local situation between
>> Israelis and Palestinians and can judge what could easily workout and what
>> would not.
>>
>> Specifically, as I wrote, Sari Nusseibeh was both a kind of embarrassing
>> oversight on our part (his name came up in some single thread of discussion
>> a year ago, and was forgotten about), but also, in our view, not a very good
>> suggestion either, for the reasons I explained (in short: he's a
>> politician). I hope Dror Kamir, who speaks fluent Arabic, will try to engage
>> him in the few weeks we have left, though I don't have very high
>> expectations from this - his name was merely a suggestion, not based on any
>> real promise. Let's see.
>>
>> I'm happy to say we have a couple of young Arab Israeli
>> attendees/volunteers, I hope this small number will expand. We also made our
>> utmost to try to accommodate the very few seemingly-authentic requests for
>> participation we got from the Middle East - from Saudi Arabia and from the
>> Gaza Strip, but these people simply never got back to us after a certain
>> point in time, despite repeated attempts to contact them.
>>
>> I must say, again, that there's just so much we can do to increase
>> participation from among a group of people whose size is totally unknown
>> (apparently, there just aren't many active Wikimedians in the Middle East
>> who would consider going to Wikimania - *any* Wikimania, and very few of
>> them are Palestinian) and their willingness to participate is a mystery.
>>
>> We also have a great confernece to prepare for those ~500 people out there
>> who are going to attend, and we've been working very hard this past year to
>> make sure that's exactly what we'll have. I hope we made a good job at that.
>> Actually, I'm sure we did.
>>
>>
>>
>> Harel Cain
>> Wikimania 2011 local team
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 02:48, Muhammad Yahia <shipmaster [at] gmail>
>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Harel, this Wikimania is anyway highly influenced by politics, no
>>>> matter what we want; which includes this thread. If Sari Nusseibeh is
>>>> willing to help, you should take that help. I am sure that he is a
>>>> reasonable person, who would try to avoid making possible problems to
>>>> us.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Small Disclaimer here: I don't know the guy personally, I got his name
>>> from contacts of contacts. Thus I can't vouch for his willingness to help. I
>>> think there is a big chance he will be though.
>>> --
>>> Best Regards,
>>> Muhammad Yahia
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>> Wikimania-l [at] lists
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
>
>
>
> --
> Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l [at] lists
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>

_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
Wikimania-l [at] lists
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l


shipmaster at gmail

Jul 14, 2011, 8:50 AM

Post #19 of 29 (2152 views)
Permalink
Re: Claims by BDS / Palestinian outreach [In reply to]

Given the fact that we're less than a month away, and we're late enough if
not too late, wouldn't a phone call be faster than a letter?

On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 12:10 AM, Harel Cain <harel.cain [at] gmail> wrote:

> Following up on my latest mail, I'm glad to let you know that we drafted a
> letter to Sari Nusseibeh and after final proofreading we hope to send it
> out, hopefully today. I'll let you know if something comes out of this.
>
>
> Harel Cain
> Wikimania 2011 local team
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 08:41, Harel Cain <harel.cain [at] gmail> wrote:
>
>> Again, I'm not sure everyone out there in the world is aware of and
>> familiar with all the political intricacies of the local situation between
>> Israelis and Palestinians and can judge what could easily workout and what
>> would not.
>>
>> Specifically, as I wrote, Sari Nusseibeh was both a kind of embarrassing
>> oversight on our part (his name came up in some single thread of discussion
>> a year ago, and was forgotten about), but also, in our view, not a very good
>> suggestion either, for the reasons I explained (in short: he's a
>> politician). I hope Dror Kamir, who speaks fluent Arabic, will try to engage
>> him in the few weeks we have left, though I don't have very high
>> expectations from this - his name was merely a suggestion, not based on any
>> real promise. Let's see.
>>
>> I'm happy to say we have a couple of young Arab Israeli
>> attendees/volunteers, I hope this small number will expand. We also made our
>> utmost to try to accommodate the very few seemingly-authentic requests for
>> participation we got from the Middle East - from Saudi Arabia and from the
>> Gaza Strip, but these people simply never got back to us after a certain
>> point in time, despite repeated attempts to contact them.
>>
>> I must say, again, that there's just so much we can do to increase
>> participation from among a group of people whose size is totally unknown
>> (apparently, there just aren't many active Wikimedians in the Middle East
>> who would consider going to Wikimania - *any* Wikimania, and very few of
>> them are Palestinian) and their willingness to participate is a mystery.
>>
>> We also have a great confernece to prepare for those ~500 people out there
>> who are going to attend, and we've been working very hard this past year to
>> make sure that's exactly what we'll have. I hope we made a good job at that.
>> Actually, I'm sure we did.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Harel Cain
>> Wikimania 2011 local team
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 02:48, Muhammad Yahia <shipmaster [at] gmail>wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>> Harel, this Wikimania is anyway highly influenced by politics, no
>>>> matter what we want; which includes this thread. If Sari Nusseibeh is
>>>> willing to help, you should take that help. I am sure that he is a
>>>> reasonable person, who would try to avoid making possible problems to
>>>> us.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Small Disclaimer here: I don't know the guy personally, I got his name
>>> from contacts of contacts. Thus I can't vouch for his willingness to help. I
>>> think there is a big chance he will be though.
>>> --
>>> Best Regards,
>>> Muhammad Yahia
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>> Wikimania-l [at] lists
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l [at] lists
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>


--
Best Regards,
Muhammad Yahia


harel.cain at gmail

Jul 15, 2011, 6:46 AM

Post #20 of 29 (2141 views)
Permalink
Re: Claims by BDS / Palestinian outreach [In reply to]

It's an e-mail, not a paper letter, so the speed is the same. I'm not sure
Mr. Nusseibeh is the kind of person you can really simply call up on the
phone either.


Harel

On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 18:50, Muhammad Yahia <shipmaster [at] gmail> wrote:

> Given the fact that we're less than a month away, and we're late enough if
> not too late, wouldn't a phone call be faster than a letter?
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 12:10 AM, Harel Cain <harel.cain [at] gmail> wrote:
>
>> Following up on my latest mail, I'm glad to let you know that we drafted a
>> letter to Sari Nusseibeh and after final proofreading we hope to send it
>> out, hopefully today. I'll let you know if something comes out of this.
>>
>>
>> Harel Cain
>> Wikimania 2011 local team
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 08:41, Harel Cain <harel.cain [at] gmail> wrote:
>>
>>> Again, I'm not sure everyone out there in the world is aware of and
>>> familiar with all the political intricacies of the local situation between
>>> Israelis and Palestinians and can judge what could easily workout and what
>>> would not.
>>>
>>> Specifically, as I wrote, Sari Nusseibeh was both a kind of embarrassing
>>> oversight on our part (his name came up in some single thread of discussion
>>> a year ago, and was forgotten about), but also, in our view, not a very good
>>> suggestion either, for the reasons I explained (in short: he's a
>>> politician). I hope Dror Kamir, who speaks fluent Arabic, will try to engage
>>> him in the few weeks we have left, though I don't have very high
>>> expectations from this - his name was merely a suggestion, not based on any
>>> real promise. Let's see.
>>>
>>> I'm happy to say we have a couple of young Arab Israeli
>>> attendees/volunteers, I hope this small number will expand. We also made our
>>> utmost to try to accommodate the very few seemingly-authentic requests for
>>> participation we got from the Middle East - from Saudi Arabia and from the
>>> Gaza Strip, but these people simply never got back to us after a certain
>>> point in time, despite repeated attempts to contact them.
>>>
>>> I must say, again, that there's just so much we can do to increase
>>> participation from among a group of people whose size is totally unknown
>>> (apparently, there just aren't many active Wikimedians in the Middle East
>>> who would consider going to Wikimania - *any* Wikimania, and very few of
>>> them are Palestinian) and their willingness to participate is a mystery.
>>>
>>> We also have a great confernece to prepare for those ~500 people out
>>> there who are going to attend, and we've been working very hard this past
>>> year to make sure that's exactly what we'll have. I hope we made a good job
>>> at that. Actually, I'm sure we did.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Harel Cain
>>> Wikimania 2011 local team
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 02:48, Muhammad Yahia <shipmaster [at] gmail>wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Harel, this Wikimania is anyway highly influenced by politics, no
>>>>> matter what we want; which includes this thread. If Sari Nusseibeh is
>>>>> willing to help, you should take that help. I am sure that he is a
>>>>> reasonable person, who would try to avoid making possible problems to
>>>>> us.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Small Disclaimer here: I don't know the guy personally, I got his name
>>>> from contacts of contacts. Thus I can't vouch for his willingness to help. I
>>>> think there is a big chance he will be though.
>>>> --
>>>> Best Regards,
>>>> Muhammad Yahia
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>>> Wikimania-l [at] lists
>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l [at] lists
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Best Regards,
> Muhammad Yahia
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l [at] lists
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>


--
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.


millosh at gmail

Jul 15, 2011, 6:58 AM

Post #21 of 29 (2138 views)
Permalink
Re: Claims by BDS / Palestinian outreach [In reply to]

On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 09:10, Harel Cain <harel.cain [at] gmail> wrote:
> Following up on my latest mail, I'm glad to let you know that we drafted a
> letter to Sari Nusseibeh and after final proofreading we hope to send it
> out, hopefully today. I'll let you know if something comes out of this.

Great :)

_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
Wikimania-l [at] lists
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l


kim at bruning

Jul 19, 2011, 10:55 AM

Post #22 of 29 (2112 views)
Permalink
Re: Claims by BDS / Palestinian outreach [In reply to]

On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 08:41:16AM +0300, Harel Cain wrote:
> I must say, again, that there's just so much we can do to increase
> participation from among a group of people whose size is totally unknown
> (apparently, there just aren't many active Wikimedians in the Middle East
> who would consider going to Wikimania - *any* Wikimania, and very few of
> them are Palestinian) and their willingness to participate is a mystery.

Heh, so currently it is

place_of_residence=
(world AND NOT middle_east)
OR (israel AND NOT (west_bank OR gaza))

Correct?
Interesting. <scratches head>

Are we getting our famous Steward-From-Iran this year, at least?

sincerely,
Kim Bruning

--
[Non-pgp mail clients may show pgp-signature as attachment]
gpg (www.gnupg.org) Fingerprint for key FEF9DD72
5ED6 E215 73EE AD84 E03A 01C5 94AC 7B0E FEF9 DD72

_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
Wikimania-l [at] lists
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l


kim at bruning

Jul 19, 2011, 11:22 AM

Post #23 of 29 (2116 views)
Permalink
Re: Claims by BDS / Palestinian outreach [In reply to]

On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 07:55:51PM +0200, Kim Bruning wrote:
> place_of_residence=
> (world AND NOT middle_east)
> OR (israel AND NOT (west_bank OR gaza))

For people who have trouble deciphering SQL-ish language
(
small letters = sets
AND = Intersection
OR = Union
AND NOT=Intersection
)

For people who Just Need A Picture, you can also express this as a venn-like
diagram:

http://bruning.xs4all.nl/~kim/People_who_are_coming_to_wikimania.svg


is this indeed correct?

sincerely,
Kim Bruning


--
[Non-pgp mail clients may show pgp-signature as attachment]
gpg (www.gnupg.org) Fingerprint for key FEF9DD72
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_______________________________________________
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kim at bruning

Jul 19, 2011, 12:16 PM

Post #24 of 29 (2113 views)
Permalink
Re: Claims by BDS / Palestinian outreach [In reply to]

Naturally, it's not my intention to be unfair to the organizers. I know
you're doing your best. I do want to know what I'm getting into when I
go to speak somewhere though!

(in case you're wondering:"Everything you know about Wikipedia is
wrong". Saturday, 09:00, together with mindspillage, ironholds, and
fluffernutter . It's going to be fun! Are you coming? :-) )

I think our main conclusion at the end of this will be that we need to
do more outreach in arab, north african, and west-asian countries.

On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 10:39:59PM +0300, Harel Cain wrote:
> In fact, it would be really interesting to see just how many people from the
> Arab Middle East attended any previous Wikimania. For 2008, please check how
> many attendees came from countries that were not Egypt.

That is definitely a good idea. I'd try to generate statistics and graphs,
if someone can help me dig up existing attendence figures/records.

(I'd sign a lightweight NDA if required to maintain attendee
confidentiality.)

(Note that the content and format of the attendee databases will
determine whether it is viable to generate said statistics in a
reasonable amount of time.)

> I attended Wikimania in 2007 (Taipei) and 2010 (Gdansk) and I recall just a
> handful of attendees from Arab countries in each.

This is true by my recollection.

> I think those numbers will be teaching, and will put this discussion in the
> true perspective it deserves.

Well, I think we've learned that we need to do more outreach in arab
countries, and that possibly we need something other than wikimania.

This does not make wikimania useless however; wikimania serves a lot of
other functions besides outreach, of course!

sincerely,
Kim Bruning



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harel.cain at gmail

Jul 19, 2011, 12:31 PM

Post #25 of 29 (2110 views)
Permalink
Re: Claims by BDS / Palestinian outreach [In reply to]

As to whether this is correct or not, we'll know in a couple of weeks. I
think it's not 100% correct (read my previous mails, and some things still
brewing too), and I think it's mainly unfair to us organizers.

You could have drawn the same drawing for previous years and the Middle East
part would not look much different at all.


Harel Cain
Wikimania 2011 local team

On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 21:22, Kim Bruning <kim [at] bruning> wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 07:55:51PM +0200, Kim Bruning wrote:
> > place_of_residence=
> > (world AND NOT middle_east)
> > OR (israel AND NOT (west_bank OR gaza))
>
> For people who have trouble deciphering SQL-ish language
> (
> small letters = sets
> AND = Intersection
> OR = Union
> AND NOT=Intersection
> )
>
> For people who Just Need A Picture, you can also express this as a
> venn-like
> diagram:
>
> http://bruning.xs4all.nl/~kim/People_who_are_coming_to_wikimania.svg
>
>
> is this indeed correct?
>
> sincerely,
> Kim Bruning
>
>
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