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Claims by BDS

 

 

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kim at bruning

Jun 28, 2011, 10:51 AM

Post #1 of 31 (592 views)
Permalink
Claims by BDS

Hello,

BDS is telling people that certain people (gaza, west bank) are being excluded or likely to be excluded from wikimania [1]

I'm pretty sure that's not going to be entirely true. I'd like to tell these BDS
people off for spreading FUD.

Even so, I'd better be sure I'm telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
;-)

Is there anyone who currently wants to come to wikimania, but definitely won't be able
to come due to issues with permit/visa?

sincerely,
Kim Bruning

[1]
http://www.alternativenews.org/english/index.php/topics/economy-of-the-occupation/3439-bds-action-tell-wikimedia-not-to-hold-2011-annual-conference-in-israel-

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kim at bruning

Jun 28, 2011, 11:33 AM

Post #2 of 31 (591 views)
Permalink
Re: Claims by BDS [In reply to]

On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 10:05:24PM +0300, Harel Cain wrote:
> We have not a single case we can report of
> anyone from the Middle East wanting to come to Wikimania but being prevented
> by Israel from doing so.

So we'll have plenty of folks from Gaza too? Cool. :-)

> BTW all of these discussions were already held in other guises on this list
> and on wikimania-planning-l and foundation-l in the last summer and autumn -
> just search the archives :)

I thought I'd caught the gist of that, yeah. I'm just double-checking to be sure I
didn't miss something important! :-)


sincerely,
Kim Bruning


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harel.cain at gmail

Jun 28, 2011, 12:05 PM

Post #3 of 31 (591 views)
Permalink
Re: Claims by BDS [In reply to]

I'm currently traveling so I'll just post a short answer and let someone
else from the local team carry this on:

The short answer is that apart from one guy from the Gaza strip who was in
contact with us, and for whom we bended over backwards to try to find
creative solutions to bring him to Israel, and later (rather quickly) just
disappeared off our radars, we have not a single case we can report of
anyone from the Middle East wanting to come to Wikimania but being prevented
by Israel from doing so. There were some bogus applications like any
Wikimania has, nothing that looks like a real participant wanting to join.

BTW all of these discussions were already held in other guises on this list
and on wikimania-planning-l and foundation-l in the last summer and autumn -
just search the archives :)


Harel Cain
Wikimania 2011 local team


On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 20:51, Kim Bruning <kim [at] bruning> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> BDS is telling people that certain people (gaza, west bank) are being
> excluded or likely to be excluded from wikimania [1]
>
> I'm pretty sure that's not going to be entirely true. I'd like to tell
> these BDS
> people off for spreading FUD.
>
> Even so, I'd better be sure I'm telling the truth, the whole truth, and
> nothing but
> ;-)
>
> Is there anyone who currently wants to come to wikimania, but definitely
> won't be able
> to come due to issues with permit/visa?
>
> sincerely,
> Kim Bruning
>
> [1]
>
> http://www.alternativenews.org/english/index.php/topics/economy-of-the-occupation/3439-bds-action-tell-wikimedia-not-to-hold-2011-annual-conference-in-israel-
>
> --
> [Non-pgp mail clients may show pgp-signature as attachment]
> gpg (www.gnupg.org) Fingerprint for key FEF9DD72
> 5ED6 E215 73EE AD84 E03A 01C5 94AC 7B0E FEF9 DD72
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l [at] lists
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>



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kim at bruning

Jun 28, 2011, 12:17 PM

Post #4 of 31 (591 views)
Permalink
Re: Claims by BDS [In reply to]

On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 10:46:38PM +0300, Amir E. Aharoni wrote:
> 2011/6/28 Kim Bruning <kim [at] bruning>
> > Is there anyone who currently wants to come to wikimania, but definitely won't be able
> > to come due to issues with permit/visa?
>
> Except doing our best to help the Palestinians who actually register
> to get the needed permits and to arrive, we also did our best to reach
> out to potential Palestinian attendees: We sent dozens of emails to
> Palestinian Wikipedians, software developers, activists of free
> culture and education, etc., and until now we got practically no reply
> from them, too, but we are still hopeful.

So far, there are 0 Palestinians definitely coming ?

sincerely,
Kim Bruning


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amir.aharoni at mail

Jun 28, 2011, 12:46 PM

Post #5 of 31 (594 views)
Permalink
Re: Claims by BDS [In reply to]

2011/6/28 Kim Bruning <kim [at] bruning>
> Is there anyone who currently wants to come to wikimania, but definitely won't be able
> to come due to issues with permit/visa?

Indeed, Palestinians who live in the West Bank or in Gaza Strip have
to obtain a permit to enter Israel. This permit is not very different
from a Visa that participants from many other countries need to
obtain. We are providing a lot of assistance to a great number of
people who need Visas, permits, special travel and accommodation
arrangements, etc.

We cannot reveal the personal details of any attendee. What I can tell
is that until now there was only one serious Palestinian person who
asked to attend (not counting the registrations which are bogus beyond
any doubt). We sent that person all the needed information about
getting the permit and we are in contact with the relevant government
authorities about this matter. Unfortunately, we haven't heard from
that person since.

Except doing our best to help the Palestinians who actually register
to get the needed permits and to arrive, we also did our best to reach
out to potential Palestinian attendees: We sent dozens of emails to
Palestinian Wikipedians, software developers, activists of free
culture and education, etc., and until now we got practically no reply
from them, too, but we are still hopeful.

To sum things up: At this time we cannot, unfortunately, be sure that
Wikimania 2011 will be bustling with Palestinian Wikipedians, but we
also didn't get any complaints from someone who actually registered,
applied for a permit and was denied.

--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
"We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace." - T. Moore

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kim at bruning

Jun 28, 2011, 12:53 PM

Post #6 of 31 (592 views)
Permalink
Re: Claims by BDS [In reply to]

On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 11:20:11PM +0300, Harel Cain wrote:
> Rather read it as "we looked for Palestinian wikimedians all over the place
> for over a year; apparently they're not very easy to find".

Ok, that's definitely a very different narrative than either BDS's claims,
or what I was hoping myself (to wit, that local people just tend to register pretty
late, because they don't need to plan ahead as far.)

<scratches head>

Thanks for answering my questions so far!

sincerely,
Kim Bruning

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harel.cain at gmail

Jun 28, 2011, 1:20 PM

Post #7 of 31 (592 views)
Permalink
Re: Claims by BDS [In reply to]

That is one way of putting it. But don't read it as saying "there are
hundreds of Palestinian wikimedians out there, who just refuse to make it to
Wikimania".

Rather read it as "we looked for Palestinian wikimedians all over the place
for over a year; apparently they're not very easy to find".

The claim that Wikimania in Haifa excludes people from joining is just great
for political tweets, but nothing more. For many more details you're more
than welcome to do a quick search of the foundation-l archives from the
second of half of 2010.

BTW regarding those tweets about the East Jerusalem development company:
while they are listed as a sponsor on our website, their sponsorship is just
free entrance to some of the sites in the Jerusalem tour we're offering
(among other tours) on the Sunday just after the conference (they operate
the sites and are giving us free tickets). That brings tourists (our
Wikimania guests!) to Jerusalem (and to its mostly visited tourist
attractions which are in the old part of the city). I think the local
(Palestinian) merchants should be very happy with this tourism (they are).
Those tweets are just political bashing without any real fact checking.



Harel

On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 22:17, Kim Bruning <kim [at] bruning> wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 10:46:38PM +0300, Amir E. Aharoni wrote:
> > 2011/6/28 Kim Bruning <kim [at] bruning>
> > > Is there anyone who currently wants to come to wikimania, but
> definitely won't be able
> > > to come due to issues with permit/visa?
> >
> > Except doing our best to help the Palestinians who actually register
> > to get the needed permits and to arrive, we also did our best to reach
> > out to potential Palestinian attendees: We sent dozens of emails to
> > Palestinian Wikipedians, software developers, activists of free
> > culture and education, etc., and until now we got practically no reply
> > from them, too, but we are still hopeful.
>
> So far, there are 0 Palestinians definitely coming ?
>
> sincerely,
> Kim Bruning
>
>
> --
> [Non-pgp mail clients may show pgp-signature as attachment]
> gpg (www.gnupg.org) Fingerprint for key FEF9DD72
> 5ED6 E215 73EE AD84 E03A 01C5 94AC 7B0E FEF9 DD72
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l [at] lists
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>



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millosh at gmail

Jun 28, 2011, 1:27 PM

Post #8 of 31 (591 views)
Permalink
Re: Claims by BDS [In reply to]

From the brighter side: it is confirmed that no Palestinian will have
problems with visa.

On Jun 28, 2011 10:05 PM, "Kim Bruning" <kim [at] bruning> wrote:

On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 10:46:38PM +0300, Amir E. Aharoni wrote:
> 2011/6/28 Kim Bruning <kim [at] brunin

> Except doing our best to help the Palestinians who actually register
> to get the needed permits a...
So far, there are 0 Palestinians definitely coming ?

sincerely,
Kim Bruning



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merlands at uc

Jun 28, 2011, 1:32 PM

Post #9 of 31 (593 views)
Permalink
Re: Claims by BDS [In reply to]

Hi everybody,
This a good way to discuss topics, but is there any chance for me not to get this emails? I'm not participating in this Wikimania (at least not this time) neither I am in the committee of organisation.
Thanks a lot.

Matthias Erlandsen
Estudiante de Comunicacin Social / Periodismo
Pontificia Universidad Catlica de Chile
Blackberry PIN: 21E3D0DD
Cel: +56 (9) 8218 5055 - Chile
Mob: +1 (416) 800 1619 #974 - Canada
Mob: +1 (646) 328 1096 #844 - USA
@matterlandsen
http://www.matterlandsen.cl/

By not printing this email you've helped save paper, ink, and millions of trees.
No imprimas este mensaje, as estars ahorrando papel, tinta, y millones de rboles.
Sent from my BlackBerry wireless device

-----Original Message-----
From: Milos Rancic <millosh [at] gmail>
Sender: wikimania-l-bounces [at] lists
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 22:27:21
To: Wikimania general list (open subscription)<wikimania-l [at] lists>
Reply-To: "Wikimania general list \(open subscription\)"
<wikimania-l [at] lists>
Subject: Re: [Wikimania-l] Claims by BDS

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harel.cain at gmail

Jun 28, 2011, 1:33 PM

Post #10 of 31 (595 views)
Permalink
Re: Claims by BDS [In reply to]

Nobody forces you to read this mailing list - you can just temporarily
disable getting any e-mails (expect hundreds of them in the days before
Wikimania) or leave the list altogether.


Harel

On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 23:32, Matthias Erlandsen <merlands [at] uc> wrote:

> Hi everybody,
> This a good way to discuss topics, but is there any chance for me not to
> get this emails? I'm not participating in this Wikimania (at least not this
> time) neither I am in the committee of organisation.
> Thanks a lot.
>
> Matthias Erlandsen
> Estudiante de Comunicacin Social / Periodismo
> Pontificia Universidad Catlica de Chile
> Blackberry PIN: 21E3D0DD
> Cel: +56 (9) 8218 5055 - Chile
> Mob: +1 (416) 800 1619 #974 - Canada
> Mob: +1 (646) 328 1096 #844 - USA
> @matterlandsen
> http://www.matterlandsen.cl/
>
> By not printing this email you've helped save paper, ink, and millions of
> trees.
> No imprimas este mensaje, as estars ahorrando papel, tinta, y millones de
> rboles.
> Sent from my BlackBerry wireless device
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Milos Rancic <millosh [at] gmail>
> Sender: wikimania-l-bounces [at] lists
> Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 22:27:21
> To: Wikimania general list (open subscription)<
> wikimania-l [at] lists>
> Reply-To: "Wikimania general list \(open subscription\)"
> <wikimania-l [at] lists>
> Subject: Re: [Wikimania-l] Claims by BDS
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l [at] lists
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l [at] lists
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>



--
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asaf.bartov at gmail

Jun 28, 2011, 1:56 PM

Post #11 of 31 (596 views)
Permalink
Re: Claims by BDS [In reply to]

On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 1:33 PM, Harel Cain <harel.cain [at] gmail> wrote:

> Nobody forces you to read this mailing list - you can just temporarily
> disable getting any e-mails (expect hundreds of them in the days before
> Wikimania) or leave the list altogether.
>

What Harel meant to say is: "take a look at the very bottom of this and
every other posting on this list. Click the link that says:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l and Unsubscribe.

Cheers,

Asaf

--
Asaf Bartov <asaf.bartov [at] gmail>


werespielchequers at gmail

Jun 28, 2011, 2:01 PM

Post #12 of 31 (592 views)
Permalink
Re: Claims by BDS [In reply to]

I don't remember meeting any Palestinians at the last two Wikimanias
either, so if there are no Palestinians coming despite the geography
then that is unfortunate. But if we can honestly say that no
Palestinians tried to come but were unable to get visas then I am
somewhat reassured, and thanks for trying to find some.

However I am worried at the attendance from the wider Islamic world,
and of course attendance in general. How does this compare to previous
years?

WereSpielChequers


On 28 June 2011 20:53, Kim Bruning <kim [at] bruning> wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 11:20:11PM +0300, Harel Cain wrote:
>> Rather read it as "we looked for Palestinian wikimedians all over the place
>> for over a year; apparently they're not very easy to find".
>
> Ok, that's definitely a very different narrative than either BDS's claims,
> or what I was hoping myself (to wit, that local people just tend to register pretty
> late, because they don't need to plan ahead as far.)
>
> <scratches head>
>
> Thanks for answering my questions so far!
>
> sincerely,
> Kim Bruning
>
> --
> [Non-pgp mail clients may show pgp-signature as attachment]
> gpg (www.gnupg.org) Fingerprint for key FEF9DD72
> 5ED6 E215 73EE AD84 E03A 01C5 94AC 7B0E FEF9 DD72
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l [at] lists
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>

_______________________________________________
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merlands at uc

Jun 28, 2011, 2:16 PM

Post #13 of 31 (595 views)
Permalink
Re: Claims by BDS [In reply to]

Thank you guys.
Since I'm on a Blackberry and 3G is really slow, I wasn't able to click on it, neither I have realized about that option before.
Greetings.

Matthias Erlandsen
Estudiante de Comunicacin Social / Periodismo
Pontificia Universidad Catlica de Chile
Blackberry PIN: 21E3D0DD
Cel: +56 (9) 8218 5055 - Chile
Mob: +1 (416) 800 1619 #974 - Canada
Mob: +1 (646) 328 1096 #844 - USA
@matterlandsen
http://www.matterlandsen.cl/

By not printing this email you've helped save paper, ink, and millions of trees.
No imprimas este mensaje, as estars ahorrando papel, tinta, y millones de rboles.
Sent from my BlackBerry wireless device

-----Original Message-----
From: Asaf Bartov <asaf.bartov [at] gmail>
Sender: wikimania-l-bounces [at] lists
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 13:56:06
To: Wikimania general list (open subscription)<wikimania-l [at] lists>
Reply-To: "Wikimania general list \(open subscription\)"
<wikimania-l [at] lists>
Subject: Re: [Wikimania-l] Claims by BDS

_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
Wikimania-l [at] lists
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

_______________________________________________
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aphaia at gmail

Jun 28, 2011, 4:24 PM

Post #14 of 31 (592 views)
Permalink
Re: Claims by BDS [In reply to]

Hello,

I don't recall any Arabic participants in Boston, in Taiwan either
(they decided not to show from their own reason), many in Alexandria
but not so many from outside of Egypt, no Palestinians but two
Israelis, one Syrian and one Irani (our steward) ...... iirc there
were some Jordanian somewhere, iirc in several Wikimanias but not sure
in which ones.

And from time to time, as Transcom member, I heard there were no or
very a little Palestinian contributors to Arabic Wikipedia. It is sad
we haven't successful to get them in Wikimedia universe, and there
will be some reasons but I presume it'll be more complicated than a
certain organization hinders or whatever.

Cheers,

On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 6:01 AM, WereSpielChequers
<werespielchequers [at] gmail> wrote:
> I don't remember meeting any Palestinians at the last two Wikimanias
> either, so if there are no Palestinians coming despite the geography
> then that is unfortunate. But if we can honestly say that no
> Palestinians tried to come but were unable to get visas then I am
> somewhat reassured, and thanks for trying to find some.
>
> However I am worried at the attendance from the wider Islamic world,
> and of course attendance in general. How does this compare to previous
> years?
>
> WereSpielChequers
>
>
> On 28 June 2011 20:53, Kim Bruning <kim [at] bruning> wrote:
>> On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 11:20:11PM +0300, Harel Cain wrote:
>>> Rather read it as "we looked for Palestinian wikimedians all over the place
>>> for over a year; apparently they're not very easy to find".
>>
>> Ok, that's definitely a very different narrative than either BDS's claims,
>> or what I was hoping myself (to wit, that local people just tend to register pretty
>> late, because they don't need to plan ahead as far.)
>>
>> <scratches head>
>>
>> Thanks for answering my questions so far!
>>
>> sincerely,
>>        Kim Bruning
>>
>> --
>> [Non-pgp mail clients may show pgp-signature as attachment]
>> gpg (www.gnupg.org) Fingerprint for key  FEF9DD72
>> 5ED6 E215 73EE AD84 E03A  01C5 94AC 7B0E FEF9 DD72
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l [at] lists
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l [at] lists
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>



--
KIZU Naoko / 木津尚子
member of Wikimedians in Kansai  / 関西ウィキメディアユーザ会 http://kansai.wikimedia.jp

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aphaia at gmail

Jun 28, 2011, 4:25 PM

Post #15 of 31 (595 views)
Permalink
Re: Claims by BDS [In reply to]

Oops I forgot to insert some words. Let me correct:

On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 8:24 AM, KIZU Naoko <aphaia [at] gmail> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I don't recall any Arabic participants in Boston, in Taiwan either
> (they decided not to show from their own reason), many in Alexandria
> but not so many from outside of Egypt, no Palestinians but two
> Israelis,
in Gdansk,
one Syrian and one Irani (our steward) ...... iirc there
> were some Jordanian somewhere, iirc in several Wikimanias but not sure
> in which ones.
>
> And from time to time, as Transcom member, I heard there were no or
> very a little Palestinian contributors to Arabic Wikipedia. It is sad
> we haven't successful to get them in Wikimedia universe, and there
> will be some reasons but I presume it'll be more complicated than a
> certain organization hinders or whatever.
>
> Cheers,
>
> On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 6:01 AM, WereSpielChequers
> <werespielchequers [at] gmail> wrote:
>> I don't remember meeting any Palestinians at the last two Wikimanias
>> either, so if there are no Palestinians coming despite the geography
>> then that is unfortunate. But if we can honestly say that no
>> Palestinians tried to come but were unable to get visas then I am
>> somewhat reassured, and thanks for trying to find some.
>>
>> However I am worried at the attendance from the wider Islamic world,
>> and of course attendance in general. How does this compare to previous
>> years?
>>
>> WereSpielChequers
>>
>>
>> On 28 June 2011 20:53, Kim Bruning <kim [at] bruning> wrote:
>>> On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 11:20:11PM +0300, Harel Cain wrote:
>>>> Rather read it as "we looked for Palestinian wikimedians all over the place
>>>> for over a year; apparently they're not very easy to find".
>>>
>>> Ok, that's definitely a very different narrative than either BDS's claims,
>>> or what I was hoping myself (to wit, that local people just tend to register pretty
>>> late, because they don't need to plan ahead as far.)
>>>
>>> <scratches head>
>>>
>>> Thanks for answering my questions so far!
>>>
>>> sincerely,
>>> Kim Bruning
>>>
>>> --
>>> [Non-pgp mail clients may show pgp-signature as attachment]
>>> gpg (www.gnupg.org) Fingerprint for key FEF9DD72
>>> 5ED6 E215 73EE AD84 E03A 01C5 94AC 7B0E FEF9 DD72
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>> Wikimania-l [at] lists
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l [at] lists
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>
>
>
> --
> KIZU Naoko / $BLZDE>0;R(B
> member of Wikimedians in Kansai / $B4X@>%&%#%-%a%G%#%"%f!<%62q(B http://kansai.wikimedia.jp
>



--
KIZU Naoko / $BLZDE>0;R(B
member of Wikimedians in Kansai / $B4X@>%&%#%-%a%G%#%"%f!<%62q(B http://kansai.wikimedia.jp

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werespielchequers at gmail

Jun 28, 2011, 11:51 PM

Post #16 of 31 (596 views)
Permalink
Re: Claims by BDS [In reply to]

I'm a great believer in the theory that Wikipedia participation in any
particular country is in large part a function of the Internet access
there. So countries like North Korea that blcck the Internet will be
holes in our participation, as will be countries that block Wikipedia.
Elsewhere it depends partly on the amount of free and fast access to
the Internet as opposed to slow access and people who pay per mb
rather than per month; and partly on the local speed of accessing
Wikipedia - excellent if you are connected to a part of the Internet
that has a good connection to Florida, pretty good if you are close to
the squid servers in Amsterdam, very slow in much of the global south.

Which is a very long way of asking if anyone knows what Internet and
specifically Wikipedia access is like in Gaza and the Westbank and
whether there are any Government filters in place. There is not much
point arguing that israel would give visas to Palestinian wikimedians
if it turns out that the siege of Gaza or the wall partitioning the
West bank included Israeli restrictions on Internet access that
prevented their being Palestinian Wikimedians..... conversely if Hamas
bans Wikipedia in Gaza then it wouldn't matter whether Wikimania was
in Haifa, Mecca or Port Stanley, there still wouldn't be any
Wikimedians coming from Gaza.

WereSpielChequers

2011/6/29 KIZU Naoko <aphaia [at] gmail>:
> Oops I forgot to insert some words. Let me correct:
>
> On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 8:24 AM, KIZU Naoko <aphaia [at] gmail> wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> I don't recall any Arabic participants in Boston, in Taiwan either
>> (they decided not to show from their own reason), many in Alexandria
>> but not so many from outside of Egypt, no Palestinians but two
>> Israelis,
> in Gdansk,
> one Syrian and one Irani (our steward) ...... iirc there
>> were some Jordanian somewhere, iirc in several Wikimanias but not sure
>> in which ones.
>>
>> And from time to time, as Transcom member, I heard there were no or
>> very a little Palestinian contributors to Arabic Wikipedia. It is sad
>> we haven't successful to get them in Wikimedia universe, and there
>> will be some reasons but I presume it'll be more complicated than a
>> certain organization hinders or whatever.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 6:01 AM, WereSpielChequers
>> <werespielchequers [at] gmail> wrote:
>>> I don't remember meeting any Palestinians at the last two Wikimanias
>>> either, so if there are no Palestinians coming despite the geography
>>> then that is unfortunate. But if we can honestly say that no
>>> Palestinians tried to come but were unable to get visas then I am
>>> somewhat reassured, and thanks for trying to find some.
>>>
>>> However I am worried at the attendance from the wider Islamic world,
>>> and of course attendance in general. How does this compare to previous
>>> years?
>>>
>>> WereSpielChequers
>>>
>>>
>>> On 28 June 2011 20:53, Kim Bruning <kim [at] bruning> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 11:20:11PM +0300, Harel Cain wrote:
>>>>> Rather read it as "we looked for Palestinian wikimedians all over the place
>>>>> for over a year; apparently they're not very easy to find".
>>>>
>>>> Ok, that's definitely a very different narrative than either BDS's claims,
>>>> or what I was hoping myself (to wit, that local people just tend to register pretty
>>>> late, because they don't need to plan ahead as far.)
>>>>
>>>> <scratches head>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for answering my questions so far!
>>>>
>>>> sincerely,
>>>> Kim Bruning
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> [Non-pgp mail clients may show pgp-signature as attachment]
>>>> gpg (www.gnupg.org) Fingerprint for key FEF9DD72
>>>> 5ED6 E215 73EE AD84 E03A 01C5 94AC 7B0E FEF9 DD72
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>>> Wikimania-l [at] lists
>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>> Wikimania-l [at] lists
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> KIZU Naoko / $BLZDE>0;R(B
>> member of Wikimedians in Kansai / $B4X@>%&%#%-%a%G%#%"%f!<%62q(B http://kansai.wikimedia.jp
>>
>
>
>
> --
> KIZU Naoko / $BLZDE>0;R(B
> member of Wikimedians in Kansai / $B4X@>%&%#%-%a%G%#%"%f!<%62q(B http://kansai.wikimedia.jp
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l [at] lists
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>

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amir.aharoni at mail

Jun 29, 2011, 12:23 AM

Post #17 of 31 (592 views)
Permalink
Re: Claims by BDS [In reply to]

2011/6/29 WereSpielChequers <werespielchequers [at] gmail>:
> Which is a very long way of asking if anyone knows what Internet and
> specifically Wikipedia access is like in Gaza and the Westbank and
> whether there are any Government filters in place.

No, and i even have a source:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6176691.stm
(It's from 2006, but to the best of my knowledge not much changed since then.)

I don't have precise details about the Palestinian Internet
infrastructure, but my wild guess would be that it is more or less
shared with the Israeli one. FWIW, the Twitter hashtags #paltweets and
#palgeeks (!) are very frequently used. So i daresay that in terms of
Internet access, Palestine is no North Korea.

I don't have precise measurements of popularity of Palestinians'
Wikipedia participation. It's not zero - there is a considerable
number of user pages in the Arab Wikipedia with userboxes that say
"this user lives in Israel" or "this user lives in Palestine"; at
least some of them actually demonstrated it in their edits (i can read
Arabic a little). I emailed all of them and got no reply.

--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
"We're living in pieces,
 I want to live in peace." - T. Moore

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jayvdb at gmail

Jun 29, 2011, 12:39 AM

Post #18 of 31 (590 views)
Permalink
Re: Claims by BDS [In reply to]

On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 5:23 PM, Amir E. Aharoni
<amir.aharoni [at] mail> wrote:
> 2011/6/29 WereSpielChequers <werespielchequers [at] gmail>:
>> Which is a very long way of asking if anyone knows what Internet and
>> specifically Wikipedia access is like in Gaza and the Westbank and
>> whether there are any Government filters in place.
>
> No, and i even have a source:
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6176691.stm
> (It's from 2006, but to the best of my knowledge not much changed since then.)
>
> I don't have precise details about the Palestinian Internet
> infrastructure, but my wild guess would be that it is more or less
> shared with the Israeli one.

There is no article [[Internet in Palestine]]. ;-( see navbox on
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_in_Israel#Other

> FWIW, the Twitter hashtags #paltweets and
> #palgeeks (!) are very frequently used. So i daresay that in terms of
> Internet access, Palestine is no North Korea.

It is listed under

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_by_country#Substantial_censorship

but even that says it is unfiltered.

> I don't have precise measurements of popularity of Palestinians'
> Wikipedia participation. It's not zero - there is a considerable
> number of user pages in the Arab Wikipedia with userboxes that say
> "this user lives in Israel" or "this user lives in Palestine"; at
> least some of them actually demonstrated it in their edits (i can read
> Arabic a little). I emailed all of them and got no reply.

Have you try reaching the people in

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Wikipedians_in_Palestine

?

--
John Vandenberg

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amir.aharoni at mail

Jun 29, 2011, 1:14 AM

Post #19 of 31 (592 views)
Permalink
Re: Claims by BDS [In reply to]

2011/6/29 John Vandenberg <jayvdb [at] gmail>:
>> I don't have precise measurements of popularity of Palestinians'
>> Wikipedia participation. It's not zero - there is a considerable
>> number of user pages in the Arab Wikipedia with userboxes that say
>> "this user lives in Israel" or "this user lives in Palestine"; at
>> least some of them actually demonstrated it in their edits (i can read
>> Arabic a little). I emailed all of them and got no reply.
>
> Have you try reaching the people in
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Wikipedians_in_Palestine
>
> ?

Yes, some of them, but i'll try a few more. Thanks for poking.

--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
"We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace." - T. Moore

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aphaia at gmail

Jun 29, 2011, 2:13 AM

Post #20 of 31 (596 views)
Permalink
Re: Claims by BDS [In reply to]

Hello, can we see each other in Haifa again? Just curious.

And as others said, Palestinians have Internet access. I can assure
you from my personal experiences ... After Wikimania2007 I met a group
of pilgrims from Palestine. They spoke Arabic and were Eastern
orthodox faithfuls. They called themselves "Isreaeli", when I asked
them who they were. Unfortunately I failed the actual chance, we had
promised to exchange email addresses on our pilgrimage to the summit
of Mt. Sinai and they had knew Wikipedia.

Cheers,



2011/6/29 WereSpielChequers <werespielchequers [at] gmail>:
> I'm a great believer in the theory that Wikipedia participation in any
> particular country is in large part a function of the Internet access
> there. So countries like North Korea that blcck the Internet will be
> holes in our participation, as will be countries that block Wikipedia.
> Elsewhere it depends partly on the amount of free and fast access to
> the Internet as opposed to slow access and people who pay per mb
> rather than per month; and partly on the local speed of accessing
> Wikipedia - excellent if you are connected to a part of the Internet
> that has a good connection to Florida, pretty good if you are close to
> the squid servers in Amsterdam, very slow in much of the global south.
>
> Which is a very long way of asking if anyone knows what Internet and
> specifically Wikipedia access is like in Gaza and the Westbank and
> whether there are any Government filters in place. There is not much
> point arguing that israel would give visas to Palestinian wikimedians
> if it turns out that the siege of Gaza or the wall partitioning the
> West bank included Israeli restrictions on Internet access that
> prevented their being Palestinian Wikimedians..... conversely if Hamas
> bans Wikipedia in Gaza then it wouldn't matter whether Wikimania was
> in Haifa, Mecca or Port Stanley, there still wouldn't be any
> Wikimedians coming from Gaza.
>
> WereSpielChequers
>
> 2011/6/29 KIZU Naoko <aphaia [at] gmail>:
>> Oops I forgot to insert some words. Let me correct:
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 8:24 AM, KIZU Naoko <aphaia [at] gmail> wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> I don't recall any Arabic participants in Boston, in Taiwan either
>>> (they decided not to show from their own reason), many in Alexandria
>>> but not so many from outside of Egypt, no Palestinians but two
>>> Israelis,
>> in Gdansk,
>> one Syrian and one Irani (our steward) ...... iirc there
>>> were some Jordanian somewhere, iirc in several Wikimanias but not sure
>>> in which ones.
>>>
>>> And from time to time, as Transcom member, I heard there were no or
>>> very a little Palestinian contributors to Arabic Wikipedia. It is sad
>>> we haven't successful to get them in Wikimedia universe, and there
>>> will be some reasons but I presume it'll be more complicated than a
>>> certain organization hinders or whatever.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 6:01 AM, WereSpielChequers
>>> <werespielchequers [at] gmail> wrote:
>>>> I don't remember meeting any Palestinians at the last two Wikimanias
>>>> either, so if there are no Palestinians coming despite the geography
>>>> then that is unfortunate. But if we can honestly say that no
>>>> Palestinians tried to come but were unable to get visas then I am
>>>> somewhat reassured, and thanks for trying to find some.
>>>>
>>>> However I am worried at the attendance from the wider Islamic world,
>>>> and of course attendance in general. How does this compare to previous
>>>> years?
>>>>
>>>> WereSpielChequers
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 28 June 2011 20:53, Kim Bruning <kim [at] bruning> wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 11:20:11PM +0300, Harel Cain wrote:
>>>>>> Rather read it as "we looked for Palestinian wikimedians all over the place
>>>>>> for over a year; apparently they're not very easy to find".
>>>>>
>>>>> Ok, that's definitely a very different narrative than either BDS's claims,
>>>>> or what I was hoping myself (to wit, that local people just tend to register pretty
>>>>> late, because they don't need to plan ahead as far.)
>>>>>
>>>>> <scratches head>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for answering my questions so far!
>>>>>
>>>>> sincerely,
>>>>> Kim Bruning
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> [Non-pgp mail clients may show pgp-signature as attachment]
>>>>> gpg (www.gnupg.org) Fingerprint for key FEF9DD72
>>>>> 5ED6 E215 73EE AD84 E03A 01C5 94AC 7B0E FEF9 DD72
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>>>> Wikimania-l [at] lists
>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>>> Wikimania-l [at] lists
>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> KIZU Naoko / $BLZDE>0;R(B
>>> member of Wikimedians in Kansai / $B4X@>%&%#%-%a%G%#%"%f!<%62q(B http://kansai.wikimedia.jp
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> KIZU Naoko / $BLZDE>0;R(B
>> member of Wikimedians in Kansai / $B4X@>%&%#%-%a%G%#%"%f!<%62q(B http://kansai.wikimedia.jp
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l [at] lists
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l [at] lists
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>



--
KIZU Naoko / $BLZDE>0;R(B
member of Wikimedians in Kansai / $B4X@>%&%#%-%a%G%#%"%f!<%62q(B http://kansai.wikimedia.jp

_______________________________________________
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dror1975 at icqmail

Jun 29, 2011, 3:13 AM

Post #21 of 31 (593 views)
Permalink
Re: Claims by BDS [In reply to]

Hello,

Just to clarify a few points -

1. The term Palestinian-Arabs refers to people who identify themselves as part of the Palestinian People, but they hold various nationalities. Many of them are Israeli citizens, so they can arrive at Haifa just as any other Israeli (and like other Israelis, they might register at the last moment, since they don't need accommodations). Those who live in East Jerusalem are not necessarily Israeli nationals, but they have free access to any place in Israel (they hold Israeli IDs, which are more-or-less like Green Cards in the US). Those living in Jordan and have Jordanian nationality should obtain visa from the Israeli embassy in Amman. Those who live in the West Bank and are under the jurisdiction of the Palestinian Authority enter Israel with their Palestinian internal ID and a permit which the PA office obtain for them from the Israeli authorities (so they need to file the request at the local PA office). Many of them have a permanent permit - these are usually WB residents who work in Israel. The main problem is with residents of the Gaza Strip, due to the very delicate political situation there. It is possible to obtain permits for them too, but it requires some coordinations with the relevant authorities. I personally made some phone calls, and received detailed information about how to start the process, but unfortunately, I received no information about people from Gaza who actually filed requests to enter Israel for attending Wikimania.

2. Palestinians have good access to Internet. Currently, the Palestinian ISPs relies on the Israeli infrastructure, so it might seem as if they connect from Israel, though in many cases I saw Palestinian Territories as the designation of location for people connecting from the WB and Gaza. That said, Wikipedia is not very popular among Palestinians, as far as I can judge. Wikipedia and Wikimedia projects are extremely popular among Hebrew-speaking Israelis, but Arabic-speaking Israelis and Palestinians in the WB and Gaza are much more into writing blogs, posting comments in various Arabic-speaking web-forums etc. When I was interviewed in Arabic about Wikipedia, the Palestinian person who was interviewed with me was not a Wikipedian, but rather the head of a Palestinian bloggers' union.

3. I talked with some Egyptians who considered coming to Haifa. It wouldn't be fair to reveal information given to me in private conversations, but I can say that the current situation in Egypt poses unexpected difficulties to Egyptians who wish to visit Israel. The Israeli embassy in Cairo and the consulate in Alexandria work normally, and visa procedures have not changed, and yet being listed as someone who crossed the border to Israel is something many of those I've talked with prefer to avoid at the current state of affairs. I'm afraid this is beyond the control of any of us, and it is an unexpected development of the past five months or so.

Dror K


werespielchequers at gmail

Jun 29, 2011, 3:50 AM

Post #22 of 31 (592 views)
Permalink
Re: Claims by BDS [In reply to]

I suspect that at present Wikimedians in Gaza would have difficulty
attending an event anywhere outside the Gaza strip - whether it was in
Israel or not. The censorship article says that explicit sexual
content is filtered out in Gaza, but it doesn't say whether that means
just a minority of Wikipedia pages are filtered out, or the whole site
is filtered out, or our whole site is allowed becasue the vast
majority of pages don't contain explicit sexual content.

In the context of Wikimania and also the board resolution on enabling
filters, it would be interesting to know whether Hamas is blocking or
even trying to block Wikipedia in the Gaza strip. Is there any chance
that someone connected with the Israeli chapter has a contact inside
Gaza who could test this?

WSC

On 29 June 2011 11:13, <dror1975 [at] icqmail> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> Just to clarify a few points -
>
> 1. The term Palestinian-Arabs refers to people who identify themselves as
> part of the Palestinian People, but they hold various nationalities. Many of
> them are Israeli citizens, so they can arrive at Haifa just as any other
> Israeli (and like other Israelis, they might register at the last moment,
> since they don't need accommodations). Those who live in East Jerusalem are
> not necessarily Israeli nationals, but they have free access to any place in
> Israel (they hold Israeli IDs, which are more-or-less like Green Cards in
> the US). Those living in Jordan and have Jordanian nationality should obtain
> visa from the Israeli embassy in Amman. Those who live in the West Bank and
> are under the jurisdiction of the Palestinian Authority enter Israel with
> their Palestinian internal ID and a permit which the PA office obtain for
> them from the Israeli authorities (so they need to file the request at the
> local PA office). Many of them have a permanent permit - these are usually
> WB residents who work in Israel. The main problem is with residents of the
> Gaza Strip, due to the very delicate political situation there. It is
> possible to obtain permits for them too, but it requires some coordinations
> with the relevant authorities. I personally made some phone calls, and
> received detailed information about how to start the process, but
> unfortunately, I received no information about people from Gaza who actually
> filed requests to enter Israel for attending Wikimania.
>
> 2. Palestinians have good access to Internet. Currently, the Palestinian
> ISPs relies on the Israeli infrastructure, so it might seem as if they
> connect from Israel, though in many cases I saw Palestinian Territories as
> the designation of location for people connecting from the WB and Gaza. That
> said, Wikipedia is not very popular among Palestinians, as far as I can
> judge. Wikipedia and Wikimedia projects are extremely popular among
> Hebrew-speaking Israelis, but Arabic-speaking Israelis and Palestinians in
> the WB and Gaza are much more into writing blogs, posting comments in
> various Arabic-speaking web-forums etc. When I was interviewed in Arabic
> about Wikipedia, the Palestinian person who was interviewed with me was not
> a Wikipedian, but rather the head of a Palestinian bloggers' union.
>
> 3. I talked with some Egyptians who considered coming to Haifa. It wouldn't
> be fair to reveal information given to me in private conversations, but I
> can say that the current situation in Egypt poses unexpected difficulties to
> Egyptians who wish to visit Israel. The Israeli embassy in Cairo and the
> consulate in Alexandria work normally, and visa procedures have not changed,
> and yet being listed as someone who crossed the border to Israel is
> something many of those I've talked with prefer to avoid at the current
> state of affairs. I'm afraid this is beyond the control of any of us, and it
> is an unexpected development of the past five months or so.
>
> Dror K
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l [at] lists
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>

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dror1975 at icqmail

Jun 29, 2011, 5:14 AM

Post #23 of 31 (594 views)
Permalink
Claims by BDS [In reply to]

About filtering Wikipedia or any other website in the Gaza Strip - Gaza doesn't have its own telecommunication infrastructure. Even though the Palestinian Authority has reserved its own international dialing prefix (+970), and its own TLD (.ps), in practice, the telecommunication infrastructure is operated from Israel (the +972 zone). There are special numbers and dialing codes reserved for the use of the Palestinian Territories, and as far as I know, this applies for the Internet access too. I don't know if it is possible technically to intervene in the transmission of information, while the "hub" is beyond your territory, especially as Hamas has no official status. For these purposes, it communicates with the world through the PA, if and when it is willing to do the service (they cooperate if it's for the benefit of the local Gazan residents). Anyway, that's the best account I can offer about this unusual situation.

Dror K


dror1975 at icqmail

Jun 29, 2011, 5:28 AM

Post #24 of 31 (591 views)
Permalink
Claims by BDS [In reply to]

Two related points about this issue -

When Wikimania was held in Alexandria, Egypt, a Palestinian from either the WB or Gaza (I can't remember exactly) was denied visa by the Egyptian authorities. I know that because I talked with him through IRC after the event (though I lost contact with him, and I don't remember the exact details anymore). When Wikimania was in Taipei, an Egyptian Wikipedian asked me to help him get a visa from the Taiwanese representations in either Tel Aviv or Amman, but unfortunately they demanded personal attendance, and this person was unable to reach either of these cities. I'm afraid technical and political issues are always going to be, to some extent, an obstacle to international events, as much as we try to work around them.

Israel is the only country to which Palestinian residents of the WB and Gaza can enter without a passport, and since a Palestinian passport is not widely recognized as a travel document, it is much easier for them to access places in Israel. For example, in case of serious health problems, an Israeli hospital is always the first option for these people, because it is more accessible than any other medical facility outside the Palestinian Territories. So basically, unless we hold Wikimania in Ramallah or Gaza City, Haifa is one of the best options for Palestinians. It is regrettable that not many seized the opportunity.

Dror K


kim at bruning

Jun 29, 2011, 12:34 PM

Post #25 of 31 (586 views)
Permalink
Re: Claims by BDS [In reply to]

On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 11:50:19AM +0100, WereSpielChequers wrote:
> In the context of Wikimania and also the board resolution on enabling
> filters, it would be interesting to know whether Hamas is blocking or
> even trying to block Wikipedia in the Gaza strip. Is there any chance
> that someone connected with the Israeli chapter has a contact inside
> Gaza who could test this?

Err board resolution on enabeling filters? Doesn't that violate
[[WP:NOTCENSORED]] ? <looks puzzeled>

sincerely,
Kim Bruning

--
[Non-pgp mail clients may show pgp-signature as attachment]
gpg (www.gnupg.org) Fingerprint for key FEF9DD72
5ED6 E215 73EE AD84 E03A 01C5 94AC 7B0E FEF9 DD72

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