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TinyMCE

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john.van.v at gmail

Aug 23, 2008, 10:00 AM

Post #1 of 11 (944 views)
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TinyMCE

I considered attempting to install TinyMCE because my use for Mediawiki
right now is to develop technical documents, and also social science
arguments about <see sig>

What troubles me about the Mediawiki editor is not the small feature set,
but the lack of double spaces between sentences. This "webism" forces me to
use M$ Word in the library, which scans for this writing error.

I read that there had been problems, so I went to the Moxiecode owned
Mediawiki, and the Moxie coders have not themselves implemented it there,
so....

~~John
---
Empathy
http://thinman.com/empathy

Photography
http://thinman.com/photography

Technology
http://thinman.com
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bhorst at mac

Aug 23, 2008, 11:52 AM

Post #2 of 11 (920 views)
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Re: TinyMCE [In reply to]

I have to point out that a single space between sentences is not just
a web-ism, it is in fact the correct way to write in any digital
medium. This is because of the way letters and spaces are composed
digitally, versus the older way used by typewriters. Digital letters
take up whatever width is appropriate based on the actual width of
each individual glyph, whereas typewriters had a fixed width for all
glyphs (letters, symbols, digits, etc).

The hack of using two spaces on typewriters was necessary because a
lot of white space could appear between letters that were narrow, and
thus even more white space was needed to visually separate sentences.
The hack was not ever used in other media, such as printing presses or
in professionally typeset materials, and now that software can
intelligently manage the width of glyphs, there is no longer any need
for the double spaces between sentences.

It's been a long time since I used MS Word (OpenOffice displaced it
for me), but I recall the grammar checker would catch double-spaces
between sentences and mark it as incorrect. Is this no longer the
standard behavior?

I was reluctant and annoyed when first told about this--how could my
high school typing teacher have been wrong? But my company showed me
some online documentation (which I have since lost track of) assuring
me that single spaces between sentences is the correct way. And I've
adjusted and it works great.

-Ben

On Aug 23, 2008, at 1:00 PM, John van V. wrote:

> I considered attempting to install TinyMCE because my use for
> Mediawiki
> right now is to develop technical documents, and also social science
> arguments about <see sig>
>
> What troubles me about the Mediawiki editor is not the small feature
> set,
> but the lack of double spaces between sentences. This "webism"
> forces me to
> use M$ Word in the library, which scans for this writing error.
>
> I read that there had been problems, so I went to the Moxiecode owned
> Mediawiki, and the Moxie coders have not themselves implemented it
> there,
> so....
>
> ~~John
> ---
> Empathy
> http://thinman.com/empathy
>
> Photography
> http://thinman.com/photography
>
> Technology
> http://thinman.com
> _______________________________________________
> MediaWiki-l mailing list
> MediaWiki-l[at]lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l

Benjamin Horst
bhorst[at]mac.com
646-464-2314 (ET)

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jeremy at tuxmachine

Aug 23, 2008, 12:03 PM

Post #3 of 11 (921 views)
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Re: TinyMCE [In reply to]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_spacing

On Aug 23, 2008, at 2:52 PM, Benjamin Horst wrote:
> I have to point out that a single space between sentences is not just
> a web-ism, it is in fact the correct way to write in any digital
> medium. This is because of the way letters and spaces are composed
> digitally, versus the older way used by typewriters. Digital letters
> take up whatever width is appropriate based on the actual width of
> each individual glyph, whereas typewriters had a fixed width for all
> glyphs (letters, symbols, digits, etc).
>
> The hack of using two spaces on typewriters was necessary because a
> lot of white space could appear between letters that were narrow, and
> thus even more white space was needed to visually separate sentences.
> The hack was not ever used in other media, such as printing presses or
> in professionally typeset materials, and now that software can
> intelligently manage the width of glyphs, there is no longer any need
> for the double spaces between sentences.
>
> It's been a long time since I used MS Word (OpenOffice displaced it
> for me), but I recall the grammar checker would catch double-spaces
> between sentences and mark it as incorrect. Is this no longer the
> standard behavior?
>
> I was reluctant and annoyed when first told about this--how could my
> high school typing teacher have been wrong? But my company showed me
> some online documentation (which I have since lost track of) assuring
> me that single spaces between sentences is the correct way. And I've
> adjusted and it works great.
>
> -Ben
>
> On Aug 23, 2008, at 1:00 PM, John van V. wrote:
>
>> I considered attempting to install TinyMCE because my use for
>> Mediawiki
>> right now is to develop technical documents, and also social science
>> arguments about <see sig>
>>
>> What troubles me about the Mediawiki editor is not the small feature
>> set,
>> but the lack of double spaces between sentences. This "webism"
>> forces me to
>> use M$ Word in the library, which scans for this writing error.
>>
>> I read that there had been problems, so I went to the Moxiecode owned
>> Mediawiki, and the Moxie coders have not themselves implemented it
>> there,
>> so....
>>
>> ~~John
>> ---
>> Empathy
>> http://thinman.com/empathy
>>
>> Photography
>> http://thinman.com/photography
>>
>> Technology
>> http://thinman.com
> Benjamin Horst
> bhorst[at]mac.com
> 646-464-2314 (ET)

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s.vanslyck at spamcop

Aug 23, 2008, 12:19 PM

Post #4 of 11 (918 views)
Permalink

Re: TinyMCE [In reply to]

Lack of double spaces between sentences is the standard publication
protocol for publications using variable-spaced type. The pre-eminent
authority is the Chicago Manual of Style. For the authoritative answer
on this question, see
http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/CMS_FAQ/OneSpaceorTwo/OneSpaceorTwo_questions01.html
.

Pick up and examine any _professionally_ published book, magazine, or
newspaper and you won't find double spaces, nor will you find commas or
periods standing outside the double quotes.

It is definitely not "webism," which repeats, over and over again, the
worst mistakes of common English grammar and punctuation.

John van V. wrote:
> I considered attempting to install TinyMCE because my use for Mediawiki
> right now is to develop technical documents, and also social science
> arguments about <see sig>
>
> What troubles me about the Mediawiki editor is not the small feature set,
> but the lack of double spaces between sentences. This "webism" forces me to
> use M$ Word in the library, which scans for this writing error.
>
> I read that there had been problems, so I went to the Moxiecode owned
> Mediawiki, and the Moxie coders have not themselves implemented it there,
> so....
>
> ~~John
> ---
> Empathy
> http://thinman.com/empathy
>
> Photography
> http://thinman.com/photography
>
> Technology
> http://thinman.com
> _______________________________________________
> MediaWiki-l mailing list
> MediaWiki-l[at]lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l
>
_______________________________________________
MediaWiki-l mailing list
MediaWiki-l[at]lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l

rob at colorist

Aug 23, 2008, 12:33 PM

Post #5 of 11 (918 views)
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Re: TinyMCE [In reply to]

On Aug 23, 2008, at 10:19 PM, Steve VanSlyck wrote:

> It is definitely not "webism," which repeats, over and over again, the
> worst mistakes of common English grammar and punctuation.

hear, hear. though i find it hard to use upper case in net
communication (call it the unix distortion) i'm abhorred even at the
mistakes now common on the New York Times, and (horror) The New
Yorker. Editors seem either to be idiots or unemployed.

Rob

--
Rob Lingelbach
rob[at]colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/robhome.html

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s.vanslyck at spamcop

Aug 23, 2008, 12:38 PM

Post #6 of 11 (916 views)
Permalink

Re: TinyMCE [In reply to]

One that endlessly bugs me - and isn't really on topic - is the use of
"Check if...." OK, so if there _isn't_ any UPS tracking information,
that means you won't be doing any checking? Or if I'm not using the most
recent version of the Windows Update software, you won't be doing any
checking? They cannot bestir themselves to think about what they are
writing, and simply say, "Checking to find out if...." Well, I dunno.
Opinions vary, and this is just mine. I could be wrong.

Rob Lingelbach wrote:
> On Aug 23, 2008, at 10:19 PM, Steve VanSlyck wrote:
>
>
>> It is definitely not "webism," which repeats, over and over again, the
>> worst mistakes of common English grammar and punctuation.
>>
> hear, hear. though i find it hard to use upper case in net
> communication (call it the unix distortion) i'm abhorred even at the
> mistakes now common on the New York Times, and (horror) The New
> Yorker. Editors seem either to be idiots or unemployed.
>
> Rob
>
> --
> Rob Lingelbach
> rob[at]colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/robhome.html
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> MediaWiki-l mailing list
> MediaWiki-l[at]lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l
>
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michael.daly at kayakwiki

Aug 23, 2008, 2:33 PM

Post #7 of 11 (918 views)
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Re: TinyMCE [In reply to]

Steve VanSlyck wrote:

> Pick up and examine any _professionally_ published book, magazine, or
> newspaper and you won't find double spaces,

OTOH, many _professional_ publishing systems _do_ use different spacing
between periods and the beginning of a new sentence. The space is
neither one nor two spaces, but intermediate. Some desktop publishing
systems use an em space between sentences and an en space between words.
IBM's Script/VS used two spaces on monospace font devices (like older
printers).

Declaring this to be right or wrong based on your preference is hardly
reasonable. You will find professionally produced documents with a
variety of standards. Not all will satisfy the CMS reference you
provided. In fact, my copy of the CMS (13th ed.) states that the
spacing between words and sentences can be varied according to design
and notes the standards for marking up text to increase or decrease
spacing between words. Full justification of text requires variable
spacing.

Mike

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s.vanslyck at spamcop

Aug 23, 2008, 2:35 PM

Post #8 of 11 (918 views)
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Re: TinyMCE [In reply to]

I'm not talking about systems, I'm talking about National Geographic.
Scientific American. Time. Newsweek. &c.

Michael Daly wrote:
> Steve VanSlyck wrote:
>
>
>> Pick up and examine any _professionally_ published book, magazine, or
>> newspaper and you won't find double spaces.
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s.vanslyck at spamcop

Aug 23, 2008, 2:36 PM

Post #9 of 11 (916 views)
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Re: TinyMCE [In reply to]

I'm not talking about systems, I'm talking about National Geographic.
Scientific American. Time. Newsweek. &c.

"The view at /CMOS/ is that there is no reason for two spaces after a
period in /published/ work. Some people, however---my colleagues
included---prefer it, relegating this preference to their personal
correspondence and notes. I've noticed in old American books printed in
the few decades before and after the turn of the last century (ca.
1870--1930 at least) that there seemed to be a trend in publishing to
use extra space (sometimes quite a bit of it) after periods. And many
people were taught to use that extra space in typing class (I was). But
introducing two spaces after the period causes problems: (1) it is
inefficient, requiring an extra keystroke for every sentence; (2) even
if a program is set to automatically put an extra space after a period,
such automation is never foolproof; (3) there is no proof that an extra
space actually improves readability---as your comment suggests, it's
probably just a matter of familiarity (Who knows? perhaps it's actually
more efficient to read with less regard for sentences as individual
units of thought---many centuries ago, for example in ancient Greece,
there were no spaces even between words, and no punctuation); (4) two
spaces are harder to control for than one in electronic documents (I
find that the earmark of a document that imposes a two-space rule is a
smattering of instances of both three spaces and one space after a
period, and two spaces in the middle of sentences); and (5) two spaces
can cause problems with line breaks in certain programs.

So, in our efficient, modern world, I think there is no room for two
spaces after a period. In the opinion of this particular copyeditor,
this is a good thing."

http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/CMS_FAQ/OneSpaceorTwo/OneSpaceorTwo03.html

Michael Daly wrote:
> Steve VanSlyck wrote:
>
>
>> Pick up and examine any _professionally_ published book, magazine, or
>> newspaper and you won't find double spaces.
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Jan at Bytesmiths

Aug 23, 2008, 4:41 PM

Post #10 of 11 (918 views)
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Re: TinyMCE [In reply to]

> From: Steve VanSlyck <s.vanslyck[at]spamcop.net>
>
> ... nor will you find commas or
> periods standing outside the double quotes.

Except for "terms of art," which are most often used in writing about
literal technical terms that need to be repeated exactly as shown, as
opposed to actually quoting speech.

Example:

Go to "www.mystuff.com", where you will see she wrote, "This is what
I mean."

Confused yet? :-)

:::: You must be the change you wish to see in the world -- Ghandi ::::
:::: Jan Steinman, http://www.EcoReality.org ::::

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dan_the_man at telus

Aug 23, 2008, 10:03 PM

Post #11 of 11 (908 views)
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Re: TinyMCE [In reply to]

Be it a webism or not, HTML folds whitespace, so 'implementing' anything
to do with double spaces has nothing to do with MediaWiki. The software
does not render anything, any double space you enter is outputted
verbose to the browser, the browser is what does the rendering and
folding of that whitespace.

However you may not want to pick out TinyMCE as the WYSIWYG editor to
use. Not for it being feature lacking, but at the current point in time
it appears accepted that the FCKeditor MediaWiki implementation has done
the best job of acting as a WYSIWYG editor for MediaWiki. TinyMCE
appears to have other whitespace related bugs, and does not appear to
have been developed as actively as the FCKeditor for MediaWiki has.
Though, that said, even the /top/ pick for MediaWiki WYSIWYG editors
still isn't bug less, short use of even that editor can lead to strange
things inside of the WikiText.

~Daniel Friesen(Dantman, Nadir-Seen-Fire) of:
-The Nadir-Point Group (http://nadir-point.com)
--It's Wiki-Tools subgroup (http://wiki-tools.com)
--The ElectronicMe project (http://electronic-me.org)
--Games-G.P.S. (http://ggps.org)
-And Wikia ACG on Wikia.com (http://wikia.com/wiki/Wikia_ACG)
--Animepedia (http://anime.wikia.com)
--Narutopedia (http://naruto.wikia.com)

John van V. wrote:
> I considered attempting to install TinyMCE because my use for Mediawiki
> right now is to develop technical documents, and also social science
> arguments about <see sig>
>
> What troubles me about the Mediawiki editor is not the small feature set,
> but the lack of double spaces between sentences. This "webism" forces me to
> use M$ Word in the library, which scans for this writing error.
>
> I read that there had been problems, so I went to the Moxiecode owned
> Mediawiki, and the Moxie coders have not themselves implemented it there,
> so....
>
> ~~John
> ---
> Empathy
> http://thinman.com/empathy
>
> Photography
> http://thinman.com/photography
>
> Technology
> http://thinman.com
>
_______________________________________________
MediaWiki-l mailing list
MediaWiki-l[at]lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l

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