Mailing List Archive: Wikipedia: Foundation

[Wikimedia-l] conversations between WMF and non-English projects

1 2

View All

Index | Next | Previous | View Threaded

amir.aharoni at mail

Jul 29, 2012, 11:27 AM

Post #1 of 35 (334 views)
Permalink

[Wikimedia-l] conversations between WMF and non-English projects

Hi,

In the 2012-13 WMF plan document I saw an interesting thing:
"We’ve hosted key community stakeholders such as English Wikipedia’s
ArbCom and Portuguese Wikipedia’s top contributors, in an effort to
better understand and respond to issues they're facing." (page 41).

I was very happy to read this. In general, I hope that such focused
meetings will be held with more language communities. I don't think
that I need to explain why :)

I don't know how did the meeting with the Portuguese Wikipedians go; I
suppose that it was good. I don't remember that I read anything about
it in blogs or mailing lists, but I may have missed it. Maybe what I'm
about to write is known already, but I'll say it anyway.

An important thing in such meetings is to have a community member who
contributes to the Wikipedia in that language AND to the English
Wikipedia. This is needed because the Foundation people are probably
familiar with policies, customs and jargon in the English Wikipedia.
Even simple terms, like "Village Pump", are not necessarily familiar
to people who primarily edit in other languages; not all Wikipedias
have ArbComs; not all Wikipedias prohibit voting; etc. Such a person
will be able to "translate" between the English Wikipedia terms and
the local Wikipedia terms. Without such a person misunderstandings
will definitely happen, even if everybody knows the English language
well.

That's it, hope it helps.

--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
‪“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

nemowiki at gmail

Jul 29, 2012, 12:30 PM

Post #2 of 35 (326 views)
Permalink

Re: [Wikimedia-l] conversations between WMF and non-English projects [In reply to]

Amir E. Aharoni, 29/07/2012 20:27:
> In the 2012-13 WMF plan document I saw an interesting thing:
> "We’ve hosted key community stakeholders such as English Wikipedia’s
> ArbCom and Portuguese Wikipedia’s top contributors, in an effort to
> better understand and respond to issues they're facing." (page 41).
>
> I was very happy to read this. In general, I hope that such focused
> meetings will be held with more language communities. I don't think
> that I need to explain why :)

I'm not sure I like the idea of "key community stakeholders", but I
agree. The following passage is interesting as well, in fact I had
forwarded it to WikiIT-l already:

«In response, in 2012-13 we intend to invest in more thoroughly
understanding the non-en-WP communities, and growing our social and
political capital. To that end, we will build a team of three community
advocates inside the Legal and Community Advocacy department, with the
goal of better understanding the non-English language communities,
particularly German, Japanese, Spanish, Russian, French and Italian.
We will also recruit an additional 5-10 experienced community members as
short-term WMF fellows.»

Nemo

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

amir.aharoni at mail

Jul 29, 2012, 12:35 PM

Post #3 of 35 (330 views)
Permalink

Re: [Wikimedia-l] conversations between WMF and non-English projects [In reply to]

--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
‪“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬

2012/7/29 Federico Leva (Nemo) <nemowiki [at] gmail>:
> Amir E. Aharoni, 29/07/2012 20:27:
>
>> In the 2012-13 WMF plan document I saw an interesting thing:
>> "We’ve hosted key community stakeholders such as English Wikipedia’s
>> ArbCom and Portuguese Wikipedia’s top contributors, in an effort to
>> better understand and respond to issues they're facing." (page 41).
>>
>> I was very happy to read this. In general, I hope that such focused
>> meetings will be held with more language communities. I don't think
>> that I need to explain why :)
>
>
> I'm not sure I like the idea of "key community stakeholders"

Well, this sends us back to Tom Morris' classic post:
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2012-February/118759.html

But that's a different topic.

--
Amir

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

nemowiki at gmail

Jul 29, 2012, 1:02 PM

Post #4 of 35 (330 views)
Permalink

Re: [Wikimedia-l] conversations between WMF and non-English projects [In reply to]

Amir E. Aharoni, 29/07/2012 21:35:
>> I'm not sure I like the idea of "key community stakeholders"
>
> Well, this sends us back to Tom Morris' classic post:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2012-February/118759.html
>
> But that's a different topic.

Is it really only a problem of language?
Why should the WMF meet ArbCom members, for instance? It doesn't seem a
suitable way to understand a community. I'm not saying that there are
easy alternatives of course. :-)

Nemo

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

amir.aharoni at mail

Jul 29, 2012, 1:08 PM

Post #5 of 35 (327 views)
Permalink

Re: [Wikimedia-l] conversations between WMF and non-English projects [In reply to]

2012/7/29 Federico Leva (Nemo) <nemowiki [at] gmail>:
> Amir E. Aharoni, 29/07/2012 21:35:
>
>>> I'm not sure I like the idea of "key community stakeholders"
>>
>>
>> Well, this sends us back to Tom Morris' classic post:
>> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2012-February/118759.html
>>
>> But that's a different topic.
>
>
> Is it really only a problem of language?

The problem is that many parts of the report are written in
Corporatese English, and "key community stakeholders" is an example of
it. I'm not even sure what that means. Quite possible its actual
meaning is much better than the way it sounds.

> Why should the WMF meet ArbCom members, for instance? It doesn't seem a
> suitable way to understand a community. I'm not saying that there are easy
> alternatives of course. :-)

ArbCom is quite important for the English Wikipedia, but it's
certainly not the only important thing. And indeed, the Foundation is
investing quite a lot in other channels of communication with enwiki,
which is OK. Most importantly, it also starts to invest in
communication with other languages. The general direction is good; I'm
just trying to give some tips.

--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
‪“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

putevod at mccme

Jul 29, 2012, 1:18 PM

Post #6 of 35 (323 views)
Permalink

Re: [Wikimedia-l] conversations between WMF and non-English projects [In reply to]

> Is it really only a problem of language?
> Why should the WMF meet ArbCom members, for instance? It doesn't seem
> a suitable way to understand a community. I'm not saying that there
> are easy alternatives of course. :-)
>
> Nemo
>
For instance, Russian Wikipedia community is strongly divided for
already quite some time, with one fraction being systematically elected
to form the majority of ArbCom, and another fraction holding the chapter
and consequently having better access to the WMF. I just can not see who
could be the person hired by the Foundation to figure out what the
situation actually is.

Cheers
Yaroslav

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

steven.walling at gmail

Jul 29, 2012, 1:52 PM

Post #7 of 35 (325 views)
Permalink

Re: [Wikimedia-l] conversations between WMF and non-English projects [In reply to]

On Sun, Jul 29, 2012 at 11:27 AM, Amir E. Aharoni <
amir.aharoni [at] mail> wrote:

> I don't know how did the meeting with the Portuguese Wikipedians go; I
> suppose that it was good. I don't remember that I read anything about
> it in blogs or mailing lists, but I may have missed it. Maybe what I'm
> about to write is known already, but I'll say it anyway.
>

Our blog post reporting back on the trip to Brazil is here, in English and
Portuguese: https://blog.wikimedia.org/2012/03/22/brazil-meetups-march/

:-)

Steven
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

thomas.dalton at gmail

Jul 29, 2012, 2:01 PM

Post #8 of 35 (330 views)
Permalink

Re: [Wikimedia-l] conversations between WMF and non-English projects [In reply to]

On 29 July 2012 21:52, Steven Walling <steven.walling [at] gmail> wrote:
> Our blog post reporting back on the trip to Brazil is here, in English and
> Portuguese: https://blog.wikimedia.org/2012/03/22/brazil-meetups-march/

That reads like it was a meeting with a selection of Brazilian
Wikipedians. That does not equate with "Portuguese Wikipedia’s top
contributors". I'm sure some of Portuguese Wikipedia’s top
contributors are Brazilian, but it is rather disingenuous to suggest
they all are.

This was part of your outreach work to Brazil, not Portuguese
Wikipedia. Why describe it so inaccurately?

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

nemowiki at gmail

Jul 29, 2012, 2:28 PM

Post #9 of 35 (324 views)
Permalink

Re: [Wikimedia-l] conversations between WMF and non-English projects [In reply to]

Thomas Dalton, 29/07/2012 23:01:
> On 29 July 2012 21:52, Steven Walling <steven.walling [at] gmail> wrote:
>> Our blog post reporting back on the trip to Brazil is here, in English and
>> Portuguese: https://blog.wikimedia.org/2012/03/22/brazil-meetups-march/
>
> That reads like it was a meeting with a selection of Brazilian
> Wikipedians. That does not equate with "Portuguese Wikipedia’s top
> contributors". I'm sure some of Portuguese Wikipedia’s top
> contributors are Brazilian, but it is rather disingenuous to suggest
> they all are.
>
> This was part of your outreach work to Brazil, not Portuguese
> Wikipedia. Why describe it so inaccurately?

Indeed, I'd never have connected the two things if Steven hadn't
explained it.

Nemo

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

steven.walling at gmail

Jul 29, 2012, 2:33 PM

Post #10 of 35 (328 views)
Permalink

Re: [Wikimedia-l] conversations between WMF and non-English projects [In reply to]

On Sun, Jul 29, 2012 at 2:01 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton [at] gmail>wrote:

>
> That reads like it was a meeting with a selection of Brazilian
> Wikipedians. That does not equate with "Portuguese Wikipedia�s top
> contributors". I'm sure some of Portuguese Wikipedia�s top
> contributors are Brazilian, but it is rather disingenuous to suggest
> they all are.
>
> This was part of your outreach work to Brazil, not Portuguese
> Wikipedia. Why describe it so inaccurately?

I can see how you would think this if you're not involved with these
communities, but a clear majority of the active editors on Portuguese
Wikipedia are in fact Brazilian. The description given is not inaccurate.

Steven
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

thomas.dalton at gmail

Jul 29, 2012, 2:39 PM

Post #11 of 35 (321 views)
Permalink

Re: [Wikimedia-l] conversations between WMF and non-English projects [In reply to]

On 29 July 2012 22:33, Steven Walling <steven.walling [at] gmail> wrote:
> I can see how you would think this if you're not involved with these
> communities, but a clear majority of the active editors on Portuguese
> Wikipedia are in fact Brazilian. The description given is not inaccurate.

While I may not be involved in the Portuguese Wikipedia, I do have a
masters degree in mathematics, so I can reliably inform you that
"majority" is not the same as "all".

The WMF tends to employ smart people, so I assume that whoever wrote
that bit of the plan knew that that wasn't the most accurate way of
describing the activity. So, my question to you is: why did they
describe it that way? Why say "Portuguese Wikipedia’s top
contributors" when "a selection of Wikipedians in Brazil" would have
been far more accurate?

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

steven.walling at gmail

Jul 29, 2012, 2:48 PM

Post #12 of 35 (328 views)
Permalink

Re: [Wikimedia-l] conversations between WMF and non-English projects [In reply to]

On Sun, Jul 29, 2012 at 2:39 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton [at] gmail>wrote:

> While I may not be involved in the Portuguese Wikipedia, I do have a
> masters degree in mathematics, so I can reliably inform you that
> "majority" is not the same as "all".
>
> The WMF tends to employ smart people, so I assume that whoever wrote
> that bit of the plan knew that that wasn't the most accurate way of
> describing the activity. So, my question to you is: why did they
> describe it that way? Why say "Portuguese Wikipedia�s top
> contributors" when "a selection of Wikipedians in Brazil" would have
> been far more accurate?
>

You're making a mountain out of a mole hill here, Thomas. Perhaps the
caveat "some of" should be added to "Portuguese Wikipedia's top
contributors", but the current statement is more accurate than the one you
proposed, given the state of Pt Wikipedia and who came to our meetups.

Steven
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

deryckchan at wikimedia

Jul 29, 2012, 2:49 PM

Post #13 of 35 (328 views)
Permalink

Re: [Wikimedia-l] conversations between WMF and non-English projects [In reply to]

On 29 July 2012 22:39, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton [at] gmail> wrote:

> On 29 July 2012 22:33, Steven Walling <steven.walling [at] gmail> wrote:
> > I can see how you would think this if you're not involved with these
> > communities, but a clear majority of the active editors on Portuguese
> > Wikipedia are in fact Brazilian. The description given is not inaccurate.
>
> While I may not be involved in the Portuguese Wikipedia, I do have a
> masters degree in mathematics, so I can reliably inform you that
> "majority" is not the same as "all".
>
> The WMF tends to employ smart people, so I assume that whoever wrote
> that bit of the plan knew that that wasn't the most accurate way of
> describing the activity. So, my question to you is: why did they
> describe it that way? Why say "Portuguese Wikipedia’s top
> contributors" when "a selection of Wikipedians in Brazil" would have
> been far more accurate?
>
> Because everyone describes themselves in a way that makes them sound the
most powerful.
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

nawrich at gmail

Jul 29, 2012, 2:57 PM

Post #14 of 35 (327 views)
Permalink

Re: [Wikimedia-l] conversations between WMF and non-English projects [In reply to]

On Sun, Jul 29, 2012 at 5:39 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton [at] gmail>wrote:

> On 29 July 2012 22:33, Steven Walling <steven.walling [at] gmail> wrote:
> > I can see how you would think this if you're not involved with these
> > communities, but a clear majority of the active editors on Portuguese
> > Wikipedia are in fact Brazilian. The description given is not inaccurate.
>
> While I may not be involved in the Portuguese Wikipedia, I do have a
> masters degree in mathematics, so I can reliably inform you that
> "majority" is not the same as "all".
>
> The WMF tends to employ smart people, so I assume that whoever wrote
> that bit of the plan knew that that wasn't the most accurate way of
> describing the activity. So, my question to you is: why did they
> describe it that way? Why say "Portuguese Wikipedia’s top
> contributors" when "a selection of Wikipedians in Brazil" would have
> been far more accurate?
>
>
Can your masters degree in mathematics point out where in Wikimedia's
statement it said "all" or implied anything other than having met some of
Portuguese Wikipedia's top contributors? Not sure what the big deal is.
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

deryckchan at wikimedia

Jul 29, 2012, 3:03 PM

Post #15 of 35 (323 views)
Permalink

Re: [Wikimedia-l] conversations between WMF and non-English projects [In reply to]

On 29 July 2012 22:57, Nathan <nawrich [at] gmail> wrote:

> On Sun, Jul 29, 2012 at 5:39 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton [at] gmail
> >wrote:
>
> > On 29 July 2012 22:33, Steven Walling <steven.walling [at] gmail> wrote:
> > > I can see how you would think this if you're not involved with these
> > > communities, but a clear majority of the active editors on Portuguese
> > > Wikipedia are in fact Brazilian. The description given is not
> inaccurate.
> >
> > While I may not be involved in the Portuguese Wikipedia, I do have a
> > masters degree in mathematics, so I can reliably inform you that
> > "majority" is not the same as "all".
> >
> > The WMF tends to employ smart people, so I assume that whoever wrote
> > that bit of the plan knew that that wasn't the most accurate way of
> > describing the activity. So, my question to you is: why did they
> > describe it that way? Why say "Portuguese Wikipedia’s top
> > contributors" when "a selection of Wikipedians in Brazil" would have
> > been far more accurate?
> >
> >
> Can your masters degree in mathematics point out where in Wikimedia's
> statement it said "all" or implied anything other than having met some of
> Portuguese Wikipedia's top contributors? Not sure what the big deal is.
>

I think the big deal is that, the annual plan used the phrase "Portuguese
Wikipedia’s top contributors" unqualified, but Thomas pointed out that the
selection of Wikipedians who met with WMF staff was not a representative
sample because only Brazilians were represented.
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

thomas.dalton at gmail

Jul 29, 2012, 3:07 PM

Post #16 of 35 (325 views)
Permalink

Re: [Wikimedia-l] conversations between WMF and non-English projects [In reply to]

On 29 July 2012 22:48, Steven Walling <steven.walling [at] gmail> wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 29, 2012 at 2:39 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton [at] gmail>wrote:
>
>> While I may not be involved in the Portuguese Wikipedia, I do have a
>> masters degree in mathematics, so I can reliably inform you that
>> "majority" is not the same as "all".
>>
>> The WMF tends to employ smart people, so I assume that whoever wrote
>> that bit of the plan knew that that wasn't the most accurate way of
>> describing the activity. So, my question to you is: why did they
>> describe it that way? Why say "Portuguese Wikipedia’s top
>> contributors" when "a selection of Wikipedians in Brazil" would have
>> been far more accurate?
>>
>
> You're making a mountain out of a mole hill here, Thomas. Perhaps the
> caveat "some of" should be added to "Portuguese Wikipedia's top
> contributors", but the current statement is more accurate than the one you
> proposed, given the state of Pt Wikipedia and who came to our meetups.

This is not a mole hill. It is the WMF (I assume intentionally, since
you must have known better) misleading people about its activities.
You had a particular message you wanted to give, so you described the
activity in a way that supported that message even though that was not
an accurate description.

Your description is certainly not more accurate that mine, given that
mine is 100% accurate...

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

thomas.dalton at gmail

Jul 29, 2012, 3:09 PM

Post #17 of 35 (327 views)
Permalink

Re: [Wikimedia-l] conversations between WMF and non-English projects [In reply to]

On 29 July 2012 22:57, Nathan <nawrich [at] gmail> wrote:
> Can your masters degree in mathematics point out where in Wikimedia's
> statement it said "all" or implied anything other than having met some of
> Portuguese Wikipedia's top contributors? Not sure what the big deal is.

The word "all" actually appeared in my email that Steven was replying
to. He claimed that a majority of Portuguese Wikipedians being from
Brazil contradicted my statement that not all (top) Portuguese
Wikipedians are from Brazil. That was a straw man argument, due to
"all" and "majority" not meaning the same thing.

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

steven.walling at gmail

Jul 29, 2012, 3:24 PM

Post #18 of 35 (326 views)
Permalink

Re: [Wikimedia-l] conversations between WMF and non-English projects [In reply to]

On Sun, Jul 29, 2012 at 3:07 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton [at] gmail>wrote:

> This is not a mole hill. It is the WMF (I assume intentionally, since
> you must have known better) misleading people about its activities.
> You had a particular message you wanted to give, so you described the
> activity in a way that supported that message even though that was not
> an accurate description.
>

To be clear here: I did not write that passage. I don't know who did. But
since you have descended to the level of calling people liars and quickly
hijacked one of the few positive threads of late, you can consider my
interest in your concerns on this matter to be exactly zero.

Steven
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

bdamokos at gmail

Jul 29, 2012, 3:27 PM

Post #19 of 35 (327 views)
Permalink

Re: [Wikimedia-l] conversations between WMF and non-English projects [In reply to]

On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 12:09 AM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton [at] gmail>wrote:

> On 29 July 2012 22:57, Nathan <nawrich [at] gmail> wrote:
> > Can your masters degree in mathematics point out where in Wikimedia's
> > statement it said "all" or implied anything other than having met some of
> > Portuguese Wikipedia's top contributors? Not sure what the big deal is.
>
> The word "all" actually appeared in my email that Steven was replying
> to. He claimed that a majority of Portuguese Wikipedians being from
> Brazil contradicted my statement that not all (top) Portuguese
> Wikipedians are from Brazil. That was a straw man argument, due to
> "all" and "majority" not meaning the same thing.

Given that this is a mailing list read by hundreds of people, would it make
sense to discuss this particular grammar and word choice issue on a Meta
talk page, and concentrate on the bigger issues here on the mailing list,
that might be of interest to those not involved in this discussion on
semantics?

(On the other hand, I would like to take this opportunity to applaud
everyone here; I think it is a unique achievement that our community reads
every report with such a keen eye for any factual error or exaggeration. If
the seemingly most interesting error we can find on the first day of
perusing it is the unclear distinction between 'majority' and 'all' in it,
then surely the people who put this together have done a splendid job.
Still, I would prefer, if we spent our time discussing the substance,
rather than the presentation.)

Best regards,
Bence
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

nawrich at gmail

Jul 29, 2012, 3:30 PM

Post #20 of 35 (324 views)
Permalink

Re: [Wikimedia-l] conversations between WMF and non-English projects [In reply to]

On Sun, Jul 29, 2012 at 6:07 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton [at] gmail>wrote:

> On 29 July 2012 22:48, Steven Walling <steven.walling [at] gmail> wrote:
> > On Sun, Jul 29, 2012 at 2:39 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton [at] gmail
> >wrote:
> >
> >> While I may not be involved in the Portuguese Wikipedia, I do have a
> >> masters degree in mathematics, so I can reliably inform you that
> >> "majority" is not the same as "all".
> >>
> >> The WMF tends to employ smart people, so I assume that whoever wrote
> >> that bit of the plan knew that that wasn't the most accurate way of
> >> describing the activity. So, my question to you is: why did they
> >> describe it that way? Why say "Portuguese Wikipedia’s top
> >> contributors" when "a selection of Wikipedians in Brazil" would have
> >> been far more accurate?
> >>
> >
> > You're making a mountain out of a mole hill here, Thomas. Perhaps the
> > caveat "some of" should be added to "Portuguese Wikipedia's top
> > contributors", but the current statement is more accurate than the one
> you
> > proposed, given the state of Pt Wikipedia and who came to our meetups.
>
> This is not a mole hill. It is the WMF (I assume intentionally, since
> you must have known better) misleading people about its activities.
> You had a particular message you wanted to give, so you described the
> activity in a way that supported that message even though that was not
> an accurate description.
>
> Your description is certainly not more accurate that mine, given that
> mine is 100% accurate...
>
>
This is a joke, right? You are irritated that they said "top Portuguese
Wikipedia contributors" instead of "some top Portuguese Wikipedia
contributors" because why? What motive could the WMF have had for
"misleading" you in this way? Did you mistakenly assume that this meant
they met with people in Portugal? Did you imagine that they met both
Portuguese and Brazilian contributors to the Portuguese Wikipedia on the
same trip? Please, enlighten us.
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

jayvdb at gmail

Jul 29, 2012, 3:33 PM

Post #21 of 35 (327 views)
Permalink

Re: [Wikimedia-l] conversations between WMF and non-English projects [In reply to]

On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 5:09 AM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton [at] gmail> wrote:
> On 29 July 2012 22:57, Nathan <nawrich [at] gmail> wrote:
>> Can your masters degree in mathematics point out where in Wikimedia's
>> statement it said "all" or implied anything other than having met some of
>> Portuguese Wikipedia's top contributors? Not sure what the big deal is.
>
> The word "all" actually appeared in my email that Steven was replying
> to. He claimed that a majority of Portuguese Wikipedians being from
> Brazil contradicted my statement that not all (top) Portuguese
> Wikipedians are from Brazil. That was a straw man argument, due to
> "all" and "majority" not meaning the same thing.

confirming.. there are residents of Portugal in

http://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/TablesWikipediaPT.htm#wikipedians

but the 'majority' do appear to be Brazilian. I cant easily see if
those top contributors attended the meetups at

https://blog.wikimedia.org/2012/03/22/brazil-meetups-march/

--
John Vandenberg

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

berialima at gmail

Jul 30, 2012, 6:00 AM

Post #22 of 35 (304 views)
Permalink

Re: [Wikimedia-l] conversations between WMF and non-English projects [In reply to]

Oh my dear beloved Steven, It VERY much is.

The editors who wrote the biggest number of articles is Portuguese (Nuno
Tavares), the one who run pretty much all the bots in pt wiki and is also
Adm and crat is also portuguese (Alchimista aka Andr� Barbosa), the one who
created and put foward the policy of a unified Wikipedia portuguese (the AO
version) is also Portuguese (Manuel de Sousa).

The fact is that Brasil is in the strategic planning, and Portugal isn't.
So WMF tend to forgot us.
_____
*B�ria Lima*

*Imagine um mundo onde � dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter
livre acesso ao somat�rio de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a
construir esse sonho. <http://wikimedia.pt/Donativos>*

On 29 July 2012 18:33, Steven Walling <steven.walling [at] gmail> wrote:

> On Sun, Jul 29, 2012 at 2:01 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton [at] gmail
> >wrote:
>
> >
> > That reads like it was a meeting with a selection of Brazilian
> > Wikipedians. That does not equate with "Portuguese Wikipedia�s top
> > contributors". I'm sure some of Portuguese Wikipedia�s top
> > contributors are Brazilian, but it is rather disingenuous to suggest
> > they all are.
> >
> > This was part of your outreach work to Brazil, not Portuguese
> > Wikipedia. Why describe it so inaccurately?
>
>
> I can see how you would think this if you're not involved with these
> communities, but a clear majority of the active editors on Portuguese
> Wikipedia are in fact Brazilian. The description given is not inaccurate.
>
> Steven
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> Wikimedia-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

berialima at gmail

Jul 30, 2012, 6:07 AM

Post #23 of 35 (305 views)
Permalink

Re: [Wikimedia-l] conversations between WMF and non-English projects [In reply to]

John, when those meetings happened, what they said was "we want to meet
people from Brasil" and when asked who they wanted to meet, the answer was
"anyone, doesn't matter how long you contribute or how much, we only want
to talk with the Brazilian community",so no, none of those meetings were
calls for top editors. They were called "meetups", they were advertised
that way, and they were treated that way.

And I can aso say no WMF people contact any Portuguese editor in regarding
to that (let's not say they travel there, but Skype and e-mail also exist,
and weren't used)
_____
*B�ria Lima*

*Imagine um mundo onde � dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter
livre acesso ao somat�rio de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a
construir esse sonho. <http://wikimedia.pt/Donativos>*

On 29 July 2012 19:33, John Vandenberg <jayvdb [at] gmail> wrote:

> On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 5:09 AM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton [at] gmail>
> wrote:
> > On 29 July 2012 22:57, Nathan <nawrich [at] gmail> wrote:
> >> Can your masters degree in mathematics point out where in Wikimedia's
> >> statement it said "all" or implied anything other than having met some
> of
> >> Portuguese Wikipedia's top contributors? Not sure what the big deal is.
> >
> > The word "all" actually appeared in my email that Steven was replying
> > to. He claimed that a majority of Portuguese Wikipedians being from
> > Brazil contradicted my statement that not all (top) Portuguese
> > Wikipedians are from Brazil. That was a straw man argument, due to
> > "all" and "majority" not meaning the same thing.
>
> confirming.. there are residents of Portugal in
>
> http://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/TablesWikipediaPT.htm#wikipedians
>
> but the 'majority' do appear to be Brazilian. I cant easily see if
> those top contributors attended the meetups at
>
> https://blog.wikimedia.org/2012/03/22/brazil-meetups-march/
>
> --
> John Vandenberg
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> Wikimedia-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

okeyes at wikimedia

Jul 30, 2012, 8:11 AM

Post #24 of 35 (302 views)
Permalink

Re: [Wikimedia-l] conversations between WMF and non-English projects [In reply to]

As a very general point; working out how to include non-enlang editors in
features decisions is right at the top of my "list of wicked problems to
handle". If anyone has any ideas, please shoot me an email :)

On 30 July 2012 14:07, B�ria Lima <berialima [at] gmail> wrote:

> John, when those meetings happened, what they said was "we want to meet
> people from Brasil" and when asked who they wanted to meet, the answer was
> "anyone, doesn't matter how long you contribute or how much, we only want
> to talk with the Brazilian community",so no, none of those meetings were
> calls for top editors. They were called "meetups", they were advertised
> that way, and they were treated that way.
>
> And I can aso say no WMF people contact any Portuguese editor in regarding
> to that (let's not say they travel there, but Skype and e-mail also exist,
> and weren't used)
> _____
> *B�ria Lima*
>
> *Imagine um mundo onde � dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter
> livre acesso ao somat�rio de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a
> construir esse sonho. <http://wikimedia.pt/Donativos>*
>
>
> On 29 July 2012 19:33, John Vandenberg <jayvdb [at] gmail> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 5:09 AM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton [at] gmail>
> > wrote:
> > > On 29 July 2012 22:57, Nathan <nawrich [at] gmail> wrote:
> > >> Can your masters degree in mathematics point out where in Wikimedia's
> > >> statement it said "all" or implied anything other than having met some
> > of
> > >> Portuguese Wikipedia's top contributors? Not sure what the big deal
> is.
> > >
> > > The word "all" actually appeared in my email that Steven was replying
> > > to. He claimed that a majority of Portuguese Wikipedians being from
> > > Brazil contradicted my statement that not all (top) Portuguese
> > > Wikipedians are from Brazil. That was a straw man argument, due to
> > > "all" and "majority" not meaning the same thing.
> >
> > confirming.. there are residents of Portugal in
> >
> > http://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/TablesWikipediaPT.htm#wikipedians
> >
> > but the 'majority' do appear to be Brazilian. I cant easily see if
> > those top contributors attended the meetups at
> >
> > https://blog.wikimedia.org/2012/03/22/brazil-meetups-march/
> >
> > --
> > John Vandenberg
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > Wikimedia-l [at] lists
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> Wikimedia-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>

--
Oliver Keyes
Community Liaison, Product Development
Wikimedia Foundation
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

deryckchan at wikimedia

Jul 30, 2012, 8:40 AM

Post #25 of 35 (299 views)
Permalink

Re: [Wikimedia-l] conversations between WMF and non-English projects [In reply to]

Hire someone from the local Wikipedia community to do it. This can be
integrated into the proposed "language community and cultural translation"
WMF fellow's job description.

MediaWiki feature decisions are gruesome chores. In small language project
communities the active editors typically don't involve themselves with
feature decisions until the feature is rolled out and breaks an entire
Wikipedia with one commit. (eg.
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30392 )

By hiring the local editor you can make sure they can be bothered to
involve themselves in feature decisions, and informing their local
communities about it.

Deryck

On 30 July 2012 16:11, Oliver Keyes <okeyes [at] wikimedia> wrote:

> As a very general point; working out how to include non-enlang editors in
> features decisions is right at the top of my "list of wicked problems to
> handle". If anyone has any ideas, please shoot me an email :)
>
> On 30 July 2012 14:07, Béria Lima <berialima [at] gmail> wrote:
>
> > John, when those meetings happened, what they said was "we want to meet
> > people from Brasil" and when asked who they wanted to meet, the answer
> was
> > "anyone, doesn't matter how long you contribute or how much, we only want
> > to talk with the Brazilian community",so no, none of those meetings were
> > calls for top editors. They were called "meetups", they were advertised
> > that way, and they were treated that way.
> >
> > And I can aso say no WMF people contact any Portuguese editor in
> regarding
> > to that (let's not say they travel there, but Skype and e-mail also
> exist,
> > and weren't used)
> > _____
> > *Béria Lima*
> >
> > *Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter
> > livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a
> > construir esse sonho. <http://wikimedia.pt/Donativos>*
> >
> >
> > On 29 July 2012 19:33, John Vandenberg <jayvdb [at] gmail> wrote:
> >
> > > On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 5:09 AM, Thomas Dalton <
> thomas.dalton [at] gmail>
> > > wrote:
> > > > On 29 July 2012 22:57, Nathan <nawrich [at] gmail> wrote:
> > > >> Can your masters degree in mathematics point out where in
> Wikimedia's
> > > >> statement it said "all" or implied anything other than having met
> some
> > > of
> > > >> Portuguese Wikipedia's top contributors? Not sure what the big deal
> > is.
> > > >
> > > > The word "all" actually appeared in my email that Steven was replying
> > > > to. He claimed that a majority of Portuguese Wikipedians being from
> > > > Brazil contradicted my statement that not all (top) Portuguese
> > > > Wikipedians are from Brazil. That was a straw man argument, due to
> > > > "all" and "majority" not meaning the same thing.
> > >
> > > confirming.. there are residents of Portugal in
> > >
> > > http://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/TablesWikipediaPT.htm#wikipedians
> > >
> > > but the 'majority' do appear to be Brazilian. I cant easily see if
> > > those top contributors attended the meetups at
> > >
> > > https://blog.wikimedia.org/2012/03/22/brazil-meetups-march/
> > >
> > > --
> > > John Vandenberg
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > > Wikimedia-l [at] lists
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > Wikimedia-l [at] lists
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Oliver Keyes
> Community Liaison, Product Development
> Wikimedia Foundation
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> Wikimedia-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

1 2

View All

Index | Next | Previous | View Threaded

Interested in having your list archived? Contact Gossamer Threads