Mailing List Archive: Wikipedia: Foundation

[Wikimedia-l] Updated Terms of Use

Index | Next | Previous | View Threaded

philippe at wikimedia

Apr 25, 2012, 9:26 AM

Post #1 of 18 (383 views)
Permalink

[Wikimedia-l] Updated Terms of Use

Hi everyone,

As you may be aware, Wikimedia has updated its Terms of Use. This updated
version will become effective on May 25, 2012, and can be reviewed
here<http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use_%282012%29/en>.[1]
A short overview of some of the changes is set out
here<http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/New_Terms_of_use>.
[2]

Best wishes,
Philippe

[1] - http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use_%282012%29/en
[2] - http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/New_Terms_of_use
___________________
Philippe Beaudette
Director, Community Advocacy
Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.

415-839-6885, x 6643

philippe [at] wikimedia
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

agarrett at wikimedia

Apr 26, 2012, 10:49 PM

Post #2 of 18 (371 views)
Permalink

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Updated Terms of Use [In reply to]

On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 2:26 AM, Philippe Beaudette
<philippe [at] wikimedia>wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> As you may be aware, Wikimedia has updated its Terms of Use. This updated
> version will become effective on May 25, 2012, and can be reviewed
> here<http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use_%282012%29/en>.[1]
> A short overview of some of the changes is set out
> here<http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/New_Terms_of_use>.
> [2]
>
> Best wishes,
> Philippe
>

Terms of use are boring, and most of us are pretty jaded by how
impenetrable, legalistic and, well, awful, most terms of use are on the
internet.

I want to congratulate you and your department on NOT doing this. The new
terms of use are written in clear English, well set out, and cover what
seem to be the appropriate bases without being overly verbose and cautious.

Well done, Philippe, Geoff, and everyone else.

--
Andrew Garrett
Wikimedia Foundation
agarrett [at] wikimedia
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

Birgitte_sb at yahoo

Apr 27, 2012, 4:48 PM

Post #3 of 18 (369 views)
Permalink

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Updated Terms of Use [In reply to]

On Apr 27, 2012, at 12:49 AM, Andrew Garrett <agarrett [at] wikimedia> wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 2:26 AM, Philippe Beaudette
> <philippe [at] wikimedia>wrote:
>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> As you may be aware, Wikimedia has updated its Terms of Use. This updated
>> version will become effective on May 25, 2012, and can be reviewed
>> here<http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use_%282012%29/en>.[1]
>> A short overview of some of the changes is set out
>> here<http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/New_Terms_of_use>.
>> [2]
>>
>> Best wishes,
>> Philippe
>>
>
> Terms of use are boring, and most of us are pretty jaded by how
> impenetrable, legalistic and, well, awful, most terms of use are on the
> internet.
>
> I want to congratulate you and your department on NOT doing this. The new
> terms of use are written in clear English, well set out, and cover what
> seem to be the appropriate bases without being overly verbose and cautious.
>
> Well done, Philippe, Geoff, and everyone else.
>
>

I am also impressed. It actually ends up being the best one piece introduction to what Wikimedia *is* that I have ever read. A lot of thought and consideration were soundly invested in that document. Clarity on that level is HARD, but well worth the effort. I also am thinking that the staff have just set a rather high bar for the board. Imagine if all board resolutions were written with as just as much focus on clarity and as on circumspection. These terms of use show it is possible.

Birgitte SB
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

philippe at wikimedia

Apr 27, 2012, 11:43 PM

Post #4 of 18 (367 views)
Permalink

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Updated Terms of Use [In reply to]

Birgitte, Andrew, thank you for your kind words. True credit on this one
goes to Maggie, Geoff, and the community members who worked countless hours
with them and discussed in great detail almost every word of the thing. I
think everyone involved would tell you that it was a thoughtful,
deliberative, and truly exhausting process.... but it was amazing in its
collegiality in the final product.

I'm proud to be part of the team that worked on this, but my role was
small... my hat is off to Maggie, Geoff, and all the others who
participated (below, I have listed everyone with more than 15 edits to the
talk page where it was developed.)

Community Members with more than 15 edits to the Talk page:

Geoffbrigham
Mdennis (WMF)
WhatamIdoing
Filceolaire
FT2
Peteforsyth
Michaeldsuarez
Seth Finkelstein
Angel54 5
Seb az86556
WereSpielChequers
Steven (WMF)
Rosenkohl
Esetzer
Wnt
Teofilo
Philippe (WMF)
John Vandenberg
Danhash
Rich Farmbrough
Dcoetzee
62.140.210.130
Григор Гачев

___________________
Philippe Beaudette
Director, Community Advocacy
Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.

415-839-6885, x 6643

philippe [at] wikimedia

On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 4:48 PM, <Birgitte_sb [at] yahoo> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> On Apr 27, 2012, at 12:49 AM, Andrew Garrett <agarrett [at] wikimedia>
> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 2:26 AM, Philippe Beaudette
> > <philippe [at] wikimedia>wrote:
> >
> >> Hi everyone,
> >>
> >> As you may be aware, Wikimedia has updated its Terms of Use. This
> updated
> >> version will become effective on May 25, 2012, and can be reviewed
> >> here<http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use_%282012%29/en
> >.[1]
> >> A short overview of some of the changes is set out
> >> here<http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/New_Terms_of_use>.
> >> [2]
> >>
> >> Best wishes,
> >> Philippe
> >>
> >
> > Terms of use are boring, and most of us are pretty jaded by how
> > impenetrable, legalistic and, well, awful, most terms of use are on the
> > internet.
> >
> > I want to congratulate you and your department on NOT doing this. The new
> > terms of use are written in clear English, well set out, and cover what
> > seem to be the appropriate bases without being overly verbose and
> cautious.
> >
> > Well done, Philippe, Geoff, and everyone else.
> >
> >
>
> I am also impressed. It actually ends up being the best one piece
> introduction to what Wikimedia *is* that I have ever read. A lot of
> thought and consideration were soundly invested in that document. Clarity
> on that level is HARD, but well worth the effort. I also am thinking that
> the staff have just set a rather high bar for the board. Imagine if all
> board resolutions were written with as just as much focus on clarity and as
> on circumspection. These terms of use show it is possible.
>
> Birgitte SB
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> Wikimedia-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

fflorin at wikimedia

Apr 28, 2012, 11:23 AM

Post #5 of 18 (361 views)
Permalink

[Wikimedia-l] Updated Terms of Use [In reply to]

Kudos to the community and WMF teams for creating this outstanding document!

I love the brevity, clarity -- and yes, elegance -- of your human-readable summary.

I'm amazed that you managed to fit our most important goals, rights and responsibilities into just 12 bullet points.

It's an inspiring achievement, which I will seek to emulate in my own work.

Well done, everybody!

Fabrice

__________________________________

Fabrice Florin
Product Manager,
Editor Engagement
Wikimedia Foundation
+1 (415) 839-6885 ext. 6827 work
fflorin [at] wikimedia

On Apr 28, 2012, at 5:00 AM, wikimedia-l-request [at] lists wrote:
> Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2012 23:43:04 -0700
> From: Philippe Beaudette <philippe [at] wikimedia>
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l [at] lists>
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Updated Terms of Use
> Message-ID:
> <CAPb+kY_omSnLpiT3jwHJZsLZZccVmTaHb+g84JOp2WY97_d1rA [at] mail>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Birgitte, Andrew, thank you for your kind words. True credit on this one
> goes to Maggie, Geoff, and the community members who worked countless hours
> with them and discussed in great detail almost every word of the thing. I
> think everyone involved would tell you that it was a thoughtful,
> deliberative, and truly exhausting process.... but it was amazing in its
> collegiality in the final product.
>
> I'm proud to be part of the team that worked on this, but my role was
> small... my hat is off to Maggie, Geoff, and all the others who
> participated (below, I have listed everyone with more than 15 edits to the
> talk page where it was developed.)
>
>
> Community Members with more than 15 edits to the Talk page:
>
> Geoffbrigham
> Mdennis (WMF)
> WhatamIdoing
> Filceolaire
> FT2
> Peteforsyth
> Michaeldsuarez
> Seth Finkelstein
> Angel54 5
> Seb az86556
> WereSpielChequers
> Steven (WMF)
> Rosenkohl
> Esetzer
> Wnt
> Teofilo
> Philippe (WMF)
> John Vandenberg
> Danhash
> Rich Farmbrough
> Dcoetzee
> 62.140.210.130
> ?????? ?????
>
>
> ___________________
> Philippe Beaudette
> Director, Community Advocacy
> Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.
>
> 415-839-6885, x 6643
>
> philippe [at] wikimedia
>
> On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 4:48 PM, <Birgitte_sb [at] yahoo> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Apr 27, 2012, at 12:49 AM, Andrew Garrett <agarrett [at] wikimedia>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 2:26 AM, Philippe Beaudette
>>> <philippe [at] wikimedia>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi everyone,
>>>>
>>>> As you may be aware, Wikimedia has updated its Terms of Use. This
>> updated
>>>> version will become effective on May 25, 2012, and can be reviewed
>>>> here<http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use_%282012%29/en
>>> .[1]
>>>> A short overview of some of the changes is set out
>>>> here<http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/New_Terms_of_use>.
>>>> [2]
>>>>
>>>> Best wishes,
>>>> Philippe
>>>>
>>>
>>> Terms of use are boring, and most of us are pretty jaded by how
>>> impenetrable, legalistic and, well, awful, most terms of use are on the
>>> internet.
>>>
>>> I want to congratulate you and your department on NOT doing this. The new
>>> terms of use are written in clear English, well set out, and cover what
>>> seem to be the appropriate bases without being overly verbose and
>> cautious.
>>>
>>> Well done, Philippe, Geoff, and everyone else.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I am also impressed. It actually ends up being the best one piece
>> introduction to what Wikimedia *is* that I have ever read. A lot of
>> thought and consideration were soundly invested in that document. Clarity
>> on that level is HARD, but well worth the effort. I also am thinking that
>> the staff have just set a rather high bar for the board. Imagine if all
>> board resolutions were written with as just as much focus on clarity and as
>> on circumspection. These terms of use show it is possible.
>>
>> Birgitte SB
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list
>> Wikimedia-l [at] lists
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> Wikimedia-l [at] lists
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>
>
> End of Wikimedia-l Digest, Vol 97, Issue 81
> *******************************************

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

cimonavaro at gmail

May 1, 2012, 6:20 AM

Post #6 of 18 (348 views)
Permalink

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Updated Terms of Use [In reply to]

Tell me what I am missing here. please. Do these new rules not
mean Chinese internet users are violating our terms of service,
if they evade Chinese state censorhip to view our content?

--
--
Jussi-Ville Heiskanen, ~ [[User:Cimon Avaro]]

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

cimonavaro at gmail

May 1, 2012, 6:25 AM

Post #7 of 18 (350 views)
Permalink

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Updated Terms of Use [In reply to]

Does this new TOS mean that Chinese violate WMF TOS if they
view legal US material on the Wikimedia site? In case it is against
Chinese censorship laws.

--
--
Jussi-Ville Heiskanen, ~ [[User:Cimon Avaro]]

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

richard.symonds at wikimedia

May 1, 2012, 6:34 AM

Post #8 of 18 (347 views)
Permalink

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Updated Terms of Use [In reply to]

I don't think it does say that, or if it does, I can't see where. You're
certainly liable if you break a law in your own country, but I don't think
you've broken the terms of use. It says that

> "Certain activites may subject you to liabilities... [for example] using
> the services in a manner that is inconsistent with applicable law."

This means, to my eyes, that you're potentially liable (to someone) if you
break the law in your own country - which makes perfect sense to me.

But then, I am not a lawyer, nor do I work for the WMF.

Richard Symonds
Wikimedia UK
0207 065 0992
Disclaimer viewable at
http://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia:Email_disclaimer
Visit http://www.wikimedia.org.uk/ and @wikimediauk

On 1 May 2012 14:25, Jussi-Ville Heiskanen <cimonavaro [at] gmail> wrote:

> Does this new TOS mean that Chinese violate WMF TOS if they
> view legal US material on the Wikimedia site? In case it is against
> Chinese censorship laws.
>
> --
> --
> Jussi-Ville Heiskanen, ~ [[User:Cimon Avaro]]
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> Wikimedia-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

nawrich at gmail

May 1, 2012, 6:47 AM

Post #9 of 18 (347 views)
Permalink

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Updated Terms of Use [In reply to]

Richard, you removed some relevant language:

"Certain activities, whether legal or illegal, may be harmful to other
users and violate our rules, and some activities may also subject you to
liability. Therefore, for your own protection and for that of other users, *you
may not engage in such activities on our sites*. These activities include:
[..] Using the services in a manner that is inconsistent with applicable
law."

I think that expecting the ToS to condone violations of laws that are in
some way "anti-freedom" is unrealistic. It seems like it would be difficult
to craft language to do that well.

~Nathan

On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 9:34 AM, Richard Symonds <
richard.symonds [at] wikimedia> wrote:

> I don't think it does say that, or if it does, I can't see where. You're
> certainly liable if you break a law in your own country, but I don't think
> you've broken the terms of use. It says that
>
> > "Certain activites may subject you to liabilities... [for example] using
> > the services in a manner that is inconsistent with applicable law."
>
>
> This means, to my eyes, that you're potentially liable (to someone) if you
> break the law in your own country - which makes perfect sense to me.
>
> But then, I am not a lawyer, nor do I work for the WMF.
>
> Richard Symonds
> Wikimedia UK
> 0207 065 0992
> Disclaimer viewable at
> http://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia:Email_disclaimer
> Visit http://www.wikimedia.org.uk/ and @wikimediauk
>
>
>
>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

cimonavaro at gmail

May 1, 2012, 11:38 AM

Post #10 of 18 (349 views)
Permalink

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Updated Terms of Use [In reply to]

On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 4:47 PM, Nathan <nawrich [at] gmail> wrote:
> Richard, you removed some relevant language:
>
> "Certain activities, whether legal or illegal, may be harmful to other
> users and violate our rules, and some activities may also subject you to
> liability. Therefore, for your own protection and for that of other users, *you
> may not engage in such activities on our sites*. These activities include:
> [..] Using the services in a manner that is inconsistent with applicable
> law."
>
>
> I think that expecting the ToS to condone violations of laws that are in
> some way "anti-freedom" is unrealistic. It seems like it would be difficult
> to craft language to do that well.
>
> ~Nathan

Would you like an opportunity to phrase that language in a sense that does
not suggest Wikimedia is in support of laws that are "anti-freedom"?

--
--
Jussi-Ville Heiskanen, ~ [[User:Cimon Avaro]]

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

Birgitte_sb at yahoo

May 3, 2012, 5:17 AM

Post #11 of 18 (336 views)
Permalink

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Updated Terms of Use [In reply to]

On May 1, 2012, at 1:38 PM, Jussi-Ville Heiskanen <cimonavaro [at] gmail> wrote:

> On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 4:47 PM, Nathan <nawrich [at] gmail> wrote:
>> Richard, you removed some relevant language:
>>
>> "Certain activities, whether legal or illegal, may be harmful to other
>> users and violate our rules, and some activities may also subject you to
>> liability. Therefore, for your own protection and for that of other users, *you
>> may not engage in such activities on our sites*. These activities include:
>> [..] Using the services in a manner that is inconsistent with applicable
>> law."
>>
>>
>> I think that expecting the ToS to condone violations of laws that are in
>> some way "anti-freedom" is unrealistic. It seems like it would be difficult
>> to craft language to do that well.
>>
>> ~Nathan
>
> Would you like an opportunity to phrase that language in a sense that does
> not suggest Wikimedia is in support of laws that are "anti-freedom"?
>
> --
> --
> Jussi-Ville Heiskanen, ~ [[User:Cimon Avaro]]
>
>

It seems to be that the point of this section is that WMF does not condone users to use the sites in a fashion which breaks their local laws; therefore WMF itself may not be procesuted for conspiracy nor will WMF be liable civilly to users who were prosecuted locally and wish to recieve compensation. If the WMF did not disavow an intention to promote locally illegal things (like Germans printing Swatika images found on Commons), they would be open to liability that would result money going to lawyers. Really very, very few countries have a right to free speech as strong as the US, including countries were WMF actually has significant assets. China is not the issue here. Encouraging people outside the US to live as though they live inside it, is neither wise nor ethical.

BirgitteSB
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

Birgitte_sb at yahoo

May 3, 2012, 5:25 AM

Post #12 of 18 (336 views)
Permalink

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Updated Terms of Use [In reply to]

On May 3, 2012, at 7:17 AM, Birgitte_sb [at] yahoo wrote:

>
>
>
>
> On May 1, 2012, at 1:38 PM, Jussi-Ville Heiskanen <cimonavaro [at] gmail> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 4:47 PM, Nathan <nawrich [at] gmail> wrote:
>>> Richard, you removed some relevant language:
>>>
>>> "Certain activities, whether legal or illegal, may be harmful to other
>>> users and violate our rules, and some activities may also subject you to
>>> liability. Therefore, for your own protection and for that of other users, *you
>>> may not engage in such activities on our sites*. These activities include:
>>> [..] Using the services in a manner that is inconsistent with applicable
>>> law."
>>>
>>>
>>> I think that expecting the ToS to condone violations of laws that are in
>>> some way "anti-freedom" is unrealistic. It seems like it would be difficult
>>> to craft language to do that well.
>>>
>>> ~Nathan
>>
>> Would you like an opportunity to phrase that language in a sense that does
>> not suggest Wikimedia is in support of laws that are "anti-freedom"?
>>
>> --
>> --
>> Jussi-Ville Heiskanen, ~ [[User:Cimon Avaro]]
>>
>>
>
> It seems to be that the point of this section is that WMF does not condone users to use the sites in a fashion which breaks their local laws; therefore WMF itself may not be procesuted for conspiracy nor will WMF be liable civilly to users who were prosecuted locally and wish to recieve compensation. If the WMF did not disavow an intention to promote locally illegal things (like Germans printing Swatika images found on Commons), they would be open to liability that would result money going to lawyers. Really very, very few countries have a right to free speech as strong as the US, including countries were WMF actually has significant assets. China is not the issue here. Encouraging people outside the US to live as though they live inside it, is neither wise nor ethical.
>
>

Which is all slightly different from WMF actually making technically impossible to circumvent local anti-freedom laws.

BirgitteSB

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

nemowiki at gmail

May 3, 2012, 6:45 AM

Post #13 of 18 (337 views)
Permalink

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Updated Terms of Use [In reply to]

Birgitte_sb [at] yahoo, 03/05/2012 14:17:
> Encouraging people outside the US to live as though they live inside it, is neither wise nor ethical.

On the other hand, this is what happens (o could have happened) in other
parts of the Terms of use which apply to /users/ (not their
contributions) the USA laws where they're more restrictive. The whole
section "Refraining from Certain Activities" has this problem, which is
very hard to avoid given that nobody really knows what the "applicable
law" is. There was a lot of work on this part as well, I'm not able to
judge the results.
Both problems originate from the decision to enforce via a private
contract the state laws (privatization of justice or statement of the
obvious? I don't know). The old ToU left everything implicit (or were
reticent, depending on how you see it).

Nemo

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

nawrich at gmail

May 3, 2012, 7:03 AM

Post #14 of 18 (336 views)
Permalink

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Updated Terms of Use [In reply to]

On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 9:45 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) <nemowiki [at] gmail>wrote:

> Birgitte_sb [at] yahoo, 03/05/2012 14:17:
>
> Encouraging people outside the US to live as though they live inside it,
>> is neither wise nor ethical.
>>
>
> On the other hand, this is what happens (o could have happened) in other
> parts of the Terms of use which apply to /users/ (not their contributions)
> the USA laws where they're more restrictive. The whole section "Refraining
> from Certain Activities" has this problem, which is very hard to avoid
> given that nobody really knows what the "applicable law" is. There was a
> lot of work on this part as well, I'm not able to judge the results.
> Both problems originate from the decision to enforce via a private
> contract the state laws (privatization of justice or statement of the
> obvious? I don't know). The old ToU left everything implicit (or were
> reticent, depending on how you see it).
>
> Nemo
>

It only makes sense to be somewhat explicit about the laws that apply,
since they apply regardless of their presence in the ToU.
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

Birgitte_sb at yahoo

May 3, 2012, 8:41 PM

Post #15 of 18 (334 views)
Permalink

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Updated Terms of Use [In reply to]

On May 3, 2012, at 9:03 AM, Nathan <nawrich [at] gmail> wrote:

> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 9:45 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) <nemowiki [at] gmail>wrote:
>
>> Birgitte_sb [at] yahoo, 03/05/2012 14:17:
>>
>> Encouraging people outside the US to live as though they live inside it,
>>> is neither wise nor ethical.
>>>
>>
>> On the other hand, this is what happens (o could have happened) in other
>> parts of the Terms of use which apply to /users/ (not their contributions)
>> the USA laws where they're more restrictive. The whole section "Refraining
>> from Certain Activities" has this problem, which is very hard to avoid
>> given that nobody really knows what the "applicable law" is. There was a
>> lot of work on this part as well, I'm not able to judge the results.
>> Both problems originate from the decision to enforce via a private
>> contract the state laws (privatization of justice or statement of the
>> obvious? I don't know). The old ToU left everything implicit (or were
>> reticent, depending on how you see it).
>>
>> Nemo
>>
>
> It only makes sense to be somewhat explicit about the laws that apply,
> since they apply regardless of their presence in the ToU.
>

Not only does it make sense; but I also strongly believe that choosing ambiguity in order to preserve plausible deniability can never be the ethical choice.

We all are aware that users of the wikis are placing themselves at risk by participating. That there risk in just reading. This awareness is at the root of data retention, data sharing, and the privacy effects of new features being a perennial topic of conversation. To purposefully choose to neglect to share this awareness with the full range of users reading the terms of use, an audience much larger than this mailing list, cannot be ethical.

Perhaps some strong idealists would feel more comfortable if these unpleasant facts of reality were instead "made" implicit. If WMF's name were not signed in acknowledgement of these unpleasant realities. But I firmly believe that there is a much stronger obligation toward the flesh-and-blood users who are living in the world as it is, than toward any ideal of the perfect world that is not. But then again, I am no idealist.

Birgitte SB
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

Birgitte_sb at yahoo

May 3, 2012, 8:41 PM

Post #16 of 18 (334 views)
Permalink

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Updated Terms of Use [In reply to]

philippe at wikimedia

May 3, 2012, 8:48 PM

Post #17 of 18 (336 views)
Permalink

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Updated Terms of Use [In reply to]

Hi everyone,

I don't believe the Terms are meant to expressly adopt all foreign laws
outside the United States. The community discussed the phrase "applicable
law" a few times during the drafting process. The Terms of Use only
expressly call out the United States as applicable law in the Overview
section and section 1(b). There is no express adoption of another foreign
law by name: the Terms of Use only use the word "may" for laws other than
the United States, simply putting users on notice of their possible
application.

Along those lines, the Terms of Use (Section 1(b)) do try to provide a fair
warning to our users about their local laws and enforcement by government
authorities. Specifically, the Terms say in Section 1(b): "Although we may
not agree with such actions, we warn editors and contributors that
authorities may seek to apply other country laws to you, including local
laws where you live or where you view or edit content."

Furthermore, in the last paragraph of section 4, WMF reserves the
discretion to enforce that section which governs certain behaviors on the
sites. Considering the totality of the circumstances, the WMF wouldn't try
to enforce section 4 (or any other parts of the Terms of Use) in a way that
was not aligned with our mission. For example, we would never try to use
the Terms against a dissident in a censored country who tries to express
himself or herself truthfully and freely on-wiki, in violation of their
local laws.

(As pointed out during the drafting process, this provision is consistent
with other like-minded organizations' terms. Creative Commons,[0] the
Internet Archive,[1] and the Open Source Initiative's[2] terms, for
example, require users to comply with "applicable" laws.)

Thanks,
pb

0. https://creativecommons.org/terms (Section 7)
1. http://archive.org/about/terms.php (Paragraph 3)
2. http://www.opensource.org/ToS (Section 5)

___________________
Philippe Beaudette
Director, Community Advocacy
Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.

415-839-6885, x 6643

philippe [at] wikimedia

On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 7:03 AM, Nathan <nawrich [at] gmail> wrote:

> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 9:45 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) <nemowiki [at] gmail
> >wrote:
>
> > Birgitte_sb [at] yahoo, 03/05/2012 14:17:
> >
> > Encouraging people outside the US to live as though they live inside it,
> >> is neither wise nor ethical.
> >>
> >
> > On the other hand, this is what happens (o could have happened) in other
> > parts of the Terms of use which apply to /users/ (not their
> contributions)
> > the USA laws where they're more restrictive. The whole section
> "Refraining
> > from Certain Activities" has this problem, which is very hard to avoid
> > given that nobody really knows what the "applicable law" is. There was a
> > lot of work on this part as well, I'm not able to judge the results.
> > Both problems originate from the decision to enforce via a private
> > contract the state laws (privatization of justice or statement of the
> > obvious? I don't know). The old ToU left everything implicit (or were
> > reticent, depending on how you see it).
> >
> > Nemo
> >
>
> It only makes sense to be somewhat explicit about the laws that apply,
> since they apply regardless of their presence in the ToU.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> Wikimedia-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

cimonavaro at gmail

May 4, 2012, 3:07 AM

Post #18 of 18 (336 views)
Permalink

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Updated Terms of Use [In reply to]

On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 6:48 AM, Philippe Beaudette
<philippe [at] wikimedia> wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> I don't believe the Terms are meant to expressly adopt all foreign laws
> outside the United States. The community discussed the phrase "applicable
> law" a few times during the drafting process. The Terms of Use only
> expressly call out the United States as applicable law in the Overview
> section and section 1(b). There is no express adoption of another foreign
> law by name: the Terms of Use only use the word "may" for laws other than
> the United States, simply putting users on notice of their possible
> application.
>
> Along those lines, the Terms of Use (Section 1(b)) do try to provide a fair
> warning to our users about their local laws and enforcement by government
> authorities. Specifically, the Terms say in Section 1(b): "Although we may
> not agree with such actions, we warn editors and contributors that
> authorities may seek to apply other country laws to you, including local
> laws where you live or where you view or edit content."
>
> Furthermore, in the last paragraph of section 4, WMF reserves the
> discretion to enforce that section which governs certain behaviors on the
> sites. Considering the totality of the circumstances, the WMF wouldn't try
> to enforce section 4 (or any other parts of the Terms of Use) in a way that
> was not aligned with our mission. For example, we would never try to use
> the Terms against a dissident in a censored country who tries to express
> himself or herself truthfully and freely on-wiki, in violation of their
> local laws.
>
> (As pointed out during the drafting process, this provision is consistent
> with other like-minded organizations' terms. Creative Commons,[0] the
> Internet Archive,[1] and the Open Source Initiative's[2] terms, for
> example, require users to comply with "applicable" laws.)
>
> Thanks,
> pb
>

I really do not want to be thought of as a --me too person--
but in this case the sentiment is well deserved. I
subscribe to everything above, with all my being. Thanks.

and do not mind being told off...

--
--
Jussi-Ville Heiskanen, ~ [[User:Cimon Avaro]]

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

Index | Next | Previous | View Threaded

Interested in having your list archived? Contact Gossamer Threads