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Blackout at Italian Wikipedia

 

 

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morton.thomas at googlemail

Oct 4, 2011, 8:47 AM

Post #26 of 126 (1867 views)
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Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

>
> Does the proposed law say who is responsible for compliance? I would
> be surprised if it was anyone other than the WMF.


The website owner (it's very clear over this), the website owner is also
directly responsible for non-compliance.

Legally speaking,
> we're all just users of the website. We're responsible for our own
> actions, of course, but not for anything else. I doubt Italian law
> sees it any differently.


Personally I couldn't 100% say that this law is something that could be
turned onto an individual in civil litigation - but equally I see no reason
that it could be used in that way. Much easier to sue under standard
defamation laws (which we are under risk of daily anyway!).

As more of this comes to light it seems to be a protest, rather than
realisation of a fear or an actual direct threat.

Which is fine - but as pointed out - locking the whole Wiki is rather
dramatic & self-serving :S

Tom
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jalo75 at gmail

Oct 4, 2011, 9:00 AM

Post #27 of 126 (1877 views)
Permalink
Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

>
> Does the proposed law say who is responsible for compliance? I would be
> surprised if it was anyone other than the WMF. Legally speaking, we're all
> just users of the website


Maybe you're right, but it's not so obvious. [Sorry for my english] There is
a lawsuit opened by a person against WMItaly, 'cause wikipedia was stating
something against him (all referenced).

WMItaly is not related to it.wikip, but the lawsuit is brought, and we have
to spend money for lawyers 'till the lawsuit conclusion.

It'll be the same for this law. Italian police will get my name using my IP,
the italian political will bring a lawsuit against me 'cause I didn't
published his amendment, and I'll have to spend money (too much money, to
me) 'till the judge will says he's a stupid.

I cannot do this, almost all it.wikip users cannot do, and so I'll stop
contributing.

I remember you, if it's necessary, that the amendment must be published
without comment and unmodifiable, so we'll have to block all articles in
which an amandment is required (almost all politicals articles, sport
players articles, merchandising sellers articles and so on).

Jalo
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nemowiki at gmail

Oct 4, 2011, 9:03 AM

Post #28 of 126 (1867 views)
Permalink
Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

Thomas Morton, 04/10/2011 15:23:
> In the modern world countries love to try it on and apply their internet
> laws across the world. Fortunately courts tend to give that short shrift.

48 h deadline for correction and fines don't need a court; nor does the
police to summon and interrogate a sysop (as they've just done for the
italian uncyclopedia); and by the way, italian trials are deadly slow
and expensive.

Nemo

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jalo75 at gmail

Oct 4, 2011, 9:04 AM

Post #29 of 126 (1866 views)
Permalink
Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

>
> Much easier to sue under standard defamation laws (which we are under risk
> of daily anyway!).
>

Not at all! In the italian laws, if you bring lawsuit against me for
defamation, you must prove I'm not saying the truth.

With this law you can bring lawsuit against me simply 'cause I've not
published your amendment within 48 hours, true or false. You've not to prove
anything
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nemowiki at gmail

Oct 4, 2011, 9:12 AM

Post #30 of 126 (1866 views)
Permalink
Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

A couple of English articles on the new law:
<https://www.pcworld.com/article/240840/italian_internet_activists_protest_proposed_law.html>
<http://www.internetevolution.com/author.asp?section_id=852&doc_id=234086>

Also, I'm not involved in the strike, but the WMF has been somehow
informed by the organizers.

Nemo

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nemowiki at gmail

Oct 4, 2011, 9:43 AM

Post #31 of 126 (1858 views)
Permalink
Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

Jalo, 04/10/2011 18:04:
> Not at all! In the italian laws, if you bring lawsuit against me for
> defamation, you must prove I'm not saying the truth.

Not really: freedom of press/expression is not so broad in Italy,
there's no "exceptio veritatis" (in short truth is not important) for
"diffamazione", "calunnia" is another thing. IANAL

> With this law you can bring lawsuit against me simply 'cause I've not
> published your amendment within 48 hours, true or false. You've not to prove
> anything

But the point stays. :-)

Nemo

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mathias.schindler at gmail

Oct 4, 2011, 12:32 PM

Post #32 of 126 (1862 views)
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Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 14:56, Tomasz Ganicz <polimerek [at] gmail> wrote:
> 2011/10/4 Thomas Morton <morton.thomas [at] googlemail>:
>> I think this is a prime opportunity to point out to those concerned:
>> Wikipedia is hosted in the US :) so no need to worry!
>>
>
> Are you sure? Contributors lives mainly in Italy, so they have to
> follow Italian law.

Every individual contributor should abide by the laws of the country
he lives, operates or has property in.

Mathias

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de10011 at gmail

Oct 4, 2011, 12:37 PM

Post #33 of 126 (1865 views)
Permalink
Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

For those not following, Italian Wikipedia went into lockdown a while ago.
All content and pages direct to the notice.

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Comunicato_4_ottobre_2011

Regards
Theo


On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 1:02 AM, Mathias Schindler <
mathias.schindler [at] gmail> wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 14:56, Tomasz Ganicz <polimerek [at] gmail> wrote:
> > 2011/10/4 Thomas Morton <morton.thomas [at] googlemail>:
> >> I think this is a prime opportunity to point out to those concerned:
> >> Wikipedia is hosted in the US :) so no need to worry!
> >>
> >
> > Are you sure? Contributors lives mainly in Italy, so they have to
> > follow Italian law.
>
> Every individual contributor should abide by the laws of the country
> he lives, operates or has property in.
>
> Mathias
>
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nawrich at gmail

Oct 4, 2011, 12:52 PM

Post #34 of 126 (1863 views)
Permalink
Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 3:37 PM, Theo10011 <de10011 [at] gmail> wrote:
> For those not following, Italian Wikipedia went into lockdown a while ago.
> All content and pages direct to the notice.
>
> http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Comunicato_4_ottobre_2011
>
> Regards
> Theo
>
>


Any news coverage?

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de10011 at gmail

Oct 4, 2011, 12:57 PM

Post #35 of 126 (1860 views)
Permalink
Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 1:22 AM, Nathan <nawrich [at] gmail> wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 3:37 PM, Theo10011 <de10011 [at] gmail> wrote:
> > For those not following, Italian Wikipedia went into lockdown a while
> ago.
> > All content and pages direct to the notice.
> >
> > http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Comunicato_4_ottobre_2011
> >
> > Regards
> > Theo
> >
> >
>
>
> Any news coverage?
>

Yes, from what I heard it is getting a lot of local coverage.

http://www.repubblica.it/politica/2011/10/04/news/wikipedia_in_bianco_contro_le_intercettazioni-22703312/?ref=HREC1-1

http://www.corriere.it/politica/11_ottobre_04/wikipedia-italia-bavaglio_b4a6c60a-eeb7-11e0-bc1a-2283ac81b740.shtml

Only a matter of time, till it gets international coverage.

Regards
Theo
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millosh at gmail

Oct 4, 2011, 12:57 PM

Post #36 of 126 (1864 views)
Permalink
Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

One in English:
http://www.businessinsider.com/italy-wikipedia-wiretapping-2011-10

On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 21:57, Theo10011 <de10011 [at] gmail> wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 1:22 AM, Nathan <nawrich [at] gmail> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 3:37 PM, Theo10011 <de10011 [at] gmail> wrote:
>> > For those not following, Italian Wikipedia went into lockdown a while
>> ago.
>> > All content and pages direct to the notice.
>> >
>> > http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Comunicato_4_ottobre_2011
>> >
>> > Regards
>> > Theo
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> Any news coverage?
>>
>
> Yes, from what I heard it is getting a lot of local coverage.
>
> http://www.repubblica.it/politica/2011/10/04/news/wikipedia_in_bianco_contro_le_intercettazioni-22703312/?ref=HREC1-1
>
> http://www.corriere.it/politica/11_ottobre_04/wikipedia-italia-bavaglio_b4a6c60a-eeb7-11e0-bc1a-2283ac81b740.shtml
>
> Only a matter of time, till it gets international coverage.
>
> Regards
> Theo
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>

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aaron.adrignola at gmail

Oct 4, 2011, 12:58 PM

Post #37 of 126 (1865 views)
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Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

Whoever has locked out access to it.wikipedia.org should be immediately
desysopped under emergency procedures. This site is run by the Wikimedia
Foundation and I've seen no authorization by the WMF for the vandalism of
one of its websites.
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millosh at gmail

Oct 4, 2011, 1:02 PM

Post #38 of 126 (1865 views)
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Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 21:58, Aaron Adrignola <aaron.adrignola [at] gmail> wrote:
> Whoever has locked out access to it.wikipedia.org should be immediately
> desysopped under emergency procedures.  This site is run by the Wikimedia
> Foundation and I've seen no authorization by the WMF for the vandalism of
> one of its websites.

In Europe, people are able to strike.

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morton.thomas at googlemail

Oct 4, 2011, 1:05 PM

Post #39 of 126 (1860 views)
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Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

This is going to be a PR nightmare :-s

Tom Morton

On 4 Oct 2011, at 20:58, Aaron Adrignola <aaron.adrignola [at] gmail> wrote:

> Whoever has locked out access to it.wikipedia.org should be immediately
> desysopped under emergency procedures. This site is run by the Wikimedia
> Foundation and I've seen no authorization by the WMF for the vandalism of
> one of its websites.
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de10011 at gmail

Oct 4, 2011, 1:06 PM

Post #40 of 126 (1865 views)
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Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 1:35 AM, Thomas Morton
<morton.thomas [at] googlemail>wrote:

> This is going to be a PR nightmare :-s
>
> Tom Morton
>
> On 4 Oct 2011, at 20:58, Aaron Adrignola <aaron.adrignola [at] gmail>
> wrote:
>
> > Whoever has locked out access to it.wikipedia.org should be immediately
> > desysopped under emergency procedures. This site is run by the Wikimedia
> > Foundation and I've seen no authorization by the WMF for the vandalism of
> > one of its websites.
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l [at] lists
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>
The IRC channels are going insane because of this. This is likely to lead to
a lot of PR, does WMF have a position on this?

Theo
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jayvdb at gmail

Oct 4, 2011, 1:08 PM

Post #41 of 126 (1854 views)
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Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

The redirect is not working properly on the secure website.

Go to
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/it/wiki/Wikipedia:Comunicato_4_ottobre_2011

and then hit random page

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/it/wiki/Speciale:PaginaCasuale

that takes the reader to:

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Comunicato_4_ottobre_2011

--
John Vandenberg

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teun.spaans at gmail

Oct 4, 2011, 1:15 PM

Post #42 of 126 (1857 views)
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Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

Isn't this premature? As I understand, the law is still being discussed, not
yet in affect.

On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 9:37 PM, Theo10011 <de10011 [at] gmail> wrote:

> For those not following, Italian Wikipedia went into lockdown a while ago.
> All content and pages direct to the notice.
>
> http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Comunicato_4_ottobre_2011
>
> Regards
> Theo
>
>
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neil at thebabbages

Oct 4, 2011, 1:15 PM

Post #43 of 126 (1862 views)
Permalink
Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

Yes they are able to strike, but that still doesn't give them the right
(legal or moral) to shut down property that doesn't belong to them. In
any case, if the servers are located in the US then US law applies to
their management.

On 04/10/2011 21:02, Milos Rancic wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 21:58, Aaron Adrignola<aaron.adrignola [at] gmail> wrote:
>> Whoever has locked out access to it.wikipedia.org should be immediately
>> desysopped under emergency procedures. This site is run by the Wikimedia
>> Foundation and I've seen no authorization by the WMF for the vandalism of
>> one of its websites.
> In Europe, people are able to strike.
>
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nawrich at gmail

Oct 4, 2011, 1:19 PM

Post #44 of 126 (1861 views)
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Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 4:15 PM, teun spaans <teun.spaans [at] gmail> wrote:
> Isn't this premature? As I understand, the law is still being discussed, not
> yet in affect.
>

It's a protest, they are hoping to influence whether the law is passed or not.

~Nathan

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millosh at gmail

Oct 4, 2011, 1:19 PM

Post #45 of 126 (1861 views)
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Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 22:15, Neil Babbage <neil [at] thebabbages> wrote:
> Yes they are able to strike, but that still doesn't give them the right
> (legal or moral) to shut down property that doesn't belong to them. In
> any case, if the servers are located in the US then US law applies to
> their management.

You are right just if you use the strict sense of the term "property".
In not so strict sense, community around Italian Wikipedia is owner of
that "property", as well. And that's clear to WMF Board, as well.

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jalo75 at gmail

Oct 4, 2011, 1:24 PM

Post #46 of 126 (1861 views)
Permalink
Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

>
> Isn't this premature? As I understand, the law is still being discussed,
> not
>
yet in affect.
>

If the law passes, it'll be too late
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mathias.schindler at gmail

Oct 4, 2011, 1:25 PM

Post #47 of 126 (1867 views)
Permalink
Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 22:19, Nathan <nawrich [at] gmail> wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 4:15 PM, teun spaans <teun.spaans [at] gmail> wrote:
>> Isn't this premature? As I understand, the law is still being discussed, not
>> yet in affect.
>>
>
> It's a protest, they are hoping to influence whether the law is passed or not.

How many inches are we away from keeping a list of politicians and
parties we endorse in national, state and regional elections?

Mathias

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morton.thomas at googlemail

Oct 4, 2011, 1:25 PM

Post #48 of 126 (1861 views)
Permalink
Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

Lengthy and critical email on why this is a flabbergasting response...

At this time we now have a Wikipedia taking a political position, and indeed
political action. In essence they have made an operational decision and
abused their autonomy as a Wikipedia within the foundation.

Don't get me wrong, if the editing community want to strike and make noise
(say, a site notice) then I am 100% behind their right to do that. Removing
access to Wikipedia is a huge step beyond.

Our primary mission is to provide a knowledge service to the world; and they
have now removed that from Italians (in their native language).

And lets examine the reasons...

Sure, there is a legitimate base to their concerns. But have these questions
be answered:

- Have they had legal advice? From my semi-legal reading of the material
this is not something that will bite them, but that certainly needs to be
clarified.

- Were the foundation informed before today? (and if not why has there been
no response??)

- Why was the wider community not informed till, basically, after the fact.
This is something we could definitely have helped with.

There is no indication that there is an extant threat to any editors of
Italian Wikipedia, or indeed any immediate risk. This is purely a protest
against an (admittedly silly) upcoming law. And as a protest it is
disappointing, against community ideals (of neutrality) and a potential PR
nightmare (once the mainstream media pick up it will be pitched as
"Wikipedia restricting access to Italy in protest over new laws" - which is
a disastrous headline...

Abusing their situation having being trusted with autonomous control of a
large internet property is just disappointing.

Fight this; but do it right.

I have a further question; where the hell are the foundation? It has been
stony silence all afternoon on what is clearly an urgent situation. That,
also, is flabbergasting :S


Tom
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jalo75 at gmail

Oct 4, 2011, 1:28 PM

Post #49 of 126 (1866 views)
Permalink
Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

>
> In any case, if the servers are located in the US then US law applies to
>
their management.
>

No. Italian citizens that operates wiki (uses a pc) in Italy must follow
both italian and US law

Jalo
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valdelli at gmail

Oct 4, 2011, 1:29 PM

Post #50 of 126 (1870 views)
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Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

On 04.10.2011 22:19, Nathan wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 4:15 PM, teun spaans<teun.spaans [at] gmail> wrote:
>> Isn't this premature? As I understand, the law is still being discussed, not
>> yet in affect.
>>
> It's a protest, they are hoping to influence whether the law is passed or not.
>
> ~Nathan

When you write in Wikipedia, you are the main actor of your culture. You
are an "active" member of the culture and you are not a spectator.

When you see that someone is killing the freedom and it's forcing to
don't be an actor of the free culture and he would steer the culture,
you have only two choices: or to be passive and to stop to write, or to
be active and to understand that you can defend your rights.

Ilario

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