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Blackout at Italian Wikipedia

 

 

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de10011 at gmail

Oct 4, 2011, 5:46 AM

Post #1 of 126 (4511 views)
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Blackout at Italian Wikipedia

Hi

There seems to be a situation developing at Italian Wikipedia related to a
local law that would infringe neutrality on Wikipedia. The discussions even
mention a possible blackout/lockdown in reaction.

Is anyone aware of this situation? Is it likely to have any effect on other
projects and outside communities? Is WMF aware since it is mentioned in the
discussion as well.

The announcement that was linked to on IRC:
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utente:Vituzzu/comunicato/en

A discussion which might be relevant:
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bar/Discussioni/Comma_29_e_Wikipedia


Theo
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morton.thomas at googlemail

Oct 4, 2011, 5:54 AM

Post #2 of 126 (4419 views)
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Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

I think this is a prime opportunity to point out to those concerned:
Wikipedia is hosted in the US :) so no need to worry!

Tom
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polimerek at gmail

Oct 4, 2011, 5:56 AM

Post #3 of 126 (4414 views)
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Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

2011/10/4 Thomas Morton <morton.thomas [at] googlemail>:
> I think this is a prime opportunity to point out to those concerned:
> Wikipedia is hosted in the US :) so no need to worry!
>

Are you sure? Contributors lives mainly in Italy, so they have to
follow Italian law.



--
Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
http://www.cbmm.lodz.pl/work.php?id=29&title=tomasz-ganicz

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wikitanvir at gmail

Oct 4, 2011, 5:57 AM

Post #4 of 126 (4422 views)
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Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

>
> I think this is a prime opportunity to point out to those concerned:
> Wikipedia is hosted in the US :) so no need to worry!
>

They can block Italian Wikipedia in Italy, right? If so, it is a concern.

--
Tanvir Rahman
Wikitanvir on Wikimedia
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polimerek at gmail

Oct 4, 2011, 6:02 AM

Post #5 of 126 (4418 views)
Permalink
Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

2011/10/4 Tanvir Rahman <wikitanvir [at] gmail>:
>>
>> I think this is a prime opportunity to point out to those concerned:
>> Wikipedia is hosted in the US :) so no need to worry!
>>
>
> They can block Italian Wikipedia in Italy, right? If so, it is a concern.
>

The other issue is, that if you are italian citizen and have admin
account anyone at any moment can ask you to change/delete content on
the basis on this new law, and if you fail to do it within 48 hrs.you
are commiting a kind of crime.



--
Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
http://www.cbmm.lodz.pl/work.php?id=29&title=tomasz-ganicz

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morton.thomas at googlemail

Oct 4, 2011, 6:02 AM

Post #6 of 126 (4417 views)
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Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

On 4 October 2011 13:56, Tomasz Ganicz <polimerek [at] gmail> wrote:

> 2011/10/4 Thomas Morton <morton.thomas [at] googlemail>:
> > I think this is a prime opportunity to point out to those concerned:
> > Wikipedia is hosted in the US :) so no need to worry!
> >
>
> Are you sure? Contributors lives mainly in Italy, so they have to
> follow Italian law.
>
>
>
Unless I have mistaken the law (I admit my Italian is shaky at best, and my
tame Italian is in a mood with me) this applies to websites, not people.

There does not seem to be any provision under the law to sue or otherwise
harass people that add stuff the company/individual etc. objects to.

I could be wrong; but this looks a lot like a case of getting an email
saying "make this change at once, under Italian law XXX" and us responding
"Actually, no, sorry - but can we work this out via discussion?"
Tom
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valdelli at gmail

Oct 4, 2011, 6:03 AM

Post #7 of 126 (4416 views)
Permalink
Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

An official statement will be published in Foundation-l.

The question is that the server are in USA, but for the penal law it's
sufficient to edit from the Italian country.

I am in a special situation because I live in Switzerland and I
publish in USA servers, but for the main numbers of Italian editors
the question is not so easy.

Ilario

On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 2:56 PM, Tomasz Ganicz <polimerek [at] gmail> wrote:
> 2011/10/4 Thomas Morton <morton.thomas [at] googlemail>:
>> I think this is a prime opportunity to point out to those concerned:
>> Wikipedia is hosted in the US :) so no need to worry!
>>
>
> Are you sure? Contributors lives mainly in Italy, so they have to
> follow Italian law.
>
>
>
> --
> Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
> http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
> http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
> http://www.cbmm.lodz.pl/work.php?id=29&title=tomasz-ganicz
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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risker.wp at gmail

Oct 4, 2011, 6:09 AM

Post #8 of 126 (4427 views)
Permalink
Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

On 4 October 2011 08:57, Tanvir Rahman <wikitanvir [at] gmail> wrote:

> >
> > I think this is a prime opportunity to point out to those concerned:
> > Wikipedia is hosted in the US :) so no need to worry!
> >
>
> They can block Italian Wikipedia in Italy, right? If so, it is a concern.
>
>

Perhaps someone who can understand Italian well might be able to provide a
brief summary of the situation to those of us who, sadly, depend on google
translate? I am unclear what the "new" law says that is leading
Italian-speaking Wikipedians to consider a blackout of the Italian
Wikipedia.

Risker
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morton.thomas at googlemail

Oct 4, 2011, 6:11 AM

Post #9 of 126 (4418 views)
Permalink
Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

On 4 October 2011 14:03, Ilario Valdelli <valdelli [at] gmail> wrote:

> An official statement will be published in Foundation-l.
>
> The question is that the server are in USA, but for the penal law it's
> sufficient to edit from the Italian country.
>
> I am in a special situation because I live in Switzerland and I
> publish in USA servers, but for the main numbers of Italian editors
> the question is not so easy.


It's an interesting (and very idiotic) new law for sure.

From my latter reading it quite clear distinguishes that the *owner* or
*webmaster* is liable.

As with a lot of laws/internet stuff it kind of falls apart when faced with
something like a Wiki. But I doubt this is worth being too concerned about.

Campaign against it certainly, point out how problematic it becomes. But
don't lose sleep :)

Tom
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pap3rinik at gmail

Oct 4, 2011, 6:12 AM

Post #10 of 126 (4416 views)
Permalink
Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

Hello,

Here are the facts: the Italian parliament will discuss within few days –
and most likely approve – a law which, among the other things, will
introduce the duty, for every web site (included, and not limited to,
Wikipedia) to publish amendments to previously published information.

According to the proposal (
http://www.senato.it/service/PDF/PDFServer/BGT/00484629.pdf), the required
amendment cannot be modified, nor commented, and must be placed in article’s
body, in the same format and with the same visibility of the allegedly
defaming text.
Moreover: the amendment must be published upon every request, without taking
into account whether the information is true or not and whether references
are available for it or not.

Also, please, be aware of the fact that (as for the recent Google and
Microsoft cases) the principle that the proposed law is going to introduce
will be applicable to “all” sites, not only Italian’s: if somebody from
Italy will post any information on, say, en.wikip, the rule will make it
mandatory for en.wikip to post an amendment, if required. Which, at least,
will mean incoming legal issues or inquiries to be managed by WMF, with
related expenses. In short words: this rule, if approved, will be a complete
mess for Wikipedia.

Because of such a risk (it’s easily understandable that this rule will make
encyclopedia articles as pure “frames” for unchangeable text imposed by
others), the Italian community has decided, by a vast majority (see
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bar/Discussioni/Comma_29_e_Wikipedia)
to lock both read and write access to encyclopedia articles and to publish
the following text as full screen sitenotice:
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utente:Vituzzu/comunicato (an English
translation is available here:
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utente:Vituzzu/comunicato/en). This decision
will be implemented as soon as possible, during the next 12 hours.

Giovanni AKA Pap3rinik (sysop at it.wikip)


> Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 18:16:41 +0530
> From: Theo10011 <de10011 [at] gmail>
> Subject: [Foundation-l] Blackout at Italian Wikipedia
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
> <foundation-l [at] lists>
> Hi
>
> There seems to be a situation developing at Italian Wikipedia related to a
> local law that would infringe neutrality on Wikipedia. The discussions even
> mention a possible blackout/lockdown in reaction.
>
> Is anyone aware of this situation? Is it likely to have any effect on other
> projects and outside communities? Is WMF aware since it is mentioned in the
> discussion as well.
>
> The announcement that was linked to on IRC:
> https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utente:Vituzzu/comunicato/en
>
> A discussion which might be relevant:
> http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bar/Discussioni/Comma_29_e_Wikipedia
>
>
> Theo
>
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morton.thomas at googlemail

Oct 4, 2011, 6:23 AM

Post #11 of 126 (4410 views)
Permalink
Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

>
> Because of such a risk (it’s easily understandable that this rule will make
> encyclopedia articles as pure “frames” for unchangeable text imposed by
> others), the Italian community has decided, by a vast majority (see
> http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bar/Discussioni/Comma_29_e_Wikipedia
> )
> to lock both read and write access to encyclopedia articles and to publish
> the following text as full screen sitenotice:
> http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utente:Vituzzu/comunicato (an English
> translation is available here:
> http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utente:Vituzzu/comunicato/en). This decision
> will be implemented as soon as possible, during the next 12 hours.
>

Being polite; I'd call that a serious overreaction. Akin to throwing the
baby out with the bath water!

I bought my tame Italian lunch and she likes me again; so deigned to have a
read of this law. As far as we can make out there doesn't seem to be a leg
to stand on.. or any real likelihood of risk to editors or content...

In the modern world countries love to try it on and apply their internet
laws across the world. Fortunately courts tend to give that short shrift.

> Which, at least, will mean incoming legal issues or inquiries to be
managed by WMF, withrelated expenses.

To the extent of a polite response saying "not a chance, sorry", and an
offer to hand them off to a volunteer to help resolve any issues. Which is
what happens at the moment :)
Tom
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lodewijk at effeietsanders

Oct 4, 2011, 6:40 AM

Post #12 of 126 (4405 views)
Permalink
Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

I think it is fairly easy to make such statements when you live abroad, and
are not directly influenced by its outcomes.

As a side note, if this strike goes through (I could both understand it if
it does, and if it doesn't), I would recommand to add a link to an English
translation at least, for all those foreigners who might be visiting
it.wikipedia as well.

An alternative could be to use a really huge sitenotice, so that people are
forced to scroll down a lot every time - which is very frustrating, but
doesn't deprive you of the actual contents.

Best,

Lodewijk

No dia 4 de Outubro de 2011 15:23, Thomas Morton <
morton.thomas [at] googlemail> escreveu:

> >
> > Because of such a risk (it’s easily understandable that this rule will
> make
> > encyclopedia articles as pure “frames” for unchangeable text imposed by
> > others), the Italian community has decided, by a vast majority (see
> >
> http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bar/Discussioni/Comma_29_e_Wikipedia
> > )
> > to lock both read and write access to encyclopedia articles and to
> publish
> > the following text as full screen sitenotice:
> > http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utente:Vituzzu/comunicato (an English
> > translation is available here:
> > http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utente:Vituzzu/comunicato/en). This
> decision
> > will be implemented as soon as possible, during the next 12 hours.
> >
>
> Being polite; I'd call that a serious overreaction. Akin to throwing the
> baby out with the bath water!
>
> I bought my tame Italian lunch and she likes me again; so deigned to have a
> read of this law. As far as we can make out there doesn't seem to be a leg
> to stand on.. or any real likelihood of risk to editors or content...
>
> In the modern world countries love to try it on and apply their internet
> laws across the world. Fortunately courts tend to give that short shrift.
>
> > Which, at least, will mean incoming legal issues or inquiries to be
> managed by WMF, withrelated expenses.
>
> To the extent of a polite response saying "not a chance, sorry", and an
> offer to hand them off to a volunteer to help resolve any issues. Which is
> what happens at the moment :)
> Tom
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> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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nawrich at gmail

Oct 4, 2011, 6:40 AM

Post #13 of 126 (4411 views)
Permalink
Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 9:12 AM, Donaldo Papero <pap3rinik [at] gmail> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Here are the facts: the Italian parliament will discuss within few days –
> and most likely approve – a law which, among the other things, will
> introduce the duty, for every web site (included, and not limited to,
> Wikipedia) to publish amendments to previously published information.
>
> According to the proposal (
> http://www.senato.it/service/PDF/PDFServer/BGT/00484629.pdf), the required
> amendment cannot be modified, nor commented, and must be placed in article’s
> body, in the same format and with the same visibility of the allegedly
> defaming text.
> Moreover: the amendment must be published upon every request, without taking
> into account whether the information is true or not and whether references
> are available for it or not.
>
> Also, please, be aware of the fact that (as for the recent Google and
> Microsoft cases) the principle that the proposed law is going to introduce
> will be applicable to “all” sites, not only Italian’s: if somebody from
> Italy will post any information on, say, en.wikip, the rule will make it
> mandatory for en.wikip to post an amendment, if required. Which, at least,
> will mean incoming legal issues or inquiries to be managed by WMF, with
> related expenses. In short words: this rule, if approved, will be a complete
> mess for Wikipedia.
>
> Because of such a risk (it’s easily understandable that this rule will make
> encyclopedia articles as pure “frames” for unchangeable text imposed by
> others), the Italian community has decided, by a vast majority (see
> http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bar/Discussioni/Comma_29_e_Wikipedia)
>  to lock both read and write access to encyclopedia articles and to publish
> the following text as full screen sitenotice:
> http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utente:Vituzzu/comunicato (an English
> translation is available here:
> http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utente:Vituzzu/comunicato/en). This decision
> will be implemented as soon as possible, during the next 12 hours.
>
> Giovanni AKA Pap3rinik (sysop at it.wikip)
>
>


Hi Giovanni (or Donaldo?),

Has anyone at it.wp been in touch with Foundation staff? Locking a
major wiki seems like a pretty big step, perhaps they could provide
some advice or resources? Am I correct in understanding this lock as a
protest of the proposed law, since it hasn't been discussed or voted
upon in parliament yet? Such a political protest seems like an
unprecedented step for a Wikimedia project.

Nathan

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morton.thomas at googlemail

Oct 4, 2011, 6:50 AM

Post #14 of 126 (4413 views)
Permalink
Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

On 4 October 2011 14:40, Lodewijk <lodewijk [at] effeietsanders> wrote:

> I think it is fairly easy to make such statements when you live abroad, and
> are not directly influenced by its outcomes.


I live in the UK; where our defamation laws definitely make it very risky to
edit Wikipedia (context; in the UK suing for defamation is very easy - even
for things published abroad, even if the defamed person lives abroad, etc.).
And during the recent "super-injunctions" debacle there was a very similar
scare situation.

I made the same arguments then :)

Having pinged this around a few people; mixing in our law knowledge with
some understanding of the Italian legal system I stand by my first response;
that there is nothing major to be worried about. The law seems quite clear
in indicting the website owner as the one responsible for applying the law.

Perhaps it does leave individual editors open to litigation; but, really, we
have always been wide open to litigation anyway.

I don't mean to sound entirely dismissive; certainly it's worth examining,
talking to the foundation about and perhaps developing new
approaches/responses. But shutting down the Wiki? That's a pretty major step
:S

And if, as is suggested in other emails, this is primarily intended as a
protest that is *highly concerning*!

Tom
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de10011 at gmail

Oct 4, 2011, 6:53 AM

Post #15 of 126 (4410 views)
Permalink
Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 7:10 PM, Nathan <nawrich [at] gmail> wrote:

>
>
> Hi Giovanni (or Donaldo?),
>
> Has anyone at it.wp been in touch with Foundation staff? Locking a
> major wiki seems like a pretty big step, perhaps they could provide
> some advice or resources? Am I correct in understanding this lock as a
> protest of the proposed law, since it hasn't been discussed or voted
> upon in parliament yet? Such a political protest seems like an
> unprecedented step for a Wikimedia project.


Nathan makes a good point. It was the main reason I brought it up here, so
the staff and the rest of the community know.

It might be a few hours till WMF staff would be able to comment. But this is
a political protest, if the Italian community does indeed wish to go through
with it, I hope they get in touch with WMF first and remain in contact with
the rest of the community through it.

Theo
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millosh at gmail

Oct 4, 2011, 7:03 AM

Post #16 of 126 (4401 views)
Permalink
Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

I think that Wikimedians should give response on that:
* Writing emails and letters to Italian embassies in your country. (I
will email them immediately.)
* Demonstrate -- 5 people are enough -- in front of embassy in your country.
* If you are in EU country, ask your EU parliament members to talk
about it with their Italian counterparts.
* Other ideas?

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nawrich at gmail

Oct 4, 2011, 7:12 AM

Post #17 of 126 (4413 views)
Permalink
Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 9:54 AM, Donaldo Papero <pap3rinik [at] gmail> wrote:
> Hi Nathan,
>
> my name is Giovanni (Donaldo stands for Donald [Duck], and is related to my
> nickname ;))
>
> You are right in understanding that this lock is a way to raise a discussion
> about a proposed law, which has been developed without any consideration
> about the consequences on Wikipedia (or disregarding it: we already tryed,
> in the past, to stess such consequences). In no way our reaction wants to be
> "political" nor "lobbying" as our only concern is about encyclopedia
> content: there is no way to make it compliant an unchangeable text (the
> required amendment) and a wiki, an amendment that can be required also if a
> statement is true and referenced, with Wikipedia citations policies.
>
> Regards
> Giovanni AKA Pap3rinik

Thanks Giovanni.

Reading the discussion (with Google-glasses), it looks like there are
about 40 people in favor of the lock (with only several opposed), and
the lock is planned for "sine die" or until a decision to unlock it is
taken by the community. It's not clear that the discussion has reached
an endpoint. It does seem like the protest statement could be
improved, perhaps with relevant links to contact politicians etc.

I wonder, would this work almost as well as a rather large sitenotice?
Or perhaps an intermediate page before you reach your intended
article? By that I mean - you click on the link you want, you get
taken to a landing page with a notice first, and then you have to
click a "Continue" button to get to your article. That way people can
still access the encyclopedia, but they also get the message.

Nathan

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risker.wp at gmail

Oct 4, 2011, 7:36 AM

Post #18 of 126 (4415 views)
Permalink
Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

On 4 October 2011 10:12, Nathan <nawrich [at] gmail> wrote:

> Reading the discussion (with Google-glasses), it looks like there are
> about 40 people in favor of the lock (with only several opposed), and
> the lock is planned for "sine die" or until a decision to unlock it is
> taken by the community. It's not clear that the discussion has reached
> an endpoint. It does seem like the protest statement could be
> improved, perhaps with relevant links to contact politicians etc.
>
>
One has to wonder how the "community" will be able to discuss unlocking the
project if the project is locked.

Risker
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jalo75 at gmail

Oct 4, 2011, 7:38 AM

Post #19 of 126 (4403 views)
Permalink
Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

>
> One has to wonder how the "community" will be able to discuss unlocking the
> project if the project is locked.
>
> Risker
>

i.e., we can leave unlocked the village pump

Jalo
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valdelli at gmail

Oct 4, 2011, 7:48 AM

Post #20 of 126 (4410 views)
Permalink
Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 3:40 PM, Nathan <nawrich [at] gmail> wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 9:12 AM, Donaldo Papero <pap3rinik [at] gmail> wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> Here are the facts: the Italian parliament will discuss within few days –
>> and most likely approve – a law which, among the other things, will
>> introduce the duty, for every web site (included, and not limited to,
>> Wikipedia) to publish amendments to previously published information.
>>
>> According to the proposal (
>> http://www.senato.it/service/PDF/PDFServer/BGT/00484629.pdf), the required
>> amendment cannot be modified, nor commented, and must be placed in article’s
>> body, in the same format and with the same visibility of the allegedly
>> defaming text.
>> Moreover: the amendment must be published upon every request, without taking
>> into account whether the information is true or not and whether references
>> are available for it or not.
>>
>> Also, please, be aware of the fact that (as for the recent Google and
>> Microsoft cases) the principle that the proposed law is going to introduce
>> will be applicable to “all” sites, not only Italian’s: if somebody from
>> Italy will post any information on, say, en.wikip, the rule will make it
>> mandatory for en.wikip to post an amendment, if required. Which, at least,
>> will mean incoming legal issues or inquiries to be managed by WMF, with
>> related expenses. In short words: this rule, if approved, will be a complete
>> mess for Wikipedia.
>>
>> Because of such a risk (it’s easily understandable that this rule will make
>> encyclopedia articles as pure “frames” for unchangeable text imposed by
>> others), the Italian community has decided, by a vast majority (see
>> http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bar/Discussioni/Comma_29_e_Wikipedia)
>>  to lock both read and write access to encyclopedia articles and to publish
>> the following text as full screen sitenotice:
>> http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utente:Vituzzu/comunicato (an English
>> translation is available here:
>> http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utente:Vituzzu/comunicato/en). This decision
>> will be implemented as soon as possible, during the next 12 hours.
>>
>> Giovanni AKA Pap3rinik (sysop at it.wikip)
>>
>>
>
>
> Hi Giovanni (or Donaldo?),
>
> Has anyone at it.wp been in touch with Foundation staff? Locking a
> major wiki seems like a pretty big step, perhaps they could provide
> some advice or resources? Am I correct in understanding this lock as a
> protest of the proposed law, since it hasn't been discussed or voted
> upon in parliament yet? Such a political protest seems like an
> unprecedented step for a Wikimedia project.
>
> Nathan
>

The question is that all Internet people in Italy is having strike
because the project of law can be stopped if not approved. If it will
be approved, it's harder to do something.

It means that any action must be done now.

Ilario

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nawrich at gmail

Oct 4, 2011, 8:01 AM

Post #21 of 126 (4407 views)
Permalink
Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 10:48 AM, Ilario Valdelli <valdelli [at] gmail> wrote:
>
>
> The question is that all Internet people in Italy is having strike
> because the project of law can be stopped if not approved. If it will
> be approved, it's harder to do something.
>
> It means that any action must be done now.
>
> Ilario
>


Sure, I understand. My immediate gut reaction was that I'm leery of
Wikimedia projects, of themselves and independent from the WMF,
getting involved in political advocacy and protest actions. On second
thought, though, I suppose if a U.S. law placed an untenable burden on
the English Wikipedia, we might take some action in our organizational
self-interest.

I do think the WMF should have a role in this decision; I suppose the
question of project self-negation hasn't really arisen in the past -
but I'm not sure that, as a general rule, projects should be able to
voluntarily make themselves unavailable.

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valdelli at gmail

Oct 4, 2011, 8:17 AM

Post #22 of 126 (4406 views)
Permalink
Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 5:01 PM, Nathan <nawrich [at] gmail> wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 10:48 AM, Ilario Valdelli <valdelli [at] gmail> wrote:
>>
>>
>> The question is that all Internet people in Italy is having strike
>> because the project of law can be stopped if not approved. If it will
>> be approved, it's harder to do something.
>>
>> It means that any action must be done now.
>>
>> Ilario
>>
>
>
> Sure, I understand. My immediate gut reaction was that I'm leery of
> Wikimedia projects, of themselves and independent from the WMF,
> getting involved in political advocacy and protest actions. On second
> thought, though, I suppose if a U.S. law placed an untenable burden on
> the English Wikipedia, we might take some action in our organizational
> self-interest.
>
> I do think the WMF should have a role in this decision; I suppose the
> question of project self-negation hasn't really arisen in the past -
> but I'm not sure that, as a general rule, projects should be able to
> voluntarily make themselves unavailable.
>

The problem is that the current law of privacy in Italy it's
sufficient and can assure to protect any person from calumny.

This law is an additional prevention and it's unbalanced and will not
assure the freedom in Internet because it is applying the same law of
newspapers to Internet (bloggers, private persons and so on).

The main point is that any blog or online newspaper of other website
have 48 hour to make something, if you do nothing you will receive a
penalty of a maximum of 12.500 Euros.

If you do something before the 48 hour you need to put in evidence
(probably in the homepage) that there is a correction.

The question now is complicated and the Italian users are looking to a
scenario of frequent requests and all sysops involved in the block and
obscuration of pages to don't face the penalty and don't involve some
editors in any risk.

In 48 hours it's difficult to check something and probably the
requests will be processed with a preventive block.

It means that the solution that we have is to delete any article about
living people because this will reduce the risk a lot.

Ilario

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millosh at gmail

Oct 4, 2011, 8:24 AM

Post #23 of 126 (4441 views)
Permalink
Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 16:03, Milos Rancic <millosh [at] gmail> wrote:
> I think that Wikimedians should give response on that:
> * Writing emails and letters to Italian embassies in your country. (I
> will email them immediately.)
> * Demonstrate -- 5 people are enough -- in front of embassy in your country.
> * If you are in EU country, ask your EU parliament members to talk
> about it with their Italian counterparts.
> * Other ideas?

Here is my email to Italian ambassador. As there is no sense to
translate the whole email from Serbian to English, I'll give just
descriptions of the paragraphs:

> Poątovani ambasadore,
>
> Moram vam reći da sam potpuno ąokiran činjenicom da će italijansko
> izdanje najveće enciklopedije u istoriji čovečanstva biti zaključano i
> uklonjeno s interneta usled novog zakona o internetu [1]! U vremenu
> kada se borimo da proąirimo slobodan pristup znanju na Polineziju,
> podsaharsku Afriku, među domoroce u Amazoniji, mi, koji se bavimo
> slobodnim znanjem, moramo da zatvaramo projekat na jeziku kojim govori
> viąe od 75 miliona ljudi u jednoj od najrazvijenijih zemalja na svetu!

I am shocked.

> Wikipedia na italijanskom jeziku je nastala 2001. godine kao jedna od
> prvih jezičkih izdanja te enciklopedije na internetu. Danas ima skoro
> milion članaka. Ta cifra je desetak puta veća od broja članaka u
> drugoj po veličini enciklopediji na italijanskom. Ti članci su
> proizvod rada skoro 40,000 saradnika italijanske Vikipedije [2]. Kao
> takva, ona je obrazovanje prosečne osobe na italijanskom jeziku
> podigla na potpuno novi nivo. I ne samo to: tih 40,000 saradnika su
> najbolji ambasadori italijanske kulture koje je Italija ikad imala.
> Sarađujući s milionima saradnika Vikipedije na drugim jezicima, oni na
> najbolji mogući način predstavljaju italijansku kulturu i u najdaljim
> krajevima sveta.

About Italian Wikipedia and Italian Wikipedians.

> Na ľalost, Vlada Republike Italije nema predstavu o vrednosti koju
> svojoj zemlji donose saradnici Vikipedije. Umesto da podrľi koliko god
> je u mogućnosti takav projekat i ljude koji na njemu rade, ona aktivno
> radi na njihovom sputavanju, donoseći Zakon koji rad na Vikipediji
> čini potpuno nemogućim. Novi zakon propisuje da se na istoj stranici
> mora postaviti demanti u originalu bez obzira na tačnost tih podataka,
> ne vodeći računa da je Vikipedija enciklopedija, a ne vreća za
> iľivljavanje italijanskih političara.

Unfortunately, Government of Italy has no idea what Wikipedia means.

> Stoga su saradnici Vikipedije na italijanskom, italijanski
> Vikipedijanci, doneli i jedinu moguću odluku: Prestaće s radom,
> zaključaće Vikipediju na italijanskom jeziku. Umesto da se slobodno
> znanje i slobodan pristup obrazovanju ąiri, na jeziku s jednom od
> najbronijih populacija govornika na svetu, u najbolju ruku će najveća
> riznica znanja na svetu ostati zamrznuta, a u najgoru potpuno
> uklonjena.

The only solution which Italian Wikipedians had is to lock Wikipedia.

> I kao neko ko se bavi Vikipedijom i kao čovek kome je stalo do toga da
> svako na svetu ima slobodan pristup obrazovanju i kao osoba koja je
> svoju mladost provela uz brojne izdanke savremene italijanske kulture
> i kao filolog koji je potpuno svestan jedinstvenog mesta italijanske
> kulture u istoriji savremene civilizacije -- urgiram na vas da se
> zaloľite da se ovaj Zakon promeni na način na koji Vikipedija i drugi
> izvori slobodnog znanja neće biti ugroľeni.

Urging on ambassador to espouse to change the law.

> Srdačno,
> Miloą Rančić
>
> [1] http://www.senato.it/service/PDF/PDFServer/BGT/00484629.pdf
> [2] http://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/ChartsWikipediaIT.htm

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thomas.dalton at gmail

Oct 4, 2011, 8:43 AM

Post #24 of 126 (4401 views)
Permalink
Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

On 4 October 2011 14:12, Donaldo Papero <pap3rinik [at] gmail> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Here are the facts: the Italian parliament will discuss within few days –
> and most likely approve – a law which, among the other things, will
> introduce the duty, for every web site (included, and not limited to,
> Wikipedia) to publish amendments to previously published information.
>
> According to the proposal (
> http://www.senato.it/service/PDF/PDFServer/BGT/00484629.pdf), the required
> amendment cannot be modified, nor commented, and must be placed in article’s
> body, in the same format and with the same visibility of the allegedly
> defaming text.
> Moreover: the amendment must be published upon every request, without taking
> into account whether the information is true or not and whether references
> are available for it or not.

Does the proposed law say who is responsible for compliance? I would
be surprised if it was anyone other than the WMF. Legally speaking,
we're all just users of the website. We're responsible for our own
actions, of course, but not for anything else. I doubt Italian law
sees it any differently.

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church.of.emacs.ml at googlemail

Oct 4, 2011, 8:45 AM

Post #25 of 126 (4407 views)
Permalink
Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

Hi,

Wikipedia is a promise, that promise is "free knowledge at all time". By
locking read access, you break that promise, you destroy part of the
trust that our readers have in Wikipedia.

In order to get the readers attention, it seems equally efficient to me
to have a huge sitenotice, but without blocking read access completely.

You can appeal to the reader, warn the reader, make the reader put up
with extra effort to get the informtion that he seeks, but please do not
eliminate the reason why he visits Wikipedia. Otherwise, he'll just stop
using our site.

Thanks,
Tobias

Ps.: Other than that, I support your protests. Wikipedia /has/ power in
the world, and it's a just effort to use that power to prevent changes,
that would render it impossible for us to pursuit our mission.
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