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German law and wikiquote

 

 

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magnus.manske at web

Mar 9, 2005, 6:51 AM

Post #1 of 8 (794 views)
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German law and wikiquote

Just FYI :-)

The German Verein has just received a legal opinion they ordered some
time ago, concerning various legal issues for wikipedia and German law.

It turns out that, according to the legal opinion, German law prohibits
the collection of quotes, or quotes as such, if they are not used in a
context.

That would mean the German wikiquote project's legal status is shaky at
best. (IANAL)

The German PDF with the legal opinion is at [1], and as wiki code at [2].


Magnus


[1] http://www.wikimedia.de/files/Rechtsfragen_Maerz_2005.pdf
[2] http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Rechtsfragen_M%C3%A4rz_2005


delirium at hackish

Mar 9, 2005, 7:47 AM

Post #2 of 8 (757 views)
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Re: German law and wikiquote [In reply to]

Magnus Manske wrote:

>It turns out that, according to the legal opinion, German law prohibits
>the collection of quotes, or quotes as such, if they are not used in a
>context.
>
>That would mean the German wikiquote project's legal status is shaky at
>best. (IANAL)
>
>
Does this mean that printed collections of quotes, like the equivalent
of the English world's ubiquitous _Bartlett's Book of Quotations_, are
not commonly available in German bookstores?

-Mark


aphaia at gmail

Mar 9, 2005, 7:54 AM

Post #3 of 8 (748 views)
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Re: German law and wikiquote [In reply to]

On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 14:51:05 +0100, Magnus Manske <magnus.manske [at] web> wrote:

> Just FYI :-)

Vielen Dank fuer deine Informationen, Magnus.

> The German Verein has just received a legal opinion they ordered some
> time ago, concerning various legal issues for wikipedia and German law.
>
> It turns out that, according to the legal opinion, German law prohibits
> the collection of quotes, or quotes as such, if they are not used in a
> context.

Japanese Wikiquote has a similar restriction. We have no legal
consultant but there have been a similar sentence and it made us
decide to have a very strict policy toward submissions.

According to the Japanese law, any quotation should be under two
restriction. 1) Any quotation should be used in a context 2) quotation
should be subsidiary from the view of quantities, that is, the amount
of quotation should be less than the text which gives the context.

> That would mean the German wikiquote project's legal status is shaky at
> best. (IANAL)

We accept only submission from PD texts. So there are no quote from TV
and movies, nor contemporary writers. Some politicians have their
pages because their words and addresses in some occasion (at the diet,
e.g.) are PD. We should have given up some pages like "Albert
Einstein" .




It is a bit shabby but still now we have a bunch
of good classics. I hope it could be your consolation.

--
Aphaea@*.wikipedia.org
email: Aphaia @ gmail (dot) com


erik_moeller at gmx

Mar 9, 2005, 10:10 AM

Post #4 of 8 (751 views)
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Re: German law and wikiquote [In reply to]

The legal study ordered by the German Wikimedia e.V. is mostly a summary
of the current German law. While that has value in itself, those who
have followed the relevant discussions will not find much new
information in it. A more interesting study would be one of loopholes
and ways to do an end run around copyright and trademark law:

- How to cheat museums which try to steal public domain content by
forbidding photographs.
- How to get coat of arms images under a free or semi-free license.
- How to phrase Wikiquote pages so that they fall under the fair use
equivalent of German law.
- How to use the fact that Wikimedia servers are in the United States to
our advantage.

In short, instead of asking "What does the law say?", we should ask "How
can we do what we want to do?". If the answer is "We can't", then we
should actively work to change the laws to our advantage. If we want to
survive, we need to be creative in the way we deal with the law,
especially in Germany, where, tolerated by the government, a substantial
subset of lawyers are criminals who terrorize grandmothers and
15-year-old webmasters with illegal demands for money (google "Abmahnung").

If your perception is that, legally speaking, you are standing on a
small island, then you will not even notice as the protections that the
law grants you are eroded away by the ocean around you. We have to
actively claim the ground that rightfully belongs to us, and not let
lobbyists and corrupt governments get away with making information ever
more proprietary.

Erik


delirium at hackish

Mar 9, 2005, 11:43 AM

Post #5 of 8 (751 views)
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Re: German law and wikiquote [In reply to]

Delirium wrote:

> Does this mean that printed collections of quotes, like the equivalent
> of the English world's ubiquitous _Bartlett's Book of Quotations_, are
> not commonly available in German bookstores?

Answering my own question, it appears that such books of quotations
*are* readily available in Germany. Amazon.de, for example, sells all
the standard English-language books of quotations, from the _Oxford
Concise Dictionary of Quotations_ to the _Random House Webster's
Quotationary_, and most of them include unlicensed quotations from
20th-century figures like Einstein.

See:
http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/tg/browse/-/11902/ref=br_dp_bl_2/028-0024331-1137322

Since these publishers haven't been prohibited from selling their books
in Germany, it seems that whatever prohibitions might exist aren't being
enforced.

-Mark


saintonge at telus

Feb 15, 2006, 12:45 AM

Post #6 of 8 (754 views)
Permalink
Re: German law and wikiquote [In reply to]

Erik Moeller wrote:

> The legal study ordered by the German Wikimedia e.V. is mostly a
> summary of the current German law. While that has value in itself,
> those who have followed the relevant discussions will not find much
> new information in it. A more interesting study would be one of
> loopholes and ways to do an end run around copyright and trademark law:
>
> - How to cheat museums which try to steal public domain content by
> forbidding photographs.
> - How to get coat of arms images under a free or semi-free license.
> - How to phrase Wikiquote pages so that they fall under the fair use
> equivalent of German law.
> - How to use the fact that Wikimedia servers are in the United States
> to our advantage.
>
> In short, instead of asking "What does the law say?", we should ask
> "How can we do what we want to do?". If the answer is "We can't", then
> we should actively work to change the laws to our advantage. If we
> want to survive, we need to be creative in the way we deal with the
> law, especially in Germany, where, tolerated by the government, a
> substantial subset of lawyers are criminals who terrorize grandmothers
> and 15-year-old webmasters with illegal demands for money (google
> "Abmahnung").
>
> If your perception is that, legally speaking, you are standing on a
> small island, then you will not even notice as the protections that
> the law grants you are eroded away by the ocean around you. We have to
> actively claim the ground that rightfully belongs to us, and not let
> lobbyists and corrupt governments get away with making information
> ever more proprietary.

This kind of ultra-concervative approach to the law by lawyers does not
surprise me. A lawyer that is truly a benefit to his client should be
looking for ways that the law can be interpreted that will help his
client to achieve desired goals within the law. Simply being a parrot
that quotes the law has a very limited value. It's not even a matter of
doing an end run or looking for loopholes, but of looking at how the law
can serve us as it is.

I would not call taking surreptitious photographs in museums "cheating";
I would be more inclined to characterize the activities of those museums
in that way. The rules that they might have about taking photographs
are not a copyright issue except in a few limited cases where they
actually own the copyright .

Using our funds to lobby for changing the law can affect the tax-free
charitable status in some places, but using the existing law to our best
advantage should come first anyway.

Your general conclusion about law is accurate. The ones who benefit
from the law are those who play it close to the edge. Exciting new
ideas such as Wikipedia itself have not progressed by being more safe
than sorry. Gold medallists in sport are the ones who take that extra
chance; they know that they could crash but are not paralyzed by that
fear. It just takes a little courage.

Ec

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erik_moeller at gmx

Feb 15, 2006, 1:28 PM

Post #7 of 8 (749 views)
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Re: German law and wikiquote [In reply to]

Out of curiosity, Ray, what caused you to respond to a one year old
email from me now? Are you experiencing some lag? :-)

Erik
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saintonge at telus

Feb 16, 2006, 5:06 AM

Post #8 of 8 (748 views)
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Re: German law and wikiquote [In reply to]

Erik Moeller wrote:

>Out of curiosity, Ray, what caused you to respond to a one year old
>email from me now? Are you experiencing some lag? :-)
>
My apologies. I know there are a lot of things that just don't get
tossed from my mailing list files, and I usually check the date of what
I'm answering. Good thing I was mostly agreeing with you. :-)

Ray

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