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Comparison of Chinese Wikipedia, Hudong and Baidu Baike

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zvandijk at googlemail

Oct 20, 2009, 8:20 AM

Post #1 of 10 (560 views)
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Comparison of Chinese Wikipedia, Hudong and Baidu Baike

Hello,

Having read
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/TECH/10/14/wiki.china/
I would like to collect more information about the situation of online
encyclopedias in China Mainland. I am now browsing a litte bit around
with Google Translator, but it remains difficult to get an impression
concerning the following questions:
* how the collaboration process differs
* how good is the content
* how liberal is the content (not contamined directly or indirectly by
the government)
Does someone of you knows more?

Kind regards

--
Ziko van Dijk
NL-Silvolde

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pbeaudette at wikimedia

Oct 20, 2009, 8:22 AM

Post #2 of 10 (531 views)
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Re: Comparison of Chinese Wikipedia, Hudong and Baidu Baike [In reply to]

Hi Ziko -

These are interesting questions... perhaps some of the folks on the
strategic planning China Task Force could help with that? I'd be
interested in the answers as well.

Members are listed at http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/China_Task_Force
and some questions of this nature are on the talk page.

Philippe

____________________
Philippe Beaudette
Facilitator, Strategic Planning
Wikimedia Foundation

philippe[at]wikimedia.org

Imagine a world in which every human being can freely share in
the sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality!

http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate

On Oct 20, 2009, at 8:20 AM, Ziko van Dijk wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Having read
> http://edition.cnn.com/2009/TECH/10/14/wiki.china/
> I would like to collect more information about the situation of online
> encyclopedias in China Mainland. I am now browsing a litte bit around
> with Google Translator, but it remains difficult to get an impression
> concerning the following questions:
> * how the collaboration process differs
> * how good is the content
> * how liberal is the content (not contamined directly or indirectly by
> the government)
> Does someone of you knows more?
>
> Kind regards
>
>
> --
> Ziko van Dijk
> NL-Silvolde
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l[at]lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

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zvandijk at googlemail

Oct 20, 2009, 8:46 AM

Post #3 of 10 (531 views)
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Re: Comparison of Chinese Wikipedia, Hudong and Baidu Baike [In reply to]

Hello Philippe,

I am looking forward to meet you tonight on the office hour chat. In
fact, I forgot about the China Task Force, good that you mention it.
Should anyone prefer to mail me personally for some (peticular)
reasons, that is possible, too.

Kind regards

Ziko

2009/10/20 Philippe Beaudette <pbeaudette[at]wikimedia.org>:
> Hi Ziko -
>
> These are interesting questions... perhaps some of the folks on the
> strategic planning China Task Force could help with that? I'd be
> interested in the answers as well.
>
> Members are listed at http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/China_Task_Force
> and some questions of this nature are on the talk page.
>
> Philippe
>
>
> ____________________
> Philippe Beaudette
> Facilitator, Strategic Planning
> Wikimedia Foundation
>
> philippe[at]wikimedia.org
>
>
> Imagine a world in which every human being can freely share in
> the sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality!
>
> http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
>
>
> On Oct 20, 2009, at 8:20 AM, Ziko van Dijk wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> Having read
>> http://edition.cnn.com/2009/TECH/10/14/wiki.china/
>> I would like to collect more information about the situation of online
>> encyclopedias in China Mainland. I am now browsing a litte bit around
>> with Google Translator, but it remains difficult to get an impression
>> concerning the following questions:
>> * how the collaboration process differs
>> * how good is the content
>> * how liberal is the content (not contamined directly or indirectly by
>> the government)
>> Does someone of you knows more?
>>
>> Kind regards
>>
>>
>> --
>> Ziko van Dijk
>> NL-Silvolde
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> foundation-l[at]lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l[at]lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

--
Ziko van Dijk
NL-Silvolde

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xu.jimmy.wrk at gmail

Oct 20, 2009, 9:06 AM

Post #4 of 10 (531 views)
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Re: Comparison of Chinese Wikipedia, Hudong and Baidu Baike [In reply to]

Hello,

First of all, apologize for any inconvenience made by my poor grammar.

As a Chinese, I should say, most people here knows (or uses) the Baidu
Baike, because Baidu is commonly known in China Mainland so its
service is well-known too. As for Hudong, although it's known as the
largest Chinese encyclopedia (per it's main page), I should say that
it's not so well-known as Baidu's. At least for me, I didn't heard
about it unless someone mentioned it in the Village Pump. And for
Zhwiki, the amount of users is increasing now because before the
Olympics last year, the Chinese government unblocked the Wikipedia.
As for the collaboration process, both Baidu and Hudong use a
manual-checking process. That is if you submit a "sensitive" edit, it
won't be displayed and possibly you'll be blocked without further
notice. (But, if you just "vandalize" these two sites, like add some
jokes, most of the time this would be passed and displayed...)
And as I know, the Wikipedia is the only which requires a reliable
source when adding something doubtful. So although "WIKIPEDIA MAKES NO
GUARANTEE OF VALIDITY", it's sure to be more reliable than the other
two.
After all, the last question: "how liberal is the content". The answer
to this question will also solve the problem why the Chinese Wikipedia
has fewer users from China Mainland. Because the server of the
Wikipedia is placed in the USA, the Chinese government cannot
"control" these (as it controls Baidu or Hudong or etc). So it use
something called the "GFW" to block the Wikipedia from being accessed
by China citizens since the Wikipedia is "neutral" and do not filter
information as the government wants. For example, if you attempted to
access [[:zh:å…å››äº‹ä»¶]] (which is *very* "sensitive") you will see
"Connection was reset" and you'll be unable to use the Wikipedia in 90
seconds. That also produced a bad impression like oh, the site is
down. Clearly, you are not able to see any information about that on
the "intranet" of China.

That's something I can say about these three. Regards.

Jimmy Xu

On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 11:20 PM, Ziko van Dijk <zvandijk[at]googlemail.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Having read
> http://edition.cnn.com/2009/TECH/10/14/wiki.china/
> I would like to collect more information about the situation of online
> encyclopedias in China Mainland. I am now browsing a litte bit around
> with Google Translator, but it remains difficult to get an impression
> concerning the following questions:
> * how the collaboration process differs
> * how good is the content
> * how liberal is the content (not contamined directly or indirectly by
> the government)
> Does someone of you knows more?
>
> Kind regards
>
>
> --
> Ziko van Dijk
> NL-Silvolde
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l[at]lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

--
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jimmy_xu_wrk

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apoc2400 at gmail

Oct 22, 2009, 12:33 PM

Post #5 of 10 (506 views)
Permalink

Comparison of Chinese Wikipedia, Hudong and Baidu Baike [In reply to]

I do not read much Chinese, but I have found Baidu Baike and Hudong
interesting. Let me share my impression of how they differ from Wikipedia.
* Like most of the Chinese web, there is little regard for copyrights. Most
of the article text seems to be copied from news articles, the official site
of the subject or various government websites. The images come from anywhere
on the web.
* They encourage rather than avoid the social networking and game-like
aspects of the community. As the CNN article says, there are general
chatrooms, friend functions, points, rankings etc.
* They are not at all strict with sources. We should remember that Wikipedia
became hugely popular before we really got serious about sources, and most
non-English Wikipedias are still mostly unsourced.
* They are generally anarchic. Not towards things the government might
object to, but to things like BLP, and sources. Celebrity articles are full
of gossip.
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gerard.meijssen at gmail

Oct 22, 2009, 12:45 PM

Post #6 of 10 (505 views)
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Re: Comparison of Chinese Wikipedia, Hudong and Baidu Baike [In reply to]

Hoi,
Most of the Wikimedians that I know are into things like IRC, they are on
skype, mailing lists, talk pages .... The question that I have is thy we do
not have our own social networking environment, our own friend functions,
rankings ORGANISED. As these things exist informally would they not work
better if we give room to them...

For instance, I am in contact with many people from the smaller wikipedias,
I get the impression that this contact is appreciated. I even think that it
helps grow the smaller projects because it provides some reassurance.. This
same reassurance can be given when we deliberately foster a community
spirit. This can be done by providing social networking functionality,
rankings, tools etc.
Thanks,
GerardM

2009/10/22 Apoc 2400 <apoc2400[at]gmail.com>

> I do not read much Chinese, but I have found Baidu Baike and Hudong
> interesting. Let me share my impression of how they differ from Wikipedia.
> * Like most of the Chinese web, there is little regard for copyrights. Most
> of the article text seems to be copied from news articles, the official
> site
> of the subject or various government websites. The images come from
> anywhere
> on the web.
> * They encourage rather than avoid the social networking and game-like
> aspects of the community. As the CNN article says, there are general
> chatrooms, friend functions, points, rankings etc.
> * They are not at all strict with sources. We should remember that
> Wikipedia
> became hugely popular before we really got serious about sources, and most
> non-English Wikipedias are still mostly unsourced.
> * They are generally anarchic. Not towards things the government might
> object to, but to things like BLP, and sources. Celebrity articles are full
> of gossip.
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l[at]lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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wikipedia at verizon

Oct 22, 2009, 12:48 PM

Post #7 of 10 (505 views)
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Re: Comparison of Chinese Wikipedia, Hudong and Baidu Baike [In reply to]

Apoc 2400 wrote:
> * They encourage rather than avoid the social networking and game-like
> aspects of the community. As the CNN article says, there are general
> chatrooms, friend functions, points, rankings etc.
>
Does any of this factor into the number of "entries" or other reported
data for Hudong and Baidu Baike? I'd like to have a better sense of
whether we're really getting an apples-to-apples comparison with
Wikipedia as an encyclopedia. It could have interesting implications,
either in terms of reconsidering how we interact as a community, or in
reconsidering whether these are really comparable sites.

--Michael Snow

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apoc2400 at gmail

Oct 22, 2009, 1:22 PM

Post #8 of 10 (505 views)
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Comparison of Chinese Wikipedia, Hudong and Baidu Baike [In reply to]

I don't think the social parts are included in the article count, but we
really need to ask someone who has actual experience with these sites. I
think it is clear that these sites fill the same role as Wikipedia in China.
Perhaps they also fill other roles that we intentionally do not, like
gossip, social networking, indiscriminate collection of information...

What I would really want to know is how they deal with vandalism and edit
wars. What I think the demise of the Swedish competitor Susning.nu told us,
is that less strict more hands-off wiki is very popular with writers and
readers, but fails to attract enough administrator types to deal with
vandalism.
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gerard.meijssen at gmail

Oct 22, 2009, 1:31 PM

Post #9 of 10 (506 views)
Permalink

Re: Comparison of Chinese Wikipedia, Hudong and Baidu Baike [In reply to]

Hoi,
This "intentional" part I am not so sure off. Many of us, particularly
"power users" are very much connected with others. the amount of social
networking around Wikipedia and MediaWiki is enormous and the sad thing is
that we do not harness this energy for our own purposes.

For instance if we HAD social networking functionality I would want to have
a "Maroon" SIG. Now I find it hard to get people interested in this subject
that played such an important role in the history of the Americas.
Thanks,
GerardM

2009/10/22 Apoc 2400 <apoc2400[at]gmail.com>

> I don't think the social parts are included in the article count, but we
> really need to ask someone who has actual experience with these sites. I
> think it is clear that these sites fill the same role as Wikipedia in
> China.
> Perhaps they also fill other roles that we intentionally do not, like
> gossip, social networking, indiscriminate collection of information...
>
> What I would really want to know is how they deal with vandalism and edit
> wars. What I think the demise of the Swedish competitor Susning.nu told us,
> is that less strict more hands-off wiki is very popular with writers and
> readers, but fails to attract enough administrator types to deal with
> vandalism.
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l[at]lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
_______________________________________________
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zvandijk at googlemail

Nov 1, 2009, 11:56 AM

Post #10 of 10 (290 views)
Permalink

Re: Comparison of Chinese Wikipedia, Hudong and Baidu Baike [In reply to]

Thank you for the information!
I am curious what the ESP group about China will have to report.
Kind regards
Ziko

2009/10/20 Jimmy Xu <xu.jimmy.wrk[at]gmail.com>:
> Hello,
>
> First of all, apologize for any inconvenience made by my poor grammar.
>
> As a Chinese, I should say, most people here knows (or uses) the Baidu
> Baike, because Baidu is commonly known in China Mainland so its
> service is well-known too. As for Hudong, although it's known as the
> largest Chinese encyclopedia (per it's main page), I should say that
> it's not so well-known as Baidu's. At least for me, I didn't heard
> about it unless someone mentioned it in the Village Pump. And for
> Zhwiki, the amount of users is increasing now because before the
> Olympics last year, the Chinese government unblocked the Wikipedia.
> As for the collaboration process, both Baidu and Hudong use a
> manual-checking process. That is if you submit a "sensitive" edit, it
> won't be displayed and possibly you'll be blocked without further
> notice. (But, if you just "vandalize" these two sites, like add some
> jokes, most of the time this would be passed and displayed...)
> And as I know, the Wikipedia is the only which requires a reliable
> source when adding something doubtful. So although "WIKIPEDIA MAKES NO
> GUARANTEE OF VALIDITY", it's sure to be more reliable than the other
> two.
> After all, the last question: "how liberal is the content". The answer
> to this question will also solve the problem why the Chinese Wikipedia
> has fewer users from China Mainland. Because the server of the
> Wikipedia is placed in the USA, the Chinese government cannot
> "control" these (as it controls Baidu or Hudong or etc). So it use
> something called the "GFW" to block the Wikipedia from being accessed
> by China citizens since the Wikipedia is "neutral" and do not filter
> information as the government wants. For example, if you attempted to
> access [[:zh:å…å››äº‹ä»¶]] (which is *very* "sensitive") you will see
> "Connection was reset" and you'll be unable to use the Wikipedia in 90
> seconds. That also produced a bad impression like oh, the site is
> down. Clearly, you are not able to see any information about that on
> the "intranet" of China.
>
> That's something I can say about these three. Regards.
>
> Jimmy Xu
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 11:20 PM, Ziko van Dijk <zvandijk[at]googlemail.com> wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> Having read
>> http://edition.cnn.com/2009/TECH/10/14/wiki.china/
>> I would like to collect more information about the situation of online
>> encyclopedias in China Mainland. I am now browsing a litte bit around
>> with Google Translator, but it remains difficult to get an impression
>> concerning the following questions:
>> * how the collaboration process differs
>> * how good is the content
>> * how liberal is the content (not contamined directly or indirectly by
>> the government)
>> Does someone of you knows more?
>>
>> Kind regards
>>
>>
>> --
>> Ziko van Dijk
>> NL-Silvolde
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> foundation-l[at]lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
>
>
>
> --
> http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jimmy_xu_wrk
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l[at]lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

--
Ziko van Dijk
NL-Silvolde

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