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31 august, 20 years of our national holiday "Our romanian language" in Moldova, mo.wikipedia still in cyrillic !

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cetateanumd at gmail

Aug 31, 2009, 5:56 AM

Post #1 of 31 (1878 views)
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31 august, 20 years of our national holiday "Our romanian language" in Moldova, mo.wikipedia still in cyrillic !

Hello everyone,

20 years ago on 27 august 1989, 700 000 of moldovans (of a 4 millions
popoulation) went to the center of Chișinău (the capital of Moldova) to the
*Piața Marii Adunări Naționale*, the biggest square in the city, and shout
"limbă alfabet" (language and the alphabet) and for country independence,
that event is called "Great National Assembly" (Marea Adunare Națională)
which declared it's language "Moldavian" and it's script "LATIN".
(here are a documental movie about this event
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BSfmhLOxO0, in the 4th part you can find
that declaration)

Please respect that wish and delete the cyrllic mo.wikipedia.org that claims
to be our language, and remove/change the name of our language written in
cyrllic "Молдовеняскэ" on your first page wikipedia.org.

Thank you wikipedia.
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gerard.meijssen at gmail

Aug 31, 2009, 6:03 AM

Post #2 of 31 (1839 views)
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Re: 31 august, 20 years of our national holiday "Our romanian language" in Moldova, mo.wikipedia still in cyrillic ! [In reply to]

Hoi,
French, English, German, Tamil and many other languages are not only spoken
in the "country of origin". The Moldovan language has often been
successfully identified as and called Romanian. When in this other area of
the world the language that you claim to be "your own" is written in
Cyrillic then it must be tough on you.

Given that for all kinds of reasons the wikipedia you refer to may be
removed makes the argument that the language is not yours anyway any less
potent.
Thanks,
GerardM

2009/8/31 Cetateanu Moldovanu <cetateanumd [at] gmail>

> Hello everyone,
>
> 20 years ago on 27 august 1989, 700 000 of moldovans (of a 4 millions
> popoulation) went to the center of Chișinău (the capital of Moldova) to the
> *Piața Marii Adunări Naționale*, the biggest square in the city, and shout
> "limbă alfabet" (language and the alphabet) and for country independence,
> that event is called "Great National Assembly" (Marea Adunare Națională)
> which declared it's language "Moldavian" and it's script "LATIN".
> (here are a documental movie about this event
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BSfmhLOxO0, in the 4th part you can find
> that declaration)
>
> Please respect that wish and delete the cyrllic mo.wikipedia.org that
> claims
> to be our language, and remove/change the name of our language written in
> cyrllic "Молдовеняскэ" on your first page wikipedia.org.
>
> Thank you wikipedia.
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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cetateanumd at gmail

Aug 31, 2009, 6:38 AM

Post #3 of 31 (1836 views)
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Re: 31 august, 20 years of our national holiday "Our romanian language" in Moldova, mo.wikipedia still in cyrillic ! [In reply to]

>the world the language that you claim to be "your own" is written in

I said OUR, OUR country, OUR language, OUR latin script and alphabet. Please
respect us.

"The Moldovan language has often been successfully identified as and called
Romanian."
That's very true, that's why I'm asking, that's why I'm (and others
too) iritated to see "Молдовеняскэ" on your front page, just like in the
soviet occupation times.

On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 3:03 PM, Gerard Meijssen
<gerard.meijssen [at] gmail>wrote:

> Hoi,
> French, English, German, Tamil and many other languages are not only spoken
> in the "country of origin". The Moldovan language has often been
> successfully identified as and called Romanian. When in this other area of
> the world the language that you claim to be "your own" is written in
> Cyrillic then it must be tough on you.
>
> Given that for all kinds of reasons the wikipedia you refer to may be
> removed makes the argument that the language is not yours anyway any less
> potent.
> Thanks,
> GerardM
>
> 2009/8/31 Cetateanu Moldovanu <cetateanumd [at] gmail>
>
> > Hello everyone,
> >
> > 20 years ago on 27 august 1989, 700 000 of moldovans (of a 4 millions
> > popoulation) went to the center of Chișinău (the capital of Moldova) to
> the
> > *Piața Marii Adunări Naționale*, the biggest square in the city, and
> shout
> > "limbă alfabet" (language and the alphabet) and for country independence,
> > that event is called "Great National Assembly" (Marea Adunare Națională)
> > which declared it's language "Moldavian" and it's script "LATIN".
> > (here are a documental movie about this event
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BSfmhLOxO0, in the 4th part you can find
> > that declaration)
> >
> > Please respect that wish and delete the cyrllic mo.wikipedia.org that
> > claims
> > to be our language, and remove/change the name of our language written in
> > cyrllic "Молдовеняскэ" on your first page wikipedia.org.
> >
> > Thank you wikipedia.
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l [at] lists
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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dgerard at gmail

Aug 31, 2009, 6:45 AM

Post #4 of 31 (1826 views)
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Re: 31 august, 20 years of our national holiday "Our romanian language" in Moldova, mo.wikipedia still in cyrillic ! [In reply to]

2009/8/31 Cetateanu Moldovanu <cetateanumd [at] gmail>:

> I said OUR, OUR country, OUR language, OUR latin script and alphabet. Please
> respect us.

If by "respect" you mean "agree" and "do what I say" ... then I'm not
surprised you have no insight as to why no-one cares about your
request.

- d.

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geniice at gmail

Aug 31, 2009, 6:58 AM

Post #5 of 31 (1837 views)
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Re: 31 august, 20 years of our national holiday "Our romanian language" in Moldova, mo.wikipedia still in cyrillic ! [In reply to]

2009/8/31 David Gerard <dgerard [at] gmail>:
> 2009/8/31 Cetateanu Moldovanu <cetateanumd [at] gmail>:
>
>> I said OUR, OUR country, OUR language, OUR latin script and alphabet. Please
>> respect us.
>
>
> If by "respect" you mean "agree" and "do what I say" ... then I'm not
> surprised you have no insight as to why no-one cares about your
> request.

It's not an unreasonable request.

Moldovan normally refers to the language of Moldova and is commonly
written in the Latin alphabet. It is by any reasonable standard
Romanian and this is accepted within Moldova.

Cyrillic Moldovan is a relic of soviet occupation outside of
Transnistria which depending on your POV is an ongoing russian
occupation or a valid if somewhat recently formed nation.

In either case useing the "mo" code for Cyrillic Moldovan is at best
inaccurate and at worse understandably highly offensive.

--
geni

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cetateanumd at gmail

Aug 31, 2009, 7:41 AM

Post #6 of 31 (1835 views)
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Re: 31 august, 20 years of our national holiday "Our romanian language" in Moldova, mo.wikipedia still in cyrillic ! [In reply to]

On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 3:45 PM, David Gerard <dgerard [at] gmail> wrote:

> 2009/8/31 Cetateanu Moldovanu <cetateanumd [at] gmail>:
>
> > I said OUR, OUR country, OUR language, OUR latin script and alphabet.
> Please
> > respect us.
>
>
> If by "respect" you mean "agree" and "do what I say" ... then I'm not
> surprised you have no insight as to why no-one cares about your
> request.
>

Please don't change my words.

It was already promised
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2008-November/047554.html
that
it will change, this mail is a remind of that promise that we remember.

Today is one of the biggest and most important national moldavian holiday !
And just want let you know about that, and about the fact that there is some
anomaly on the very influential and biggest encyclopedia in the world,
Wikipedia. And to my surprise, Wikipedia move very very slow to do anything,
even if was already promised.

>Cyrillic Moldovan is at best inaccurate and at worse understandably highly
offensive.
Indeed.
Usually moldovan people are very shocked when they discover the actual
version of mo.wikipedia, read your own (
http://apps.facebook.com/causes/39775 - Delete "moldovan" Wikipedia 2805
members) http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/1639/31082009163401.png (page the
comment of the users)
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me at marcusbuck

Aug 31, 2009, 9:05 AM

Post #7 of 31 (1830 views)
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Re: 31 august, 20 years of our national holiday "Our romanian language" in Moldova, mo.wikipedia still in cyrillic ! [In reply to]

David Gerard hett schreven:
> 2009/8/31 Cetateanu Moldovanu <cetateanumd [at] gmail>:
>
>
>> I said OUR, OUR country, OUR language, OUR latin script and alphabet. Please
>> respect us.
>>
>
>
> If by "respect" you mean "agree" and "do what I say" ... then I'm not
> surprised you have no insight as to why no-one cares about your
> request.
>
>
> - d.
>
I care about his request (which is reasonable, as geni pointed out) and
I'm sure many other people care too, but don't speak up in this forum.
Of course it can be annoying, if somebody asks for the same thing again
and again, but as his request is reasonable, the only thing you can do
about it is executing the request. The only reason why this is not done
yet is that nobody, who has the power to do it, cares about it. I really
disagree with the foundation people more and more loosing touch with the
communities. It's not just this request. It's also the fact, that
bugzilla bugs are not worked on for weeks and months, delays in software
rollouts, and the low worth that is given to community worktime (like
the example given by Tisza Gergő or the thousands of manhours that are
wasted every day with setting interwikis which could easily be saved, if
we had a central interwiki repository and if this repository wouldn't be
blocked by the developers). Perhaps the foundation should hire new
staff, whose job it is to _read_ the mailing lists (I'm quite sure, that
many of the messages at the lists are read by nobody from the foundation
or just by people who say "not my department") and to make sure that the
relevant foundation employees take care of requests, questions etc.
Another function could be taking care of Bugzilla bugs and delegating
them to the relevant people. And we urgently need new developers. The
current slow pace makes it clear, that the paid staff isn't even able to
keep up with maintenance and daily operations. There are really few big
innovations. We need developers, who can completely focus on innovation.
Like global preferences, like a central interwiki repository, like an
integrated map service, like a working interface for category
intersection, like a Wikidata-project to keep volatile data consistent
and up-to-date (e.g. population numbers). Known problems since half a
decade (when I joined Wiki(p/m)edia) and even before. Five years ago I
understood that these dreams were impossible, but today we have the
money to actually do it. We earned 2 million recently, so please spend
some bucks on hiring people to improve the response time to community
requests and to improve development.

Marcus Buck
User:Slomox

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node.ue at gmail

Aug 31, 2009, 7:10 PM

Post #8 of 31 (1817 views)
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Re: 31 august, 20 years of our national holiday "Our romanian language" in Moldova, mo.wikipedia still in cyrillic ! [In reply to]

I think it is fair to say that no language "belongs" to a country, it
belongs to all speakers... what about the hundreds of thousands of
people who write Moldovan in Cyrillic?

Also I'm curious what Geni feels about them - using "mo" to refer to
Cyrillic Moldovan is not, in my view, "inaccurate", although it is not
as specific as perhaps it sh/could be.

Mark

On 8/31/09, Cetateanu Moldovanu <cetateanumd [at] gmail> wrote:
>>the world the language that you claim to be "your own" is written in
>
> I said OUR, OUR country, OUR language, OUR latin script and alphabet. Please
> respect us.
>
> "The Moldovan language has often been successfully identified as and called
> Romanian."
> That's very true, that's why I'm asking, that's why I'm (and others
> too) iritated to see "Молдовеняскэ" on your front page, just like in the
> soviet occupation times.
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 3:03 PM, Gerard Meijssen
> <gerard.meijssen [at] gmail>wrote:
>
>> Hoi,
>> French, English, German, Tamil and many other languages are not only
>> spoken
>> in the "country of origin". The Moldovan language has often been
>> successfully identified as and called Romanian. When in this other area of
>> the world the language that you claim to be "your own" is written in
>> Cyrillic then it must be tough on you.
>>
>> Given that for all kinds of reasons the wikipedia you refer to may be
>> removed makes the argument that the language is not yours anyway any less
>> potent.
>> Thanks,
>> GerardM
>>
>> 2009/8/31 Cetateanu Moldovanu <cetateanumd [at] gmail>
>>
>> > Hello everyone,
>> >
>> > 20 years ago on 27 august 1989, 700 000 of moldovans (of a 4 millions
>> > popoulation) went to the center of Chișinău (the capital of Moldova) to
>> the
>> > *Piața Marii Adunări Naționale*, the biggest square in the city, and
>> shout
>> > "limbă alfabet" (language and the alphabet) and for country
>> > independence,
>> > that event is called "Great National Assembly" (Marea Adunare Națională)
>> > which declared it's language "Moldavian" and it's script "LATIN".
>> > (here are a documental movie about this event
>> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BSfmhLOxO0, in the 4th part you can find
>> > that declaration)
>> >
>> > Please respect that wish and delete the cyrllic mo.wikipedia.org that
>> > claims
>> > to be our language, and remove/change the name of our language written
>> > in
>> > cyrllic "Молдовеняскэ" on your first page wikipedia.org.
>> >
>> > Thank you wikipedia.
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > foundation-l mailing list
>> > foundation-l [at] lists
>> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> foundation-l [at] lists
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

--
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millosh at gmail

Aug 31, 2009, 10:55 PM

Post #9 of 31 (1820 views)
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Re: 31 august, 20 years of our national holiday "Our romanian language" in Moldova, mo.wikipedia still in cyrillic ! [In reply to]

On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 6:05 PM, Marcus Buck<me [at] marcusbuck> wrote:
> David Gerard hett schreven:
>> 2009/8/31 Cetateanu Moldovanu <cetateanumd [at] gmail>:
>>
>>
>>> I said OUR, OUR country, OUR language, OUR latin script and alphabet. Please
>>> respect us.
>>>
>>
>>
>> If by "respect" you mean "agree" and "do what I say" ... then I'm not
>> surprised you have no insight as to why no-one cares about your
>> request.
>>
>>
>> - d.
>>
> I care about his request (which is reasonable, as geni pointed out) and
> I'm sure many other people care too, but don't speak up in this forum.
> Of course it can be annoying, if somebody asks for the same thing again
> and again, but as his request is reasonable, the only thing you can do
> about it is executing the request. The only reason why this is not done
> yet is that nobody, who has the power to do it, cares about it. I really
> disagree with the foundation people more and more loosing touch with the
> communities. It's not just this request. It's also the fact, that
> bugzilla bugs are not worked on for weeks and months, delays in software
> rollouts, and the low worth that is given to community worktime (like
> the example given by Tisza Gergő or the thousands of manhours that are
> wasted every day with setting interwikis which could easily be saved, if
> we had a central interwiki repository and if this repository wouldn't be
> blocked by the developers). Perhaps the foundation should hire new
> staff, whose job it is to _read_ the mailing lists (I'm quite sure, that
> many of the messages at the lists are read by nobody from the foundation
> or just by people who say "not my department") and to make sure that the
> relevant foundation employees take care of requests, questions etc.
> Another function could be taking care of Bugzilla bugs and delegating
> them to the relevant people. And we urgently need new developers. The
> current slow pace makes it clear, that the paid staff isn't even able to
> keep up with maintenance and daily operations. There are really few big
> innovations. We need developers, who can completely focus on innovation.
> Like global preferences, like a central interwiki repository, like an
> integrated map service, like a working interface for category
> intersection, like a Wikidata-project to keep volatile data consistent
> and up-to-date (e.g. population numbers). Known problems since half a
> decade (when I joined Wiki(p/m)edia) and even before. Five years ago I
> understood that these dreams were impossible, but today we have the
> money to actually do it. We earned 2 million recently, so please spend
> some bucks on hiring people to improve the response time to community
> requests and to improve development.

The only contribution of this person to this list is about closing
mo.wp; if I count well, probably for years. And this is not
reasonable.

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grinapo at gmail

Aug 31, 2009, 11:37 PM

Post #10 of 31 (1811 views)
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Re: 31 august, 20 years of our national holiday "Our romanian language" in Moldova, mo.wikipedia still in cyrillic ! [In reply to]

On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 04:10, Mark Williamson<node.ue [at] gmail> wrote:
> I think it is fair to say that no language "belongs" to a country, it
> belongs to all speakers... what about the hundreds of thousands of
> people who write Moldovan in Cyrillic?

According to Wikipedia (the enciclopaedia libre of the internet, did
you know that? ;)) article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldovan_language:

The standard alphabet is Latin (currently official in the Republic of
Moldova). Before 1989, also two versions of Cyrillic had been used:
the Moldovan Cyrillic alphabet in 1940-89, and the historical Romanian
Cyrillic alphabet until 1857. As of 2008[update], the former remains
in use only in Transnistria.

This suggests that
1) language identification 'mo' is written in latin,
2) it _is_ the _moldovan_ language,
3) it is used by 90% of the population (4 million+).

This hints to me as well that there is a language, which is the same,
but written in cyrillic script and used in Transnistria (400 000+
people), but:
1) I do not know its ISO code (definitely not "mo"),
2) I do not remember the policy to host the same language in different
scripts, but if we support that, we should follow the already applied
naming convention (I tend to remember something similar about serbian
wp?)

> Also I'm curious what Geni feels about them - using "mo" to refer to
> Cyrillic Moldovan is not, in my view, "inaccurate", although it is not
> as specific as perhaps it sh/could be.

It discriminates 90% of the speakers against 10% of the speakers, so I
would call it "inaccurate" as well.

I can understand the frustration of the original poster, based on
these facts. Especially since I'm well aware that that region is full
of national pride, even if it ends in violence. Hot headed people. :-)
--
byte-byte,
grin

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node.ue at gmail

Aug 31, 2009, 11:59 PM

Post #11 of 31 (1816 views)
Permalink

Re: 31 august, 20 years of our national holiday "Our romanian language" in Moldova, mo.wikipedia still in cyrillic ! [In reply to]

When you say "that _is_ the _moldovan_ language"... how does Cyrillic
writing make it not Moldovan anymore? Also, there is a very clear
notice at the top directing people to Latin-alphabet content - it's
not as if anybody is actually deprived of being able to read in their
preferred script or is difficult to find.

Mark

On 8/31/09, Peter Gervai <grinapo [at] gmail> wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 04:10, Mark Williamson<node.ue [at] gmail> wrote:
>> I think it is fair to say that no language "belongs" to a country, it
>> belongs to all speakers... what about the hundreds of thousands of
>> people who write Moldovan in Cyrillic?
>
> According to Wikipedia (the enciclopaedia libre of the internet, did
> you know that? ;)) article
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldovan_language:
>
> The standard alphabet is Latin (currently official in the Republic of
> Moldova). Before 1989, also two versions of Cyrillic had been used:
> the Moldovan Cyrillic alphabet in 1940-89, and the historical Romanian
> Cyrillic alphabet until 1857. As of 2008[update], the former remains
> in use only in Transnistria.
>
> This suggests that
> 1) language identification 'mo' is written in latin,
> 2) it _is_ the _moldovan_ language,
> 3) it is used by 90% of the population (4 million+).
>
> This hints to me as well that there is a language, which is the same,
> but written in cyrillic script and used in Transnistria (400 000+
> people), but:
> 1) I do not know its ISO code (definitely not "mo"),
> 2) I do not remember the policy to host the same language in different
> scripts, but if we support that, we should follow the already applied
> naming convention (I tend to remember something similar about serbian
> wp?)
>
>> Also I'm curious what Geni feels about them - using "mo" to refer to
>> Cyrillic Moldovan is not, in my view, "inaccurate", although it is not
>> as specific as perhaps it sh/could be.
>
> It discriminates 90% of the speakers against 10% of the speakers, so I
> would call it "inaccurate" as well.
>
> I can understand the frustration of the original poster, based on
> these facts. Especially since I'm well aware that that region is full
> of national pride, even if it ends in violence. Hot headed people. :-)
> --
> byte-byte,
> grin
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

--
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node.ue at gmail

Sep 1, 2009, 12:08 AM

Post #12 of 31 (1817 views)
Permalink

Re: 31 august, 20 years of our national holiday "Our romanian language" in Moldova, mo.wikipedia still in cyrillic ! [In reply to]

2 things as well:

If your language is called "Romanian", as you contend in the topic
line, why do you care about the Moldovan WP? You can't have your cake
and eat it too.

Also, the name of the holiday is not "Our romanian language", it's
just "Our Language", there is very specifically no mention of the name
because this is controversial. Same with the national anthem - not
once does it mention Moldova, Moldovan, Romania, or Romanian, although
it does talk a lot about the beauty of the language. Also it does not
mention alphabets.

Mark

On 8/31/09, Cetateanu Moldovanu <cetateanumd [at] gmail> wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
> 20 years ago on 27 august 1989, 700 000 of moldovans (of a 4 millions
> popoulation) went to the center of Chișinău (the capital of Moldova) to the
> *Piața Marii Adunări Naționale*, the biggest square in the city, and shout
> "limbă alfabet" (language and the alphabet) and for country independence,
> that event is called "Great National Assembly" (Marea Adunare Națională)
> which declared it's language "Moldavian" and it's script "LATIN".
> (here are a documental movie about this event
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BSfmhLOxO0, in the 4th part you can find
> that declaration)
>
> Please respect that wish and delete the cyrllic mo.wikipedia.org that claims
> to be our language, and remove/change the name of our language written in
> cyrllic "Молдовеняскэ" on your first page wikipedia.org.
>
> Thank you wikipedia.
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

--
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node.ue at gmail

Sep 1, 2009, 12:15 AM

Post #13 of 31 (1816 views)
Permalink

Re: 31 august, 20 years of our national holiday "Our romanian language" in Moldova, mo.wikipedia still in cyrillic ! [In reply to]

> 2) I do not remember the policy to host the same language in different
> scripts, but if we support that, we should follow the already applied
> naming convention (I tend to remember something similar about serbian
> wp?)

In general the policy is that if we can create a converter we should.
In this case it is possible to create a pretty good conversion system
- there are relatively basic rules although there are exceptions which
could be easily programmed - but I don't anticipate the ro.wp
community would be too thrilled about having an tab to view their
Wikipedia in Cyrillic. If we did so though I imagine that would mostly
resolve this issue once and for all.

Mark

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Sep 1, 2009, 12:42 AM

Post #14 of 31 (1820 views)
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Re: 31 august, 20 years of our national holiday "Our romanian language" in Moldova, mo.wikipedia still in cyrillic ! [In reply to]

On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 08:59, Mark Williamson<node.ue [at] gmail> wrote:
> When you say "that _is_ the _moldovan_ language"... how does Cyrillic
> writing make it not Moldovan anymore?

On the contarary: latin script make it not Moldovan language anymore.

It's like saying old english (non latin script) should be used on enwp
instead of latin, and people may possibly be sent to latin script,
because how does old english scripting make it not english anymore?
(Yeah sure I know, it's probably not the very same language anymore,
but you may possibly see my point about what's defined as official
language with any given name, and its history. If it has been declared
that THE Moldavian is written in latin then cyrillic script isn't
today's Moldavian language anymore. It is a historical language, like
many converted from national to latin scripts in the recent decades.)

> Also, there is a very clear
> notice at the top directing people to Latin-alphabet content - it's
> not as if anybody is actually deprived of being able to read in their
> preferred script or is difficult to find.

I ain't no Moldavian but I'd guess here the priorities are exchanged.
Default should be latin script and it may direct anyone to historical
spelling by cyrillic. And if there's one-to-one relation betwen
cyrillic and latin script then we should make it automagic.

Peter

ps: I'm not against preserving cyrillic writing, but as it's been
mentioned: it doesn't match the language code. should be at least
renamed. as far as I see, which is maybe not much.

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Sep 1, 2009, 12:45 AM

Post #15 of 31 (1812 views)
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Re: 31 august, 20 years of our national holiday "Our romanian language" in Moldova, mo.wikipedia still in cyrillic ! [In reply to]

On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 09:08, Mark Williamson<node.ue [at] gmail> wrote:
> If your language is called "Romanian",

As a sidenote I observe a strong tension between The Romanian People
and others related to the country but separated from it, or got
involved its history. Often I see violent desire to separate
everything possible (often from both ends), including history,
language and general culture. It is like Russian culture versus
countries left Russian occupation: they try to get as far from it as
possible. This will is _very_ strong, and usually not about some few
individuals but the nations in question as a whole. Cannot, and
probably should not just shrugged away.

My 2 'cents.

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Sep 1, 2009, 1:01 AM

Post #16 of 31 (1807 views)
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Re: 31 august, 20 years of our national holiday "Our romanian language" in Moldova, mo.wikipedia still in cyrillic ! [In reply to]

You seem to believe that Cyrillic for the language is a purely
historical artefact when in fact it is still used in textbooks for
schoolchildren and learning to read in Transnistria. If Cyrillic
script were no longer in use for Moldovan or used only as a historical
curiosity this would be a dead issue and I doubt anybody would put up
any debate.

As it is stated in the article, it is still the official script
according to the PMR. Whether you recognize them as a country or an
occupying force, it's undeniable that they do have _de facto_ control
over the vast majority of the land between the Nistru river and the
Ukrainian border and that in the Moldovan-medium schools in that area,
the Cyrillic script is mostly used (I believe there are 4 schools
using Latin script?)

As far as "declarations" and it being "declared" the Latin is the only
script used to write Moldovan, that's pretty meaningless in my book.
Governments over the centuries have tried to impose various linguistic
changes. Laws regarding language are not so relevant in our context.
For example, the Russian government has made a law requiring the use
of Cyrillic script for all languages in the territory of the
Federation... however, in our context, such a declaration is
absolutely meaningless. The situation on the ground, not in law books,
is what really matters.

As far as your second e-mail about people trying to erase Russian
influence, it's not so simple as you've made it seem. In Transnistria,
Russia is nearly universally seen as a force for good and there is
little desire among the ethnic Moldovan population there to de-Russify
anything. They fought a war over that essentially.

In (the rest of) Moldova, it's also not quite so simple. There are
some who believe that Moldovans are Romanians and that Moldova and
Romania should be united; there are others who believe Moldovans are
an independent peopel and the country should have a Russia-oriented
foreign policy; there are others still who believe Moldova should
separate itself from both sides. As far as the Latin script goes that
is considered a resolved issue outside of Transnistria however.

I don't think a decision of language should be made based on our
personal feelings about the former Soviet Union or Russia or empires
or colonism or socialism or Stalin, rather on the simple facts of the
situation... which unfortunately nobody can seem to agree on either.

Mark

On 9/1/09, Peter Gervai <grinapo [at] gmail> wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 08:59, Mark Williamson<node.ue [at] gmail> wrote:
>> When you say "that _is_ the _moldovan_ language"... how does Cyrillic
>> writing make it not Moldovan anymore?
>
> On the contarary: latin script make it not Moldovan language anymore.
>
> It's like saying old english (non latin script) should be used on enwp
> instead of latin, and people may possibly be sent to latin script,
> because how does old english scripting make it not english anymore?
> (Yeah sure I know, it's probably not the very same language anymore,
> but you may possibly see my point about what's defined as official
> language with any given name, and its history. If it has been declared
> that THE Moldavian is written in latin then cyrillic script isn't
> today's Moldavian language anymore. It is a historical language, like
> many converted from national to latin scripts in the recent decades.)
>
>> Also, there is a very clear
>> notice at the top directing people to Latin-alphabet content - it's
>> not as if anybody is actually deprived of being able to read in their
>> preferred script or is difficult to find.
>
> I ain't no Moldavian but I'd guess here the priorities are exchanged.
> Default should be latin script and it may direct anyone to historical
> spelling by cyrillic. And if there's one-to-one relation betwen
> cyrillic and latin script then we should make it automagic.
>
> Peter
>
> ps: I'm not against preserving cyrillic writing, but as it's been
> mentioned: it doesn't match the language code. should be at least
> renamed. as far as I see, which is maybe not much.
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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Sep 1, 2009, 2:13 AM

Post #17 of 31 (1817 views)
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Re: 31 august, 20 years of our national holiday "Our romanian language" in Moldova, mo.wikipedia still in cyrillic ! [In reply to]

Mark,

On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 10:01, Mark Williamson<node.ue [at] gmail> wrote:
> You seem to believe that Cyrillic for the language is a purely
> historical artefact when in fact it is still used in textbooks for
> schoolchildren and learning to read in Transnistria.

I acknowledge that, but what do you want to say:
1) cyrillic form is used by the majority of speakers of Moldavian?
or
2) latin form is used by majority speakers but there is a small
minority who still uses cyrillic?

If first, I cannot see where that data come from. If second, then I
see no reason to make it the main, default form.

> If Cyrillic
> script were no longer in use for Moldovan or used only as a historical
> curiosity this would be a dead issue and I doubt anybody would put up
> any debate.

Thos whole thread isnt' about debate, but a repeated request for
conversion for a long time now. For me it looks like IF it WAS a
historical language but nobody would have wanted to change it. I know
it isn't, it's just the same case for the original poster, and *we're*
debating about his language.

> As it is stated in the article, it is still the official script
> according to the PMR. Whether you recognize them as a country or an
> occupying force, it's undeniable that they do have _de facto_ control
> over the vast majority of the land between the Nistru river and the
> Ukrainian border and that in the Moldovan-medium schools in that area,
> the Cyrillic script is mostly used (I believe there are 4 schools
> using Latin script?)

As far as I see they're still minority speakers.

> As far as "declarations" and it being "declared" the Latin is the only
> script used to write Moldovan, that's pretty meaningless in my book.
> Governments over the centuries have tried to impose various linguistic
> changes. Laws regarding language are not so relevant in our context.

You're the professional in this field so you ought not to leave
unnoticed the fact that many languages tend to move towards latin
script due to geopolitical reasons, and you cannot just say it's a
short-term political movement.

Somebody should look up the proper definition of the ISO code 'mo' I guess.

> As far as your second e-mail about people trying to erase Russian
> influence, it's not so simple as you've made it seem. In Transnistria,

Please observe the fact that I made a general comment about separatism
and not particularly about Transnistria. I happen to be Hungarian and
I could tell you about erasing Russian influence for a week, 8 hours a
day sessions. I guess most ex-occupied people around could educate you
about this subject as well. Generally.

As for Transnistria, I guess they're separated from Moldova because
Moldova wants to get away from Russia while Transnistria doesn't and
this quite explains both what you say and why Moldovans want to get
rid of cyrillic script. I'd say it's not polite not to recognise the
desire for Moldavian people (the majority speakers) in this case,
unless I'm misinformed, which is a quite valid possibility in this
case, since I do not know the opinion of the Moldavian people
(excluding Transnistrian people).

> In (the rest of) Moldova, it's also not quite so simple. There are
> some who believe that Moldovans are Romanians and that Moldova and
> Romania should be united; there are others who believe Moldovans are
> an independent peopel and the country should have a Russia-oriented
> foreign policy; there are others still who believe Moldova should
> separate itself from both sides.

Anyone ever provided some population percentage for these groups?
Maybe the poster is in a minority opinion group, maybe not. That's an
important question.

> As far as the Latin script goes that
> is considered a resolved issue outside of Transnistria however.

So it seems to me, but then you talk against your opinion. :-)

> I don't think a decision of language should be made based on our
> personal feelings about the former Soviet Union or Russia or empires
> or colonism or socialism or Stalin,

I agree.

> rather on the simple facts of the
> situation... which unfortunately nobody can seem to agree on either.

For me it seems that majority of speakers use latin script, and the
official language definition declares latin script, and that Moldavian
people agree upon it as well.

I cannot say anything about Transnistrian language *smirk* which is
written in cyrillic script and used by majority of Transnistrian
people. mo-tr? ;)

Peter

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Sep 1, 2009, 3:45 AM

Post #18 of 31 (1799 views)
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Re: 31 august, 20 years of our national holiday "Our romanian language" in Moldova, mo.wikipedia still in cyrillic ! [In reply to]

A few points to add and some suggestions:

- You can have a single language written in more than one script; although they are separate issues, for our purposes, given that we are predominantly written, we tend to combine both issues and look at language/script combinations.

- There seem to be two language/script combinations in use today: Romanian/Moldavian, written in the Latin Script, used by 20-25m people, which according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ISO_639-1_codes has the ISO-639-1 code "ro" and Moldavian written in the Cyrillic script which is used by around 175,000 people in Transdniestr.

- The iso code for Romanian/Moldavian is ro. "mo", which was the ISO code for Moldavian in the Cyrillic script is now deprecated. There is no ISO code for Cyrillic script Moldavian.

- Where ISO 639-1 codes exist we use them to name the Wikipedia. However, we do have other encyclopedias for languages which don't have ISO codes. Examples are http://ang.wikipedia.org - the Anglo Saxon encyclopedia which uses some non-latin characters (e.g. Ƿ for "th")

- There was a similar dispute recently about the belarusian encyclopedia. I note there are now two projects - be-x-old and be - which are both Cyrillic but looking at the language article the first rejects certain grammar reforms that took place in 1933.

- There is a place to request closing down projects: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_closing_projects. No proposal has yet been made on that page to close mo.wp

- Why should wikipedia close down a language/script which has an active, if small, usage? Surely a better solution is to rename the project and let them continue as they are?

My suggestions:

- mo.wp should be moved to something other than "mo" - perhaps mocy?

- In articles like http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wikipedias, it should be listed as Moldovan (Cyrillic) rather than just Moldovan

- mo.wp should become a disambiguation page, allowing users to choose either mocy or ro.

- Finally, I don't see any reason why the community can't address with this issue by discussion and consensus. There's no need for the foundation to get involved, at least at this stage.

Andrew

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Sep 1, 2009, 4:07 AM

Post #19 of 31 (1810 views)
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Re: 31 august, 20 years of our national holiday "Our romanian language" in Moldova, mo.wikipedia still in cyrillic ! [In reply to]

On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 12:45 PM, Andrew
Turvey<andrewrturvey [at] googlemail> wrote:

> - The iso code for Romanian/Moldavian is ro. "mo", which was the ISO code for Moldavian in the Cyrillic script is now deprecated. There is no ISO code for Cyrillic script Moldavian.

ISO 639 codes are about languages, not scripts. The code "ro" would
apply to both scripts.

> - Where ISO 639-1 codes exist we use them to name the Wikipedia. However, we do have other encyclopedias for languages which don't have ISO codes. Examples are http://ang.wikipedia.org - the Anglo Saxon encyclopedia which uses some non-latin characters (e.g. Ƿ for "th")

In those cases, when available, we use an ISO 639-3 code. All our
3-letter language names are ISO 639-3 codes with the exception of
als:, which should probably be moved to gsw:. If there is also no ISO
639-3 code, a code is used of the form xxx-yyy, where xxx is the code
for the language, or if no clear language applies, the language group
to which the 'language' belongs, and yyy is some sort of denotation.
existing examples are be-x-old with a language, zh-minnan with a
metalanguage and roa-rup and fiu-vro with a language group.

> - mo.wp should be moved to something other than "mo" - perhaps mocy?

I don't know the rules for this, but I would expect it to be either
ro-cyr or ro-x-cyr

> - Finally, I don't see any reason why the community can't address with this issue by discussion and consensus. There's no need for the foundation to get involved, at least at this stage.

The foundation holds technical control over the wikipedia domains;
nothing can be done but by the foundation to for example rename a
wiki.

--
André Engels, andreengels [at] gmail

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Sep 1, 2009, 5:36 AM

Post #20 of 31 (1809 views)
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Re: 31 august, 20 years of our national holiday "Our romanian language" in Moldova, mo.wikipedia still in cyrillic ! [In reply to]

On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 7:07 AM, Andre Engels<andreengels [at] gmail> wrote:
> The foundation holds technical control over the wikipedia domains;
> nothing can be done but by the foundation to for example rename a
> wiki.
>
>
> --
> André Engels, andreengels [at] gmail
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

A purely technical matter. As long as the community has consensus
on the matter (and the change isn't just batshit crazy) there's no reason
for the staff not to implement it. The real decision here is for the
community.

-Chad

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Sep 1, 2009, 6:02 AM

Post #21 of 31 (1806 views)
Permalink

Re: 31 august, 20 years of our national holiday "Our romanian language" in Moldova, mo.wikipedia still in cyrillic ! [In reply to]

I think it has been stated before on this list, that mo.wikipedia.org should
be moved, alongside some other projects waiting to be removed and the staff
developers seemed agreable to this apart from the fact that they didn't
devote time for the necessary background work (moving and recreating
databases, copying files, testing that nothing is broken, etc.)

Previously it has also been stated that the Meta page for closing down
projects is useless (there is no power behind it, nor is there any people or
committe tasked with monitoring and implementing any community consensus
that would come out from this page).

Best regards,
Bence Damokos
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gerard.meijssen at gmail

Sep 1, 2009, 7:55 AM

Post #22 of 31 (1788 views)
Permalink

Re: 31 august, 20 years of our national holiday "Our romanian language" in Moldova, mo.wikipedia still in cyrillic ! [In reply to]

Hoi,
It is equally abundantly clear that the emotions run high whenever this
issue is raised. There is one difference between this closure and all the
others. When this project will be closed, it will not go to the incubator
but will be deleted. This is in marked contrast with all the others.

If I were a developer, I would not choose to do this job. I had to be TOLD
to do the job. There is nothing positive about closing projects.
Thanks,
GerardM

2009/9/1 Bence Damokos <bdamokos [at] gmail>

> I think it has been stated before on this list, that mo.wikipedia.orgshould
> be moved, alongside some other projects waiting to be removed and the staff
> developers seemed agreable to this apart from the fact that they didn't
> devote time for the necessary background work (moving and recreating
> databases, copying files, testing that nothing is broken, etc.)
>
> Previously it has also been stated that the Meta page for closing down
> projects is useless (there is no power behind it, nor is there any people
> or
> committe tasked with monitoring and implementing any community consensus
> that would come out from this page).
>
> Best regards,
> Bence Damokos
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
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> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Sep 1, 2009, 10:04 PM

Post #23 of 31 (1770 views)
Permalink

Re: 31 august, 20 years of our national holiday "Our romanian language" in Moldova, mo.wikipedia still in cyrillic ! [In reply to]

I thought the previous consensus was that this project was to be moved
to a different domain - although outright deletion has been suggested
by quite a few people I can't see where that was ever agreed to.

Mark

On 9/1/09, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen [at] gmail> wrote:
> Hoi,
> It is equally abundantly clear that the emotions run high whenever this
> issue is raised. There is one difference between this closure and all the
> others. When this project will be closed, it will not go to the incubator
> but will be deleted. This is in marked contrast with all the others.
>
> If I were a developer, I would not choose to do this job. I had to be TOLD
> to do the job. There is nothing positive about closing projects.
> Thanks,
> GerardM
>
> 2009/9/1 Bence Damokos <bdamokos [at] gmail>
>
>> I think it has been stated before on this list, that
>> mo.wikipedia.orgshould
>> be moved, alongside some other projects waiting to be removed and the
>> staff
>> developers seemed agreable to this apart from the fact that they didn't
>> devote time for the necessary background work (moving and recreating
>> databases, copying files, testing that nothing is broken, etc.)
>>
>> Previously it has also been stated that the Meta page for closing down
>> projects is useless (there is no power behind it, nor is there any people
>> or
>> committe tasked with monitoring and implementing any community consensus
>> that would come out from this page).
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Bence Damokos
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> foundation-l [at] lists
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
> _______________________________________________
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Sep 1, 2009, 10:18 PM

Post #24 of 31 (1773 views)
Permalink

Re: 31 august, 20 years of our national holiday "Our romanian language" in Moldova, mo.wikipedia still in cyrillic ! [In reply to]

It's more complex than that I think.

"mo" was deleted from the list of ISO codes relatively recently; when
the Wiki was created it was a valid ISO code.

Now, "ro" applies to "Romanian", for which Moldovan is supposed to be
an alternative name, however it seems inappropriate (although it may
be technically correct at this point, the abrupt deletion of the code
has mixed up my mind a lot) to call it a Romanian Wikipedia.

As far as Peter's e-mail goes: there are no exact statistics, I don't
think, for such political ideas however as of the last census, the
majority reported speaking Moldovan (rather than Romanian); in the
cities this was reversed however (as I recall). Electoral politics can
also be a rough indicator of opinion and in that regard those who are
Romanophiles and those who are Russophiles or independentists seem to
be about equal in number. Whether or not Moldovans and Romanians are
the same "people" and whether the language should be called Romanian
or Moldovan is a hot topic in the country and a source of much
contention.

Also, the majority of Moldovans seems to be against union with Romania
despite the fact that this would very likely be in their interests
economically. I am certainly no expert on Hungary by any means but
obviously the end of the Soviet era has left very differing results. I
believe the opinion towards Russia and Russification in Poland is
almost the opposite as that in Belarus, it's unreasonable to fit every
country to the same mold. Some in Moldova still yearn for the old days
of the USSR, and I can understand why they would in their case - they
are currently the poorest country in Europe (besides Kosovo, if you
consider it a country) and are really struggling. There are certainly
those who, while they may not have been big fans of all Soviet
policies, are nostalgic for many aspects of the era.

Like I said, it is a complex issue. Also, from what I have heard (and
this may be incorrect), the US Library of Congress deleted the MO code
without consulting with any Moldovan authority which seems
inappropriate. Imagine the outcry if those "experts" were to delete
SR, HR, and BS codes in favor of SH without consulting any local
authority?

Mark

On 9/1/09, Andre Engels <andreengels [at] gmail> wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 12:45 PM, Andrew
> Turvey<andrewrturvey [at] googlemail> wrote:
>
>> - The iso code for Romanian/Moldavian is ro. "mo", which was the ISO code
>> for Moldavian in the Cyrillic script is now deprecated. There is no ISO
>> code for Cyrillic script Moldavian.
>
> ISO 639 codes are about languages, not scripts. The code "ro" would
> apply to both scripts.
>
>> - Where ISO 639-1 codes exist we use them to name the Wikipedia. However,
>> we do have other encyclopedias for languages which don't have ISO codes.
>> Examples are http://ang.wikipedia.org - the Anglo Saxon encyclopedia which
>> uses some non-latin characters (e.g. Ƿ for "th")
>
> In those cases, when available, we use an ISO 639-3 code. All our
> 3-letter language names are ISO 639-3 codes with the exception of
> als:, which should probably be moved to gsw:. If there is also no ISO
> 639-3 code, a code is used of the form xxx-yyy, where xxx is the code
> for the language, or if no clear language applies, the language group
> to which the 'language' belongs, and yyy is some sort of denotation.
> existing examples are be-x-old with a language, zh-minnan with a
> metalanguage and roa-rup and fiu-vro with a language group.
>
>> - mo.wp should be moved to something other than "mo" - perhaps mocy?
>
> I don't know the rules for this, but I would expect it to be either
> ro-cyr or ro-x-cyr
>
>> - Finally, I don't see any reason why the community can't address with
>> this issue by discussion and consensus. There's no need for the foundation
>> to get involved, at least at this stage.
>
> The foundation holds technical control over the wikipedia domains;
> nothing can be done but by the foundation to for example rename a
> wiki.
>
>
> --
> André Engels, andreengels [at] gmail
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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Sep 1, 2009, 11:02 PM

Post #25 of 31 (1762 views)
Permalink

Re: 31 august, 20 years of our national holiday "Our romanian language" in Moldova, mo.wikipedia still in cyrillic ! [In reply to]

On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 07:04, Mark Williamson<node.ue [at] gmail> wrote:
> I thought the previous consensus was that this project was to be moved
> to a different domain - although outright deletion has been suggested
> by quite a few people I can't see where that was ever agreed to.

Stats briefing:
51 active, 850 registered editors, 401 content pages and total 2300
pages, 31 uploaded files.

Looks like it's not really inactive, so I'd agree to move it to mo-cyr
or something, there seem to be demand for it.

grin

ps: Mark&Gerard, thanks for the background! I guess then as a language
it ought to go together with Romanian. The real problem is that I'm
not sure whether the editors from this two region could work together
at all, like obviously mo admins should be sysopped on ro wp, etc...
Not sure whether any parties would like that to see to happen. :-P

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