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anders.wennersten at bonetmail

Aug 28, 2009, 11:26 AM

Post #1 of 76 (1842 views)
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moderate this list

I have only been on this list for a month, but I am confused over what I
read. There are over 700 subscribers, but two, Anthony and Thoams Dalton
is allowed, to generate more then a third of all entries and often just
these two are driving a whole thread discussion. On Wikipedia we all
work hard to work for consensus (all voices are welcome) and stop people
dominating a subject. Why is it allowed for two persons to take over a
list like it is done here?
Anders

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thomas.dalton at gmail

Aug 28, 2009, 11:29 AM

Post #2 of 76 (1793 views)
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Re: moderate this list [In reply to]

2009/8/28 Anders Wennersten <anders.wennersten [at] bonetmail>:
> I have only been on this list for a month, but I am confused over what I
> read. There are over 700 subscribers, but two, Anthony and Thoams Dalton
> is allowed, to generate more then a third of all entries and often just
> these two are driving a whole thread discussion. On Wikipedia we all
> work hard to work for consensus (all voices are welcome) and stop people
> dominating a subject. Why is it allowed for two persons to take over a
> list like it is done here?

We haven't taken anything over. There is nothing stopping anyone else
from contributing to the discussion as well.

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abigor at forgotten-beauty

Aug 28, 2009, 11:31 AM

Post #3 of 76 (1790 views)
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Re: moderate this list [In reply to]

Hello,

Some people are more active than other people on this list, but I don't
see a problem with the both names you mention.

Cheers,

Huib
--

Http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/user:Abigor

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innocentkiller at gmail

Aug 28, 2009, 11:40 AM

Post #4 of 76 (1788 views)
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Re: moderate this list [In reply to]

On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 2:31 PM, Huib!<abigor [at] forgotten-beauty> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Some people are more active than other people on this list, but I don't
> see a problem with the both names you mention.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Huib
> --
>
> Http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/user:Abigor
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

I'm going to second Huib on this one. Thomas and Anthony certainly
are active posters, but they haven't done anything out of line that requires
moderation. Depending on the thread, you can easily see other people
seem to dominate. This is natural as some things are more interesting
than others. There's times when I am one of the active posters; just not
recently :)

This list has really high traffic (depending on season, it fluctuates a bit)
and it can be a bit overwhelming at times. Moderation isn't the answer
though. The signal to noise ratio here remains fairly decent, so we wouldn't
really gain anything through moderation (except some very tired mods!)

-Chad

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valdelli at gmail

Aug 28, 2009, 11:54 AM

Post #5 of 76 (1788 views)
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Re: moderate this list [In reply to]

Chad wrote:
> This list has really high traffic (depending on season, it fluctuates a bit)
> and it can be a bit overwhelming at times. Moderation isn't the answer
> though. The signal to noise ratio here remains fairly decent, so we wouldn't
> really gain anything through moderation (except some very tired mods!)
>
> -Chad
>
Yes, but keep in mind that active <> constructive.

I agree with Anders in this meaning, no moderation is required but
probably a call to the common sense of moderation ("Est modus in rebus").

Ilario

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zvandijk at googlemail

Aug 28, 2009, 12:35 PM

Post #6 of 76 (1788 views)
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Re: moderate this list [In reply to]

Maybe it would be enough to have someone to tell those people that
they have expressed what is on their mind and should no longer bother
the others. But, if that does not help, more measurements should be
considered.
To begin with, we should be more disciplined in order not to feed the trolls.
Ziko

2009/8/28 Ilario Valdelli <valdelli [at] gmail>:
> Chad wrote:
>> This list has really high traffic (depending on season, it fluctuates a bit)
>> and it can be a bit overwhelming at times. Moderation isn't the answer
>> though. The signal to noise ratio here remains fairly decent, so we wouldn't
>> really gain anything through moderation (except some very tired mods!)
>>
>> -Chad
>>
> Yes, but keep in mind that active <> constructive.
>
> I agree with Anders in this meaning, no moderation is required but
> probably a call to the common sense of moderation ("Est modus in rebus").
>
> Ilario
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

--
Ziko van Dijk
NL-Silvolde

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wikimail at inbox

Aug 28, 2009, 12:38 PM

Post #7 of 76 (1787 views)
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Re: moderate this list [In reply to]

On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 3:35 PM, Ziko van Dijk <zvandijk [at] googlemail>wrote:

> Maybe it would be enough to have someone to tell those people that
> they have expressed what is on their mind and should no longer bother
> the others.

You could try that, but I have a feeling that those people, unlike those
other people, know how to use their email filters.
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thomas.dalton at gmail

Aug 28, 2009, 12:57 PM

Post #8 of 76 (1790 views)
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Re: moderate this list [In reply to]

2009/8/28 Anthony <wikimail [at] inbox>:
> On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 3:35 PM, Ziko van Dijk <zvandijk [at] googlemail>wrote:
>
>> Maybe it would be enough to have someone to tell those people that
>> they have expressed what is on their mind and should no longer bother
>> the others.
>
>
> You could try that, but I have a feeling that those people, unlike those
> other people, know how to use their email filters.

Personally, I use an email filter called "my brain". I look at subject
lines and I don't read emails that don't interest me. It has worked
for years with great success.

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liamwyatt at gmail

Aug 28, 2009, 1:09 PM

Post #9 of 76 (1786 views)
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Re: moderate this list [In reply to]

On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 7:57 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton [at] gmail>wrote:

> 2009/8/28 Anthony <wikimail [at] inbox>:
> > On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 3:35 PM, Ziko van Dijk <zvandijk [at] googlemail
> >wrote:
> >
> >> Maybe it would be enough to have someone to tell those people that
> >> they have expressed what is on their mind and should no longer bother
> >> the others.
> >
> >
> > You could try that, but I have a feeling that those people, unlike those
> > other people, know how to use their email filters.
>
> Personally, I use an email filter called "my brain". I look at subject
> lines and I don't read emails that don't interest me. It has worked
> for years with great success.

Hmm... you must be interested in lots of things then....

>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

--
wittylama.com/blog
Peace, love & metadata
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thomas.dalton at gmail

Aug 28, 2009, 1:35 PM

Post #10 of 76 (1788 views)
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Re: moderate this list [In reply to]

2009/8/28 Liam Wyatt <liamwyatt [at] gmail>:
>> Personally, I use an email filter called "my brain". I look at subject
>> lines and I don't read emails that don't interest me. It has worked
>> for years with great success.
>
>
> Hmm... you must be interested in lots of things then....

You may want to go through the threads for the last month, say, and
see what proportion of them I have contributed to. I have never
actually counted, but I suspect it is a minority.

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innocentkiller at gmail

Aug 28, 2009, 1:36 PM

Post #11 of 76 (1779 views)
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Re: moderate this list [In reply to]

On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 4:35 PM, Thomas Dalton<thomas.dalton [at] gmail> wrote:
> 2009/8/28 Liam Wyatt <liamwyatt [at] gmail>:
>>> Personally, I use an email filter called "my brain". I look at subject
>>> lines and I don't read emails that don't interest me. It has worked
>>> for years with great success.
>>
>>
>> Hmm... you must be interested in lots of things then....
>
> You may want to go through the threads for the last month, say, and
> see what proportion of them I have contributed to. I have never
> actually counted, but I suspect it is a minority.
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

Maybe so, but the threads you have contributed to contain quite a
number of posts :)

-Chad

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wikimail at inbox

Aug 28, 2009, 1:42 PM

Post #12 of 76 (1785 views)
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Re: moderate this list [In reply to]

On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 4:35 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton [at] gmail>wrote:

> 2009/8/28 Liam Wyatt <liamwyatt [at] gmail>:
> >> Personally, I use an email filter called "my brain". I look at subject
> >> lines and I don't read emails that don't interest me. It has worked
> >> for years with great success.
> >
> >
> > Hmm... you must be interested in lots of things then....
>
> You may want to go through the threads for the last month, say, and
> see what proportion of them I have contributed to. I have never
> actually counted, but I suspect it is a minority.
>

I'm absolutely sure mine is a minority. There are a lot of important things
going on right now. That's why Thomas and I have been so talkative lately.
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puppy at killerchihuahua

Aug 28, 2009, 1:46 PM

Post #13 of 76 (1790 views)
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Re: moderate this list [In reply to]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Liam Wyatt" <liamwyatt [at] gmail>
To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" <foundation-l [at] lists>
Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 4:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] moderate this list

> On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 7:57 PM, Thomas Dalton
> <thomas.dalton [at] gmail>wrote:
>
>> 2009/8/28 Anthony <wikimail [at] inbox>:
>> > On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 3:35 PM, Ziko van Dijk <zvandijk [at] googlemail
>> >wrote:
>> >
>> >> Maybe it would be enough to have someone to tell those people that
>> >> they have expressed what is on their mind and should no longer bother
>> >> the others.
>> >
>> >
>> > You could try that, but I have a feeling that those people, unlike
>> > those
>> > other people, know how to use their email filters.
>>
>> Personally, I use an email filter called "my brain". I look at subject
>> lines and I don't read emails that don't interest me. It has worked
>> for years with great success.
>
>
> Hmm... you must be interested in lots of things then....
>

Which is all to the good, SFAICS. I ignore a lot more threads than Anthony
or Dalton or Gerard and the other more active people here - but I know at
least some experienced knowledgable people will be looking at every thread -
possibly not the /same/ knowledgable active people, but someone from that
pool of individuals, and I am glad they are available and have the time and
energy to do so. I fail to see how this is an issue.

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node.ue at gmail

Aug 28, 2009, 4:33 PM

Post #14 of 76 (1778 views)
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Re: moderate this list [In reply to]

This isn't just a recent thing:

http://www.infodisiac.com/Wikipedia/ScanMail/Anthony.html
http://www.infodisiac.com/Wikipedia/ScanMail/Thomas_Dalton.html

Posting a lot isn't necessarily a bad thing though, although in my own
experience, the less I talk the more people listen:

http://www.infodisiac.com/Wikipedia/ScanMail/Mark_Williamson.html

I went from a high of 154 posts in February 2005, last month I made
just 14. I'm still here, I still read most posts. In fact, I have made
at least one post to this list in every month since September 2004
with only one exception (July 2007) but I expect that people who have
been reading my posts from then until now would agree that I'm doing
more with less.

Mark

On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 1:42 PM, Anthony<wikimail [at] inbox> wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 4:35 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton [at] gmail>wrote:
>
>> 2009/8/28 Liam Wyatt <liamwyatt [at] gmail>:
>> >> Personally, I use an email filter called "my brain". I look at subject
>> >> lines and I don't read emails that don't interest me. It has worked
>> >> for years with great success.
>> >
>> >
>> > Hmm... you must be interested in lots of things then....
>>
>> You may want to go through the threads for the last month, say, and
>> see what proportion of them I have contributed to. I have never
>> actually counted, but I suspect it is a minority.
>>
>
> I'm absolutely sure mine is a minority. �There are a lot of important things
> going on right now. �That's why Thomas and I have been so talkative lately.
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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node.ue at gmail

Aug 28, 2009, 4:35 PM

Post #15 of 76 (1777 views)
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Re: moderate this list [In reply to]

A quick correction (at the risk of adding to my post count for this month (-;)

I have not posted to this list every month since September 2004, I was
including posts at Wikipedia-l. However, I think that's pretty
reasonable considering that list is largely dormant and Foundation-l
has widened in scope to absorb it.

skype: node.ue

On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 4:33 PM, Mark Williamson<node.ue [at] gmail> wrote:
> This isn't just a recent thing:
>
> http://www.infodisiac.com/Wikipedia/ScanMail/Anthony.html
> http://www.infodisiac.com/Wikipedia/ScanMail/Thomas_Dalton.html
>
> Posting a lot isn't necessarily a bad thing though, although in my own
> experience, the less I talk the more people listen:
>
> http://www.infodisiac.com/Wikipedia/ScanMail/Mark_Williamson.html
>
> I went from a high of 154 posts in February 2005, last month I made
> just 14. I'm still here, I still read most posts. In fact, I have made
> at least one post to this list in every month since September 2004
> with only one exception (July 2007) but I expect that people who have
> been reading my posts from then until now would agree that I'm doing
> more with less.
>
> Mark
>
> On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 1:42 PM, Anthony<wikimail [at] inbox> wrote:
>> On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 4:35 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton [at] gmail>wrote:
>>
>>> 2009/8/28 Liam Wyatt <liamwyatt [at] gmail>:
>>> >> Personally, I use an email filter called "my brain". I look at subject
>>> >> lines and I don't read emails that don't interest me. It has worked
>>> >> for years with great success.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Hmm... you must be interested in lots of things then....
>>>
>>> You may want to go through the threads for the last month, say, and
>>> see what proportion of them I have contributed to. I have never
>>> actually counted, but I suspect it is a minority.
>>>
>>
>> I'm absolutely sure mine is a minority. �There are a lot of important things
>> going on right now. �That's why Thomas and I have been so talkative lately.
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> foundation-l [at] lists
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
>

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cimonavaro at gmail

Aug 28, 2009, 11:24 PM

Post #16 of 76 (1778 views)
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Re: moderate this list [In reply to]

Thomas Dalton wrote:
> 2009/8/28 Anders Wennersten <anders.wennersten [at] bonetmail>:
>
>> I have only been on this list for a month, but I am confused over what I
>> read. There are over 700 subscribers, but two, Anthony and Thoams Dalton
>> is allowed, to generate more then a third of all entries and often just
>> these two are driving a whole thread discussion. On Wikipedia we all
>> work hard to work for consensus (all voices are welcome) and stop people
>> dominating a subject. Why is it allowed for two persons to take over a
>> list like it is done here?
>>
>
> We haven't taken anything over. There is nothing stopping anyone else
> from contributing to the discussion as well.
>
>

Other than good sense. (Contributing endless reams of text, that is.)

Yours,

Jussi-Ville Heiskanen

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node.ue at gmail

Aug 28, 2009, 11:50 PM

Post #17 of 76 (1777 views)
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Re: moderate this list [In reply to]

Exactly. If you write too many messages, you run the risk that the
majority will start to habitually skip over (most of) your messages.

Think of it this way (this is a very simplistic model I think, I'm not
an economist): when the central bank of a country prints too much
currency, this can cause the value of the currency to go down.

Similarly, if there is a famous painter who only made 5 paintings,
they will probably fetch a higher price than if s/he had made 500.
It's fine if you always have something to say but I think we have all
(the more prolific posters here) been guilty of posting two or three
(or more) replies to the same thread at once without waiting for
others when we could have consolidated into a single e-mail.

Also, in my opinion (and yours may be different), although I do have
an opinion on nearly every thread on this list, it is not always
necessary for everybody to know what I think; this is after all a
platform for discussion, not for people to come and find out how I
feel about things.

Mark

skype: node.ue

On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 11:24 PM, Jussi-Ville
Heiskanen<cimonavaro [at] gmail> wrote:
> Thomas Dalton wrote:
>> 2009/8/28 Anders Wennersten <anders.wennersten [at] bonetmail>:
>>
>>> I have only been on this list for a month, but I am confused over what I
>>> read. There are over 700 subscribers, but two, Anthony and Thoams Dalton
>>> is allowed, to generate more then a third of all entries and often just
>>> these two are driving a whole thread discussion. On Wikipedia we all
>>> work hard to work for consensus (all voices are welcome) and stop people
>>> dominating a subject. Why is it allowed for two persons to take over a
>>> list like it is done here?
>>>
>>
>> We haven't taken anything over. There is nothing stopping anyone else
>> from contributing to the discussion as well.
>>
>>
>
> Other than good sense. (Contributing endless reams of text, that is.)
>
>
> Yours,
>
> Jussi-Ville Heiskanen
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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anders.wennersten at bonetmail

Aug 29, 2009, 1:27 AM

Post #18 of 76 (1761 views)
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Re: moderate this list [In reply to]

One idea could be to introduce a rule that each user should limit
his/her entries to maximum one/day and thread

I am sure this would lead to better quality, without stopping valuable
input, and make the list much more comprehensive and useful. (With this
rule last days 80 entires would probalbly been limited to something like 20)

foundation-l is a resource that could be made to be of much use and
importance if just the chattiness was limited
Anders

Mark Williamson skrev:
> Exactly. If you write too many messages, you run the risk that the
> majority will start to habitually skip over (most of) your messages.
>
> Think of it this way (this is a very simplistic model I think, I'm not
> an economist): when the central bank of a country prints too much
> currency, this can cause the value of the currency to go down.
>
> Similarly, if there is a famous painter who only made 5 paintings,
> they will probably fetch a higher price than if s/he had made 500.
> It's fine if you always have something to say but I think we have all
> (the more prolific posters here) been guilty of posting two or three
> (or more) replies to the same thread at once without waiting for
> others when we could have consolidated into a single e-mail.
>
> Also, in my opinion (and yours may be different), although I do have
> an opinion on nearly every thread on this list, it is not always
> necessary for everybody to know what I think; this is after all a
> platform for discussion, not for people to come and find out how I
> feel about things.
>
> Mark
>
> skype: node.ue
>
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 11:24 PM, Jussi-Ville
> Heiskanen<cimonavaro [at] gmail> wrote:
>
>> Thomas Dalton wrote:
>>
>>> 2009/8/28 Anders Wennersten <anders.wennersten [at] bonetmail>:
>>>
>>>
>>>> I have only been on this list for a month, but I am confused over what I
>>>> read. There are over 700 subscribers, but two, Anthony and Thoams Dalton
>>>> is allowed, to generate more then a third of all entries and often just
>>>> these two are driving a whole thread discussion. On Wikipedia we all
>>>> work hard to work for consensus (all voices are welcome) and stop people
>>>> dominating a subject. Why is it allowed for two persons to take over a
>>>> list like it is done here?
>>>>
>>>>
>>> We haven't taken anything over. There is nothing stopping anyone else
>>> from contributing to the discussion as well.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Other than good sense. (Contributing endless reams of text, that is.)
>>
>>
>> Yours,
>>
>> Jussi-Ville Heiskanen
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> foundation-l [at] lists
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>

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node.ue at gmail

Aug 29, 2009, 1:55 AM

Post #19 of 76 (1762 views)
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Re: moderate this list [In reply to]

I think it's a bit tricky to impose such a specific limit. I think one
post a day is quite low for what is supposed to be a venue for
discussion - we simply don't have enough people here for that.

However, I think it would be quite reasonable to ask people to try to
moderate themselves. If you are frustrated because the mails are
filling up your inbox, then this is not exactly the solution.
Foundation-l is a relatively high traffic list, even without Anthony
and Thomas Dalton there will be enough e-mails on some days that it
will overwhelm the inboxes of many people who do not use threaded
e-mail software. Although I agree that there is a definite occurance
of over-posting, I do not think we should slow discussion so much just
because it can be inconvenient for people who have not or do not wish
to switch to e-mail systems that are more suitable for high traffic
mailinglists.

Mark

skype: node.ue

On Sat, Aug 29, 2009 at 1:27 AM, Anders
Wennersten<anders.wennersten [at] bonetmail> wrote:
> One idea could be to introduce a rule that each user should limit
> his/her entries to maximum one/day and thread
>
> I am sure this would lead to better quality, without stopping valuable
> input, and make the list much more comprehensive and useful. (With this
> rule last days 80 entires would probalbly been limited to something like 20)
>
> foundation-l is a resource that could be made to be of much use and
> importance if just the chattiness was limited
> �Anders
>
>
> Mark Williamson skrev:
>> Exactly. If you write too many messages, you run the risk that the
>> majority will start to habitually skip over (most of) your messages.
>>
>> Think of it this way (this is a very simplistic model I think, I'm not
>> an economist): when the central bank of a country prints too much
>> currency, this can cause the value of the currency to go down.
>>
>> Similarly, if there is a famous painter who only made 5 paintings,
>> they will probably fetch a higher price than if s/he had made 500.
>> It's fine if you always have something to say but I think we have all
>> (the more prolific posters here) been guilty of posting two or three
>> (or more) replies to the same thread at once without waiting for
>> others when we could have consolidated into a single e-mail.
>>
>> Also, in my opinion (and yours may be different), although I do have
>> an opinion on nearly every thread on this list, it is not always
>> necessary for everybody to know what I think; this is after all a
>> platform for discussion, not for people to come and find out how I
>> feel about things.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> skype: node.ue
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 11:24 PM, Jussi-Ville
>> Heiskanen<cimonavaro [at] gmail> wrote:
>>
>>> Thomas Dalton wrote:
>>>
>>>> 2009/8/28 Anders Wennersten <anders.wennersten [at] bonetmail>:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I have only been on this list for a month, but I am confused over what I
>>>>> read. There are over 700 subscribers, but two, Anthony and Thoams Dalton
>>>>> is allowed, to generate more then a third of all entries and often just
>>>>> these two are driving a whole thread discussion. On Wikipedia we all
>>>>> work hard to work for consensus (all voices are welcome) and stop people
>>>>> dominating a subject. Why is it allowed for two persons to take over a
>>>>> list like it is done here?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> We haven't taken anything over. There is nothing stopping anyone else
>>>> from contributing to the discussion as well.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Other than good sense. (Contributing endless reams of text, that is.)
>>>
>>>
>>> Yours,
>>>
>>> Jussi-Ville Heiskanen
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> foundation-l mailing list
>>> foundation-l [at] lists
>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> foundation-l [at] lists
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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wikimail at inbox

Aug 29, 2009, 4:50 AM

Post #20 of 76 (1755 views)
Permalink

Re: moderate this list [In reply to]

On Sat, Aug 29, 2009 at 2:50 AM, Mark Williamson <node.ue [at] gmail> wrote:
>
> Similarly, if there is a famous painter who only made 5 paintings,
> they will probably fetch a higher price than if s/he had made 500.

And what if they're not selling their paintings? What if they just like to
paint?

I'm not here to sell my posts. I'm not here to try to convince anyone of
anything. I'm here to discuss. If some people are participating in a
discussion with me, I'm going to continue to have it, at whatever pace it
goes. If some other people aren't interested, there are lots of tools
available to filter out those conversations.

I'm sure all of you can figure out a way of setting up your email client so
it can work for you. If not, the archives are available online. There's no
reason you have to have this mailing list emailed to you in the first place.
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gerard.meijssen at gmail

Aug 29, 2009, 5:10 AM

Post #21 of 76 (1756 views)
Permalink

Re: moderate this list [In reply to]

Hoi,
When you are not here to convince but only their to talk, it is not
reasonable to abuse this mailing list where people want to inform, convince,
reach consensus. The generation of noise that you apparently consider ok for
this list wastes a lot of time. With so many words you say that your
contributions are not necessarily meant to have an effect, as a consequence
I would prefer it when you limit your activity to things where you
personally are willing to make a difference.
Thanks,
GerardM

2009/8/29 Anthony <wikimail [at] inbox>

> On Sat, Aug 29, 2009 at 2:50 AM, Mark Williamson <node.ue [at] gmail>
> wrote:
> >
> > Similarly, if there is a famous painter who only made 5 paintings,
> > they will probably fetch a higher price than if s/he had made 500.
>
>
> And what if they're not selling their paintings? What if they just like to
> paint?
>
> I'm not here to sell my posts. I'm not here to try to convince anyone of
> anything. I'm here to discuss. If some people are participating in a
> discussion with me, I'm going to continue to have it, at whatever pace it
> goes. If some other people aren't interested, there are lots of tools
> available to filter out those conversations.
>
> I'm sure all of you can figure out a way of setting up your email client so
> it can work for you. If not, the archives are available online. There's
> no
> reason you have to have this mailing list emailed to you in the first
> place.
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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wikimail at inbox

Aug 29, 2009, 5:15 AM

Post #22 of 76 (1753 views)
Permalink

Re: moderate this list [In reply to]

On Sat, Aug 29, 2009 at 4:27 AM, Anders Wennersten <
anders.wennersten [at] bonetmail> wrote:

> One idea could be to introduce a rule that each user should limit
> his/her entries to maximum one/day and thread
>
> I am sure this would lead to better quality, without stopping valuable
> input, and make the list much more comprehensive and useful. (With this
> rule last days 80 entires would probalbly been limited to something like
> 20)
>

I really don't understand what use you're trying to get out of this mailing
list. You say "On Wikipedia we all
work hard to work for consensus (all voices are welcome) and stop
people dominating a subject." Maybe what you want is a wiki, and not an
unmoderated mailing list?
Could you give an example of an unmoderated mailing list which has
successfully imposed a rule such as the one you suggest? I don't think it's
going to succeed in providing the usefulness you desire, and I'm sure it's
going to destroy the usefulness that Thomas, myself, and many others on this
list do desire.

If you'd like to start a moderated foundation-l, in addition to the regular
foundation-l, that might be useful. But it's considerably inappropriate for
you to sign up for a mailing list that many of us have been enjoying for
years and in one month decide you want to alter it to suit your tastes.
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fredbaud at fairpoint

Aug 29, 2009, 5:30 AM

Post #23 of 76 (1759 views)
Permalink

Re: moderate this list [In reply to]

Yes, I delete pages of messages every day, and some of the posters to
Wikipedia lists are among them. They are just not worth the time it takes
to open them. They are just never part of the solution.

Fred

> Exactly. If you write too many messages, you run the risk that the
> majority will start to habitually skip over (most of) your messages.
>
> Think of it this way (this is a very simplistic model I think, I'm not
> an economist): when the central bank of a country prints too much
> currency, this can cause the value of the currency to go down.
>
> Similarly, if there is a famous painter who only made 5 paintings,
> they will probably fetch a higher price than if s/he had made 500.
> It's fine if you always have something to say but I think we have all
> (the more prolific posters here) been guilty of posting two or three
> (or more) replies to the same thread at once without waiting for
> others when we could have consolidated into a single e-mail.
>
> Also, in my opinion (and yours may be different), although I do have
> an opinion on nearly every thread on this list, it is not always
> necessary for everybody to know what I think; this is after all a
> platform for discussion, not for people to come and find out how I
> feel about things.
>
> Mark
>
> skype: node.ue
>
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 11:24 PM, Jussi-Ville
> Heiskanen<cimonavaro [at] gmail> wrote:
>> Thomas Dalton wrote:
>>> 2009/8/28 Anders Wennersten <anders.wennersten [at] bonetmail>:
>>>
>>>> I have only been on this list for a month, but I am confused over
>>>> what I
>>>> read. There are over 700 subscribers, but two, Anthony and Thoams
>>>> Dalton
>>>> is allowed, to generate more then a third of all entries and often
>>>> just
>>>> these two are driving a whole thread discussion. On Wikipedia we all
>>>> work hard to work for consensus (all voices are welcome) and stop
>>>> people
>>>> dominating a subject. Why is it allowed for two persons to take over
>>>> a
>>>> list like it is done here?
>>>>
>>>
>>> We haven't taken anything over. There is nothing stopping anyone else
>>> from contributing to the discussion as well.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Other than good sense. (Contributing endless reams of text, that is.)
>>
>>
>> Yours,
>>
>> Jussi-Ville Heiskanen
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> foundation-l [at] lists
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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brianna.laugher at gmail

Aug 29, 2009, 7:36 AM

Post #24 of 76 (1755 views)
Permalink

Re: moderate this list [In reply to]

2009/8/29 Anthony <wikimail [at] inbox>:
> If you'd like to start a moderated foundation-l, in addition to the regular
> foundation-l, that might be useful. �But it's considerably inappropriate for
> you to sign up for a mailing list that many of us have been enjoying for
> years and in one month decide you want to alter it to suit your tastes.

"Enjoying"? Maybe more accurate for many of us is "barely tolerating".

I am with Anders. It is not just a matter of learning to use an email
client properly. Considered posts are soon piled under dozens of
back-and-forth-over-minor-details responses.

But it doesn't seem the culture of foundation-l at this point would
allow moderation to make it a more proportionate place. Which is a
shame as in theory it is our main Wikimedia-wide channel of
communication, and must be terribly off-putting for newcomers.

Brianna

--
They've just been waiting in a mountain for the right moment:
http://modernthings.org/

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birgitte_sb at yahoo

Aug 29, 2009, 8:18 AM

Post #25 of 76 (1752 views)
Permalink

Re: moderate this list [In reply to]

--- On Sat, 8/29/09, Brianna Laugher <brianna.laugher [at] gmail> wrote:

> From: Brianna Laugher <brianna.laugher [at] gmail>
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] moderate this list
> To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" <foundation-l [at] lists>
> Date: Saturday, August 29, 2009, 9:36 AM
> 2009/8/29 Anthony <wikimail [at] inbox>:
> > If you'd like to start a moderated foundation-l, in
> addition to the regular
> > foundation-l, that might be useful. �But it's
> considerably inappropriate for
> > you to sign up for a mailing list that many of us have
> been enjoying for
> > years and in one month decide you want to alter it to
> suit your tastes.
>
> "Enjoying"? Maybe more accurate for many of us is "barely
> tolerating".
>
> I am with Anders. It is not just a matter of learning to
> use an email
> client properly. Considered posts are soon piled under
> dozens of
> back-and-forth-over-minor-details responses.
>
> But it doesn't seem the culture of foundation-l at this
> point would
> allow moderation to make it a more proportionate place.
> Which is a
> shame as in theory it is our main Wikimedia-wide channel
> of
> communication, and must be terribly off-putting for
> newcomers.
>

I am only still subscribed because I blacklist several people who I find excessive (although not Anthony). But I don't think moderation as answer here. Who would dare to take on the chore of moderator and what will be the result. Look at what happened the last time someone was moderated; we had how many messages full of smears about the moderation itself? I don't know exactly the number because I quickly adjusted my blacklist to the poster's new email address. I wonder if no one responds to Thomas Dalton for a month how much he will continue to post. I understand why people want moderation, but I don't think it is practical. However, filters solve a majority of the problem. The biggest help would be people resisting the urge to reply when someone is obviously looking for a debate for debate's sake.

Birgitte SB

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