Mailing List Archive: Wikipedia: Foundation

Re: Wikipedia tracks user behaviour via third party companies #2

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gtisza at gmail

Jun 5, 2009, 1:49 PM

Post #1 of 12 (601 views)
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Re: Wikipedia tracks user behaviour via third party companies #2

Bence Damokos <bdamokos[at]...> writes:

> I'd like to note in the interest of facts that the Huwp stats have been
> implemented (without complaint till now, June 2009) since October 2006; the
> current version of the privacy policy has been available in English since
> October 2008.

It was implemented in October 2005, actually (not long after the knams stats
stopped IIRC); MediaWiki:Lastmodifiedat replaced an earlier message in 2006,
that is why the page history doesn't go back further.

More importantly, the privacy policy explicitly states that developers might
have access to the raw logs. The stat is thus in compliance with the letter of
the privacy policy, and I don't see why it would be countrary of its spirit. (As
stated, the only purpose is to provide statistics which include no personally
identifiable information; the operator is one of the most trusted users of the
hu.wp community, the founder of the community, the head of Wikimedia Hungary,
admin, bureaucrat, checkuser, whatnot; and the stat server was operated with the
knowledge and consent of the community. It is linked from the statistics page
and other relevant places, not exactly a secret.)

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benno79 at freemail

Jun 5, 2009, 1:55 PM

Post #2 of 12 (569 views)
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Re: Wikipedia tracks user behaviour via third party companies #2 [In reply to]

And that without any complain from 2005 onward (practically from the
beginning of huwiki's real existence).

B.

-----Original Message-----
It is linked from the statistics page and other relevant places, not exactly
a secret.)

__________ ESET Smart Security - Vírusdefiníciós adatbázis: 4134 (20090605)
__________

Az üzenetet az ESET Smart Security ellenorizte.

http://www.eset.hu

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newsmarkie at googlemail

Jun 5, 2009, 2:08 PM

Post #3 of 12 (570 views)
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Re: Wikipedia tracks user behaviour via third party companies #2 [In reply to]

On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 9:49 PM, Tisza Gergõ <gtisza[at]gmail.com> wrote:

> Bence Damokos <bdamokos[at]...> writes:
>
> > I'd like to note in the interest of facts that the Huwp stats have been
> > implemented (without complaint till now, June 2009) since October 2006;
> the
> > current version of the privacy policy has been available in English since
> > October 2008.
>
> It was implemented in October 2005, actually (not long after the knams
> stats
> stopped IIRC); MediaWiki:Lastmodifiedat replaced an earlier message in
> 2006,
> that is why the page history doesn't go back further.
>
> More importantly, the privacy policy explicitly states that developers
> might
> have access to the raw logs. The stat is thus in compliance with the letter
> of
> the privacy policy, and I don't see why it would be countrary of its
> spirit. (As
> stated, the only purpose is to provide statistics which include no
> personally
> identifiable information; the operator is one of the most trusted users of
> the
> hu.wp community, the founder of the community, the head of Wikimedia
> Hungary,
> admin, bureaucrat, checkuser, whatnot; and the stat server was operated
> with the
> knowledge and consent of the community. It is linked from the statistics
> page
> and other relevant places, not exactly a secret.)
>

There are a few issues with this. Devs have access to logs on WMF servers,
not random external servers. The community cannot decide that Random_user1
and Random_user2 etc will agree with the communities view on the stats being
passed to an external server. Also there *may* be issues with the security
of that server that means it could be compromised and could probably be
accessed by the web hosting company if they so wished.

I still fail to see how, at this point (not before when there was no policy)
this can be considered to be acceptable. IP information etc is still being
passed to an external server, regardless of who it is being operated by. As
we can see at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Privacy and copied below I
don't see where this is acceptable.

Release: Policy on Release of Data

It is the policy of Wikimedia that personally identifiable data collected in
the server logs, or through records in the database via the CheckUser
feature, or through other non-publicly-available methods, may be released by
Wikimedia volunteers or staff, in any of the following situations:

1. In response to a valid subpoena or other compulsory request from law
enforcement,
2. With permission of the affected user,
3. When necessary for investigation of abuse complaints,
4. Where the information pertains to page views generated by a spider or
bot and its dissemination is necessary to illustrate or resolve technical
issues,
5. Where the user has been vandalizing articles or persistently behaving
in a disruptive way, data may be released to a service provider, carrier, or
other third-party entity to assist in the targeting of IP blocks, or to
assist in the formulation of a complaint to relevant Internet Service
Providers,
6. Where it is reasonably necessary to protect the rights, property or
safety of the Wikimedia Foundation, its users or the public.

Except as described above, Wikimedia policy does not permit distribution of
personally identifiable information under any circumstances.

Regards

Mark

>
>
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gtisza at gmail

Jun 5, 2009, 2:22 PM

Post #4 of 12 (575 views)
Permalink

Re: Wikipedia tracks user behaviour via third party companies #2 [In reply to]

Nathan <nawrich[at]...> writes:

> Others have since discussed more centralised and secure methods for
> providing these statistics via the WMF - this is the ideal outcome, and one
> that might have been achieved earlier had you proposed your method rather
> than simply going ahead alone.

Setting up an off-the-shelf awstats with an invisible pixel is web statistics
101, not something that needs to be invented. The reason nothing similar got
implemented is not that nobody thought of this method, but that it wouldn't work
with enwiki so nobody cared. Actually, the old knams stat (which also collected
referrers, so it was in some aspects superior) could have been easily kept
working by filtering out enwiki, and maybe the next few largest projects; again,
nobody cared. Features that only benefit the smaller projects rarely get enough
developer interest, which is understandable, but then it is only natural that
those smaller projects try to solve their issues for themselves. And we did it
with privacy in mind - we would have obviously preferred Google Analytics
ourselves, but we didn't switch because we didn't want the logs to leak to
servers not controlled by WM community, and because it shows data that can be
used to identify IP adresses.

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gtisza at gmail

Jun 5, 2009, 2:44 PM

Post #5 of 12 (571 views)
Permalink

Re: Wikipedia tracks user behaviour via third party companies #2 [In reply to]

Mark (Markie <newsmarkie[at]...> writes:

> I still fail to see how, at this point (not before when there was no policy)
> this can be considered to be acceptable. IP information etc is still being
> passed to an external server, regardless of who it is being operated by. As
> we can see at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Privacy and copied below I
> don't see where this is acceptable.
>
> Release: Policy on Release of Data
>
> It is the policy of Wikimedia that personally identifiable data collected in
> the server logs, or through records in the database via the CheckUser
> feature, or through other non-publicly-available methods, may be released by
> Wikimedia volunteers or staff, in any of the following situations:
>
> 1. In response to a valid subpoena or other compulsory request from law
> enforcement,
> 2. With permission of the affected user,
> 3. When necessary for investigation of abuse complaints,
> 4. Where the information pertains to page views generated by a spider or
> bot and its dissemination is necessary to illustrate or resolve technical
> issues,
> 5. Where the user has been vandalizing articles or persistently behaving
> in a disruptive way, data may be released to a service provider, carrier, or
> other third-party entity to assist in the targeting of IP blocks, or to
> assist in the formulation of a complaint to relevant Internet Service
> Providers,
> 6. Where it is reasonably necessary to protect the rights, property or
> safety of the Wikimedia Foundation, its users or the public.
>
> Except as described above, Wikimedia policy does not permit distribution of
> personally identifiable information under any circumstances.

It also says, a few sentences earlier, that "Sharing information with other
privileged users is not considered distribution." And Peter has identified
himself to the foundation according to the access to nonpublic data policy, so
he is a privileged user. I still don't see any violation there - the point of
the privacy policy is to regulate release of personally identifiable information
from those who have access to those who have not, and in this case no such
release happened.

> Also there *may* be issues with the security
> of that server that means it could be compromised and could probably be
> accessed by the web hosting company if they so wished.

Peter is CTO of a Hungarian ISP; he is the one hosting the server, and he
certainly has the required expertise. Anyway, the privacy policy explicitly
disclaims any responsibility for unauthorized access; while the security of the
server is certainly a valid issue, it is not an issue with the privacy policy.

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pdsanchez at gmail

Jun 5, 2009, 2:52 PM

Post #6 of 12 (567 views)
Permalink

Re: Wikipedia tracks user behaviour via third party companies #2 [In reply to]

On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 4:44 PM, Tisza Gergõ <gtisza[at]gmail.com> wrote:

> Mark (Markie <newsmarkie[at]...> writes:
>
> > I still fail to see how, at this point (not before when there was no
> policy)
> > this can be considered to be acceptable. IP information etc is still
> being
> > passed to an external server, regardless of who it is being operated by.
> As
> > we can see at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Privacy and copied below I
> > don't see where this is acceptable.
> >
> > Release: Policy on Release of Data
> >
> > It is the policy of Wikimedia that personally identifiable data collected
> in
> > the server logs, or through records in the database via the CheckUser
> > feature, or through other non-publicly-available methods, may be released
> by
> > Wikimedia volunteers or staff, in any of the following situations:
> >
> > 1. In response to a valid subpoena or other compulsory request from
> law
> > enforcement,
> > 2. With permission of the affected user,
> > 3. When necessary for investigation of abuse complaints,
> > 4. Where the information pertains to page views generated by a spider
> or
> > bot and its dissemination is necessary to illustrate or resolve
> technical
> > issues,
> > 5. Where the user has been vandalizing articles or persistently
> behaving
> > in a disruptive way, data may be released to a service provider,
> carrier, or
> > other third-party entity to assist in the targeting of IP blocks, or
> to
> > assist in the formulation of a complaint to relevant Internet Service
> > Providers,
> > 6. Where it is reasonably necessary to protect the rights, property or
> > safety of the Wikimedia Foundation, its users or the public.
> >
> > Except as described above, Wikimedia policy does not permit distribution
> of
> > personally identifiable information under any circumstances.
>
> It also says, a few sentences earlier, that "Sharing information with other
> privileged users is not considered distribution." And Peter has identified
> himself to the foundation according to the access to nonpublic data policy,
> so
> he is a privileged user. I still don't see any violation there - the point
> of
> the privacy policy is to regulate release of personally identifiable
> information
> from those who have access to those who have not, and in this case no such
> release happened.
>

Minor correction: Privacy-related trusted users are required to be
identified to the foundation. Yes.
But doesn't work the other way: just by sending id to the foundation doesn't
make you automatically a trusted user for private data.

Peter may well be knowledgeable and trusted, but not becuse he has
identified to the foundation
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gtisza at gmail

Jun 5, 2009, 4:12 PM

Post #7 of 12 (568 views)
Permalink

Re: Wikipedia tracks user behaviour via third party companies #2 [In reply to]

Aryeh Gregor <Simetrical+wikilist[at]...> writes:

> I believe the major problems with the script are
>
> 1) It sent data to a server not directly controlled by the Wikimedia
> Foundation. No personally identifiable information should be sent in
> bulk to any non-Wikimedia server. Operation of any server hosting
> significant amounts of sensitive information must be directly and
> immediately accountable to Wikimedia's normal chain of command.

I don't think thats reasonable. WikiMiniAtlas, for example, is hosted by WM-DE,
thus every time it is used, IP data is sent to a non-WMF server. (Users have to
click to load it, but it is linked from every page that has coordinates, so it
can be considered bulk. And when it gets replaced with OSM, static map snippets
will be loaded by default from a WM-DE-owned cache server, if I understand the
setup correctly.)

Of course, there should be *some* limit on what servers can receive data. As I
said, the obvious choice for me would be to tie it to chapters (maybe it could
even be included in the chapter agreement?). That, and maybe WMF staff should
have root access for emergencies?

> 2) This use of data was not specifically authorized by the Wikimedia
> Foundation, via either the Board or appropriate officers. Peter may
> be a checkuser, but that gives him authorization only to use checkuser
> functions, not to collect or harvest other types of data. As has been
> noted, the data collected includes much more than checkusers can
> access in the course of using their checkuser rights.

Agreed. So consider this as a request for authorization :)

> Last I heard, Erik Zachte is working on improved statistics for all
> Wikimedia projects. These are running on Wikimedia servers and
> specifically approved by Wikimedia. It seems like the best course of
> action would be for people to point out what they think is lacking in
> his statistics, and perhaps offer to help improve them.

Certainly, but that in itself is no reason not to have another system for the
time being. It is not unheard of that developement of new features get delayed
by a few years :) We have a working system in place; I don't think it should be
removed just becuase there will be a better one at some indefinite point in
time. It can removed at that time just as well.

As for statistics-related feature requests, I would have quite a few :) Unique
visits/visitors, referrer data, country/browser/OS distribution (I seem to
recall seeing something like this in Erik's stats, but I can't find it now),
breakdown by action and by user group, search term statistics (without the
wikistics.falsicon.de JS hack), gadget usage data. An API would also be nice (so
that for example a user script can query the data for all internal links on the
page, and show a colormap - it would be a nice tool for designing the layouts of
portals).

(It would be somewhat unfair to say Erik's starts are lacking these, since our
stat can't measure most of them either. What I would miss most would be visitor
counts and browser distribution. Also, I think stats.grok.se and
wikistics.falsicon.de give slightly incorrect page view results because they
don't take redirects and special pages into account.)

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gtisza at gmail

Jun 6, 2009, 12:31 AM

Post #8 of 12 (561 views)
Permalink

Re: Wikipedia tracks user behaviour via third party companies #2 [In reply to]

Robert Rohde <rarohde[at]...> writes:

> You may not be aware, but the relaying of page view data to third
> party analysis platforms has been tried on a number of occasions in
> the past and consistently shutdown. (I think this even includes cases
> before the Privacy Policy was adopted.)
>
> However, to my recollection there has never been a case that quite
> mirrors yours since we are talking about a privately hosted server
> administered by a highly trusted community member.

The (WM-DE-owned) toolserver ran a statistics script called WikiCharts for a few
years, which worked with data relayed by Common.js from several wikipedias,
including de and en. While that is not exactly the same situation (as the WMF
has access to the toolserver), I think it proves my point that passing IP data
to an (in the strict organizational sense) third-party server does not
necessarily violate the privacy policy, neither letter nor spirit, as long as
that server remains within the larger WM community.

It is important to understand that this is a much more general question than
that of web statistics: any third-party service that interacts with the standard
wiki user interface receives private data, whether it needs it or not, because
the user interface (the HTML page) is "executed" in the user's browser, and the
browser has to contact the third-party service, and it cannot hide its IP in
that process. For example, we considered setting up some sort of spell checking
service for hu.wp. That is something that cannot be done well centrally - there
is too much difference between languages. And if you do it with a local server,
it has to communicate with the user's browser, and could in theory log requests
and correlate them with edits on the wiki, thus it has to conform with the
privacy guidelines. It would be a shame if all such uses would be blindly
forbidden because of vague privacy fears.

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newsmarkie at googlemail

Jun 6, 2009, 3:32 AM

Post #9 of 12 (561 views)
Permalink

Re: Wikipedia tracks user behaviour via third party companies #2 [In reply to]

On Sat, Jun 6, 2009 at 12:12 AM, Tisza Gergõ <gtisza[at]gmail.com> wrote:

> Aryeh Gregor <Simetrical+wikilist[at]...> writes:
>
> > I believe the major problems with the script are
> >
> > 1) It sent data to a server not directly controlled by the Wikimedia
> > Foundation. No personally identifiable information should be sent in
> > bulk to any non-Wikimedia server. Operation of any server hosting
> > significant amounts of sensitive information must be directly and
> > immediately accountable to Wikimedia's normal chain of command.
>
> I don't think thats reasonable. WikiMiniAtlas, for example, is hosted by
> WM-DE,
> thus every time it is used, IP data is sent to a non-WMF server. (Users
> have to
> click to load it, but it is linked from every page that has coordinates, so
> it
> can be considered bulk. And when it gets replaced with OSM, static map
> snippets
> will be loaded by default from a WM-DE-owned cache server, if I understand
> the
> setup correctly.)
>
> Of course, there should be *some* limit on what servers can receive data.
> As I
> said, the obvious choice for me would be to tie it to chapters (maybe it
> could
> even be included in the chapter agreement?). That, and maybe WMF staff
> should
> have root access for emergencies?
>

afaik roots on the toolserver who have access to logs have to be signed off
by the WMF before they are allowed access.

>
> > 2) This use of data was not specifically authorized by the Wikimedia
> > Foundation, via either the Board or appropriate officers. Peter may
> > be a checkuser, but that gives him authorization only to use checkuser
> > functions, not to collect or harvest other types of data. As has been
> > noted, the data collected includes much more than checkusers can
> > access in the course of using their checkuser rights.
>
> Agreed. So consider this as a request for authorization :)

he would obviously need to ask for this himself.

>
>
> > Last I heard, Erik Zachte is working on improved statistics for all
> > Wikimedia projects. These are running on Wikimedia servers and
> > specifically approved by Wikimedia. It seems like the best course of
> > action would be for people to point out what they think is lacking in
> > his statistics, and perhaps offer to help improve them.
>
> Certainly, but that in itself is no reason not to have another system for
> the
> time being. It is not unheard of that developement of new features get
> delayed
> by a few years :) We have a working system in place; I don't think it
> should be
> removed just becuase there will be a better one at some indefinite point in
> time. It can removed at that time just as well.
>
> As for statistics-related feature requests, I would have quite a few :)
> Unique
> visits/visitors, referrer data, country/browser/OS distribution (I seem to
> recall seeing something like this in Erik's stats, but I can't find it
> now),
> breakdown by action and by user group, search term statistics (without the
> wikistics.falsicon.de JS hack), gadget usage data. An API would also be
> nice (so
> that for example a user script can query the data for all internal links on
> the
> page, and show a colormap - it would be a nice tool for designing the
> layouts of
> portals).
>
> (It would be somewhat unfair to say Erik's starts are lacking these, since
> our
> stat can't measure most of them either. What I would miss most would be
> visitor
> counts and browser distribution. Also, I think stats.grok.se and
> wikistics.falsicon.de give slightly incorrect page view results because
> they
> don't take redirects and special pages into account.)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l[at]lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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removed at example

Jun 6, 2009, 11:19 AM

Post #10 of 12 (556 views)
Permalink

Re: Wikipedia tracks user behaviour via third party companies #2 [In reply to]

This is another e-mail on this subject that just strikes me as flawed. These
are not vague privacy fears - they are real privacy fears. I see a
fundamental failure by those involved in this controversy to understand this
point.

On Sat, Jun 6, 2009 at 1:31 AM, Tisza Gergõ <gtisza[at]gmail.com> wrote:

> Robert Rohde <rarohde[at]...> writes:
>
> > You may not be aware, but the relaying of page view data to third
> > party analysis platforms has been tried on a number of occasions in
> > the past and consistently shutdown. (I think this even includes cases
> > before the Privacy Policy was adopted.)
> >
> > However, to my recollection there has never been a case that quite
> > mirrors yours since we are talking about a privately hosted server
> > administered by a highly trusted community member.
>
> The (WM-DE-owned) toolserver ran a statistics script called WikiCharts for
> a few
> years, which worked with data relayed by Common.js from several wikipedias,
> including de and en. While that is not exactly the same situation (as the
> WMF
> has access to the toolserver), I think it proves my point that passing IP
> data
> to an (in the strict organizational sense) third-party server does not
> necessarily violate the privacy policy, neither letter nor spirit, as long
> as
> that server remains within the larger WM community.
>
> It is important to understand that this is a much more general question
> than
> that of web statistics: any third-party service that interacts with the
> standard
> wiki user interface receives private data, whether it needs it or not,
> because
> the user interface (the HTML page) is "executed" in the user's browser, and
> the
> browser has to contact the third-party service, and it cannot hide its IP
> in
> that process. For example, we considered setting up some sort of spell
> checking
> service for hu.wp. That is something that cannot be done well centrally -
> there
> is too much difference between languages. And if you do it with a local
> server,
> it has to communicate with the user's browser, and could in theory log
> requests
> and correlate them with edits on the wiki, thus it has to conform with the
> privacy guidelines. It would be a shame if all such uses would be blindly
> forbidden because of vague privacy fears.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l[at]lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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vacuum at jeb

Jun 6, 2009, 11:57 AM

Post #11 of 12 (558 views)
Permalink

Re: Wikipedia tracks user behaviour via third party companies #2 [In reply to]

The strange thingh is, some such servers seems to be outside discussion
while others are not. ;)

John

Tisza GergÅ‘ skrev:
> Nathan <nawrich[at]...> writes:
>
>> Others have since discussed more centralised and secure methods for
>> providing these statistics via the WMF - this is the ideal outcome, and one
>> that might have been achieved earlier had you proposed your method rather
>> than simply going ahead alone.
>
> Setting up an off-the-shelf awstats with an invisible pixel is web statistics
> 101, not something that needs to be invented. The reason nothing similar got
> implemented is not that nobody thought of this method, but that it wouldn't work
> with enwiki so nobody cared. Actually, the old knams stat (which also collected
> referrers, so it was in some aspects superior) could have been easily kept
> working by filtering out enwiki, and maybe the next few largest projects; again,
> nobody cared. Features that only benefit the smaller projects rarely get enough
> developer interest, which is understandable, but then it is only natural that
> those smaller projects try to solve their issues for themselves. And we did it
> with privacy in mind - we would have obviously preferred Google Analytics
> ourselves, but we didn't switch because we didn't want the logs to leak to
> servers not controlled by WM community, and because it shows data that can be
> used to identify IP adresses.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l[at]lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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WP at daniel

Jun 7, 2009, 12:51 PM

Post #12 of 12 (544 views)
Permalink

Re: Wikipedia tracks user behaviour via third party companies #2 [In reply to]

Hello,
Am Saturday 06 June 2009 09:31:58 schrieb Tisza GergÅ‘:
> The (WM-DE-owned) toolserver ran a statistics script called WikiCharts for
> a few years, which worked with data relayed by Common.js from several
> wikipedias, including de and en. While that is not exactly the same
> situation (as the WMF has access to the toolserver), I think it proves my
> point that passing IP data

let me say a word to this: We didn't collected any privacy-data. We logged no
IP or browserdata, only the page-name and the date. And we didn't collected
every view, but only a sample of it (1/500 in dewp for example).

Sincerly,
DaB.

--
wp-blog.de

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