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Google Wave and Wikimedia projects

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thomas.dalton at gmail

May 30, 2009, 5:16 PM

Post #51 of 78 (1571 views)
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Re: Google Wave and Wikimedia projects [In reply to]

2009/5/31 Lars Aronsson <lars [at] aronsson>:
> The idea of showing diffs since the user last viewed the same
> wave, is very similar to Flagged revisions.

How is it in any way like Flagged revisions?

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removed at example

May 30, 2009, 6:33 PM

Post #52 of 78 (1574 views)
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Re: Google Wave and Wikimedia projects [In reply to]

How does Google Wave help the WMF achieve its goals?
Wikipedia has already become a dominant information source for the 1.5
billion people with Internet access thanks to Google.

We need to focus on getting Wikipedia to the 5.2 billion people who can't
access it.

On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 1:31 PM, Chad <innocentkiller [at] gmail> wrote:

> On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 3:10 PM, Milos Rancic <millosh [at] gmail> wrote:
> > Probably, some of you already saw that Google made something for which
> > I think that it will be the new form of the mainstream Internet
> > perception. You may read Slashdot article [1], a good description at
> > the blog "Google Operating System" [2] (not officially connected with
> > Google) and, of course, you may see the official site with more than
> > one hour of presentation [3].
> >
> > I expected such kind of tool (a client connected with others via P2P
> > XML-based protocol; with servers for identification). However, I
> > didn't expect that i will come so soon, that it will be done by one
> > large corporation and that it will be done at the right way: open
> > protocol, free software referent implementation.
> >
> > At the official site they said that it will start to work during this
> > year. As one large corporation is behind the project, as well as free
> > and open source community is able to participate, I have no doubts
> > that it will be implemented all over the Internet (and not just
> > Internet) very quickly. Probably, in two years the basic component of
> > one modern operating system will not be a Web browser, but a Wave
> > client. Probably, Web will become a storage system, while all of the
> > interaction will be done via Waves.
> >
> > This development of Internet is very strongly related to the Wikimedia
> projects:
> > * I want to be able to edit Wikipedia through the Wave client.
> > * I want to add my own notes to articles, history of articles etc.
> > * I want to have collection of my knowledge at one place, including
> > Wikipedia articles and my notes.
> > * I want to be able to make a program which would analyze articles on
> > Wikipedia and to give program and/or analysis to my friends.
> > * I want many more things to be browsable or editable or whatever from
> > a Wave client...
> >
> > All of those my (but, in one year, not just my) wishes may be
> > fulfilled just through work on MediaWiki and Pywikipediabot. So, I am
> > calling all of you who are willing to think about it or who are at the
> > position to think about it -- to start with thinking :)
> >
> > [1] -
> http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/05/28/1912226/Googles-Wave-Blurs-Chat-Email-Collaboration-Software
> > [2] - http://googlesystem.blogspot.com/2009/05/google-wave.html
> > [3] - http://wave.google.com/
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l [at] lists
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
>
> Very cool. Not sure if I buy into the "this is the future of the
> internet," but very very cool indeed.
>
> -Chad
>
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cohesion at sleepyhead

May 30, 2009, 8:42 PM

Post #53 of 78 (1568 views)
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Re: Google Wave and Wikimedia projects [In reply to]

On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 6:40 PM, Lars Aronsson <lars [at] aronsson> wrote:
> Judson Dunn wrote:
>
>> I can't sell my luddite co-workers on the idea of a blog, or a
>> wiki, but this is more obviously approachable. For more normal
>> web users, there are obviously a lot of advanced uses as well.
>
> Google Wave combines many concepts, such as mail discussion
> threads, Twitter-like short message discussions, instant
> messaging, wiki-like edit history and an animated playback.
> The idea of showing diffs since the user last viewed the same
> wave, is very similar to Flagged revisions.
>
> My guess is that this mix is too advanced for most users and will
> be a hard sell, almost like an automobile with a joystick (like an
> airplane) instead of a steering wheel.

Definitely all of that is too advanced, but I don't think people have
to use all of that. You can very easily think of it as email if you
aren't that tech savvy, but with a few new features that maybe you
don't understand that well. If there is a big voting button in an
email people will understand how that works, even if they don't
understand how the wave extension api works.

I also don't really think this is immediately relevant to wikipedia,
but it's interesting getting other wikipedians views on the topic. I
think we have a lot of experience in collaborative software. :)

Judson
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Cohesion

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cimonavaro at gmail

May 30, 2009, 11:11 PM

Post #54 of 78 (1568 views)
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Re: Google Wave and Wikimedia projects [In reply to]

Thomas Dalton wrote:
> 2009/5/30 Jussi-Ville Heiskanen <cimonavaro [at] gmail>:
>
>> Thomas Dalton wrote:
>>
>>> E-mail, once
>>> it let the military/academia, was a completely new thing, there wasn't
>>> anything like it before (the closest thing was telegrams, which
>>> charged by the word, could take a few hours to reach their destination
>>> and couldn't have attachments).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Not even courier mail?
>>
>
> Courier mail is far far slower than email or telegrams (for long
> distance, at least). I've just watched the first 20 minutes of the
> presentation and there doesn't seem to be anything new, it's just
> combining existing stuff in a fancy way. It's a great app, and I may
> well use it, but it isn't going to change the world. It's part of an
> incremental progression, it's not a paradigm shift.
>
>

For sure. I was just burying the point that telegrams
are not the best comparison. Courier mail did the
thing much slower, but it got the thing done.
Telegrams were for when you needed the
immediacy that E-mail now gives for free.(spam notwithstanding)

Yours,

Jussi-Ville Heiskanen

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gerard.meijssen at gmail

May 30, 2009, 11:18 PM

Post #55 of 78 (1575 views)
Permalink

Re: Google Wave and Wikimedia projects [In reply to]

Hoi,
When you want to consider Wave in combination with Wikipedia, there are a
few "easy" answers to this. The first is that Wave is massively easier to
use. When you combine the existing Wave technology with MediaWiki, you will
improve usability for MediaWiki. When you bring MediaWiki content to Wave,
you integrate knowledge into Wave..

The fact that Wikipedia currently is as dominantly as it is, is only true
for some languages certainly not all languages. When you look at African
languages, Wikipedia is a no show. Wave already has some integration with
mobiles. When we start to think in terms of bringing Wikipedia to the
languages where there are many people and where we are weak, we must do much
better even with our current software platform.

Wave as it is will work as an overlay. It currently supports a few languages
and we support over 300. So when we were to adopt Wave we would face a
challenge. This is however a challenge we are getting better at because of
translatewiki.net.

When you want to focus on the people who do not get the Wikipedia message,
usability is with internationalisation and localisation something we are
starting to address. Wave could be, if it indeed fits our needs as I
suspect, be a shot in the arm on usability.
Thanks,
GerardM

2009/5/31 Brian <Brian.Mingus [at] colorado>

> How does Google Wave help the WMF achieve its goals?
> Wikipedia has already become a dominant information source for the 1.5
> billion people with Internet access thanks to Google.
>
> We need to focus on getting Wikipedia to the 5.2 billion people who can't
> access it.
>
> On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 1:31 PM, Chad <innocentkiller [at] gmail> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 3:10 PM, Milos Rancic <millosh [at] gmail> wrote:
> > > Probably, some of you already saw that Google made something for which
> > > I think that it will be the new form of the mainstream Internet
> > > perception. You may read Slashdot article [1], a good description at
> > > the blog "Google Operating System" [2] (not officially connected with
> > > Google) and, of course, you may see the official site with more than
> > > one hour of presentation [3].
> > >
> > > I expected such kind of tool (a client connected with others via P2P
> > > XML-based protocol; with servers for identification). However, I
> > > didn't expect that i will come so soon, that it will be done by one
> > > large corporation and that it will be done at the right way: open
> > > protocol, free software referent implementation.
> > >
> > > At the official site they said that it will start to work during this
> > > year. As one large corporation is behind the project, as well as free
> > > and open source community is able to participate, I have no doubts
> > > that it will be implemented all over the Internet (and not just
> > > Internet) very quickly. Probably, in two years the basic component of
> > > one modern operating system will not be a Web browser, but a Wave
> > > client. Probably, Web will become a storage system, while all of the
> > > interaction will be done via Waves.
> > >
> > > This development of Internet is very strongly related to the Wikimedia
> > projects:
> > > * I want to be able to edit Wikipedia through the Wave client.
> > > * I want to add my own notes to articles, history of articles etc.
> > > * I want to have collection of my knowledge at one place, including
> > > Wikipedia articles and my notes.
> > > * I want to be able to make a program which would analyze articles on
> > > Wikipedia and to give program and/or analysis to my friends.
> > > * I want many more things to be browsable or editable or whatever from
> > > a Wave client...
> > >
> > > All of those my (but, in one year, not just my) wishes may be
> > > fulfilled just through work on MediaWiki and Pywikipediabot. So, I am
> > > calling all of you who are willing to think about it or who are at the
> > > position to think about it -- to start with thinking :)
> > >
> > > [1] -
> >
> http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/05/28/1912226/Googles-Wave-Blurs-Chat-Email-Collaboration-Software
> > > [2] - http://googlesystem.blogspot.com/2009/05/google-wave.html
> > > [3] - http://wave.google.com/
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > foundation-l mailing list
> > > foundation-l [at] lists
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > >
> >
> > Very cool. Not sure if I buy into the "this is the future of the
> > internet," but very very cool indeed.
> >
> > -Chad
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l [at] lists
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
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thomas.dalton at gmail

May 31, 2009, 5:09 AM

Post #56 of 78 (1567 views)
Permalink

Re: Google Wave and Wikimedia projects [In reply to]

2009/5/31 Jussi-Ville Heiskanen <cimonavaro [at] gmail>:
> For sure. I was just burying the point that telegrams
> are not the best comparison. Courier mail did the
> thing much slower, but it got the thing done.
> Telegrams were for when you needed the
> immediacy that E-mail now gives for free.(spam notwithstanding)

Indeed. My point was that there *isn't* a good comparison. You can
think of it as really fast courier mail, but that doesn't do it
justice. You can think of it as free telegrams with attachments, but
that doesn't do it justice. E-mail really was a whole new concept, it
wasn't just an extension or improvement of existing concepts. Google
Waves are just an improvement on existing concepts - the improvement
being bringing them all together in one app.

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gerard.meijssen at gmail

May 31, 2009, 5:30 AM

Post #57 of 78 (1567 views)
Permalink

Re: Google Wave and Wikimedia projects [In reply to]

Hoi,
Thinking of Google Wave as an application is not doing it justice. In my
opinion the most important part of Wave is its protocol. This is best
appreciated in that Google expects production quality code to go with the
"reference implementation". This reference implementation in turn will be
available to whoever wants it to have an own Wave server.

The point is that by concentrating on the protocol and the associated
reference implementation, wave is more like e-mail and less like outlook or
thunderbird, it is more like a wiki and less like MediaWiki or pbwiki and it
is more like instant messaging and less like IRC or Microsoft Messenger.

You may implement the Wave protocol in any way you like, the beauty of the
accompanying reference implementation is that nobody can hide what the
protocols are to mean. It is not like Microsoft who does not even implement
its own (standard) protocols cleanly in its Office implementation.
Thanks,
GerardM

<grin> thinking of open standards, how about an OpenID implementation to go
with Wave </grin>

2009/5/31 Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton [at] gmail>

> 2009/5/31 Jussi-Ville Heiskanen <cimonavaro [at] gmail>:
> > For sure. I was just burying the point that telegrams
> > are not the best comparison. Courier mail did the
> > thing much slower, but it got the thing done.
> > Telegrams were for when you needed the
> > immediacy that E-mail now gives for free.(spam notwithstanding)
>
> Indeed. My point was that there *isn't* a good comparison. You can
> think of it as really fast courier mail, but that doesn't do it
> justice. You can think of it as free telegrams with attachments, but
> that doesn't do it justice. E-mail really was a whole new concept, it
> wasn't just an extension or improvement of existing concepts. Google
> Waves are just an improvement on existing concepts - the improvement
> being bringing them all together in one app.
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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thomas.dalton at gmail

May 31, 2009, 5:40 AM

Post #58 of 78 (1581 views)
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Re: Google Wave and Wikimedia projects [In reply to]

2009/5/31 Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen [at] gmail>:
> Hoi,
> Thinking of Google Wave as an application is not doing it justice. In my
> opinion the most important part of Wave is its protocol.

You're absolutely right, but I still think it is the fact that all
these things are in one app that is important, but it is equally
important to remember that it doesn't have to be Google's app they are
all in.

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lars at aronsson

Jun 1, 2009, 8:37 AM

Post #59 of 78 (1546 views)
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Re: Google Wave and Wikimedia projects [In reply to]

Thomas Dalton wrote:

> 2009/5/31 Lars Aronsson <lars [at] aronsson>:
> > The idea of showing diffs since the user last viewed the same
> > wave, is very similar to Flagged revisions.
>
> How is it in any way like Flagged revisions?

From the video, the user interface color marked the differences in
the wave since I last looked at it. I thought of this as the diff
since the last flagged (approved) version. It's a collaboratively
edited document with a linear version history (like RCS or wiki),
but with bookmarks (flags) for certain previous versions.

I didn't say it's an equivalent, but some ideas are familiar.

The mention of a "patent license" should make us worried. Does
Google, for example, have a patent on the animated playback?
Should we need a patent for "flagged revisions" to counter that?

--
Lars Aronsson (lars [at] aronsson)
Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se

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thomas.dalton at gmail

Jun 1, 2009, 9:27 AM

Post #60 of 78 (1541 views)
Permalink

Re: Google Wave and Wikimedia projects [In reply to]

2009/6/1 Lars Aronsson <lars [at] aronsson>:
> Thomas Dalton wrote:
>
>> 2009/5/31 Lars Aronsson <lars [at] aronsson>:
>> > The idea of showing diffs since the user last viewed the same
>> > wave, is very similar to Flagged revisions.
>>
>> How is it in any way like Flagged revisions?
>
> From the video, the user interface color marked the differences in
> the wave since I last looked at it. I thought of this as the diff
> since the last flagged (approved) version. It's a collaboratively
> edited document with a linear version history (like RCS or wiki),
> but with bookmarks (flags) for certain previous versions.
>
> I didn't say it's an equivalent, but some ideas are familiar.

I suppose. The key thing with Flagged Revisions, though, is that one
person flags a revision for everyone. Just having a flag on the last
revision you saw isn't really the same thing. It would probably
require a whole new database table to implement, as well. FlaggedRevs
just requires an extra column in an existing table (MediaWiki's
implementation may have more than that, but the basic concept doesn't
require it).

> The mention of a "patent license" should make us worried. Does
> Google, for example, have a patent on the animated playback?
> Should we need a patent for "flagged revisions" to counter that?

We have no intention of defending such a patent, so there is no point
taking one out. It would still qualify as prior art without having
been patented, wouldn't it? Hopefully any relevant patents they do
take out will be released under some kind of free license (I'm not
sure what the point of patenting it would be, in that case, though).

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gerard.meijssen at gmail

Jun 1, 2009, 9:27 AM

Post #61 of 78 (1539 views)
Permalink

Re: Google Wave and Wikimedia projects [In reply to]

Hoi,
Lars PLEASE read the license before you comment.
Thanks,
GerardM

2009/6/1 Lars Aronsson <lars [at] aronsson>

> Thomas Dalton wrote:
>
> > 2009/5/31 Lars Aronsson <lars [at] aronsson>:
> > > The idea of showing diffs since the user last viewed the same
> > > wave, is very similar to Flagged revisions.
> >
> > How is it in any way like Flagged revisions?
>
> From the video, the user interface color marked the differences in
> the wave since I last looked at it. I thought of this as the diff
> since the last flagged (approved) version. It's a collaboratively
> edited document with a linear version history (like RCS or wiki),
> but with bookmarks (flags) for certain previous versions.
>
> I didn't say it's an equivalent, but some ideas are familiar.
>
> The mention of a "patent license" should make us worried. Does
> Google, for example, have a patent on the animated playback?
> Should we need a patent for "flagged revisions" to counter that?
>
>
> --
> Lars Aronsson (lars [at] aronsson)
> Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
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> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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cohesion at sleepyhead

Jun 1, 2009, 2:34 PM

Post #62 of 78 (1532 views)
Permalink

Re: Google Wave and Wikimedia projects [In reply to]

On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 10:37 AM, Lars Aronsson <lars [at] aronsson> wrote:
> The mention of a "patent license" should make us worried. Does
> Google, for example, have a patent on the animated playback?
> Should we need a patent for "flagged revisions" to counter that?
>
>

Their patent license is basically just saying that *if* google has any
patents, you are free to use them, and google will not sue you, so
that other big companies and organizations implement this without
taking forever to worry about google suing them.

http://www.waveprotocol.org/patent-license

"Google and its affiliates hereby grant to you a perpetual, worldwide,
non-exclusive, no-charge, royalty-free, irrevocable (except as stated
in this License) patent license for patents necessarily infringed by
implementation of this specification."

The revocation happens if you sue someone else for patent
infringement, it's really pretty positive, actually.

Judson
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Cohesion

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midom.lists at gmail

Jun 1, 2009, 3:06 PM

Post #63 of 78 (1538 views)
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Re: Google Wave and Wikimedia projects [In reply to]

> "Google and its affiliates hereby grant to you a perpetual, worldwide,
> non-exclusive, no-charge, royalty-free, irrevocable (except as stated
> in this License) patent license for patents necessarily infringed by
> implementation of this specification."

so, if you want to extend the specification, you're not protected by
that? :)

Cheers,
Domas

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gerard.meijssen at gmail

Jun 1, 2009, 3:30 PM

Post #64 of 78 (1533 views)
Permalink

Re: Google Wave and Wikimedia projects [In reply to]

Hoi,
If you want to extend the specification, you can .. BUT you have to provide
working code that integrates with the reference implementation AND you have
to provide this with the same license. This means that all extensions to the
protocol will allow you to use them safely because you will have the
necessary license to do so.
Thanks,
GerardM

2009/6/2 Domas Mituzas <midom.lists [at] gmail>

> > "Google and its affiliates hereby grant to you a perpetual, worldwide,
> > non-exclusive, no-charge, royalty-free, irrevocable (except as stated
> > in this License) patent license for patents necessarily infringed by
> > implementation of this specification."
>
> so, if you want to extend the specification, you're not protected by
> that? :)
>
> Cheers,
> Domas
>
> _______________________________________________
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wikimail at inbox

Jun 2, 2009, 10:35 AM

Post #65 of 78 (1506 views)
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Re: Google Wave and Wikimedia projects [In reply to]

On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 5:34 PM, Judson Dunn <cohesion [at] sleepyhead> wrote:

> The revocation happens if you sue someone else for patent
> infringement, it's really pretty positive, actually.

"(including a cross-claim or counterclaim in a lawsuit)"... Interesting...
What if you have a patent under the same license? Lawsuit deterrence by
mutual assured destruction?
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lars at aronsson

Jun 2, 2009, 12:44 PM

Post #66 of 78 (1496 views)
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Re: Google Wave and Wikimedia projects [In reply to]

Gerard Meijssen wrote:

> Lars PLEASE read the license before you comment.

Of course I have read the short license text at
http://www.waveprotocol.org/patent-license

It says that as long as we follow Google's protocol standard, they
won't sue us for infringing on their patents ("patents necessarily
infringed by implementation of this specification"). Oh, how very
generous. But what if we want to implement some of their features
in MediaWiki without following their protocol? That is where we
should be worried. What exactly is it that they have patented?

--
Lars Aronsson (lars [at] aronsson)
Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se

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millosh at gmail

Jun 2, 2009, 8:39 PM

Post #67 of 78 (1498 views)
Permalink

Re: Google Wave and Wikimedia projects [In reply to]

On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 9:44 PM, Lars Aronsson <lars [at] aronsson> wrote:
> It says that as long as we follow Google's protocol standard, they
> won't sue us for infringing on their patents ("patents necessarily
> infringed by implementation of this specification"). �Oh, how very
> generous. �But what if we want to implement some of their features
> in MediaWiki without following their protocol? �That is where we
> should be worried. �What exactly is it that they have patented?

What if we want to implement any of patented features in MediaWiki?

BTW, I am really skeptical about the idea that one large Internet
company sues Wikimedia or MediaWiki developers for their patents. It
would be a really bad PR for them.

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rarohde at gmail

Jun 2, 2009, 9:14 PM

Post #68 of 78 (1495 views)
Permalink

Re: Google Wave and Wikimedia projects [In reply to]

On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 12:44 PM, Lars Aronsson <lars [at] aronsson> wrote:
> Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>
>> Lars PLEASE read the license before you comment.
>
> Of course I have read the short license text at
> http://www.waveprotocol.org/patent-license
>
> It says that as long as we follow Google's protocol standard, they
> won't sue us for infringing on their patents ("patents necessarily
> infringed by implementation of this specification"). �Oh, how very
> generous. �But what if we want to implement some of their features
> in MediaWiki without following their protocol? �That is where we
> should be worried. �What exactly is it that they have patented?

Assuming Google is intending to be "not evil" about this, I would
guess the point of the intellectual property (e.g. patents and
trademarks) is to prevent people from creating things that are called
and/or identify themselves as Wave servers and yet don't conform to
the communications protocol. And there is a reasonable point there.
Regardless of what features and services a server might offer, it is
still important that the underlying communications protocol be
something that all parties can make sense of, otherwise your network
gets bogged down in gibberish.

Anyway, that's the optimistic interpretation.

-Robert Rohde

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tstarling at wikimedia

Jun 2, 2009, 9:31 PM

Post #69 of 78 (1504 views)
Permalink

Re: Google Wave and Wikimedia projects [In reply to]

Robert Rohde wrote:
> Assuming Google is intending to be "not evil" about this, I would
> guess the point of the intellectual property (e.g. patents and
> trademarks) is to prevent people from creating things that are called
> and/or identify themselves as Wave servers and yet don't conform to
> the communications protocol. And there is a reasonable point there.
> Regardless of what features and services a server might offer, it is
> still important that the underlying communications protocol be
> something that all parties can make sense of, otherwise your network
> gets bogged down in gibberish.
>
> Anyway, that's the optimistic interpretation.

The optimistic interpretation is that it is what is called a
"defensive patent", and that they don't intend to enforce it at all.
The USPTO is notoriously bad at finding related work that doesn't come
up when they search their own patent database, so a defensive patent
can be useful to prevent similar patents being registered by
competitors. It may also be useful to strike down future patents in
court.

Red Hat, for instance, have taken this approach:
https://www.redhat.com/legal/patent_policy.html

Some people have suggested that Wikimedia should register some
defensive patents, although they probably didn't realise how much time
and money is involved in registering and maintaining the things.

-- Tim Starling

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gerard.meijssen at gmail

Jun 2, 2009, 10:21 PM

Post #70 of 78 (1489 views)
Permalink

Re: Google Wave and Wikimedia projects [In reply to]

Hoi,
There are two things to consider;

- when you develop using the Wave protocol the license covers your work
- Wave is based on the Google Web Toolkit

The Google Web Toolkit has a different license, it is licensed under the
Apache license. So again I do not share your opinion that we can not use the
technology involved. I will say that we cannot contribute back. So I think
the uncooperative shoe is on our foot not Google's.
Thanks,
GerardM

http://code.google.com/webtoolkit/makinggwtbetter.html#licensing

2009/6/2 Lars Aronsson <lars [at] aronsson>

> Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>
> > Lars PLEASE read the license before you comment.
>
> Of course I have read the short license text at
> http://www.waveprotocol.org/patent-license
>
> It says that as long as we follow Google's protocol standard, they
> won't sue us for infringing on their patents ("patents necessarily
> infringed by implementation of this specification"). Oh, how very
> generous. But what if we want to implement some of their features
> in MediaWiki without following their protocol? That is where we
> should be worried. What exactly is it that they have patented?
>
>
> --
> Lars Aronsson (lars [at] aronsson)
> Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
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> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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steven.walling at gmail

Jun 2, 2009, 10:22 PM

Post #71 of 78 (1491 views)
Permalink

Re: Google Wave and Wikimedia projects [In reply to]

FYI everyone, I let Frederic at ReadWriteWeb know that there was some
interest from Wikimedians about Wave integration, and he kindly
linked<http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/google_wave_our_first_hands-on_impressions.php>to
a sample of the thread in his post about his impressions after a demo.
The unfortunate side is that his general impression is that it was more like
super enahnced email/IM than wiki.

Steven Walling

On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 9:31 PM, Tim Starling <tstarling [at] wikimedia>wrote:

> Robert Rohde wrote:
> > Assuming Google is intending to be "not evil" about this, I would
> > guess the point of the intellectual property (e.g. patents and
> > trademarks) is to prevent people from creating things that are called
> > and/or identify themselves as Wave servers and yet don't conform to
> > the communications protocol. And there is a reasonable point there.
> > Regardless of what features and services a server might offer, it is
> > still important that the underlying communications protocol be
> > something that all parties can make sense of, otherwise your network
> > gets bogged down in gibberish.
> >
> > Anyway, that's the optimistic interpretation.
>
> The optimistic interpretation is that it is what is called a
> "defensive patent", and that they don't intend to enforce it at all.
> The USPTO is notoriously bad at finding related work that doesn't come
> up when they search their own patent database, so a defensive patent
> can be useful to prevent similar patents being registered by
> competitors. It may also be useful to strike down future patents in
> court.
>
> Red Hat, for instance, have taken this approach:
> https://www.redhat.com/legal/patent_policy.html
>
> Some people have suggested that Wikimedia should register some
> defensive patents, although they probably didn't realise how much time
> and money is involved in registering and maintaining the things.
>
> -- Tim Starling
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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gerard.meijssen at gmail

Jun 2, 2009, 10:40 PM

Post #72 of 78 (1499 views)
Permalink

Re: Google Wave and Wikimedia projects [In reply to]

Hoi,
The good news in this blogentry is that people outside of Google have access
to it. When you read the text at readwriteweb, you will not see the word
wiki once. You read the question what use the history tool will have ...
exactly one of the things that would make a big difference for us. All
things considered, this review is written by someone who seems not to be
involved in the Wiki world.

On a different note, the first code to bring MediaWiki content in a Wave has
been written. We would love to test it. Can someone get us access to the
Wave developer environment???
Thanks,
GerardM

2009/6/3 Steven Walling <steven.walling [at] gmail>

> FYI everyone, I let Frederic at ReadWriteWeb know that there was some
> interest from Wikimedians about Wave integration, and he kindly
> linked<
> http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/google_wave_our_first_hands-on_impressions.php
> >to
> a sample of the thread in his post about his impressions after a demo.
> The unfortunate side is that his general impression is that it was more
> like
> super enahnced email/IM than wiki.
>
> Steven Walling
>
> On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 9:31 PM, Tim Starling <tstarling [at] wikimedia
> >wrote:
>
> > Robert Rohde wrote:
> > > Assuming Google is intending to be "not evil" about this, I would
> > > guess the point of the intellectual property (e.g. patents and
> > > trademarks) is to prevent people from creating things that are called
> > > and/or identify themselves as Wave servers and yet don't conform to
> > > the communications protocol. And there is a reasonable point there.
> > > Regardless of what features and services a server might offer, it is
> > > still important that the underlying communications protocol be
> > > something that all parties can make sense of, otherwise your network
> > > gets bogged down in gibberish.
> > >
> > > Anyway, that's the optimistic interpretation.
> >
> > The optimistic interpretation is that it is what is called a
> > "defensive patent", and that they don't intend to enforce it at all.
> > The USPTO is notoriously bad at finding related work that doesn't come
> > up when they search their own patent database, so a defensive patent
> > can be useful to prevent similar patents being registered by
> > competitors. It may also be useful to strike down future patents in
> > court.
> >
> > Red Hat, for instance, have taken this approach:
> > https://www.redhat.com/legal/patent_policy.html
> >
> > Some people have suggested that Wikimedia should register some
> > defensive patents, although they probably didn't realise how much time
> > and money is involved in registering and maintaining the things.
> >
> > -- Tim Starling
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l [at] lists
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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midom.lists at gmail

Jun 3, 2009, 12:20 AM

Post #73 of 78 (1499 views)
Permalink

Re: Google Wave and Wikimedia projects [In reply to]

Hi,

> On a different note, the first code to bring MediaWiki content in a
> Wave

We should have fun-l@ for conversations like this.

First of all, if any of you who are interested in wave-ization of teh
internet, go join the wave community and push the standard towards
lazy on-demand loading, and ability to roll changes backwards.
Unless. of course, 50000 <waveops> for single wavelet are not
frightening you, and of course more participants will happily enjoy
their every keystroke shown as waveop, ... Maybe google has invented
javascript that doesn't use memory nor CPU cycles. Good then!

Cheers,
Domas

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gerard.meijssen at gmail

Jun 3, 2009, 5:02 AM

Post #74 of 78 (1492 views)
Permalink

Re: Google Wave and Wikimedia projects [In reply to]

Hoi,
I am glad that there is still some work to do.. God forbid that Wave would
be the all singing, all dancing replacement for all other software under the
sun. Now, I am an optimist and I am happy that the first code to bring
MediaWiki content in a Wave, I am glad that my optimism is tempered with the
"realism" of outstanding issues.

So let us be realistic.. Even in Wikipedia you will not have thousands of
people editing *at the same time* in a document. Showing every key stroke is
something that can be suppressed. In my opinion it only makes sense to
follow all changes when it is a document that is on your watch list. You
only want to see what other people are editing when you are editing
yourself.

Domas if I can come up with such answers, when I as an eternal optimist
agree with you that integration of MediaWiki content let alone replacement
of MediaWiki is something else I am sure that it is too easy to ridicule a
first effort. In your reply you mention javascript, is that based on reading
about the "embed" API ?? I think that the relevant protocols are peer to
peer and XML.. Indeed a computer does not have an endless supply of CPU or
memory but your computer talks to your wave server.. and your wave server
talks to wave servers peered in the conversation.. Indeed it sounds like
fun, but I do not want to deprive the foundation-l of all the fun.

In the mean time, can you get us access to the Wave environment? I would
appreciate such a positive gesture :)
Thanks,
GerardM

2009/6/3 Domas Mituzas <midom.lists [at] gmail>

> Hi,
>
> > On a different note, the first code to bring MediaWiki content in a
> > Wave
>
>
> We should have fun-l@ for conversations like this.
>
> First of all, if any of you who are interested in wave-ization of teh
> internet, go join the wave community and push the standard towards
> lazy on-demand loading, and ability to roll changes backwards.
> Unless. of course, 50000 <waveops> for single wavelet are not
> frightening you, and of course more participants will happily enjoy
> their every keystroke shown as waveop, ... Maybe google has invented
> javascript that doesn't use memory nor CPU cycles. Good then!
>
>
> Cheers,
> Domas
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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midom.lists at gmail

Jun 3, 2009, 6:02 AM

Post #75 of 78 (1485 views)
Permalink

Re: Google Wave and Wikimedia projects [In reply to]

Hello,

> So let us be realistic.. Even in Wikipedia you will not have
> thousands of
> people editing *at the same time* in a document.

But documents have tens of thousands of revisions, still.

> In your reply you mention javascript, is that based on reading
> about the "embed" API ??

um, did html5 already get <wave> tag? :-)

> I think that the relevant protocols are peer to
> peer and XML..

XMPP (aka Jabber) with 'operational transformation' streams of events
(read, lots of micro-diffs).

> Indeed a computer does not have an endless supply of CPU or
> memory but your computer talks to your wave server..

And yet, does have to handle all the revision history in javascript. :)

> and your wave server
> talks to wave servers peered in the conversation.. Indeed it sounds
> like
> fun, but I do not want to deprive the foundation-l of all the fun.

*shrug*, "peered", but still you have to maintain central authority
for certain 'waves'.
it isn't magic 'peer to peer cloud' thing. it is just protocol, that
allows federation.

on the other hand, federation doesn't always work well, when you have
to do operations on vast sets of data.

> In the mean time, can you get us access to the Wave environment? I
> would
> appreciate such a positive gesture :)

Unfortunately, your appreciation does not sum up well with the other
wave motivation (which is at around zero at the moment).

Cheers,
Domas

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