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Re: [Wikipedia-l] mo.wikipedia.org when will you stop making joke of us ?

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cetateanumd at gmail

Nov 13, 2008, 11:06 AM

Post #1 of 15 (4690 views)
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Re: [Wikipedia-l] mo.wikipedia.org when will you stop making joke of us ?

> The argument for this project is that in Transnistria
> there are people who still use Cyrillic to write their language.

Then please rename mo. to another thing, MO means MOLDOVAN, and in MOLDOVA
we write OUR language with LATIN letters.

I don't really care what the transnistrian(russian) separatist criminals are
doing there.

All I want is to NOT name the CYRILLIC garbage with OUR NAME !

> there are people who still use Cyrillic to write their language. For your
> information, ISO has recently decided that Moldovan is no longer
considered
> to be a separate language, it is considered to be Romanian.

That's good, the only thing I don't understand why mo.wikipedia.org is still
here.

Make the transnistrian language in whatever scripting you want and keep it
for transnistrian(russian) separatists.
But please leave alone our language name, (I repeat) it's with latin
letters.

On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 10:23 PM, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen [at] gmail
> wrote:

> Hoi,
> The Moldovan Wikipedia is indeed in Cyrillic. This project has been locked
> after a big fight. The argument for this project is that in Transnistria
> there are people who still use Cyrillic to write their language. For your
> information, ISO has recently decided that Moldovan is no longer considered
> to be a separate language, it is considered to be Romanian.
> Thanks,
> GerardM
>
> On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 10:10 PM, Cetateanu Moldovanu <
> cetateanumd [at] gmail
> > wrote:
>
> > Hi, I'm a citizen of Republic of Moldova and I want to inform you
> > that in our country everyone is writing Moldovan language with latin
> > letters.
> >
> > When we were under soviet union occupation, they tryed to russificate us
> > and forced to have our language written with cyrilic.
> >
> > In 1991, after getting the freedom to choose, we choose our language to
> be
> > written with latin letters, as we did before russians conquest us
> (without
> > ask the people) and divided from Romania (our mother land).
> >
> > Thereby, as a free moldovan speaking man, I'm asking you to remove
> > mo.wikipedia.org (witch is in cyrillic and is very offensive for us) and
> > respect our choice as a independent nation or to make it with latin
> > letters.
> >
> > Thank you.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l [at] lists
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
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en.wp.st47 at gmail

Nov 13, 2008, 11:23 AM

Post #2 of 15 (4527 views)
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Re: [Wikipedia-l] mo.wikipedia.org when will you stop making joke of us ? [In reply to]

On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 2:06 PM, Cetateanu Moldovanu
<cetateanumd [at] gmail> wrote:
>> The argument for this project is that in Transnistria
>> there are people who still use Cyrillic to write their language.
>
> Then please rename mo. to another thing, MO means MOLDOVAN, and in MOLDOVA
> we write OUR language with LATIN letters.
>
> I don't really care what the transnistrian(russian) separatist criminals are
> doing there.
>
> All I want is to NOT name the CYRILLIC garbage with OUR NAME !
>
>> there are people who still use Cyrillic to write their language. For your
>> information, ISO has recently decided that Moldovan is no longer
> considered
>> to be a separate language, it is considered to be Romanian.
>
> That's good, the only thing I don't understand why mo.wikipedia.org is still
> here.
>
> Make the transnistrian language in whatever scripting you want and keep it
> for transnistrian(russian) separatists.
> But please leave alone our language name, (I repeat) it's with latin
> letters.
>
> On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 10:23 PM, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen [at] gmail
>> wrote:
>
>> Hoi,
>> The Moldovan Wikipedia is indeed in Cyrillic. This project has been locked
>> after a big fight. The argument for this project is that in Transnistria
>> there are people who still use Cyrillic to write their language. For your
>> information, ISO has recently decided that Moldovan is no longer considered
>> to be a separate language, it is considered to be Romanian.
>> Thanks,
>> GerardM
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 10:10 PM, Cetateanu Moldovanu <
>> cetateanumd [at] gmail
>> > wrote:
>>
>> > Hi, I'm a citizen of Republic of Moldova and I want to inform you
>> > that in our country everyone is writing Moldovan language with latin
>> > letters.
>> >
>> > When we were under soviet union occupation, they tryed to russificate us
>> > and forced to have our language written with cyrilic.
>> >
>> > In 1991, after getting the freedom to choose, we choose our language to
>> be
>> > written with latin letters, as we did before russians conquest us
>> (without
>> > ask the people) and divided from Romania (our mother land).
>> >
>> > Thereby, as a free moldovan speaking man, I'm asking you to remove
>> > mo.wikipedia.org (witch is in cyrillic and is very offensive for us) and
>> > respect our choice as a independent nation or to make it with latin
>> > letters.
>> >
>> > Thank you.
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
>> > Wikipedia-l [at] lists
>> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikipedia-l mailing list
>> Wikipedia-l [at] lists
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>>
> _______________________________________________
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> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

How can people manage to be this grumpy about something this petty.
Suggesting that a country is full of criminals simply because they use
a different writing system is disgusting trolling, and has no place on
this mailing list.

--
DCollins/ST47

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geniice at gmail

Nov 13, 2008, 11:42 AM

Post #3 of 15 (4500 views)
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Re: [Wikipedia-l] mo.wikipedia.org when will you stop making joke of us ? [In reply to]

2008/11/13 Dan Collins <en.wp.st47 [at] gmail>:
> How can people manage to be this grumpy about something this petty.
> Suggesting that a country is full of criminals simply because they use
> a different writing system is disgusting trolling, and has no place on
> this mailing list.
>
> --
> DCollins/ST47

It isn't as petty as it may appear and it is understandable that
people would be somewhat vexed.

Transnistria is not widely considered to be a country for a number of
reasons. The written language is a Russian invention which I
understand was part of a program to rework Moldavia's cultural
identity. It is understandable that residents of Moldova would object
to it being called Moldovan.

Now you might think that since it is only used in Transnistria (there
may be a little use in Moldova among certain age groups but I've seen
no evidence of this) we could call it Transnistrian however this would
clash with the geopolitical objectives of a number of countries such
as say the United States of America.

To a large extent we can ignore the issue since at the present time we
are yet to encounter a native Cyrillic Moldovan writer. But this is
not a long term solution and moveing the thing to cy-mo is likely to
cause further issues.

While eastern european nationalism may seem somewhat petty to those of
us who live in countries where out national identity has not been
significantly threatened of late that does not mean that we should
underestimate it's significance to those who display it.

--
geni

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smolensk at eunet

Nov 13, 2008, 12:11 PM

Post #4 of 15 (4497 views)
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Re: [Wikipedia-l] mo.wikipedia.org when will you stop making joke of us ? [In reply to]

On Thursday 13 November 2008 20:06:06 Cetateanu Moldovanu wrote:
> All I want is to NOT name the CYRILLIC garbage with OUR NAME !

Ај обџект то јур колинг сирилик "гарбиџ", анд ај вуд лајк ан аполоџи.
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thomas.dalton at gmail

Nov 13, 2008, 12:27 PM

Post #5 of 15 (4479 views)
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Re: [Wikipedia-l] mo.wikipedia.org when will you stop making joke of us ? [In reply to]

2008/11/13 Nikola Smolenski <smolensk [at] eunet>:
> On Thursday 13 November 2008 20:06:06 Cetateanu Moldovanu wrote:
>> All I want is to NOT name the CYRILLIC garbage with OUR NAME !
>
> Ај обџект то јур колинг сирилик "гарбиџ", анд ај вуд лајк ан аполоџи.

While this is an international mailing list, it would be polite to
provide translations when replying to something in a language other
than that which the conversation has previously been in. I think I
have a rough idea what you're saying based on Google's attempts to
translate it assuming it's Serbian (it recognises it as Macedonian and
can't translate it), and think you may be misinterpreting the comment
you are replying to.
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cetateanumd at gmail

Nov 13, 2008, 1:13 PM

Post #6 of 15 (4481 views)
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Re: [Wikipedia-l] mo.wikipedia.org when will you stop making joke of us ? [In reply to]

I want to inform you that Transitria is ruled by russian army(
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria#Russian_military_presence_in_Transnistria)
and it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria#Moldovan_schools "insist
that public education for ethnic Moldovans in their mother tongue is done
using the Soviet-originated Moldovan Cyrillic alphabet" "having restricted
the usage of the Latin script
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_script>(the norm) for the Romanian
language <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_language> to only 6
schools."

>Ај обџект то јур колинг сирилик "гарбиџ", анд ај вуд лајк ан аполоџи.
I'm sorry If I offended you, I just have some strong feelings about
russification politics soviet union done to our people, and we feel a great
deal of pain each time we see under "Moldovan" name cyrillic letters..
(wikipedia is the only place like this, they are like promoting this..)

By leaving mo. domain like this you continue to support and agree to "soviet
union" politics they did to us(russification, cultural changes,
discrimination)..
Really very painful to see this still going until the present days..

I wrote on meta wikimedia, hopefully we will obtain the justice.

On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 9:27 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton [at] gmail>wrote:

> 2008/11/13 Nikola Smolenski <smolensk [at] eunet>:
> > On Thursday 13 November 2008 20:06:06 Cetateanu Moldovanu wrote:
> >> All I want is to NOT name the CYRILLIC garbage with OUR NAME !
> >
> > Ај обџект то јур колинг сирилик "гарбиџ", анд ај вуд лајк ан аполоџи.
>
> While this is an international mailing list, it would be polite to
> provide translations when replying to something in a language other
> than that which the conversation has previously been in. I think I
> have a rough idea what you're saying based on Google's attempts to
> translate it assuming it's Serbian (it recognises it as Macedonian and
> can't translate it), and think you may be misinterpreting the comment
> you are replying to.
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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en.wp.st47 at gmail

Nov 13, 2008, 1:47 PM

Post #7 of 15 (4490 views)
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Re: [Wikipedia-l] mo.wikipedia.org when will you stop making joke of us ? [In reply to]

On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 4:13 PM, Cetateanu Moldovanu
<cetateanumd [at] gmail> wrote:
> By leaving mo. domain like this you continue to support and agree to "soviet
> union" politics they did to us(russification, cultural changes,
> discrimination)..
> Really very painful to see this still going until the present days..

Really? By hosting a wiki in moldovan that uses the same language, but
a different writing style than you happen to prefer, we're supporting
russia? What evil communists we are! We should be drawn and quartered.
Why are we allowed to live? Quick, sue us! Clamp us in irons!

Yes, such idiocy from people who actually believe that is painful.

--
DCollins/ST47
Administrator, en.wikipedia.org
Channel Operator, irc.freenode.net/#wikipedia
Maintainer, Perlwikipedia module

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dgerard at gmail

Nov 13, 2008, 1:54 PM

Post #8 of 15 (4504 views)
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Re: [Wikipedia-l] mo.wikipedia.org when will you stop making joke of us ? [In reply to]

2008/11/13 Cetateanu Moldovanu <cetateanumd [at] gmail>:

>>Ај обџект то јур колинг сирилик "гарбиџ", анд ај вуд лајк ан аполоџи.
> I'm sorry If I offended you, I just have some strong feelings about
> russification politics soviet union done to our people, and we feel a great
> deal of pain each time we see under "Moldovan" name cyrillic letters..
> (wikipedia is the only place like this, they are like promoting this..)

Cyrillic letters are inherently offensive? You'll get a long way here.

> I wrote on meta wikimedia, hopefully we will obtain the justice.

Let me know how that works out for you.

- d.
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cetateanumd at gmail

Nov 13, 2008, 2:09 PM

Post #9 of 15 (4487 views)
Permalink

Re: [Wikipedia-l] mo.wikipedia.org when will you stop making joke of us ? [In reply to]

It's the same as having american language in cyrillic and somebody saying
that's nothing. American language is the same thing as english.
Exactly the same thing is Moldovan language, it is the same as Romanian and
mo. should not exist.

On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 10:54 PM, David Gerard <dgerard [at] gmail> wrote:

> 2008/11/13 Cetateanu Moldovanu <cetateanumd [at] gmail>:
>
> >>Ај обџект то јур колинг сирилик "гарбиџ", анд ај вуд лајк ан аполоџи.
> > I'm sorry If I offended you, I just have some strong feelings about
> > russification politics soviet union done to our people, and we feel a
> great
> > deal of pain each time we see under "Moldovan" name cyrillic letters..
> > (wikipedia is the only place like this, they are like promoting this..)
>
>
> Cyrillic letters are inherently offensive? You'll get a long way here.
>
>
> > I wrote on meta wikimedia, hopefully we will obtain the justice.
>
>
> Let me know how that works out for you.
>
>
> - d.
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
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> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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swatjester at gmail

Nov 13, 2008, 2:17 PM

Post #10 of 15 (4483 views)
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Re: [Wikipedia-l] mo.wikipedia.org when will you stop making joke of us ? [In reply to]

Erm, it's not in another language. Nikola wrote an english phrase,
using the cyrillic alphabet.

"I object to your calling cyrillic "garbage" and I would like an
apology".
Ај обџект то јур колинг сирилик
"гарбиџ", анд ај вуд лајк ан аполоџи.

-Dan
On Nov 13, 2008, at 3:27 PM, Thomas Dalton wrote:

> 2008/11/13 Nikola Smolenski <smolensk [at] eunet>:
>> On Thursday 13 November 2008 20:06:06 Cetateanu Moldovanu wrote:
>>> All I want is to NOT name the CYRILLIC garbage with OUR NAME !
>>
>> Ај обџект то јур колинг сирилик
>> "гарбиџ", анд ај вуд лајк ан аполоџи.
>
> While this is an international mailing list, it would be polite to
> provide translations when replying to something in a language other
> than that which the conversation has previously been in. I think I
> have a rough idea what you're saying based on Google's attempts to
> translate it assuming it's Serbian (it recognises it as Macedonian and
> can't translate it), and think you may be misinterpreting the comment
> you are replying to.
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

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geniice at gmail

Nov 13, 2008, 2:17 PM

Post #11 of 15 (4478 views)
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Re: [Wikipedia-l] mo.wikipedia.org when will you stop making joke of us ? [In reply to]

2008/11/13 Dan Collins <en.wp.st47 [at] gmail>:
> Really? By hosting a wiki in moldovan that uses the same language, but
> a different writing style than you happen to prefer, we're supporting
> russia? What evil communists we are! We should be drawn and quartered.
> Why are we allowed to live? Quick, sue us! Clamp us in irons!
>
> Yes, such idiocy from people who actually believe that is painful.
>

Sigh. I understand that eastern European conflicts are likely a closed
book to you. Perhaps fortunate since otherwise we would have had a
hard time pretending they didn't exist for the last decade or so.

Still there are a number of things that should be considered. There
isn't really any such language as Moldovan. At most it is a dialect of
Romanian. This is largely uncontroversial in the west but Russia spent
about 50 years trying to claim otherwise.

The alphabet used to write it is a deeply political and nationalist
act. Romanian is written in the Latin script and thus that was the
scrip used in Moldova prior to soviet occupation. As part of soviet
policy during the cold war an attempt was made to de-Romanianise
Moldova and enforce a new national identity on Moldova. While there
were various expressions of this the Cyrillic is perhaps one of the
most obvious.

Anyway as you may know the soviet union feel and the newly independent
nations emerged understandably looking to throw off their soviet past.
As part of that there was a general rejection of the soviet
manufactured Moldovian national identity. This includes the use of
Cyrillic text which is now not used outside the breakaway region of
Transnistria.

The upshot of this is that describing by cyrillic Romanian as
Moldavian you are effectively supporting the otherwise discredited
soviet version of the Moldavian national identity. Given the
conditions under which this was enforced it is understandable that
people might be a little upset.

--
geni

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Platonides at gmail

Nov 13, 2008, 2:43 PM

Post #12 of 15 (4477 views)
Permalink

Re: [Wikipedia-l] mo.wikipedia.org when will you stop making joke of us ? [In reply to]

Dan Collins wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 4:13 PM, Cetateanu Moldovanu
> <cetateanumd [at] gmail> wrote:
>> By leaving mo. domain like this you continue to support and agree to "soviet
>> union" politics they did to us(russification, cultural changes,
>> discrimination)..
>> Really very painful to see this still going until the present days..
>
> Really? By hosting a wiki in moldovan that uses the same language, but
> a different writing style than you happen to prefer, we're supporting
> russia? What evil communists we are! We should be drawn and quartered.
> Why are we allowed to live? Quick, sue us! Clamp us in irons!

Is Moldovan Cyrillic transliterable to Latin? Then a transliteration
module could be used. A closed wiki readable on both scripts wouldn't be
too troublesome.
OTOH the work needed to make the transliteration module is likely excessive.

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node.ue at gmail

Nov 13, 2008, 3:24 PM

Post #13 of 15 (4483 views)
Permalink

Re: [Wikipedia-l] mo.wikipedia.org when will you stop making joke of us ? [In reply to]

It would be quite simple. Theoretically, it could be a tab at
ro.wiki.......... but politically that seems unlikely to garner
approval from ro.wikipedians.

Mark

2008/11/13 Platonides <Platonides [at] gmail>:
> Dan Collins wrote:
>> On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 4:13 PM, Cetateanu Moldovanu
>> <cetateanumd [at] gmail> wrote:
>>> By leaving mo. domain like this you continue to support and agree to "soviet
>>> union" politics they did to us(russification, cultural changes,
>>> discrimination)..
>>> Really very painful to see this still going until the present days..
>>
>> Really? By hosting a wiki in moldovan that uses the same language, but
>> a different writing style than you happen to prefer, we're supporting
>> russia? What evil communists we are! We should be drawn and quartered.
>> Why are we allowed to live? Quick, sue us! Clamp us in irons!
>
> Is Moldovan Cyrillic transliterable to Latin? Then a transliteration
> module could be used. A closed wiki readable on both scripts wouldn't be
> too troublesome.
> OTOH the work needed to make the transliteration module is likely excessive.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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chiesa.marco at gmail

Nov 14, 2008, 12:57 AM

Post #14 of 15 (4466 views)
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Re: [Wikipedia-l] mo.wikipedia.org when will you stop making joke of us ? [In reply to]

On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 11:43 PM, Platonides <Platonides [at] gmail> wrote:

>
> Is Moldovan Cyrillic transliterable to Latin? Then a transliteration
> module could be used. A closed wiki readable on both scripts wouldn't be
> too troublesome.
> OTOH the work needed to make the transliteration module is likely
> excessive.
>

Just to point out: the archives of wikipedia-l are full of endless
discussions about mo.wiki, the alphabet it uses and so on. So, nothing new

Cruccone
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millosh at gmail

Nov 14, 2008, 1:56 AM

Post #15 of 15 (4468 views)
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Re: [Wikipedia-l] mo.wikipedia.org when will you stop making joke of us ? [In reply to]

On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 8:42 PM, geni <geniice [at] gmail> wrote:
> 2008/11/13 Dan Collins <en.wp.st47 [at] gmail>:
>> How can people manage to be this grumpy about something this petty.
>> Suggesting that a country is full of criminals simply because they use
>> a different writing system is disgusting trolling, and has no place on
>> this mailing list.
>>
>> --
>> DCollins/ST47
>
> It isn't as petty as it may appear and it is understandable that
> people would be somewhat vexed.
>
> Transnistria is not widely considered to be a country for a number of
> reasons. The written language is a Russian invention which I
> understand was part of a program to rework Moldavia's cultural
> identity. It is understandable that residents of Moldova would object
> to it being called Moldovan.
>
> Now you might think that since it is only used in Transnistria (there
> may be a little use in Moldova among certain age groups but I've seen
> no evidence of this) we could call it Transnistrian however this would
> clash with the geopolitical objectives of a number of countries such
> as say the United States of America.
>
> To a large extent we can ignore the issue since at the present time we
> are yet to encounter a native Cyrillic Moldovan writer. But this is
> not a long term solution and moveing the thing to cy-mo is likely to
> cause further issues.
>
> While eastern european nationalism may seem somewhat petty to those of
> us who live in countries where out national identity has not been
> significantly threatened of late that does not mean that we should
> underestimate it's significance to those who display it.

I am sure that others may find other examples, but here are my two:

* Serbs and Croats object on usage "Bosnian" as the name of language
which is used by Bosniaks. The reason is that Serbs and Croats from
Bosnia are also Bosnians (while not Bosniaks).
* Greeks object on usage "Macedonia(n)" for Slavic nation located at
the part of Ancient Macedon (and their language). The reason is that
they feel that they are descendants of Ancient Macedonians.

I think that no one has monopoly on words. So, if there are some
disambiguations, they should be described and articles about different
languages (or other entities) with the same name should be named by
using parentheses, like "Moldovan (Transitria)".

However, it is true that Moldovan case is more complex because we
don't have good enough informations even from Moldova, not to talk
about Transnitria.

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