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Knol: on the bright side of things...

 

 

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Anthere9 at yahoo

Jul 29, 2008, 5:43 AM

Post #1 of 18 (3092 views)
Permalink
Knol: on the bright side of things...

Knol allow us to track massive copyright violations.


Example:
http://knol.google.com/k/knol/system/knol/pages/Search?nodeId=32qv6k5e4j8yx.0#

This author copied a collection of french speaking wikipedia articles.
All are taggued cc by 3.0.

Now, if you go to this one for example:
http://knol.google.com/k/maxime-seligman/thalassothrapie/32qv6k5e4j8yx/13#

On the right hand side, you'll see

Similar Content on the Web

spa.fr 100%
distanteyes.net 100%
wikipedia.org 100%

So, I clicked on distanteyes...
http://distanteyes.net/la-thalassotherapie.html?00ae24bc0e7eeb85a75e1e95743234ab=5915bde6e3eed210f82d1ea04d09e61c

100% copied from Wikipedia. No licence, no mention of Wikipedia, no link.

And I clicked on spa.fr
http://www.spa.fr/la%20balneotherapie%20et%20la%20thalassotherapie.php
Copyright © 2007 La maison du spa


Ant


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dgoodmanny at gmail

Jul 29, 2008, 5:53 AM

Post #2 of 18 (3031 views)
Permalink
Re: Knol: on the bright side of things... [In reply to]

I am going to suggest the heretical proposition that we have
everything to gain by changing our licensing so export to them under
their present policies (or some attainable modification of them) is
interpreted as being within our license, even if it allows the
creation of unfree derivatives, and accepts a link to a Wikipedia
article as adequate author designation for previously contributed
content. (I am aware of the difficulties in making the transition)

The principle I suggest is that the increase in freely accessible
content is more important that the principle of libre
publication--that we are more likely to add to the existing structure
of publication in the world than to replace it.

On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 8:43 AM, Florence Devouard <Anthere9[at]yahoo.com> wrote:
> Knol allow us to track massive copyright violations.
>
>
> Example:
> http://knol.google.com/k/knol/system/knol/pages/Search?nodeId=32qv6k5e4j8yx.0#
>
> This author copied a collection of french speaking wikipedia articles.
> All are taggued cc by 3.0.
>
> Now, if you go to this one for example:
> http://knol.google.com/k/maxime-seligman/thalassothrapie/32qv6k5e4j8yx/13#
>
> On the right hand side, you'll see
>
> Similar Content on the Web
>
> spa.fr 100%
> distanteyes.net 100%
> wikipedia.org 100%
>
> So, I clicked on distanteyes...
> http://distanteyes.net/la-thalassotherapie.html?00ae24bc0e7eeb85a75e1e95743234ab=5915bde6e3eed210f82d1ea04d09e61c
>
> 100% copied from Wikipedia. No licence, no mention of Wikipedia, no link.
>
> And I clicked on spa.fr
> http://www.spa.fr/la%20balneotherapie%20et%20la%20thalassotherapie.php
> Copyright (c) 2007 La maison du spa
>
>
> Ant
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l[at]lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>



--
David Goodman, Ph.D, M.L.S.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DGG

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Anthere9 at yahoo

Jul 29, 2008, 6:41 AM

Post #3 of 18 (3017 views)
Permalink
Re: Knol: on the bright side of things... [In reply to]

I agree, you are an heretic.

Can someone bring in the oil and the feathers ?

Ant

David Goodman wrote:
> I am going to suggest the heretical proposition that we have
> everything to gain by changing our licensing so export to them under
> their present policies (or some attainable modification of them) is
> interpreted as being within our license, even if it allows the
> creation of unfree derivatives, and accepts a link to a Wikipedia
> article as adequate author designation for previously contributed
> content. (I am aware of the difficulties in making the transition)
>
> The principle I suggest is that the increase in freely accessible
> content is more important that the principle of libre
> publication--that we are more likely to add to the existing structure
> of publication in the world than to replace it.
>
> On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 8:43 AM, Florence Devouard <Anthere9[at]yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Knol allow us to track massive copyright violations.
>>
>>
>> Example:
>> http://knol.google.com/k/knol/system/knol/pages/Search?nodeId=32qv6k5e4j8yx.0#
>>
>> This author copied a collection of french speaking wikipedia articles.
>> All are taggued cc by 3.0.
>>
>> Now, if you go to this one for example:
>> http://knol.google.com/k/maxime-seligman/thalassothrapie/32qv6k5e4j8yx/13#
>>
>> On the right hand side, you'll see
>>
>> Similar Content on the Web
>>
>> spa.fr 100%
>> distanteyes.net 100%
>> wikipedia.org 100%
>>
>> So, I clicked on distanteyes...
>> http://distanteyes.net/la-thalassotherapie.html?00ae24bc0e7eeb85a75e1e95743234ab=5915bde6e3eed210f82d1ea04d09e61c
>>
>> 100% copied from Wikipedia. No licence, no mention of Wikipedia, no link.
>>
>> And I clicked on spa.fr
>> http://www.spa.fr/la%20balneotherapie%20et%20la%20thalassotherapie.php
>> Copyright (c) 2007 La maison du spa
>>
>>
>> Ant
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> foundation-l[at]lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
>
>
>


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andrew.lih at gmail

Jul 29, 2008, 7:14 AM

Post #4 of 18 (3022 views)
Permalink
Re: Knol: on the bright side of things... [In reply to]

On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 8:53 PM, David Goodman <dgoodmanny[at]gmail.com> wrote:
> I am going to suggest the heretical proposition that we have
> everything to gain by changing our licensing so export to them under
> their present policies (or some attainable modification of them) is
> interpreted as being within our license, even if it allows the
> creation of unfree derivatives, and accepts a link to a Wikipedia
> article as adequate author designation for previously contributed
> content. (I am aware of the difficulties in making the transition)
>
> The principle I suggest is that the increase in freely accessible
> content is more important that the principle of libre
> publication--that we are more likely to add to the existing structure
> of publication in the world than to replace it.

Even if your proposal were popular (and given the history of previous
dicussions of this type in this forum, it is likely highly
unpopular...) is it even worth discussing given that you would have to
go back and request all previous authors of Wikipedia articles to
re-release their edits under a new license? It's not just "difficult"
but approaching impossible.

-Andrew (User:Fuzheado)

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meta.sj at gmail

Jul 29, 2008, 12:39 PM

Post #5 of 18 (3016 views)
Permalink
Re: Knol: on the bright side of things... [In reply to]

Yes, that's crazy talk. Utterly mad.

Allowing unfree derivatives sounds dangerously close to the "public domain"
the anarchists like to talk about. <looks for a tar-pot>

SJ


On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 9:41 AM, Florence Devouard <Anthere9[at]yahoo.com>wrote:

> I agree, you are an heretic.
>
> Can someone bring in the oil and the feathers ?
>
> Ant
>
> David Goodman wrote:
> > I am going to suggest the heretical proposition that we have
> > everything to gain by changing our licensing so export to them under
> > their present policies (or some attainable modification of them) is
> > interpreted as being within our license, even if it allows the
> > creation of unfree derivatives, and accepts a link to a Wikipedia
> > article as adequate author designation for previously contributed
> > content. (I am aware of the difficulties in making the transition)
> >
> > The principle I suggest is that the increase in freely accessible
> > content is more important that the principle of libre
> > publication--that we are more likely to add to the existing structure
> > of publication in the world than to replace it.
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 8:43 AM, Florence Devouard <Anthere9[at]yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> >> Knol allow us to track massive copyright violations.
> >>
> >>
> >> Example:
> >>
> http://knol.google.com/k/knol/system/knol/pages/Search?nodeId=32qv6k5e4j8yx.0#
> >>
> >> This author copied a collection of french speaking wikipedia articles.
> >> All are taggued cc by 3.0.
> >>
> >> Now, if you go to this one for example:
> >>
> http://knol.google.com/k/maxime-seligman/thalassothrapie/32qv6k5e4j8yx/13#
> >>
> >> On the right hand side, you'll see
> >>
> >> Similar Content on the Web
> >>
> >> spa.fr 100%
> >> distanteyes.net 100%
> >> wikipedia.org 100%
> >>
> >> So, I clicked on distanteyes...
> >>
> http://distanteyes.net/la-thalassotherapie.html?00ae24bc0e7eeb85a75e1e95743234ab=5915bde6e3eed210f82d1ea04d09e61c
> >>
> >> 100% copied from Wikipedia. No licence, no mention of Wikipedia, no
> link.
> >>
> >> And I clicked on spa.fr
> >> http://www.spa.fr/la%20balneotherapie%20et%20la%20thalassotherapie.php
> >> Copyright (c) 2007 La maison du spa
> >>
> >>
> >> Ant
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> foundation-l mailing list
> >> foundation-l[at]lists.wikimedia.org
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> foundation-l[at]lists.wikimedia.org
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>
>
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geniice at gmail

Jul 29, 2008, 12:48 PM

Post #6 of 18 (3025 views)
Permalink
Re: Knol: on the bright side of things... [In reply to]

2008/7/29 Samuel Klein <meta.sj[at]gmail.com>:
> Yes, that's crazy talk. Utterly mad.
>
> Allowing unfree derivatives sounds dangerously close to the "public domain"
> the anarchists like to talk about. <looks for a tar-pot>
>
> SJ


Anarchists reject copyright law entirely. No for the issues allowing
unfree derivs can cause see Wine.

--
geni

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george.herbert at gmail

Jul 29, 2008, 1:04 PM

Post #7 of 18 (3014 views)
Permalink
Re: Knol: on the bright side of things... [In reply to]

On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 7:14 AM, Andrew Lih <andrew.lih[at]gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 8:53 PM, David Goodman <dgoodmanny[at]gmail.com> wrote:
>> I am going to suggest the heretical proposition that we have
>> everything to gain by changing our licensing so export to them under
>> their present policies (or some attainable modification of them) is
>> interpreted as being within our license, even if it allows the
>> creation of unfree derivatives, and accepts a link to a Wikipedia
>> article as adequate author designation for previously contributed
>> content. (I am aware of the difficulties in making the transition)
>>
>> The principle I suggest is that the increase in freely accessible
>> content is more important that the principle of libre
>> publication--that we are more likely to add to the existing structure
>> of publication in the world than to replace it.
>
> Even if your proposal were popular (and given the history of previous
> dicussions of this type in this forum, it is likely highly
> unpopular...) is it even worth discussing given that you would have to
> go back and request all previous authors of Wikipedia articles to
> re-release their edits under a new license? It's not just "difficult"
> but approaching impossible.
>
> -Andrew (User:Fuzheado)

Some of us dual-license under GFDL and CC-BY anyways.

That doesn't help with anyone else's contributions to WP articles, but
any of mine could be imported to Knol as-is with credit given. And
I'm not the only one.


--
-george william herbert
george.herbert[at]gmail.com

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thomas.dalton at gmail

Jul 29, 2008, 1:08 PM

Post #8 of 18 (3010 views)
Permalink
Re: Knol: on the bright side of things... [In reply to]

> (I am aware of the difficulties in making the transition)

It's not difficult, it's impossible. There is work going on to try and
make GFDL compatible with CC-BY-SA, that's the best we can hope for.

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george.herbert at gmail

Jul 29, 2008, 1:16 PM

Post #9 of 18 (3025 views)
Permalink
Re: Knol: on the bright side of things... [In reply to]

On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 1:08 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton[at]gmail.com> wrote:
>> (I am aware of the difficulties in making the transition)
>
> It's not difficult, it's impossible. There is work going on to try and
> make GFDL compatible with CC-BY-SA, that's the best we can hope for.

The best we could hope for is a huge shift from SA-like license
preference to merely BY-like license preference among the community.
Highly unlikely.

Perfectly acceptable would be a community effort by people who accept
BY-like licenses to rewrite stuff from WP and our sources into Knol,
under BY.

The question is whether that's worth it...


--
-george william herbert
george.herbert[at]gmail.com

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thomas.dalton at gmail

Jul 29, 2008, 1:23 PM

Post #10 of 18 (3012 views)
Permalink
Re: Knol: on the bright side of things... [In reply to]

> The best we could hope for is a huge shift from SA-like license
> preference to merely BY-like license preference among the community.
> Highly unlikely.

Not just the community, everyone that has ever edited a Wikipedia article.

> Perfectly acceptable would be a community effort by people who accept
> BY-like licenses to rewrite stuff from WP and our sources into Knol,
> under BY.
>
> The question is whether that's worth it...

We could move small amounts across by persuading everyone that's
edited a particular article to dual license their contributions to it
under CC-BY and agree to give Google the more extensive rights, which
is achievable for some articles (some small amounts could be
rewritten, as you say). I don't see the point though. Why is having
them on Knol a good thing when they're already on Wikipedia (it's not
a bad thing, certainly, but I don't see that it's a good one)?

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m.lincetto at gmail

Jul 30, 2008, 12:47 AM

Post #11 of 18 (2998 views)
Permalink
Re: Knol: on the bright side of things... [In reply to]

I still don't understand why we should reject the copyleft philosophy and
change to an attribution license. I think that our mission is not only to
provide free information and knowledge, but also to be sure that it will be
kept free.
I don't think that we should change our licensing policies in order to be
published on Google Knol: why we should do it? If Knols wants to allow its
users to publish Wikipedia-derivative content they should change their
terms, IMHO.

Massimiliano
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valdelli at gmail

Jul 30, 2008, 1:11 AM

Post #12 of 18 (2999 views)
Permalink
Re: Knol: on the bright side of things... [In reply to]

I fully agree and we *must* understand that any article is a collaborative work.

If one editor doesn't license it's contribution in CC-BY the whole
article cannot be licensed in CC-BY.

And what about IP contributions? Can the CC-BY be assigned to an IP?

Ilario

On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 9:47 AM, Massimiliano <m.lincetto[at]gmail.com> wrote:
> I still don't understand why we should reject the copyleft philosophy and
> change to an attribution license. I think that our mission is not only to
> provide free information and knowledge, but also to be sure that it will be
> kept free.
> I don't think that we should change our licensing policies in order to be
> published on Google Knol: why we should do it? If Knols wants to allow its
> users to publish Wikipedia-derivative content they should change their
> terms, IMHO.
>
> Massimiliano
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l[at]lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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chiesa.marco at gmail

Jul 30, 2008, 1:58 AM

Post #13 of 18 (2998 views)
Permalink
Re: Knol: on the bright side of things... [In reply to]

On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 9:47 AM, Massimiliano <m.lincetto[at]gmail.com> wrote:

> I still don't understand why we should reject the copyleft philosophy and
> change to an attribution license. I think that our mission is not only to
> provide free information and knowledge, but also to be sure that it will be
> kept free.
> I don't think that we should change our licensing policies in order to be
> published on Google Knol: why we should do it? If Knols wants to allow its
> users to publish Wikipedia-derivative content they should change their
> terms, IMHO.
>
>
I think giving up copyleft only to be reusable by a big guy like Knol would
sign the death of copyleft. It is a rather different situation compared to
using a small part of a Wikipedia article without having to release the
whole content under copyleft - particularly with the mammoth clause of
putting the whole letter of GFDL.
There are endless discussions about which licence between cc-by or
cc-by-sa is freer. I believe that at the moment there is little improvement
of the content of Wikipedia done outside Wikipedia, so whether this is
freely licensed (what would be imposed by -sa) or copyrighted is not that
relevant on a practical point of view. If people will create new content
with derivatives of Knol and will copyright it, than the point of copyleft
will be more clear (and people may debate whether copyleft is an obstacle to
the creation of knowledge).

Cruccone
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smolensk at eunet

Jul 30, 2008, 2:39 AM

Post #14 of 18 (2997 views)
Permalink
Re: Knol: on the bright side of things... [In reply to]

On Wednesday 30 July 2008 10:11:57 Ilario Valdelli wrote:
> If one editor doesn't license it's contribution in CC-BY the whole
> article cannot be licensed in CC-BY.

You are generally correct, but notice that not all edits are copyrightable, so
not all editors have a say.

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mgodwin at wikimedia

Jul 30, 2008, 5:28 AM

Post #15 of 18 (3007 views)
Permalink
Re: Knol: on the bright side of things... [In reply to]

Massimiliano writes:

> I still don't understand why we should reject the copyleft
> philosophy and
> change to an attribution license. I think that our mission is not
> only to
> provide free information and knowledge, but also to be sure that it
> will be
> kept free.
> I don't think that we should change our licensing policies in order
> to be
> published on Google Knol: why we should do it? If Knols wants to
> allow its
> users to publish Wikipedia-derivative content they should change their
> terms, IMHO.

FWIW, this is my view as well. I'm disappointed with Knol's licensing
options, which strike me as far too conservative.


--Mike




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brian.mcneil at wikinewsie

Jul 30, 2008, 6:18 AM

Post #16 of 18 (3007 views)
Permalink
Re: Knol: on the bright side of things... [In reply to]

Many of Google's ventures should probably be used as textbook examples of
how to make it online. Make a service that is simple, fast, and something
people will grow to rely on, then worry about monetising it without
offending people. With so many sites having flashing, dancing,
"punch-the-monkey" advertising their Adsense program was a welcome relief to
so many surfers. Admittedly, I can't remember the last time I clicked on an
adsense link, in fact its quite probable that it was one of the tiny
percentage that offend me and I wanted to waste the advertiser's money.

Knol isn't a blog, but it certainly isn't an encyclopedia. Virtually every
entry I've read has been a single person relating their experience(s) or
knowledge in a very informal and - in many cases - folksy manner. Links for
further reading or citeable sources are nonexistent; there is no policing of
image sourcing to prevent copyright violation, and you're looking at a page
that is decorated with advertising.

To perhaps be overly cynical:
Wikimedia works to freely share information and knowledge with as many
people as possible.
Google Knol works to monetise opinions and observations from any sap that
can be convinced to contribute.

Knol, the Geocities of the 21st century.


Brian McNeil

-----Original Message-----
From: foundation-l-bounces[at]lists.wikimedia.org
[mailto:foundation-l-bounces[at]lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Mike Godwin
Sent: 30 July 2008 14:29
To: foundation-l[at]lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Knol: on the bright side of things...


Massimiliano writes:

> I still don't understand why we should reject the copyleft
> philosophy and
> change to an attribution license. I think that our mission is not
> only to
> provide free information and knowledge, but also to be sure that it
> will be
> kept free.
> I don't think that we should change our licensing policies in order
> to be
> published on Google Knol: why we should do it? If Knols wants to
> allow its
> users to publish Wikipedia-derivative content they should change their
> terms, IMHO.

FWIW, this is my view as well. I'm disappointed with Knol's licensing
options, which strike me as far too conservative.


--Mike




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innocentkiller at gmail

Jul 30, 2008, 6:42 AM

Post #17 of 18 (2993 views)
Permalink
Re: Knol: on the bright side of things... [In reply to]

On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 9:18 AM, Brian McNeil
<brian.mcneil[at]wikinewsie.org> wrote:
> [snip] With so many sites having flashing, dancing,
> "punch-the-monkey" advertising their Adsense program was a welcome relief to
> so many surfers.

You mean punching the monkey doesn't give you a free iPod? What a ripoff.

-Chad

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george.herbert at gmail

Jul 30, 2008, 11:37 AM

Post #18 of 18 (2985 views)
Permalink
Re: Knol: on the bright side of things... [In reply to]

On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 6:18 AM, Brian McNeil
<brian.mcneil[at]wikinewsie.org> wrote:
> ...
> To perhaps be overly cynical:
> Wikimedia works to freely share information and knowledge with as many
> people as possible.
> Google Knol works to monetise opinions and observations from any sap that
> can be convinced to contribute.
>
> Knol, the Geocities of the 21st century.

I agree that Knol is currently less well focused and written than Wikipedia is.

But both in response to this and to the Copyleft / BY discussion -

Let me put forth the idea that experimentation in the "freely
available information" space is an extremely good thing.

Wikipedia took some time to get where it is today, where we have at
least nominally functional content accuracy, anti-vandalism, community
functions. These are all still clearly problem points but I think
that "it works" is clearly defensible.

We also may not be the ultimate best solution for creating or
distributing good freely available information.

A lot of the problems we do have are pretty core issues with how we
work and very hard to fix.

The question of whether making money off ads associated with freely
available information works for the better of the community at large
and content creators/editors is an open question. Wikipedia chose
very deliberately not to. Wikia does, but the company makes the
money. In Knol's case, writers/editors can make at least some of it.
Many of Wikipedia's mirror sites make money similarly to Wikia.

It may well be that there's potentially enough money in some
editing/writing that it can attract better writers and editors to help
create better, stronger information pages / Knols on popular topics.
That would probably benefit everyone.

The copyleft vs BY-like license dispute is also an open question. I
don't know of any serious study or historical analysis which has
indicated that open content, software, or anything else licensed under
GPL or copyleft terms has thrived more or been higher quality than BSD
or BY-like licenses. This is a philosophical answer more than a
practical one - it's fine to prefer one or the other, and I have no
problem with Wikipedia's GFDL / eventually CC-BY-SA-like stance. But
other licenses and license philosophies may work just as well, or
better, in the long term. There should be more effort put into
studying what the licenses' practical effects are. There should also
be more openness to other projects doing it differently, so that we
have test cases of the different options.


Knol as it stands now is ridiculously primitive in comparison to
Wikipedia now. But compared to Wikipedia a month into the project?

I don't know if it will ultimately thrive or wither on the vine.
Either way, it's an important experiment in alternate ways to create
and distribute information freely. We should be standing up and
clapping and wishing it the best. This is not a competition in the
"Wikipedia wins Knol loses" sense. We're here to create and
distribute free information - everyone wins if someone finds a better
way to do that.


--
-george william herbert
george.herbert[at]gmail.com

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