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phoebe.wiki at gmail

Jul 28, 2008, 7:47 PM

Post #1 of 8 (1328 views)
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thank you

For the people who were at Wikimania, there was a lengthy thank-you
session at the end where we got to applaud the volunteers and staff
who worked hard on the conference. But I would just like to reiterate
that, and give my personal thanks to:

* Mido, for leading the bid and planning (with all of the stress for
months on end that entails -- just ask any of the former organizers),
thereby giving many of us the chance to meet our Egyptian colleagues
and have a great conference

* Moushira -- I recognized and sympathized with the way you were
frantically running around during the conference :)

* Nada, Abdel, Ahmed, and lots and lots of other people I didn't meet
(and people I did meet but can't remember the names of); you guys
pulled it off!

* The BA staff generally, but especially Drs. Ismail Serageldin and
Noha Adly for being supportive of the conference, for putting the
considerable organizational weight of the BA behind it, and for
offering up your resources and space to us; I hope that we are able to
work together in the future, as two organizations with truly shared
goals.

* Delphine, as always, for tying up a thousand loose ends,
coordinating Foundation-side work, making reconnaissance trips to
Alexandria, and on and on :)

* The Foundation staff, especially Jay and Cary for getting little
things done like press and scholarships

* Lodewijk and Jakob for doing nearly all the organizational work on
the program, off-site and on; and all the program reviewers

But thanks especially to everyone who showed up, especially those who
took the risk of flying in from far away, and those who came from
nearby who didn't know much about Wikipedia and wanted to find out
more. It was great to see old friends and make new ones. I did not
work on the organization of this year's conference as much as in past
years, so I got the somewhat novel experience of going as an attendee
-- you get to attend sessions that way, it turns out :)

Here were some of my favorite parts of this year's conference:

* Learning more about the Arabic Wikipedia and the challenges it
faces; listening to a heated debate in the lightning talks about
whether educated Egyptians should contribute in Arabic or English
* Learning about the Bibliotheca Alexandrina's efforts to digitize
their Arabic-language collection, using OCR software they developed
in-house
* Meeting some of the librarians of the Bibliotheca Alexandria,
especially the children's librarians and my compatriots the reference
librarians; giving an ad-hoc talk to them about how Wikipedia works
* teaching a dozen Egyptian children how to make sockpuppets
* 75 piastre (15 US cents) falafel (especially hearing Mako wax
enthusiastic about the falafel all weekend)
* eating (delicious!) fish in a restaurant overlooking the
Mediterranean while talking about academic impressions of Wikipedia
* getting to applaud the third! Board Chair of the Foundation; it
really does feel like the organization is finally mature
* being in Egypt itself (despite being hot and sick): things like
getting in a taxi then waiting for the driver to fix his engine before
we could go; sitting out on the corniche in the evening along with
everyone else; finally realizing how small the Sphinx actually is
compared to the pyramids
* Singing "I Will Revise" at the final party

In my personal view, Wikimania shouldn't be thought of as just a
holiday, a chance to meet friends, a way to introduce the projects to
people in the local community, or a way to have organizational
business meetings, though of course it is all of those things.

Wikimania is above all a chance to start projects -- to take the
relationships that we've all built by meeting people we knew online
(and those we didn't) and make them stronger, and take the things
we've collectively learned -- about the Foundation, the place where
the conference was, and the various projects that the attendees
represented -- and then make those projects stronger. For me, the
success of this year's Wikimania will be measured for in large part
not just by the last couple of weeks but by what happens next --
whether the Foundation collaborates with the BA to host public-domain
Arabic texts, whether the Arabic-language media takes a stronger
interest in writing about Wikipedia, whether the many new people who
showed up start editing Wikipedia, and whether the rest of us who
attended have renewed inspiration to work on Wikimedia projects and
stay in touch with one another, to follow up on all those
conversations.

Finally, do keep the comments coming about Wikimania, good and bad; as
Patricio said, we do have another conference to work on and input is
great. Beyond that, we have the future of Wikimania to plan -- 2010
and beyond. There is going to be an effort to formally collect
feedback soon as well, and I hope all of you will participate. This
conference is ultimately a community effort, for the community; and
it's something that everyone interested should help shape.

-- Phoebe, who is already looking forward to next year

p.s. there's a whole lot of people that I didn't get the chance to say
goodbye to in person. By the last night, I had entirely lost my voice
and was basically unable to talk -- just at the moment when I most
wanted to talk to many of you. So I guess I'm making up for it by
writing this very long email :)

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wikipedia at verizon

Jul 28, 2008, 10:39 PM

Post #2 of 8 (1219 views)
Permalink

Re: thank you [In reply to]

phoebe ayers wrote:
> For the people who were at Wikimania, there was a lengthy thank-you
> session at the end where we got to applaud the volunteers and staff
> who worked hard on the conference. But I would just like to reiterate
> that, and give my personal thanks to:
>
> * Mido, for leading the bid and planning (with all of the stress for
> months on end that entails -- just ask any of the former organizers),
> thereby giving many of us the chance to meet our Egyptian colleagues
> and have a great conference
>
> * Moushira -- I recognized and sympathized with the way you were
> frantically running around during the conference :)
>
> * Nada, Abdel, Ahmed, and lots and lots of other people I didn't meet
> (and people I did meet but can't remember the names of); you guys
> pulled it off!
>
> * The BA staff generally, but especially Drs. Ismail Serageldin and
> Noha Adly for being supportive of the conference, for putting the
> considerable organizational weight of the BA behind it, and for
> offering up your resources and space to us; I hope that we are able to
> work together in the future, as two organizations with truly shared
> goals.
>
> * Delphine, as always, for tying up a thousand loose ends,
> coordinating Foundation-side work, making reconnaissance trips to
> Alexandria, and on and on :)
>
> * The Foundation staff, especially Jay and Cary for getting little
> things done like press and scholarships
>
> * Lodewijk and Jakob for doing nearly all the organizational work on
> the program, off-site and on; and all the program reviewers
>
> But thanks especially to everyone who showed up, especially those who
> took the risk of flying in from far away, and those who came from
> nearby who didn't know much about Wikipedia and wanted to find out
> more. It was great to see old friends and make new ones. I did not
> work on the organization of this year's conference as much as in past
> years, so I got the somewhat novel experience of going as an attendee
> -- you get to attend sessions that way, it turns out :)
>
Looks like Phoebe beat me to the punch. I was working on my own
thank-you note to write, after getting some help listing more of the
names that should be thanked, but I want to echo everything she said. My
participation seems to be moving in the opposite direction from hers -
compared to my previous Wikimania experience in Boston, I made it to
fewer sessions, not more - but I enjoyed all those I participated in and
got a taste of many different aspects of the Wikimedia community.

As Phoebe mentions, this is a bit similar to the appreciation expressed
in the closing ceremonies, but many people who will read this were not
there for that, and some of the people who deserve thanks were not
physically present either. It's a testament to our collaborative spirit
that even when some of the community gathers in person, it will be
backed by the work of others who aren't in attendance themselves. So I'd
like to again thank those Phoebe named and add a few more, although
there are inevitably some whose names I may not know to recognize their
contributions.

In addition to Mido, others from the planning team that developed the
Alexandria bid and had the vision and belief in Wikimedia's potential in
Egypt and the Arab world - thanks to Shipmaster (an example of someone
who was not at Wikimania, but helped put it together), Hamdy, Amr, and
the Egyptian Wikimedia community.

Along with Dr. Ismail Serageldin, Director of the Bibliotheca
Alexandrina, and Dr. Noha Adly - thanks to the staff of the ICT
department, especially Moushira, Monia, and Omneya. They were a great
help before, during, and after the conference.

For those who contributed their hard work throughout Wikimania, either
in preparation or the day-by-day activities - thanks to the amazing
local volunteers, especially Nada, Ashraf, Mohamed, and Ahmed. Thanks
also to the dedicated international volunteers, such as Jakob, Lodewijk,
Casey, Mark, Aphaia, and many more (including those who could not
attend), for things like working on the program committee, helping with
the website, and a variety of other places help was needed. Not to
mention the foundation staff: Delphine, Cary, and Jay working in
Alexandria, and Lisa and Erica for their help from San Francisco.

On behalf of the Wikimedia Foundation, I'd like to again thank all of
these people, along with the speakers and attendees who helped make
Wikimania a success. Without all of you, none of this would have been
possible. I look forward to another exciting Wikimania next year in
Buenos Aires.

--Michael Snow

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wikipedia at verizon

Jul 29, 2008, 9:57 AM

Post #3 of 8 (1219 views)
Permalink

Re: thank you [In reply to]

Michael Snow wrote:
> So I'd
> like to again thank those Phoebe named and add a few more, although
> there are inevitably some whose names I may not know to recognize their
> contributions.
>
See, I knew I could never get all the names. I'm adding one that I missed.
> In addition to Mido, others from the planning team that developed the
> Alexandria bid and had the vision and belief in Wikimedia's potential in
> Egypt and the Arab world - thanks to Shipmaster (an example of someone
> who was not at Wikimania, but helped put it together), Hamdy, Amr, and
> the Egyptian Wikimedia community.
>
> Along with Dr. Ismail Serageldin, Director of the Bibliotheca
> Alexandrina, and Dr. Noha Adly - thanks to the staff of the ICT
> department, especially Moushira, Monia, and Omneya. They were a great
> help before, during, and after the conference.
>
> For those who contributed their hard work throughout Wikimania, either
> in preparation or the day-by-day activities - thanks to the amazing
> local volunteers, especially Nada, Ashraf, Mohamed, and Ahmed.
I've been reminded that I overlooked Abdel Rahman, who wasn't on the
list the staff helped me put together. But since he's one of these I
know I met in person, I should have remembered. Thanks again to him and
anyone else we've failed to thank personally.

--Michael Snow

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moushirah at gmail

Jul 29, 2008, 10:22 AM

Post #4 of 8 (1218 views)
Permalink

Re: thank you [In reply to]

Phoebe,

That was very touching! I made sure to deliver your thank you note to my
colleagues as well. Everyone around is just glad that we ended up with a
nice Wikimania. Since we won the bid and we have been having doubts of
whether or not the community would feel comfortable in the formal BA, and if
the local community would really benefit, expand and grow much more mature
after Wikimania..
I suppose -and hope- that the first doubt went fine, and we are all still
working our best to ensure a real transformation in Arabic Wikimedia
projects..

It was certainly a pleasure meeting everyone who made it to Alex; especially
the ones whom we have had a year or more of email exchanges, it was just a
lovely reunion, as Wikimanians filled the place with energy and bright
insight.

Wishing Patricio and all 2009 team the very best of luck, hopefully we meet
in Buenos Aires..

Many Thanks Phoebe for your kind words..
Moushira

On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 5:47 AM, phoebe ayers <phoebe.wiki [at] gmail> wrote:

> For the people who were at Wikimania, there was a lengthy thank-you
> session at the end where we got to applaud the volunteers and staff
> who worked hard on the conference. But I would just like to reiterate
> that, and give my personal thanks to:
>
> * Mido, for leading the bid and planning (with all of the stress for
> months on end that entails -- just ask any of the former organizers),
> thereby giving many of us the chance to meet our Egyptian colleagues
> and have a great conference
>
> * Moushira -- I recognized and sympathized with the way you were
> frantically running around during the conference :)
>
> * Nada, Abdel, Ahmed, and lots and lots of other people I didn't meet
> (and people I did meet but can't remember the names of); you guys
> pulled it off!
>
> * The BA staff generally, but especially Drs. Ismail Serageldin and
> Noha Adly for being supportive of the conference, for putting the
> considerable organizational weight of the BA behind it, and for
> offering up your resources and space to us; I hope that we are able to
> work together in the future, as two organizations with truly shared
> goals.
>
> * Delphine, as always, for tying up a thousand loose ends,
> coordinating Foundation-side work, making reconnaissance trips to
> Alexandria, and on and on :)
>
> * The Foundation staff, especially Jay and Cary for getting little
> things done like press and scholarships
>
> * Lodewijk and Jakob for doing nearly all the organizational work on
> the program, off-site and on; and all the program reviewers
>
> But thanks especially to everyone who showed up, especially those who
> took the risk of flying in from far away, and those who came from
> nearby who didn't know much about Wikipedia and wanted to find out
> more. It was great to see old friends and make new ones. I did not
> work on the organization of this year's conference as much as in past
> years, so I got the somewhat novel experience of going as an attendee
> -- you get to attend sessions that way, it turns out :)
>
> Here were some of my favorite parts of this year's conference:
>
> * Learning more about the Arabic Wikipedia and the challenges it
> faces; listening to a heated debate in the lightning talks about
> whether educated Egyptians should contribute in Arabic or English
> * Learning about the Bibliotheca Alexandrina's efforts to digitize
> their Arabic-language collection, using OCR software they developed
> in-house
> * Meeting some of the librarians of the Bibliotheca Alexandria,
> especially the children's librarians and my compatriots the reference
> librarians; giving an ad-hoc talk to them about how Wikipedia works
> * teaching a dozen Egyptian children how to make sockpuppets
> * 75 piastre (15 US cents) falafel (especially hearing Mako wax
> enthusiastic about the falafel all weekend)
> * eating (delicious!) fish in a restaurant overlooking the
> Mediterranean while talking about academic impressions of Wikipedia
> * getting to applaud the third! Board Chair of the Foundation; it
> really does feel like the organization is finally mature
> * being in Egypt itself (despite being hot and sick): things like
> getting in a taxi then waiting for the driver to fix his engine before
> we could go; sitting out on the corniche in the evening along with
> everyone else; finally realizing how small the Sphinx actually is
> compared to the pyramids
> * Singing "I Will Revise" at the final party
>
> In my personal view, Wikimania shouldn't be thought of as just a
> holiday, a chance to meet friends, a way to introduce the projects to
> people in the local community, or a way to have organizational
> business meetings, though of course it is all of those things.
>
> Wikimania is above all a chance to start projects -- to take the
> relationships that we've all built by meeting people we knew online
> (and those we didn't) and make them stronger, and take the things
> we've collectively learned -- about the Foundation, the place where
> the conference was, and the various projects that the attendees
> represented -- and then make those projects stronger. For me, the
> success of this year's Wikimania will be measured for in large part
> not just by the last couple of weeks but by what happens next --
> whether the Foundation collaborates with the BA to host public-domain
> Arabic texts, whether the Arabic-language media takes a stronger
> interest in writing about Wikipedia, whether the many new people who
> showed up start editing Wikipedia, and whether the rest of us who
> attended have renewed inspiration to work on Wikimedia projects and
> stay in touch with one another, to follow up on all those
> conversations.
>
> Finally, do keep the comments coming about Wikimania, good and bad; as
> Patricio said, we do have another conference to work on and input is
> great. Beyond that, we have the future of Wikimania to plan -- 2010
> and beyond. There is going to be an effort to formally collect
> feedback soon as well, and I hope all of you will participate. This
> conference is ultimately a community effort, for the community; and
> it's something that everyone interested should help shape.
>
> -- Phoebe, who is already looking forward to next year
>
> p.s. there's a whole lot of people that I didn't get the chance to say
> goodbye to in person. By the last night, I had entirely lost my voice
> and was basically unable to talk -- just at the moment when I most
> wanted to talk to many of you. So I guess I'm making up for it by
> writing this very long email :)
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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moushirah at gmail

Jul 29, 2008, 10:23 AM

Post #5 of 8 (1218 views)
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Re: thank you [In reply to]

Dear Micheal,

Starting the day with a more than a couple of very overwhelmingly kind
emails is certainly a great experience, which I can not help but to thank
you back for it.

Let me second you in thanking the enthusiastic Egyptian bidding team;
Shipmaster was a great help to the initiative, and he continued his help
remotely with the program committee; we just regret that he couldn't make it
to Alex. Amr -The Egyptain- was also a positive contributor all the way.

I am quite speechless to all of the positive notes, and very grateful to all
the sincere thank you emails that we receive. It is our pleasure that we
were up to Wikimania, and we are looking forward to more significant change
in the Arabic Wikimedia projects..

Sending you fresh -although humid ;)- Alexandrian air breeze, hoping that we
meet again in Argentina!

Warmest Regards,
Moushira

Looks like Phoebe beat me to the punch. I was working on my own
> thank-you note to write, after getting some help listing more of the
> names that should be thanked, but I want to echo everything she said. My
> participation seems to be moving in the opposite direction from hers -
> compared to my previous Wikimania experience in Boston, I made it to
> fewer sessions, not more - but I enjoyed all those I participated in and
> got a taste of many different aspects of the Wikimedia community.
>
> As Phoebe mentions, this is a bit similar to the appreciation expressed
> in the closing ceremonies, but many people who will read this were not
> there for that, and some of the people who deserve thanks were not
> physically present either. It's a testament to our collaborative spirit
> that even when some of the community gathers in person, it will be
> backed by the work of others who aren't in attendance themselves. So I'd
> like to again thank those Phoebe named and add a few more, although
> there are inevitably some whose names I may not know to recognize their
> contributions.
>
> In addition to Mido, others from the planning team that developed the
> Alexandria bid and had the vision and belief in Wikimedia's potential in
> Egypt and the Arab world - thanks to Shipmaster (an example of someone
> who was not at Wikimania, but helped put it together), Hamdy, Amr, and
> the Egyptian Wikimedia community.
>
> Along with Dr. Ismail Serageldin, Director of the Bibliotheca
> Alexandrina, and Dr. Noha Adly - thanks to the staff of the ICT
> department, especially Moushira, Monia, and Omneya. They were a great
> help before, during, and after the conference.
>
> For those who contributed their hard work throughout Wikimania, either
> in preparation or the day-by-day activities - thanks to the amazing
> local volunteers, especially Nada, Ashraf, Mohamed, and Ahmed. Thanks
> also to the dedicated international volunteers, such as Jakob, Lodewijk,
> Casey, Mark, Aphaia, and many more (including those who could not
> attend), for things like working on the program committee, helping with
> the website, and a variety of other places help was needed. Not to
> mention the foundation staff: Delphine, Cary, and Jay working in
> Alexandria, and Lisa and Erica for their help from San Francisco.
>
> On behalf of the Wikimedia Foundation, I'd like to again thank all of
> these people, along with the speakers and attendees who helped make
> Wikimania a success. Without all of you, none of this would have been
> possible. I look forward to another exciting Wikimania next year in
> Buenos Aires.
>
> --Michael Snow
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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erik at wikimedia

Jul 29, 2008, 10:46 AM

Post #6 of 8 (1221 views)
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Re: thank you [In reply to]

2008/7/28 phoebe ayers <phoebe.wiki [at] gmail>:
> For the people who were at Wikimania, there was a lengthy thank-you
> session at the end where we got to applaud the volunteers and staff
> who worked hard on the conference.

Well put, Phoebe. Sadly, I was too sick to attend (and applaud at) the
closing ceremony, so I also want to take the opportunity to thank
everyone who made the conference (and the party!) happen. :-) The
Library is an amazing venue, and I very much hope that we can work
together in the future on wiki workshops and events.

So, BIG THANKS to everyone, and I'm hugely looking forward to Buenos Aires. :-)

All best,

Erik
--
Erik M�ller
Deputy Director, Wikimedia Foundation

Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate

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sgardner at wikimedia

Jul 29, 2008, 10:49 AM

Post #7 of 8 (1221 views)
Permalink

Re: thank you [In reply to]

I would like to add my thanks as well :-)

I don't want to single out particular individuals, because Michael's
list was pretty comprehensive, and also because I know that sometimes
the hardest work is the least visible. In general though, I will say
this: staging a conference is really hard. It's stressful, there's tons
to do, and it's mostly thankless. The worst part is that the organizers
frequently can't relax and enjoy themselves, because they are too busy
fixing countless small problems and attending to last-minute details.

So congratulations to everyone who contributed to a very successful
Wikimania. It was an impressive conference - and particularly impressive
that, much of the time, you made it seem easy :-)

I very much enjoyed myself: thank you.
Sue

Michael Snow wrote:
> Michael Snow wrote:
>> So I'd
>> like to again thank those Phoebe named and add a few more, although
>> there are inevitably some whose names I may not know to recognize their
>> contributions.
>>
> See, I knew I could never get all the names. I'm adding one that I missed.
>> In addition to Mido, others from the planning team that developed the
>> Alexandria bid and had the vision and belief in Wikimedia's potential in
>> Egypt and the Arab world - thanks to Shipmaster (an example of someone
>> who was not at Wikimania, but helped put it together), Hamdy, Amr, and
>> the Egyptian Wikimedia community.
>>
>> Along with Dr. Ismail Serageldin, Director of the Bibliotheca
>> Alexandrina, and Dr. Noha Adly - thanks to the staff of the ICT
>> department, especially Moushira, Monia, and Omneya. They were a great
>> help before, during, and after the conference.
>>
>> For those who contributed their hard work throughout Wikimania, either
>> in preparation or the day-by-day activities - thanks to the amazing
>> local volunteers, especially Nada, Ashraf, Mohamed, and Ahmed.
> I've been reminded that I overlooked Abdel Rahman, who wasn't on the
> list the staff helped me put together. But since he's one of these I
> know I met in person, I should have remembered. Thanks again to him and
> anyone else we've failed to thank personally.
>
> --Michael Snow
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

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jwalsh at wikimedia

Jul 29, 2008, 3:59 PM

Post #8 of 8 (1215 views)
Permalink

Re: thank you [In reply to]

I second that - the very good list thank yous have been offered, but
really congratulations are also in order.

I've had my nose in the press coverage - almost all of which has been
enthusiastic and positive. There were so many encouraging, positive
voices at Wikimania. Everyone (participants, attendees, organizers)
was prepared to ask questions and work through any language challenges
so we could understand each other and figure out what more could be
done for the projects. It was incredibly inspiring.

Working among this incredible group, and with our great partners at
the BA, was eye-opening, mind-expanding, invigorating and a real
honor. Thanks to everyone who made it out and made it happen!

--
Jay Walsh
Head of Communications
WikimediaFoundation.org
+1 (415) 839 6885 x 609

On Jul 29, 2008, at 10:49 AM, Sue Gardner wrote:

> I would like to add my thanks as well :-)
>
> I don't want to single out particular individuals, because Michael's
> list was pretty comprehensive, and also because I know that sometimes
> the hardest work is the least visible. In general though, I will say
> this: staging a conference is really hard. It's stressful, there's
> tons
> to do, and it's mostly thankless. The worst part is that the
> organizers
> frequently can't relax and enjoy themselves, because they are too busy
> fixing countless small problems and attending to last-minute details.
>
> So congratulations to everyone who contributed to a very successful
> Wikimania. It was an impressive conference - and particularly
> impressive
> that, much of the time, you made it seem easy :-)
>
> I very much enjoyed myself: thank you.
> Sue
>
>
> Michael Snow wrote:
>> Michael Snow wrote:
>>> So I'd
>>> like to again thank those Phoebe named and add a few more, although
>>> there are inevitably some whose names I may not know to recognize
>>> their
>>> contributions.
>>>
>> See, I knew I could never get all the names. I'm adding one that I
>> missed.
>>> In addition to Mido, others from the planning team that developed
>>> the
>>> Alexandria bid and had the vision and belief in Wikimedia's
>>> potential in
>>> Egypt and the Arab world - thanks to Shipmaster (an example of
>>> someone
>>> who was not at Wikimania, but helped put it together), Hamdy, Amr,
>>> and
>>> the Egyptian Wikimedia community.
>>>
>>> Along with Dr. Ismail Serageldin, Director of the Bibliotheca
>>> Alexandrina, and Dr. Noha Adly - thanks to the staff of the ICT
>>> department, especially Moushira, Monia, and Omneya. They were a
>>> great
>>> help before, during, and after the conference.
>>>
>>> For those who contributed their hard work throughout Wikimania,
>>> either
>>> in preparation or the day-by-day activities - thanks to the amazing
>>> local volunteers, especially Nada, Ashraf, Mohamed, and Ahmed.
>> I've been reminded that I overlooked Abdel Rahman, who wasn't on the
>> list the staff helped me put together. But since he's one of these I
>> know I met in person, I should have remembered. Thanks again to him
>> and
>> anyone else we've failed to thank personally.
>>
>> --Michael Snow
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> foundation-l [at] lists
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/
>> foundation-l
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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