Mailing List Archive: Wikipedia: Foundation

identity disclosure and access to OTRS/Checkuser

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pn007a2145 at blueyonder

Jun 29, 2008, 4:27 PM

Post #26 of 43 (708 views)
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Re: identity disclosure and access to OTRS/Checkuser [In reply to]

Thomas Dalton wrote:
>>> Oh my. Serious legal consequences for forging such a thing. I'm
>>> sure the foundation has a method to vet these things.
>>
>> How could they do that? They might be able to tell if the passport is
>> real or not, but there's no way they can tell whether or not it's
>> actually yours.

I can't speak for US passports, or indeed any other than UK, but it's normal
for to provide some sort of declaration from a doctor, lawyer or priest who
can certify that they've known the applicant for a reasonable length of
time. Not completely foolproof, of course, if you've seen "The Day of the
Jackal", but good enough for normal purposes. I find it hard to believe
anyone would go to such lengths to gain access to OTRS, however. Checkuser
may be an entirely different proposition in some of the contexts we have on
en:Wikipedia, but again, I think it's such a remote proposition as to be
practically discountable.

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nawrich at gmail

Jun 29, 2008, 4:28 PM

Post #27 of 43 (713 views)
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Re: identity disclosure and access to OTRS/Checkuser [In reply to]

One question, 23 very similar responses. Curious... can we assume the
question is adequately answered now?

Nathan
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thomas.dalton at gmail

Jun 29, 2008, 4:29 PM

Post #28 of 43 (714 views)
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Re: identity disclosure and access to OTRS/Checkuser [In reply to]

2008/6/30 Phil Nash <pn007a2145 [at] blueyonder>:
> Thomas Dalton wrote:
>>>> Oh my. Serious legal consequences for forging such a thing. I'm
>>>> sure the foundation has a method to vet these things.
>>>
>>> How could they do that? They might be able to tell if the passport is
>>> real or not, but there's no way they can tell whether or not it's
>>> actually yours.
>
> I can't speak for US passports, or indeed any other than UK, but it's normal
> for to provide some sort of declaration from a doctor, lawyer or priest who
> can certify that they've known the applicant for a reasonable length of
> time. Not completely foolproof, of course, if you've seen "The Day of the
> Jackal", but good enough for normal purposes. I find it hard to believe
> anyone would go to such lengths to gain access to OTRS, however. Checkuser
> may be an entirely different proposition in some of the contexts we have on
> en:Wikipedia, but again, I think it's such a remote proposition as to be
> practically discountable.

Oh, yes, there are plenty of methods for the passport issuer to
confirm the identity of an applicant before issuing the passport, but
that doesn't help the WMF. All I have to do I borrow someone else's
passport (a perfectly genuine one) and claim that's me and there's no
way the WMF could know any different.

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scream at datascreamer

Jun 29, 2008, 4:31 PM

Post #29 of 43 (707 views)
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Re: identity disclosure and access to OTRS/Checkuser [In reply to]

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Thomas Dalton wrote:
>> Really, there is no way? So if I take a photo of myself, and my
>> passport, with the weather channel (with current date and time) behind
>> us, there is no way? There are plenty of methods.
>
> While I've never had to verify my identity with the foundation, my
> understanding is that they *don't* ask for a picture taken in front of
> the weather channel along with the passport. Given the information
> they request, there is no way for them to verify the passport is of
> the right person.
>
> Even if you do take a picture in front of the weather channel, how do
> you prove it's you?
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

You could prove its me in front of the weather channel, because I would
be holding my passport up to my face.

Best,
Jon
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thomas.dalton at gmail

Jun 29, 2008, 4:33 PM

Post #30 of 43 (700 views)
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Re: identity disclosure and access to OTRS/Checkuser [In reply to]

> You could prove its me in front of the weather channel, because I would
> be holding my passport up to my face.

No, you could prove it's the passport owner in front of the weather
channel. The point is that you can't prove you are the passport owner.

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scream at datascreamer

Jun 29, 2008, 4:38 PM

Post #31 of 43 (709 views)
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Re: identity disclosure and access to OTRS/Checkuser [In reply to]

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Thomas Dalton wrote:
>> You could prove its me in front of the weather channel, because I would
>> be holding my passport up to my face.
>
> No, you could prove it's the passport owner in front of the weather
> channel. The point is that you can't prove you are the passport owner.
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

You are correct. I have no answer for this.

Best,
Jon
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brian.mcneil at wikinewsie

Jun 29, 2008, 4:42 PM

Post #32 of 43 (710 views)
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Re: identity disclosure and access to OTRS/Checkuser [In reply to]

There is an answer for this... Confiscate Thomas' tinfoil.

Brian McNeil

-----Original Message-----
From: foundation-l-bounces [at] lists
[mailto:foundation-l-bounces [at] lists] On Behalf Of Jon
Sent: 30 June 2008 01:39
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] identity disclosure and access to OTRS/Checkuser

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Thomas Dalton wrote:
>> You could prove its me in front of the weather channel, because I would
>> be holding my passport up to my face.
>
> No, you could prove it's the passport owner in front of the weather
> channel. The point is that you can't prove you are the passport owner.
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

You are correct. I have no answer for this.

Best,
Jon
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=7o4H
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thomas.dalton at gmail

Jun 29, 2008, 4:46 PM

Post #33 of 43 (707 views)
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Re: identity disclosure and access to OTRS/Checkuser [In reply to]

2008/6/30 Brian McNeil <brian.mcneil [at] wikinewsie>:
> There is an answer for this... Confiscate Thomas' tinfoil.

The tinfoil protects me from *government* conspiracies. You need more
than a hat to protect against rogue Wikimedians!

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mike.lifeguard at gmail

Jun 29, 2008, 6:00 PM

Post #34 of 43 (714 views)
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Re: identity disclosure and access to OTRS/Checkuser [In reply to]

Oh, yes, I think so!
-Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: Nathan [mailto:nawrich [at] gmail]
Sent: June 29, 2008 8:29 PM
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] identity disclosure and access to OTRS/Checkuser

One question, 23 very similar responses. Curious... can we assume the
question is adequately answered now?

Nathan

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szilagyi at gmail

Jun 29, 2008, 7:27 PM

Post #35 of 43 (704 views)
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Re: identity disclosure and access to OTRS/Checkuser [In reply to]

Or lock away all the photoshop software for gaming Weather Channel and have
volunteers submit DNA samples in a little cup, in person in San Fran, and
hand deliver your samples directly to Sue and Mike...

Yeah, I'd say this was all answered. :) Someone if they really wanted could
pool one over on the WMF in theory, but no more than a prospective employee
could with a bogus state ID or tax ID number. But this is the WMF, not the
NSA.

Joe

On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 4:42 PM, Brian McNeil <brian.mcneil [at] wikinewsie>
wrote:

> There is an answer for this... Confiscate Thomas' tinfoil.
>
>
> Brian McNeil
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: foundation-l-bounces [at] lists
> [mailto:foundation-l-bounces [at] lists] On Behalf Of Jon
> Sent: 30 June 2008 01:39
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] identity disclosure and access to
> OTRS/Checkuser
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Thomas Dalton wrote:
> >> You could prove its me in front of the weather channel, because I would
> >> be holding my passport up to my face.
> >
> > No, you could prove it's the passport owner in front of the weather
> > channel. The point is that you can't prove you are the passport owner.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l [at] lists
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
> You are correct. I have no answer for this.
>
> Best,
> Jon
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>
> iD8DBQFIaB0I6+ro8Pm1AtURAtzbAJ9tFqv3Dt2IHIu+NIVDYcdOYMbrkgCfTKft
> tM12+au9YLhTJFs3nSo9md0=
> =7o4H
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
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>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
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saintonge at telus

Jun 30, 2008, 9:09 AM

Post #36 of 43 (676 views)
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Re: identity disclosure and access to OTRS/Checkuser [In reply to]

Thomas Dalton wrote:
> 2008/6/30 Brian McNeil:
>
>> There is an answer for this... Confiscate Thomas' tinfoil.
>>
> The tinfoil protects me from *government* conspiracies. You need more
> than a hat to protect against rogue Wikimedians!

This suggests that the average rogue Wikimedian is smarter than a
government. Not an unlikely prospect. :-)

Ec

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saintonge at telus

Jun 30, 2008, 9:32 AM

Post #37 of 43 (676 views)
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Re: identity disclosure and access to OTRS/Checkuser [In reply to]

Jon wrote:
> Thomas Dalton wrote:
>
>>> Oh my. Serious legal consequences for forging such a thing. I'm sure
>>> the foundation has a method to vet these things.
>>>
>> How could they do that? They might be able to tell if the passport is
>> real or not, but there's no way they can tell whether or not it's
>> actually yours.
>>
> Really, there is no way? So if I take a photo of myself, and my
> passport, with the weather channel (with current date and time) behind
> us, there is no way? There are plenty of methods.
>
>
There is a matter of the size ratio between your face and your passport
picture; that would require a high resolution photo to get the two
together. There are characteristics of a valid passport that only show
up under UV light so you might want to do a UV scan ... if you know how
to find a UV scanner.

This thread looks so much like a series of solutions in search of a
problem. It all presumes that someone will think of these schemes
before submitting anything deceptive. One can never find an absolutely
safe and secure way of doing these things, only increasingly expensive,
complex and intrusive countermeasures for events of diminishing likelihood.

Ec

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thomas.dalton at gmail

Jun 30, 2008, 9:39 AM

Post #38 of 43 (681 views)
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Re: identity disclosure and access to OTRS/Checkuser [In reply to]

2008/6/30 Ray Saintonge <saintonge [at] telus>:
> Thomas Dalton wrote:
>> 2008/6/30 Brian McNeil:
>>
>>> There is an answer for this... Confiscate Thomas' tinfoil.
>>>
>> The tinfoil protects me from *government* conspiracies. You need more
>> than a hat to protect against rogue Wikimedians!
>
> This suggests that the average rogue Wikimedian is smarter than a
> government. Not an unlikely prospect. :-)

Well, yeah, that was the joke...

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george.herbert at gmail

Jun 30, 2008, 1:45 PM

Post #39 of 43 (680 views)
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Re: identity disclosure and access to OTRS/Checkuser [In reply to]

On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 9:39 AM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton [at] gmail> wrote:
> 2008/6/30 Ray Saintonge <saintonge [at] telus>:
>> Thomas Dalton wrote:
>>> 2008/6/30 Brian McNeil:
>>>
>>>> There is an answer for this... Confiscate Thomas' tinfoil.
>>>>
>>> The tinfoil protects me from *government* conspiracies. You need more
>>> than a hat to protect against rogue Wikimedians!
>>
>> This suggests that the average rogue Wikimedian is smarter than a
>> government. Not an unlikely prospect. :-)
>
> Well, yeah, that was the joke...

In an era where the Japanese mandated cameras and automatic
age-detection software on cigarette vending machines to avoid sales to
minors, and those cameras accept a magazine photo of an adult face
held up to the camera as legitimate, it never pays to be too
pessimistic about "security measures".

--
-george william herbert
george.herbert [at] gmail

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node.ue at gmail

Jun 30, 2008, 2:26 PM

Post #40 of 43 (679 views)
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Re: identity disclosure and access to OTRS/Checkuser [In reply to]

sounds funny. source?

On 30/06/2008, George Herbert <george.herbert [at] gmail> wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 9:39 AM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton [at] gmail>
> wrote:
>> 2008/6/30 Ray Saintonge <saintonge [at] telus>:
>>> Thomas Dalton wrote:
>>>> 2008/6/30 Brian McNeil:
>>>>
>>>>> There is an answer for this... Confiscate Thomas' tinfoil.
>>>>>
>>>> The tinfoil protects me from *government* conspiracies. You need more
>>>> than a hat to protect against rogue Wikimedians!
>>>
>>> This suggests that the average rogue Wikimedian is smarter than a
>>> government. Not an unlikely prospect. :-)
>>
>> Well, yeah, that was the joke...
>
> In an era where the Japanese mandated cameras and automatic
> age-detection software on cigarette vending machines to avoid sales to
> minors, and those cameras accept a magazine photo of an adult face
> held up to the camera as legitimate, it never pays to be too
> pessimistic about "security measures".
>
>
> --
> -george william herbert
> george.herbert [at] gmail
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

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wiki.ral315 at gmail

Jun 30, 2008, 3:10 PM

Post #41 of 43 (670 views)
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Re: identity disclosure and access to OTRS/Checkuser [In reply to]

On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 5:26 PM, Mark Williamson <node.ue [at] gmail> wrote:

> sounds funny. source?
>

Slashdot: http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/06/29/1745256

--
[[User:Ral315]]
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saintonge at telus

Jun 30, 2008, 4:04 PM

Post #42 of 43 (682 views)
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Re: identity disclosure and access to OTRS/Checkuser [In reply to]

Ryan wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 5:26 PM, Mark Williamson <node.ue [at] gmail> wrote:
>
>> sounds funny. source?
>>
> Slashdot: http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/06/29/1745256
>
>
Great! Maybe after the machines have figured out that a photo is a two
dimensional object the kids can start wearing Hallowe'en face masks. :-)

Ec

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pn007a2145 at blueyonder

Jun 30, 2008, 4:18 PM

Post #43 of 43 (680 views)
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Re: identity disclosure and access to OTRS/Checkuser [In reply to]

Ray Saintonge wrote:
>> Ryan wrote:
>>> On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 5:26 PM, Mark Williamson
>>> <node.ue [at] gmail> wrote:
>>>
>>>> sounds funny. source?
>>>>
>>> Slashdot: http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/06/29/1745256
>>>
>>>
>> Great! Maybe after the machines have figured out that a photo is a
>> two dimensional object the kids can start wearing Hallowe'en face
>> masks. :-)

Then the machine operators wonder why they're selling so many cigarettes to
George W. Bush, and why is he spending so much time in Japan anyway.......

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